tv Firing Line With Margaret Hoover PBS September 24, 2022 5:30am-6:01am PDT
>> fmeorr head of stestat of a a keylliny latin america, is week on "ngfiri le.in" >> ibues natard!es [ crd owcheengri ] whehen wasle ected as pderesintf ocolombia, one atof linme arica's oldest democracies, conservative politician ániv duque márquez wathyoe ungest persoern ev elecd teto ld eathe uncotry. cr[ owd anchts "qudue!" ] promised increased security and into w t whear on drugs and receivednt iernational ai fseor his handling of the pandemic. despite making university free for nearly all colombians, fheacedas msivero ptests for his econ pomicolieics. >> i've always perceived myself as a radical centrist, and centrist means u veha to keep thean balce. n >> ia amdratic shift ttohe left, colombia j hasuscht osen a rm merarxist grrilla as its l newear.de .. .y prometo aebl pulo... ha>> wt esdo this mean r focolombia's c tloseies with the ud nitestesat,
e thwar on drugs, mocracy in teghe rion? what does formreer psintde of lombia iván e duqumáuerqz saw?y no >> "firing line with margaret hoover" made possibn le ipa brty... and by... coatrpore ndfuing is provided by... >> presidevánt in qudue márquez, welcome tori "fingin le." >> thaounk y smuo ch, margaret. it g's are hatonor r me to be here. you served olas coma'bis esident for yfourea,rs until juugst aust, when you wereve prend teby the nstitution frurom nng inagain. you have beescn deridbe o onebserver asod a mere atconservative. youcur sceorss, gustavo petro, ais former marxguist erllria
who atedtend t fheuneral ofugcho ávez d anhas re-estabedlish tsie between colo ambianden vezuela. s victory gaolve comabi the firsftt leisgot vernment ints i history. y whhas there been this picolitalhi sft? >> i t, hinkinhe t last electioner, the snwa't a clear adarversy atth would have the armes ntand the pacity to dilyrect deaeft him. and avwe he utonderstand that when people o go tthbae llots. >> t'shere ain pk tide sweeping thgie reon- -bolivia, peru, ilche, perhaps bl razicome ocbetor. w ydoou understand thidese eogilocal trends? >>el il, think, marg,aret thise suin latin america is t nothatht ere's a debate betwleeen ftnd a right. it aeb date between right and wrong. d -- >>sn i't that a ma otterf rspepective? >>nd s iay this because pulism and dogemague -ry- they sell hoeat brd datoy, but 'rtheye cuinbating hunger
for toowmorr. anthd at has been pathe ttner many countries. but ywhenouee s policies that want toer intvene e thforces of thrke maetn o artifici callyonoltrled prices, ll, atet deriorates anony ecomy. ani d think peopleay tod e armore aware that in tiofmes hh iginflation, people donan't wt gtoo into crazy poli.tics an td ifhe lireaders who are protg incrazy politieccs bause they're ngtryi tgeo nerate a falsnte seimt enof progress, atwh they're goio ng tbe incungbati tinhe next 2 toea 3 yrs aabn solute damage of e onecomy as it sh wouldork. d atth's the issue twithheef lt in latin acameri. d eyth want to be lapopur. anthd e way they wtoant b pupolar is by eminbracg lipocies atat, the end of dathe y, destalroy l e thvalues citapalism. >>ouav he been called, in american media, the riwight-ngop pulist... w>>ell, you know -- .ev..en while you're multaneously criticizinftg le-wg inpopulism. wsohat gives? >>l, wel mgaarret, i've always eipercvemyd self as a raldica
cent, ristanced ntrist means that you hav ke toeethp e balance. so you hav de toefden a etmark enocomy, but at s theamtie me, you have to defthend e ghrits of workers. u veha to defend touhe snd environmentalil poci.es yohau ve to keep the possibility ofav hing traditioennal ergy but,th at e mesa time, reblnewae erengy. e thosbanclaes have to bpte ke for the good of sociy.et a>>ccording to wothe rlbad nk, comb iias one of thehe ricst onnatis linatin america, but ito alshaons e of thste mo uquneal income stributions hein t wldor. what ce an bdo tneo tackle e thinequality? >> welarl, mgat,re i worked fomor alst1 1years delevopment policies in wastohingn,.c d., at the inter-amer dicanevopelment bank. and iwhen bamece president, i clhad eathr at we had ttohink of econ gomicroh,wt but at the stiame mein, having a strongeria socl fesaty net. wead h to face a pmiandec.
