tv Charlie Rose PBS June 26, 2015 12:00am-1:01am PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin with the supreme court decision on the affordable care act also known as obamacare. joining me is adam liptac the supreme court correspondent for "the new york times". >> there are more minor challenges lurking in the lower lower courts but having survived the supreme court twice unscathed, it really looks like this is a law that as the president might say is getting woven into the fabric of american society and will be very very hard to pull out wholesale through litigation. is it possible that some later congress might do something? that's possiblement but i don't think the supreme court will take on this issue again. i think from the supreme court's perspective this does uphold once and for all the affordable care act. >> rose: we continue with a look at war through the eyes
of a war correspondent, joining me ben anderson correspondent for vice on hbo. >> it's not thrilling at all. and often feels like an -- now i get on a plane to go somewhere, i'm thinking what is going to happen this time am and i hope it's nothing too bad. it's not exciting but in afghanistan so many lives were lost in the fight for afghanistan, so many promises were made about what would happen and why it was worth it. that i do feel an obligation now to keep going back and show what actually happened as a result of all that of off that. >> rose: we conclude this evening with a preview of an extraordinary opportunity i had for the guided tour of the hermitage museum with the director mikhail piotrovsky. >> it's like one pressure after another. >> this solve a problem. this is why you must have exhibitions all over the world because you must show all these things and also to show them a little bit apart. because we only have ten in
each room. >> you can see more of the hermitage tomorrow night on charley rose the week seen on most of the television stations every friday night. next adam liptac ben anderson and a look at the hermitage when we continue. once funding for charlie rose is provided by american express. additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. week for the united states supreme court. the court affirmed in a 6-3 ruling today that nationwide
subsidies call for in the affordable care act are legal. chief justice john roberts wrote in the majority opinion, congress passed at fordable care ago to improve health insurance markets, not to destroy them. he was joined by the court's four liberal justices ruth bader ginsburg, breyer, so theo mayor, and kagan anthony kennedy often cull called the swing vote three voted against it scalia, thomas and alito. the decision makes-- marks a major victory for the obama administration's on health care. the president spoke at the white house earlier today. >> today after more than 50 votes in congress to repeal or weaken this law after a presidential election based in part on preserving or repealing this law after multiple challenges to this law before the supreme court the affordable care act is here to stay. >> rose: . >> my greatest hope is that rather than keep refighting
battles that have been settled again and again and again, i can work with republicans and democrats to move forward. let's join together. make health care in america even better. >> rose: while public opinion of the law has improved since the rollout of health care.gov, it remains a polarizing issue in american politics. joining me now from washington, the supreme court correspondent for "the new york times". i'm pleased to have him here. let me begin by the significance of this does it in a sense put aside do you think, legal challenges to the affordable care act? >> you know charlie, there are more minor challenges lurking in the letter lower courts. but having survived the supreme court twice unscathed, it really looks like this is a law that as the president might say is gettingwoven into the fabric of american society. and will be very very hard to pull out wol sale through
litigation. is it possible that some later congress might do something, that's possible. but i don't think the supreme court will take on this issue again. i think from the supreme court's perspective, this does uphold once and for all the affordable care ago. >> even though he had done it earlier, were you surprised by john roberts? >> well we knew the four liberal justices as you said would vote in favor of the administration. there were two votes in play justice kennedy and the chief justice and the administration was hoping for one and must be delighted to get two it must be particularly delighted that it was the chief justice who this time leading a unified and lopsided majority really spoke in ringing terms about the law quite different from three years ago when his opinion was fractured joined in whole by no other justice, and at a grudging
quality to it. so we seem to have a shift from the chief justice. >> when you look at the issue itself explain it to us that there were certain states who did not have exchanges and so therefore it was argued that the subsidies did not apply. >> there was a phrase in the law. and if you look at this phrase in the law all by itself you might well think that only states that have established their own exchanges, these days typically democratically run states, democratic party run states are entitled to exchanges. the phrase is that the exchanges must be established by the state. what the chief justice said well that's so if you bear down on those four words that is probably the better argument. but you have to put those four words in the context of a sprawling 900 page law. and what it meant to achieve. and he said that it would frustrate the purposes of the law which has many interlocking provisions, to deny subsidies and maybe
two-thirds of the states. to poor and middle class people who need them in order to buy health insurance. jz. >> rose: and justice scalia in his dissent called that thinking quite absurd. >> right justice scalia is a text allist. and he thinks the words make sense as written. he thinks if congress wanted to write different words it would have. and he thinks in the wake of a decision that these words seem to mean what they people congress could pass a new law. but it's not for the court to save congress from its mistakes. >> rose: so any opinion in this historic decision i assume it's historic is it not? >> oh, i would say so. i mean the technical legal statutory construction argument may not have lasting presidential res fans but the symbolic resonance for the second time, this center piece.