and i k thinth wate did mething thatve is ryow perful, the largeshet, t mt osambitious socialet safy tne evreer cat bedy a government. an'rd wee soal able, in 2021, reach the hstighe enocomic growth in oustr hiory and bee abltoed ruce unemplntoyme a sndomething atak mes me feel vprery ou--d e thlowest infortymali reat that colomhabia s erev reached in tabhe lorar mket. >> you're t.righ mbcoloiaid d make a remalerkab economicov receriny 2021. grew by 10% after ggstruli dnguring 2020 because of p theanmidec. another g thinth hatappened comolbia is massive and deadroly ptes,st cluding protrseste w dhoied the hands of police. in retrospect, can you give us some context for those protests and the lessons you learned from that? >> it behas ensa, dly, a pattern over tashe lt urfo decades. thall e espridents in thste la ur, they havd e hatoac fe
thisua sitti.on what is insttereing is that we hmaave dele car thatce peafuprl otest cis aonitstutional riinght comolbia. the erhas to be enemforcent, t that enforntceme h taso be soan hd in hand th human-rigprhts ottiecon. at w'shy i said that anyng wrodogin of an indialvidu mbeemr a onyf the forces nolyt on wl ilbe investigated, but bwille iatrled. and avwe he nedo that and we did th wathen we were ovin gerennmt. >>re psident petropa camigdne on ami prose rtoedistribute thweal. has unveilepld a an sthatomese timates say would raise s taxeonhe t wealthy by 200%. make the casate th tt haapproach n't work. w>>ell, margareout, y cnoant distribute whealt ouif y sp tocreating wealth. you tneedo veha an environment ithats sibuness-friendly, because if s youtart raintag xation in an irrnaatiol y waby, you knteow, llg ininvestors
that the gy'reoi tngo have p hayigher capitainl gas than r theesoft latin america, eyth'll leave. you know, inbrgingnv iesto trso our coieuntrs visery difficult, takes nga lo te,im but frea tkingheoum t can take jseust cos.nd you cannot ridistbu wteealth if a youreot n capable ofer pmanently geraneting new wealth. and i think 'sthat setomhing btoe understood. and lot ok ath yisear. i gleftovnmerent in august, and by tonhe mthf oaugust, the economy grwas owg inabove 8%. >> so whrey wen'cot lombians tiiesfd? >>ec bause i think at e thendma, rgaret, ivwe le tinimes whe erpopulism is emorefftiecve sotimemes in the ntiarrave, becauseye th g peteople angry. and that capan hpen al ison the unitedte stas, anthd at can happe en inure,op because pozalariti ions taking place evheerywren ithe world. and wht at ido iess, it destroys these sence of demcyocra.
anthd at's why i as lwaysay atth democracy ikes li hlteah. en we have it, we take orit f gntraed. wh wfee el it's threedaten, anwe wt dtoesperately rerecov. enay mbe it's too .late so thawht's y hweave to defend the osvalues of deacmocry. >> i'de liktosk a you out the war ruon dgs, which you suteppord. colombia conestinu tpro oduce moren thaha olff the world's coincae. more t90han % cofocaine seediz in the unittaed stes comes cfromolbioma. whasat w yr ouapproach ttoackling thisbl proem? >> h iad a holistic prchoa, margaret. when ium assed office, i reedceiv aexn ponentially grinowg space iofllegal cropsco in loiamb. so the f tirsthi ing did was to stop txphe eontienal growth. soand meinthg that was also very importa- nt -wett aacked the ad ts ofhear ctels, d,ct aually, we caedptur e thmost dangeroruus dg rdlo tinhe world, "oeltoni,"
who was adextrited tohe t united states. so we did thall osthe ings. but i alwaaiys sd mesothing. we need to a putn den ypto hocsyri, cause countrliies keol combia ldo aotig fhting the su.pply y>>eah. >> but h theigr heconsumers in theld wor a nreot doing enghou about the dd.eman so, dyes,eaup sports colombia. fbsuorppts colombia. a supports cbioloma. but i'm talkabing out even somngethi me orbitious, which is w ahererehe t campaigns in the uniteatd stesnd a europe teinpeg ople, "say no to drugs"? and evf en iyodou n't want to geto intth satimplistic kif nd omeagsse, lo aokt the envirotanmenl madage at cocaine pcerodus to torhe wld, becaus oe inrd tero plant one hectare ofa, coc y houave to stderoy 3 hectares roof tpil cajungle. and it is mothe st enrovinmentally dangmagi dgru inheor wld, but nobody's
ngtaki ce arabout these kindde of bas.te and lii beevthe at, in 2020, the consumptofion caiocne spiklled a or vethe world. annod country is g doinanhiytng to put ad n entoha tt expansion in c theonmpsution. so, yehas, tt s hato be brought to ad.n en but that doe msn'tean that i beliehave tt hweave ltoegalize all drthe ugs. >>el ll,et me get tot, tha cae usyour successor, president o,petr id, in his address to the unen geraasl sembly st this weekne in w rkyo... d s hiadministration hacos nsidered purgsuin cocaincre deimalinization. h pasromised that drugff traicrske who negotiate with the colanombi gerovnment and stop trakifficngru dgs wot n'be extradited to the ud nitestesat. the esare very radical lipocies to some. what iurs yo rcteaion to this? >> you cannogot netieat
wirith cmilsna. if you pderovi aaf se haven toco nar tffraickers, your country willom bece a narco-state. >>o syou think heov's ming wabackrds. >> so if cola ombidedecis to negotiateh witall the kinsngpi othf e cartels, loiamb will turn into a ncoar-state. prohioibitn arstted in the '70s, and it is lia pocyha tt has been embracy ed bthwhe ole world, with very exfew ceioptns. soif, just one coyuntr cides to lege alizaldrl ugs, will become s theafhae ven fonar rco trafficker son , caweo dsomething different tifighngru dgs? yes, we can. ido believe, foamr exple, that yanou c heav re progressieave msusre in the cofase mijaruana? believe so, wiomth se ntcorols.
bucat n we afford,so in ciy,et to hleave gacol caine in the streef ts ooucir ties? i fidenitely believe thomat se ugdrs are not polessib to be legad lizebeuscae dtheyesoytr the human b,eing thmae hun aibrn, d atth they can reenprest a bigger de amagtooc siety. 'd>> i le ikto ask you t abouvezuneela. locombia and venlaezue sreha nga lo htoisry, litiy,call ctuulrally, and u share a 1,mi400-leor bder. comb iias now home, afyoter urdm ainistration, to 2.5 millienon vezlauens who tfledhead muro regime. d anunder your lrseadehip, yolcu weom vedenezuelans into youunr cotry, gran mtingosoft them temporary precd status and a pay thwatoit cizenship. this move walls caedy bthe un, "one of thste mo iormptant humanita grianesretus made on this incontensit nce 1984." hodiyod u do this anwd ho did you counthter e lipotics,
the anmmti-iigntra politics, th y fouaced? >> mart,gare iiv led in thunedit states for ea14 yrs. >>o u yoknow something about grimmiatn iodebates? >> botut n oy nlthe debates. enwh i saw how tcohis unytr has beuien blt withig immras,nt as well, where you seale itiaamn-ericans, japanese-acamerins, combn-iaamericans, n-cubaamicerans, domin-nicaamicerans -- en you see hhiow ts uncotry s habeen built, you understahand tt e onof thvae lues of the edunit stetas is t fo beridleny with migrants. and i sae w thteormpary protection ss tatuth watere tegrand ttohe salvadoran polaonti, ttohe haitian patopulion, anwad i s ianmmigrant in ethos days. d ani saw those cipolies, anthd ey made a very pactful infle uencone. m whenun i r f torhe presidency and i saw wwhatasap hpening thhe t venezuelans ater we crossing torhe bders th frozen bones, lo esingvethrying,
tryio ng tha aven access aton opportunity, i said the bthest intog be done is to replicate thteormpary-protectitaon-stus del in colombia. d, in fact, 'sthat wt hai did. witas very unpor.pula yet s, iwas. but i dedecid btoe hein t rhtig side of history anprd ovide the veelnezuan grtsan the possibility on pea bank account, e possibilit by touy h aouse, thpoe ssibility tok. wor and e thesfalimies today -- ey have hope. i and thk inthat has become a fencree for the world. d i rememberrg, maar,et peopled, sai "llwe, this is gotoing rseai poverty. iss igoing to raise unplemoyment." u yoknow what? after 2021, weot g unemploymendut rectn.io g aot multidimensliona vey rtreduction. and adwe h t hheighest amount foformal workergis resteder in the socseial cutyri sy ostemf locombia. good policisoes, unpod licies