obama legislative legacy being upheld by a supreme court thought to be hostile to president obama is supersignificant. >> rose: scalia also said that the law should be called scott ution care for supreme court of the unit-- scotus care for the supreme court of the united states. >> he really thinks that his colleague and sometimes friend the chief justice has gone out of his way to twist first constitutional law and next statutory interpretation law to rescue a law that justice scalia seems to have no sympathy for at all. and you know, there's some truth in that. president obama while a senator voted against the nomination of chief justice john roberts. but the chief justice has returned that favor in a very, i guess a gracious way by twice affirming the affordable care ago. >> rose: also the court this week is going to probably this week or beginning of next week announce what it thinks about same sex
marriage. will that be a historic decision as well? >> you know that is probably a once in a decade decision. that's the culmination of a civil rights struggle. most of the signs point to a decision in favor of same sex marriage in all 50 states. i think we'll get that decision probably more likely monday than friday. but one of those two days. and that will cap a term at the supreme court that has, across a whole range of issues, turned out to be surprisingly liberal. so you have a court dominated by five republican appointees generally conservative, but this term at least they have time after time delivered liberal decisions. >> rose: and why is that? >> it may be just the selection of cases. it may be a little bit the mood of the times. you can connect up the health care case and same-sex marriage case assuming it comes down as most people think it does as an attempt to unit the nation.
as an attempt not to have a patchwork of states where there are subsidies and not subsidies. states where there is same-sex marriage or not it may be the supreme court attempting to have one united states. >> rose: was any great constitutional case decided here in this term? >> yeah, the biggest case of the term in constitutional separation of powers terms was one that maybe didn't get the attention it deserved. it was called zibatovski and involved a question of whether congress could tell the president something about the status of jerusalem, whether jerusalem is the capitol of israel. >> rose: yes, yes. >> an here again here again the court makes what a lot of people think is a liberal decision saying no the president wins. the president's allowed to decide. it comes up in the context of passports. congress passes a law saying that if you are an american and is you have a child born in jerusalem, if you want you can have instead of jerusalem israel putting the
passport. both president obama and his predecessor president bush said that interfered with the president's power to run foreign affairs with the president's power to recognize sovereign nations and the supreme court there too agreed. >> like to be any retirements in the next two years? >> unless someone tells-- health goes staggeringly an surprisingly south, i don't see it. i think the next president may have two three supreme court appointments which really puts should put some pressure on people's thinking in the presidential campaign am but i don't see any justice voluntarily going, unless there is a real health issue. i don't think one of the more liberal justices would risk supreme court nomination this late in the president's term and obviously one of the more conservative justice was rather have a-- appoint his successor. >> rose: when you look at the court today and look at
the way it operates, is there a judgement that john roberts has been a good chief justice? >> i think he's respected by his peers in terms of his administering the court. he's very capable and very charming. and there have been chief justices who played favorites and weren't completely straight with their colleagues. he's not one of those. but at the same time the truth is this court is often divided and often along an ideaological line not reflected in today's big decision but in a second one today where justice kennedy as you said the swing justice joins either the four liberals or four conservatives. and i think the chief justice has been working to do away with that image and is pleased when the press reports that this is a court that's not about politics but about legal judgements. >> rose: when history is written of the supreme court is it likely to say that o'connor and kennedy because they were quote
swing justices exercised enormous power in terms of the outcome and what the court said was constitutional? >> absolutely right charlie. it turns out that the median justice, the justice at the court's idea logical center has completely outsized power. and you see that in supreme court arguments where the moment justice kennedy perks up with a question everybody including his colleagues become exceptionally attentive because they know that it's kennedy's vote that will decide many, many cases. >> rose: adam, thank you again, as always. a remarkable thing we have watched in the court in two separate instances which people thought there might be a real challenge to the affordable care act, not so much this time. but were surprised especially by the involvement of the chief justice. it makes the supreme court a very interesting place to cover. >> very good to be here charlie. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us. >> rose: the yoornted states
is drawing its longest running war to an end american troops are scheduled to withdraw from afghanistan by the end of to 16. the white house announced in march that it will keep nearly 10,000 u.s. forces throughout this year. meanwhile taliban fighters have regained ground in their latest spring offensive. last year the country suffered its highest number of civilian casualties since the war began. ben anderson is a correspondent, for vice on hbo. it has covered afghanistan for over 7 years. i'm pleased to have him at the table for the first time. welcome. an honor to have you here. lets's talk about afghanistan today. you have been in iraq and i want to talk about that, and other places. give us a sense of where what's the moment? what's the action on the ground? who's winning, who's losing? what is happening,? how strong are the security forces on the part of the afghan government, et cetera. >> i had thought on previous visits it was a bloody
stalemate since u.s. combat troops withdrew. i now think in some areas the taliban appear to have the upper hand and the afghan security forces look like they're not on the point of complete failure but the numbers just don't add up. the numbers aren't sustainable. 28% attrition rate through dezrtion affection or casualty. they're suffering the highest casualty rates since the war began as well. so i think this summer we'll see the taliban retake several areas in their heartland but they almost retook a major city recently very far from-- . >> rose: how about kabul. >> i don't think that will happen but many av began friends think there is a good chance that could happen or certainly fear it happening. and those who have a bit of money have an exit plan ready in case that does happen. and their opinion i think is far more important than mine. they're very afraid. >> rose: in anbar state. >> yes. and there are attacks in kabul regularly more and more regularly now than there ever were. it is a city almost in complete lockdown.