when imet cos mtoigrants becan sceucssful. migration poeslici ithn e world sometimes art e noemacbred cause societaries e ptcaured either by phxenoobia or bdiy inffenerce. i think we dstemonrad tethat you n't have to rbe aiccoh untry o to dthrie ght thing wht en icos meto migrants. >>l, wel jt uslast week, anir aplane carrying moalst 50 venezuselan fl tewo martha's varind om texas. prest idenbin desaid of the move... at do you make of americalin potiancis keov gernor ron deissant, o is using vueenezlaren fugees aas political falootbl? >> i think tnihe utestd ates nncaot take the risk ofolizaring that debate. el>> wl,t iis polarized i andt haens be parolized since at aslet -- >> butsh it oun'ldt, margaret,
because i stlyrong evbelie,s aa colombian, as som weonehoas h lived tinhe united states for tmorehaa n decade, at compreh bsiveills that cnian uteot bh sides heof t aleis thare e ghrit messages, because yoveu ha mraignts here th aatre paying yoaxur tes, thavat he aubetiful families, th aatre contributing the to the essuccs of the ud nitestesat. thater unctatyin for them has rmthe benefit igof mraonti r fothe whole soy.ciet d, obviously, unthe it sedtates cannot, say "y kw,no everybody wanho wts come here, cjustom"e, beuscae that is imibpossle. bumet sothg inthat i want ayto s is that yoveu ha tsoo lve the e issuindesi, t you can prt eventhpre essure heon t sthouern border of tnihe utestd ates elby hpi ongther countries generaorte me owgrth and monvre iesentmt. tifhey have theor opptutyni omat he,f ithey have thple ace to work omat he, eai clrlbey lieve that twihey ll have differe,ntly and the inivcentes
lle bdifferent, alls we. ius jt want tosk a you one mormee ti, because ti dohi tnkhis is a new evolutinion arimecan politics, toeen aamerican governor of s atate literally trveeat neelzuan migrants aol pitical footb hall,ow esdo that sit wiouth y? ar>> mgat,re i have to be respulectf othf e litical system inside u thenid testates. so i htoave bpre udent there. but my reflen ctiois, ose people wreho a sfeufring, wharhee re trying tod fin oanpportunity, they neered a spseon th inos t trying toak me them the picolital rtoppouny itof the day. ani d think -- i htlonesy inthk atth for the future ofheni uted states ha aving te rubipartisan, serioubas dete abhoout w ttoreat migrants,
'sit a must. and the only t wayhat that h canapnpe isre to al slyay, "no more stupolid parediz debates. a mpherensive migration bill n teedso pphaen hein t utenid states." w>>ell, from yoipur ls gtood's ears. oray tbeo chuck schusmer' ears. ths.e u. ds oenot recognize vezuneela's maduroer govnmten d considers gjuanuaó idto be the idpresenoft venezuela. isth was consistwient thou yr niadmisttiraon's policy, though your essuccsor has reedvers tt.ha hweave also seen thbin deadministratielon rax meso of the sancstion ait nsvenezuelan oil, as iokt los etoase the economic co oruf ssia's war oran ukine. how willt tha im mpactado'urs power? >> iou dennc nedicolás maduro berefo the internnaatiol imcrinal court, when i w sas aenorat. >>m-m.hm >> d tidhe same whenas i w ected president. and i evbelie thicat nol másaduro
is prongduci ttho e venezuelan people s theamthe ing that vladimir puts in igeraneting tohe t ukrainian pe.eopl th ibls ack or white. you are withur mado ouor y a aregainst maduro, bee causbeg inagainst madusro i inagg ainst dictatiporsh. d>>id the uniteatd stes anlod comb miaiss an opportytuni toth tero usher inem docratic reforms anmod decry acin venezuela? becaus 2e in019, trump edseem twao ver in s hisuprtpo for guaidó. pheublicly admi tttedhat hegrd eewith presideutnt pin on not wantio ng tgeint volved. ywhenouet m with trump 02in 20, u called on unthe it sedtates anlod comb tiao "work thtogeeroi jntly there is pocalitil and crdemoat ticransition ithats feefctive in venlaezue." did the united sstate ledot wn the democ mracyovenemt vinenezuela? >>ar mgaret, this n is aisesu that didstn't arwit th divánuq ouer with donalumd trp
or with ckbara omaba or with idpresenbut sh. and ini thk e thchallenge ate whave right ns ow ithat e united sta ctes,ana,ad d anthe rest of hethe mihespre edo tput all the supresre ansa "y,we have to cthall ese electionnds, a ts hiis the star atingndhe t ending point of this erconvsaonti." >> ier undstd anwhy you want ooto lk rwfoard d annot look bacd,kwar but you shaveaithd at anybody whdes alwith maduro and is cacomplenabt out maduro as guilty eias bngn aaccomplice om.f hi is presi tdentrump in thatet cago?ry >> margaref t, iyoreu' -- i me, anmy response otis n fusoced on donald trorump esident biden or esident obama. my response,s it'loinokg this in a htiolisc y.wa e e onthing that ct annohaenpp is that you -ffliplowhp en you deal with tua siatn ioas complex
asheit suation in veelnezua. this is junot st d aictator who s wanttoem rain in power. this icrs a imalin structure that ives gorng invenezuela, ths at iined b wi ithranian terros,rist that has bee bn ined with colom tbianerrirosts, atth is linked to inttiernaon calartels. it i os anrgizaned-crime organionzati th imas naging a cou,ntry d anthat is absolylute iannse, beuscae this repressent mar jothreat to the wholmie hesprihec security. 2la1 tin american and caribbcoean unietrs arnoe w members ofna chi's ltnd a road initia.tive this ipos a li ocyf the chinese gornvement to invest in tnfhe irarustcture innt couri aesround the world. d itcrics ofhe t belt and roolad picy sath cathina is doinisg th to estab hlishegonemy antod lure vulner cableourintes in dt.eb now, colombi na isot pa ochf ina's be a rndoad initiative, but whouen y we erpresident, pryou aidse thdie plomatic andno ecomitic es
between twthe o tinaons. shouldr yousuesccsor beauoutis about chesine investmentco in loiamb? >> so, le et msathy is, marg.aret thmbe nuerne-o country in thimis hesprehe with csehine iesnvtment tishe united st oatesf eramica. tin america owfolled atwh the u.s. beingan 13,97 twhenheopy ened the diptilomac and e tradretilaons with china. ofall o curountries, alofl our countrieees nd to have infrurastcte urinvestment. anesd, y, inchese companies ha pveresented thevemsels for the bidd, ingsanthd ey have n meso of the bidd.ings and sometimehes, wn wai s esprident, i cereived the quen,stio "why i ts ithacht ina is winning , x, yanz d project?" and i saidel, "wl, because btheyid." and omostf qmyuestion back is, "where were the american companies icpartipinatg inll a those bids?" ani me, inchese corporations arile budi tnghe bogotá metro.
chesine corporatiorens a wkiorng onou fr generationigal hhws.ay it ey asto blame. whary e so many cheines ancompiewis nning the bids? ay, that's fine. and where are e thcoetmpitors tfromheni uted states? i inthk we need toe hav remo u.s. presence inhe t infrastructbiure ddgsin th aatre strategical in our criountes. here in thete unid atstes, there atare lstea six ump-backed neeomins nng infor governorsship ansetena seats in thcoe upming midterm elecs tioninov nember. d anthey have nommt coitdte d llwi not commit to aticcepnghe t election sults in novr.embe wh cdiandates runninrg fo fi icen the unitedte stas stca t doubonur o democratic emsysts and deour moatcric process, what impact tdoeshat veha on other democracies ndarou t wheorld? m>>argaret, i htoave be prudent no et tonge agmyself .sin u. lipotics, but i tecan ll u yoby my example. en you decid re toun,
yoveu ha taco cept what people decin de ithbae llots. thathe's t eenssce of democracy. if you'rt e nowiinllg atoccept what people de ecidinhe t ballots, u ttbeer not run. as simple haas tt. in 1977, on o therinagil "firinneg li" thwi willf.iam bklucey jr., jorge luis bs,orge the gearntinwre iter, joined p theroamgr and discussed someth of e telirary lions ouof sthme arica. atake lk ooat what he says abt e oncolombian wr.iter
i had no ithdea erwae s peaprhs a friendlyal rivry or not-sieo-frnd rlyivalry betwtheen e gearntine writer anthd e colombian erwrit. of coue,rs he'tas lkinabg out -- >> w iell,'vnee ver sehaen tt teinrview, ani ulwod love to se ae itll. t i have to sosay meinthg, rgetar. i'a g bifan of gal briegaíarc márquez and his lituterare. of course. >> so, i gre rw upeangdi garcíaqu márezan, d i think -- >> aound y m hetim. y>>es, yes. he w fas arid enof my father. ani t mehim when he --was iwhen w aas kid. d wheas this marvselou fire. sous i jt elfe proud asol a comanbi to have su aig fure in our hryisto. >> welitl, wh atth, esenidte iván duque, thyoank u msouch for joinmeing here oirn "finlig ne." margaret, t yhankouo smuch. itasee bn a great plreeasu. >> un pr.lace un placer. >> "firing line with margaret hoover" is made possible in part by...