>> rose: so how did it get to this point? was it the afghan at any time have a central government? was it they didn't have troops? was it too much corruption? was it all of the above? what happen. >> if you go back to the beginning, removing the taliban was a fantastic achievement and fantastic tant for the country. i think the rush to iraq played a major part in what we're now seeing in afghanistan. the worst war lord from afghanistan's recent history were put back in power. the very people whose behavior lead to the taliban sweeping to power so easily in the first place because people were so sick of the corruption and violence of the war lords they thought the taliban would be good muslims who provided security and justice, by putting those people back in power, that planted the seeds for the insurgency we saw later on. and the nation building effort wasn't really taken seriously until 2009 to 10 and by then i think it was far too late. the policy then which president obama adopted was counterinsurgency. clear holds build transport. i was with many u.s. marines
who cleared entire areas of taliban and did tray very good job doing that. there was never anything to transfer to. the afghan security forces the afghan government were never anywhere near ready to take over and dot job on their own. >> rose: could they have been ready? >> it's a very long-term project. if the u.s. marines can't defeat the taliban with all the technology and resources they have, what chance did the afghan security sources with almost no technology and very few resources have. the afghan security forces are still funded completely by foreign aid. the government can't pay any of the bill for their security forces. >> rose: but could the marines if we had doubled that and used every means that we had to wipe out the taliban t would have still been impossible? >> i go back to what i said before. i think by the time they took it seriously it was too late. i think you need to go back earlier and say in 2001 when the taliban were bombed out of power. >> rose: swept into pakistan. >> yeah, then a deal could have been done. the kind of deal that's
being sought now but of course the taliban are in a much stronger position now than they were then. had you had done a deal then. and i think almost everybody, including the taliban realize that things had to change. realized that hosting al qaeda, for example was a major mistake. then there would have been a chance to do a serious nation building project. i think that's when the mistake was made. >> rose: any connection between the taliban and isis oral quitea? >> i'm following the reports closely. it looks to me like the so-called isis in afghanistan so far are disgruntled taliban members looking to get some attention or respect or instill fear in people and they're printing flags and pledging allegiance to isisment i wouldn't say isis itself has a presence in afghanistan yet. and the taliban actually wrote a very polite letter to al baghdadi recently say ug have no place in afghanistan. don't get in the way of what we're trying to do. if you do, there will be trouble. so i don't think that's a serious threat yet.
>> rose: are the tlb willing to negotiate? >> it's very mixed signals. i mean they are in a strange position where one of their main preconditions was the u.s. has to be out which is now pretty of the case. some people are negotiating. some aren't. as you said at the beginning, the summer offensive or spring offensive has already started and is already killing a large number of people. so some elements are talking. plenty of other elements are still fighting. which of course might just strengthen the negotiations. >> rose: as you know the argument is made here often especially in the political environment that the fact that the united states left no troop behind in iraq be contributed to the rise of isis. now there is a-- to hane how troops we lead after 2016. what's the best thing to do? >> i mean i think if you leave a vacuum that vacuum is filled by other players. in iraq it was filled by isis iran the vacuum right now in afghanistan a large
vacuum. i think the taliban are filling that now and will fill it soon. 10,000 troops isn't that much. you know, for every infant ree troop or every soldier out really doing something there are between six or eight or nine in support of that person. so if you've got 10,000 there. you've got a fairly small fraction of those actively doing something. the best thing to do now that the security forces need a lot of training and support and equipment, it's a very long-term project. an extra 12 months or extra 18 months i don't think will achieve the goals we're seeking. i think one of the big misunderstandings in afghanistan was there was a large group of people who wanted things to change radically. and by removing the taliban that would happen very easily. and what we're now seeing is that our allies actually have very few ideal logical differences with the taliban on many issues. in some cases-- . >> rose: abdullah abdullah. >> i mean ode ode afghans. and in some areas i've seen the afghan police doing
things i mean the most hideous crimes imaginable child rape child murder as well as spectacular levels of corruption. >> rose: by the afghan security forces. >> yeah, mostly the police and there is a militia force now that the u.s. pays for which is expanding now because things are deteriorating so badly. so you know trying to change an entire culture in the space of a few area years from our size especially when most of that most of the population doesn't want those changes, i think was a pipe dream. >> rose: some argue that we made a mistake in leaving afghanistan or forget being afghanistan after the russians were kicked out. that that was the beginning of a series of mistakes. >> and if you present what happened then to obama now i-- he probably looks like a dream scenario. three years after the russians left and then you know, the u.s. not withdrew but stopped engaging. the government stayed in power for three years then collapsed and it was all-out
civil war. i think you know you could almost describe what's happening in afghanistan today as civil war. it's 450, i think roughly soldiers being killed every month. casualties higher than at any point since the war began and that's within 18 months of the withdraw. >> rose: did you corruption go away with karzai? >> absolutely not. the corruption went up and up. the opium is the best example of that. apart from a few years here and there, opium production has gone up every year and a third of the economy. >> rose: you said if you want to see a success story look at the hoppium today in afghanistan. >> yeah but i mean if we went out with the counternarcotics police chief and the police chief himself and we were walking through, you know poppy field after poppy field, we went back to the police base for lunch and within the police base there was a poppy field. and these poppies aren't going to get destroyed. and everyone is involved in the trade. everybody. >> rose: and a lot of money involved. >> yeah, a third of the
afghan economy is based on the opium trade. it's big money. and for some people it's their only source of income as well. >> rose: so what is the lesson of all of this for the united states? >> it's interesting. i was in iraq before i went to afghanistan and we traveled to the various front lines of isis and the last week of the trip we went to kurdist stan. and going from kbaing dad to irbil is like going from baghdad to paris kurdi stan is struggling a lit bit us because ever a dispute and baghdad isn't releasing the money. but it's thriving. the lesson there is we're very good at removing the taliban or saddam hussein or whoever it is. real change after that has to come from within. >> you have to have a plan. >> yeah. that definitely helps as well. but support the right people support trustworthy people who have the country's interests at heart and who are streetwise as well. people who know who they can deal with and who not to deal with. we absolutely do do that. >> rose: we never have those kinds of relationships and bonds and committedments. >> no.
i've got some friends who work for ngos in iraq and afghanistan. the best example i can think of is emergency he operated a number of hostiles in afghanistan during the taliban era and is operating them now for a tinny fraction of the money that we spend daley in afghanistan. you know if you are interested in nation building, i think long run in the long run that is how you reduce extremism in countries like this. providing a better way of life education health care everything else. then supporting people like that either foreigners or locals. >> rose: and in the absence of doing that is how the taliban rises, how isis rose in iraq you know. >> yes. it's painful to say but the taliban are doing a better job of providing security and justice in quite a few areas of afghanistan. >> i think you have said that they do almost no child no child raping that you suggested the afghan security forces were doing. >> rose: less.
>> there is some the after began police force are notorious for abducting and raping young boys, they are called chai boys servants in the day and sex slaves at night it is very common. >> rose: you see that some movies have been made about that. >> i did a documentary. i can't repeat the language he used. he used the worst language imaginable to justify his men raping young boys. he basically said they have to have sex with something. what do you expect them to do. but in much worse language than that. hideous language.- >> rose: iraq,. >> you were in iraq. did you see salomani. >> we were with the one of the shiite millas and i was sitting outside the mosque. >> rose: one of the militias that were trouble for us when we were in iran. >> yeah, plenty of american blood on their hands for sure. and they're now being hated by u.s. air strikes and maybe the guys to take ramadi very soon. but i was sitting outside
the mosque. we were waiting for the operation to retake tikrit to start and sul manny literally walks in front of me. >> gray hair. >> yeah, just eight or nine guys. >> rose: nothing. >> we were a fair distance from the front line but i instinctively hid my face because i knew if he saw a werner he would kick us out straight array-- away. >> he found out we were there and did kick us out. i heard he had found out we were there to cover this operation. and was very angry about it so our-- said leave now. we left and he later said it wouldn't surprise me if he just got his men to stick a bullet in your head as soon as the operation started and tell everybody that they were killed by isis during the fighting. i mean i have no idea if that is true or not. that was our-- so we had to leave and didn't get to cover the tikrit operation. >> rose: and talk about the fighting in iraq with respect to the battle against isis. you have got iraqi militias is he directing those i
iraqi millas as you suggested. >> yes. >> rose: iranian directed shi'a mills directed by iran. >> it was create by iran and commanded by iran. absolutely. and we interviewed former ambassador ryan crocker for the documentary we were paging about iraq and they both said there is almost no difference between the will see identity militias and isis. ice is might video some their-- . >> rose: there is no difference between them. >> in terms of the crimes they commit and the way they behave. >> rose: in terms of beheading. >> yeah. i mean you know, you can go on youtube. >> rose: most of the i assume that the shi'a militias are directing all of their hos till inities mostly towards sunnies as well as isis. >> and that's the big fear is that in the areas where they clear out isis they then take retribute against the sunni population. >> rose: and that's a problem. >> yes. >> under the maliki government. >> and i think one of the biggest mistakes of the iraq war was allowing maliki to
have a i president that question to ambassador crocker and ali kadar irx and he said he was really the only man that could have done that job at that point. but once he had a record of governing along very sectarian lines that shouldn't have been a-- actuale allow which got more votes in the election. so most voted for a secular coalition maliki was given a secretary term. i think that directly lead to the rise of isis. >> rose: but fighting isis now are shi'a militias and you say if they drive them out they are often as bad as isis was in terms of beheadings, in terms of pillage, in terms of violence against women. >> you can spend half an hour on youtube and see all kinds of videos of exactly the same crimes that isis is video. they don't video it in the same way. >> rose: from a military stand point if the argument is made did we bring shi'a militia in here you have a hard choice. but what choice do you make if you need them to drive out isis? >> the question the big
question i left iraq with was, i think isis could actually be defeated in iraq. the kurds are doing well against them. the anbar awakening tribes might do well against them. the shiite militias are beating them. the big question is had happens next. it looks like it is set up for another round of sectarian war just like we saw before. and you know that was tens of thousands of lives lost. people being killed just because they happen to come across the wrong check point and get asked a few questions about whether they are a shiite and sunni and they were killed. >> rose: didn't have the right answer. >> when the brigade is lead by a man name halli almiri wikileaks released cable said his preferred method of killing was an electric drill that is who might be in charge if isis is defeated there. >> rose: the interesting thing to me about where this goes is as you suggest what happens after. same thing is true in syria. if assad goes, what do you have. >> yeah. >> rose: i don't know how
often you have been to syria but you've got the same issue. what follow as sad whether he goes peacefully or somebody shoots him or what happens, is it moderate forces or some combination of isis, al-nusra or somebody else. >> i think assad has played a master game in making the opposition into such monsters that the west that everyone now is thinking maybe assad is better after all. >> rose: that seems to be changing, it seems to me, from afar. are you there. >> i haven't been in syria for a long time. i haven't of covered the recent war in syria. but you know there are some people who argue that dealing with people like saudi arabia with assad and trying to encourage them to slowly reform is better than violent overthrow and what happens next which is the rise of isis or shi'a militias. >> rose: there is some question, i was in russia recently and there is some question as to how deep and strong their support is of assad. the russia wants to maintain their own interests. as the russian leader said to me, we do not want to see isis in damascus.
>> and they want to harm western interests as well. >> rose: so in syria and in iraq what is the long-term outlet-- outlook in the battle against isis? >> i mean i think-- . >> rose: from iraq to syria to libya? >> at the minute i think we're seeing a conflict which spreads to yemen as well and a conflict which is almost a power-play between iran and saudi arabia which could go on for years and years. >> i mean ambassador crocker said to me that isis now have thousands of fighters with u.s. or european passports. don't even need a visa. can just get on a plane. and that's the capability that al qaeda could only have dreamed of so there seems to be an attitude if they want to have their religious civil war and kill each other let them. it's not our business to go in there an stop it. my question to that would be what happens next. the most vicious ruthless violent group comes out on top and i'm fairly sure they will set their sights
towards us at some point. >> my question to you is what real leverage do we have? >> i think this is a long-term legacy of iraq and afghanistan. >> rose: diminishing relevance. >> and assad knows that we will not intervene because the last two interventions were such disasters that you know, i mean -- >> that explains obama's reticence. >> and the public support. even if he wanted to i don't think he could send in large numbers of grounds troops. what really depresses me is i think most people on the right and the left would probably agree that we should have intervened in rwanda now. i think distrust about intervention is so bad. if that happened again tomorrow, most people would not support intervening. >> rose: even though everybody from the secretary-general down bill clinton, have all said we made a mistake in not intervening. >> yeah. >> i think even the perfect case for intervention like rwanda happened again tomorrow, i'm not sure there would be any-- for us to intervene which is the real tragedy of iraq and afghanistan not to mention
the hundreds of thousands of lives that were lost in those countries as well. >> rose: what drew you to all this? to being a reporter covering wars? >> i grew up in a small town in england. you know, i sort of looked at what my life was supposed to be. and was very depressed about what it was supposed to be. and when i was 17 i read an article about the indonesian invasion of east timor and how britain was supplying the weapons. >> rose: you were 17. >> i think i was 17 maybe 16. i was so outraged i couldn't believe that the british government was selling weapons to this country who were slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians. and i think it is the first time in my life i ever thought there is something useful i can do here. a reporter went to east timor an reported on this and was actually killed in a gruesome way. but i remember admiring him so much for going out there. and thinking that that is what i want to do. and that's-- it's something useful i can contribute in some way. i mean in 20 odd years on
i'm not sure how useful it's august been. but i still can't think of anything more useful. >> rose: you have been doing it for 20 years. so it makes you about 37 38. >> i just turned 40. it took me awhile to enter it but i have been doing it just under 20. >> rose: so you went to work first for the bbc. >> my first film was six months undercover and for another and then the bbc. >> rose: what was that about. >> a texas family of undertakers were buying out family funeral home keeping the family name above the door so it looked very trustworthy but were running it like a major corporation so training people to upsale everything yundz pay and undertraining staff who looked after the bodies. so 2 was a horrible business but a very profitable business. we exposed-- . >> rose: for the bbc. >> another channel and the bbc offered me a job because of that film. channel 4 i did that for. >> rose: how did you get to vice. >> i met shane eight or nine years ago. and he gave this speech to
about 230 people-- 20 people over breakfast around he was a hung percent convinced that everyone in the media says about young people not care being international current affairs is wrong. they just haven't got a place to go. >> rose: for the coverage. >> yeah. and he was-- the kind of coverage that they seek. >> yeah, i have been here living in america now 18 months and i do think the foreign coverage is awful. i mean it's often people in studios here talking about it. or if it's people in location, it's on a hotel roof. many many miles away. it is a fairly simple model of just getting there and actually showing what's happening. not us telling you what is happening, actually capturing on film. >> rose: when i hear you say that i think about cbs news and what i know, "60 minutes" has had correspondent in studios talking. and go head. >> i mean i have seen some of the coverage and it's-- i
mean it does seem like as a whole you know one foreign story gets covered at a time that might be a missing plane story for example. if the one big foreign story happens to be the missing plane than syria and afghanistan. >> you say there is a quote of foreign stories. >> a quota of one. >> yeah. >> i can't remember the last time afghanistan was seriously covered by anyone else here. and yet there are still u.s. troops left. >> so the attraction of vice and shane's selling to you was you'll get a chance to do in the field to wherever you want to go to tell stories up close and show us things we will not see otherwise. >> yeah. and i was always told by everybody i worked for that young people don't care about current affairs. i never believed that to be true. and he's proved it not to be true. i mean in the last 18 months i've been to sudan pakistan iraq afghanistan yemen and many other places. i've never even heard of anyone getting that much
support for, you know complex. >> rose: but what is it you think beyond the fact that you are covering the material and you're in the field, what is it about the style of vice that you think is attractive. and is it different? >> i think we don't lecture about what is happening. i think we just show what is happening. you know, i think it really is as simple as that. you know i think-- they were applicable a few years ago. >> rose: sensationalistic, to whatever -- >> the correspondents were so excited about the fact that they were there. and that's what the film was really about. isn't it amazing that i am here. but a lot has changed since then. and now i really think well there is a massive commitment just to show these very important foreign stories. and to say you really need to know what is going on. >> whether it's north korea or nigeria or wherever it is. >> and even places you know i did a story in sudan
awhile ago. that's not going to get good viewing figures. that's not going to get much attention. but it's a very important story and they backed me to do it anyway. i don't know many places where someone like me could get that kind of backing. and it is working. many, many people are watching and enjoying it and coming back for more. >> now do you feel like this you've done, you've had the kind of experience you've wanted to have. that you have done the stories you wanted to do and you want to simply do more of them or has all of this influenced and given you a vision of a role you want to play in terms of the kind of reporting you're capable of doing. >> that's been another a great thing. i did a film about the afghan interpreter was can't get visas and who are now under threat from the taliban because they are seen as collaborators. i was organizing the transcripts of all the interviews and said this would make an amazing ebook. hi a quick conversation with someone, an ebook appeared a few weeks later. if you have a good story. >> an ebook you did. >> yeah t was mostly
actually the interpreters own words. but you know i organized the stories into a digestable format and an ebook appeared a few weeks later. >> this is a problem in iraq and afghanistan. >> big problem in both countries, yeah. and you know. >> rose: especially after the withdrawal from iraq. >> yeah, there were thousands of interpreters who say their lives are now under threat. and they're having to wait literally years, five six. we've heard cases of seven or eight years to get visas this is after -- >> instead of immediately. >> generals with them on the front line for a 12 month tour have said i can completely vouch for this guy. this guy would be a benefit to america and provides no-- sorry t doesn't present a security risk. and they still can't get the visa. >> i will show a couple of things of you in the field talking to children in local militias. and you will see the kind of reporting that engages him. here it is. >> the government in iraq really are-- these boys age
10 12 and 14 fight to defend their village. >> can you describe what happened recently the taliban were very close. >> . >> from you fighting as well when they attacked? ness due find it hard to be brave when they're fighting >> well you're much tougher than me, good luck. >> this is a big one. >> along with their entire family, are part of a u.s. created force called the afghan local police. >> rose: is it men and women? male and female? >> mostly men. their commander is actually
their grandmother. >> rose: i know. tell the story about what the grandmother did, if it's the same grandmother, who when someone snatched two of her grandchildren, perhaps. >> two of those boys. >> rose: she then went out and kidnapped. >> several taliban family members and they arranged an exchange. you want a deal now. >> yeah, yeah. and this is the scene of the biggest u.s. operation since the entire war began. 30,000 troops, billions of dollars, an that's how they are sorting out problems now. and the afghan government are security forces played no part in resolving that crisis. >> what draws you to it? is it just the story or is it the risk of life? is it what? >> people think people say oh you must be an adrenaline junkie. it is not thrilling at all. and often feels like an-- now i get on a plane to go somewhere i'm thinking what is going to happen this time. an i hope it's nothing tooed
ba. it's not exciting. but you know in afghanistan so many lives were lost in the fight for afghanistan so many promises were made about what would happen and why it was worth it. that i do feel an obligation now to keep going back and show what actually happened as a result of all that. of all that. i don't know what that actually achieved. maybe it makes politicians here and in london maybe it makes it slightly harder to lie about progress there. i don't know. beyond that i don't know. but you know i feel like if i'm physically capable then these are the stories i should be doing. >> how large is your team? >> just me and-- you and a camera person. >> that's it. as small as possible. >> you like it because it's what? you can travel faster? >> you can travel faster. if i join a group of rebels or a group of u.s. marines i can say look we're not going to slow you down. we can keep up with you. we won't get in the way. and the ideal is that they forget we're there. and we film what would have happened had we not have been there. and if there are just two of
you you can spending weeks rather than a day or two. >> i saw a thing on youtube i just went to youtube and looked you up and see what kind of things are you doing beyond what we have here. and there you were walking in the middle of a road and i'm thinking about landmines and you were talking about them too. i mean that would be the scariest thing in the world for me. >> if it is the same clip there were seven ieds right underneath us. >> yeah. >> and i've got -- >> you went dancing through the middle of the road and somebody found something you said don't touch it. >> well, all self sen of them were set off. someone was watching us. >> rose: on a phone. >> this was slightly different. the wire was attached to the bomb. and a taferpd a battery to the wire and they all went off and they have indicators so they put strange piles of rocks here and there. when people walk past those rocks they connect the wire and battery and the ieds went off. i promised my mother i wouldn't be ever again right at the front of the patrol. and i think the bomb maker
was waiting for more marines to come up behind us. so they came up behind us. i moved forward a bit and then all seven ieds went off. and somehow the marines who were on that corner were between the ieds. and they were deaf and blind for a good few weeks but none of them were actually on top the ieds so they weren't killed or maimed. but i've got one friend who on his first trip to afghanistan. >> rose: reporter or soldier. >> a photographer stepped on an ied and lost batt legs and an arm. and that's terrifying. and you know it's-- you ask all the time s it worth that is it worth losing limbs for. i would say no, i would say it's worth risking it but not worth that kind of injury. and you know i have been, i have had some close shaves. i've been lucky so far. >> rose: what is the closest shave? >> that was very close. i have been in the middle of fire fights in afghanistan that lasted seven eight
hours n one case where the inside of me was hit. >> rose: is war the only thing that really interested you. >> no, i have done some environmental stories recently. i've done a couple of films about slave labor in due buy recently. -- dubai recently. i think conflict is-- what i'm good at is the right phrase but i can cope there. i can function, i can perform well. and i can get young men with weapons to open up to me and trust me. and maybe even enjoy having me around. >> rose: where wouldn't you go? >> i have never said no to a job. there is nowhere i wouldn't go. >> rose: so if isis said come, we'll let you photograph anything you want to, would you say -- >> that's a very good point. that was actually offered a little while ago. we did a fill well isis where a syrian palestinian filmmaker had a relationship with those guys well before they became isis. at one point there was talk of us going in there with a correspondent. >> rose: you going in there. >> which would have been me yeah. >> rose: and? >> and they promised a letter guaranteeing our safety. but actually my problem wasn't the guarantee of
safety. my problem was morally i had a very big problem with going with them, you know. >> rose: hanging out with people who are doing this. >> who take pleasure in beheading journalists and ngo workers and civilians. and journalistically, i couldn't really see a good reason to go. we had done the film already. we had shown the nature of these guys. we know what they are capable of and what they want to do. i just didn't think there was anything to gain from doing that film. and i think you know morally i would have felt very compromised by making that film. because of course it would have been completely on their terms. you only would have seen what you wanted you to see. >> rose: and they could have changed their mind midway. >> yeah, yeah, an older german reporter want in and spent a couple of week ofs with them an was treated well and you know returned safely. he had his son as his cameraman. so i think it would have been physically possible to do. but i couldn't brick myself to not be able to challenge people who are taking such pleasure in killing people including colleagues. >> rose: are they the worse?
>> they're the worst i've seen in my career. i can't think of a modern equivalent. maybe the rebels of liberia or sierra leone, i think khmer rouge is the closest example. and it really changed my thinking. >> rose: they almost had an ideology, the khmer rouge. >> and isis seems to be more of a-- everyone sees the video, they are disgution. i always used to think that every conflict had a political solution. and isis has made me question that completely. what would the negotiation of isis be. what would a deal look look like. >> rose: it's very tempting because i asked a leading american security official in the armed services. what would it take. and he said, well to defeat isis in iraq we would need 100,000 troops. so then the question becomes, is it so-- so suppose you make that kind of commitment. what are you stepping into? >> yeah. >> yeah. >> and what you again what comes nextment because you would be fighting along side-- who might be just as bad.
>> but i mean i would assume that they have no problem-- they prefer they not be there and they certainly say there is no cooperation except working through the iraqis to figure out where the air strikes should be. are there more cooperation between the shi'a militias directed by suliman and americans who are in charge of air strikes? >> i think there will be on ramadi. because it in tikrit the shi'a militias couldn't do take it on their own. >> they sort of failed to trach it on their own. the air strike didn't start in the beginning. >> i think that now provided a model for what levels of cooperation there will be in the future. but you have to remember, i described why some afghans welcomed the tlb in the first place. those conditions absolutely existed in iraq where many iraqis, we spoke to them welcomed isis to begin with because for sunni life in iraq under maliki was such hell. you know that's what you need to stop happening. an that's much more long-term. >> rose: it's a political question.
>> yes. >> pet raiaus talks about that, they have to get the politics right. >> as you say have a plan b. >> there is also this -- -- lummar omar is in pakistan, what is the city he's supposed to be in. >> has anybody talked to him? is he alive. >> i think he's alive. i don't think-- . >> rose: he is directing things. >> he's directing some things. the taliban now is every time we mention the word taliban we can't say in brackets that actually means about 30 or 40 different insurgent groups. the taliban of today say very different than the taliban of 2001 200 -- i'm sure there are some who are loyal to mullah omar. i'm sure most are just fighting to defend their own back garden and aren't taking orders directly from pakistan. >> rose: take a look at this. you with the local forces. here it is
>> they talk to each other they were within 400 meters everywhere we want. and that man who is one of the few very good man is now dead. he was killed i think three days, two or three days after we left by a a massive ied an those bases are now in the hands of the taliban. and that's the second largest city in hellman province. >> you commented on a piece that i did here at this table with marines who had been at fallujah. and in talking about them what was it in a sense that they said that you thought reflected more and better more accurately the feeling of people on the ground? >> i mean i think it's-- people assume when you have done a lot of in beds where you have gone in
and covered operations with marines you are somehow pro war and that they are somehow pro war. the interview you did with them shows better than anything else i have seen on television here. >> they know better than anybody else how badly conceived these two wars were and they know better than anybody else that a lot of their fighting and dying that happened there has been for nothing. and in some cases has been worse than for nothing. because it's been to introduce someone into power who was so bad that it just lead to another round of civil war and another round of sectarian car. and i don't see veterans talking on television like that very often and they really did here. and you could just tell that the knowledge they shared was just so hard earned. you know the most hard earned knowledge possible. >> if you see your brothers killed when you go in to take a place like fallujah and then you leave and then you read a year later it
was all the work you did and all the lives lost have simply been upended again. >> yeah. >> you don't want to say die in vain but you do want to say the commitment they make and the lives that were lost and the bravery required all of a sudden it's back where it was. >> yeah. >> it's got to be hard. >> i think that's probably one. biggest contributors to the ptsd issues that we read so much about. >> post traumatic stress disorder. >> they died doing a brilliant job for them and their-- the friends around them. but i think they knew even back then that the overall goal of eventually handing over to the afghan government or the iraqi security forces that was the major flaw in the plan and where the overall plan was always going to fail. >> does the conflict in ukraine interest you? beyond reading about it? >> beyond reading about it someone else knows that very well and covers it in detail so i leave that to him.
>> rose: thank you for coming, pleasure to you have on the program. >> honor to be here, thank you very much. >> rose: back in a moment stay with us. >> i i'm always saying to people for the first time-- it is something which definitely is interesting. >> rose: what is incredible about this is we go from one room to another from leonardo to-- it's like one treasure after another. >> well, this is wonderful. and a problem because you must have exhibitions all over the world because you want to show all these things and also to show a little bit apart because when you have ten-- in one room it's difficult to appreciate each one of them. >> this is picasso. >> rose: so here we are. >> here we are are. >> rose: how good is your picasso collection. >> it's very good mat ease is the best. mat eases like this don't exist-- matisse, only in moskow. >> rose: this is picasso.
>> this is the best picasso we have. >> rose: sure. >> and this is like on the level of-- . >> rose: yes, yes. >> this is one of the most important, this matisse collection in the hermitage is one of the best in the worlds. >> rose: look at this, look at thises. this is the morocco the famous madame matuse this is a family portrait which looks very much like a-- miniature. this is the fantastic, to me the best the best one. >> rose: but you have something that on loan to the new museum of louis vuitton. >> yes we have the dance of matitisse us amic and dance, very famous. it is very fragilend the dance was given for louis vuitton, we have agreements with them for certain
exchange and cooperation. >> i love the color. >> so this is the gift. >> the gift of american. a big collection of american art applied american art of masterpieces checked by-- helen -- an american and given to us from the american foundation of hermitage. so it is a whole room of masterpieces of american decorative art. a big addition to our collection and big gesture of trust. >> rose: so the hermitage is not only building it's acquiring. >> yes, we're acquiring. we have a lot of friends. >> rose: for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us yen line at pbs.org and charlierose.com
captioning sponsored by rose communications >> funding for charlie rose is provided by american express. >> additional funding provided by: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services world wide. >> on tomorrow's pbs newshour president obama delivered the eulogy at the couth scar linea pastor and state senator killed in the church shooting.
this is nightly business report with tyler mathisen and sue herera. >> landmark ruling. the highest court in the land keeps the president's controvel affordable care act in tact. just crush it nike reports a blowout quarter. will the dow component and the largest footwear maker set the tone for trading tomorrow? deal. greek talks breakdown without an agreement, as the deadline to get some all that and more for "nightly business report." >> good evening and welcome, the supreme co hands a big win to president obama and a cutting deneat to opponents of his signatur health care law.