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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  April 14, 2017 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT

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>> rose: welcome to the program, we begin this evening with mark halperin and john heilemann, they are cocreators and executive producers of the irsus, inside the biggest political story on earth. >> the system is perceived to be rigged a people, and it is. and so people who say that and t specific about remedy, evenre if they have other aspects of their message that are less connected to economics, that is a reality of a lot of people in america today. and its' a reality, you know, 85 days too donald trump's president he see that again you go to these townhalls now, you hear a lot of grieveance. and you hear a lot of people whether they are targeting their member of congress or not, they feel the system is rigged. >> we continue with dan lamotte lamothe of the washington post talking about a huge bomb that was used for the first time in afghanistan.
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>> when you look at it, something that has been in afghanistan for years and not used, which is basically what we are hearing about this particular bomb, that it had been in storage there, but it never was used anywhere, the question becomes why now. and what were the optics of that. you know, what lead them to think that this was the best option rather than, for example, you know, a dozen smaller bombs. >> rose: we conclude with diane von furstenberg and jane goodall, she is the winner of the lifetime leadership award at the dvf awards. >> st a great honor. and i think everything like this is helping me to get out a message to people which i think is tremendously important at this time when we are doing so much to harm the planet, when there is so much discrimination, when you know, there is so much to try and put right. >> rose: politics, bombs, diane von furstenberg and jane goodall when we continue. funding for charlie rose is
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provided by the 2308ing:ed-- following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> mark halperin and john heilemann are here, they are the cocreators and executive producers of the political docuseries, the circus, inside the biggest story on earth. the first season documented the historic 2016 presidential election in realtime. now as the trump presidency approaches the completion of its first 100 days the program is back for a new season and here
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is a look. >> this hag now become a proint of controversy-- a point of controversy here, this group has been putting up these billboards. the billboards say have you seen him, missing david, paid for by the george ga alliance of-- and produce kind of doug in, he is like i'm not going to be with these people. so we're interested in what happens in a deep red state like georgia, maybe trending a little purple but postally red state like georgia where a pretty popular u.s. senator comes back home to be greeted to this wave of progressive activism that is sweeping across the country. >> why are you here. >> because david perdue won't talk to us. he voted with trump almost 100 percent of the time. at he won't meet with >> it says he has his agenda and he doesn't want to hear ours. >> is he great at taking big money stuff, but he doesn't listen to us regular stuff.
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>> perdue said that's not his tile, what is his style, i mean he owes his constituents a sound. >> you talked about a representative democracy and it's important to lessen. sources tell us that your camp encouraged your spoforters to buy tables so that you would see a friendly, not a hostile crowd. >> every week in our office in atlanta we have people who really don't agree with us come in and give us their input. we're doing a good job of listening. >> social justice says you didn't meet in a townhall. >> you know, i do better than that. i'm meeting with individual constituents. townhall is one way to do it. >> what do you hear your con stit wepts are most encouraged about about the trump administration an most discouraged. >> they're most encouraged there will be hope that there will be rollback to some of the regulations that hurt business and that we will get to a tax solution, and that health care can get fixed. i mean i hear that from my constituents every day. i think the concern is they don't know him yet, not a lot about he has done has gotten out by the media candidly so they
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are nervous about foreign policy and the economic situation. that's what i hear. >> rose: the circus airs on showtime sundays at 8 p.m., i'm pleased to have mark halperin and john heilemann back at this table. welcome, congratulations. explain that segment, this shows that some people in the congress on the republican side are getting big pushback from their constituents having to do with health care, specifically, budget items. >> so this thr is a scene from the upcoming episode on sunday, we have been out this week in the country, it is the congressional recess, first week, congress people going home, one of the features of the trump presidency so far has been this wave of democratic activism, where the left is suddenly as on fire as the right was back at the beginning of barack obama'sed mrgs and showing up, as the congress people are coming home, they are taking over townhall meetingsk trying to take over, david purdue has been tucking down hall meetings so every time he goes home he is greeted to
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several hundred people protesting at his events. that is one of the big thins happening now in our politics. >> how long a lead time do you need for this show? >> we shoot it in a way we don't think anything has ever been done, about politics at least, we shoot from sunday, to saturday and put it on the air the next day. >> so this will be on the air sunday night. >> this week has been full of donald trump and foreign policy. i vn seen the entire show but that is the story here. the story that you just showed was a story about health care when he t was being debated. they already had the vote on health care. >> this is one of the most interesting we cans in what has been a nonstop news presidency. >> exactly can, a that more news has been made this week on foreign policy since donald trump became president. >> russia, china, north korea, syria, obviously. and yet because congress is away, you don't have the ecochamber of that coequal branch of members of congress in washington in front of thousands of journalists and tv camerases
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responding t dominated the week to be sure. but imagine if congress hadn't been on recess, what the reaction what the hot house reaction would be to all of these developments. and what john's segment there showed you as we've seen, as we've been with members of both parties around the country, the country is not all caught up in the foreign policy stuff. the country is concerned about a lot of domestic issues which was e campaign, health care,ory of taxes, business regulation, jobs, and so. >> but what is happening is this, i mean the foreign policy stuff, in terms of changing-- changing positions. >> extraordinary momentum. >> you haven't seen the whole episode yet. >> i know. one much the premises of this, of this episode when he started out.s this week going to bes the syria am booings that occurred the previous week, but what is this week going to be about, it wasn't clear what the dominant story would be. there is no doubt that for elite
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this week has been about russia, china, some of the things donald trump switched positions on. out in the country. >> i think everybody in the country saw the pictures that donald trump saw. >> oh, hundred percent. >> hundred percent. >> they cared about that. >> they did. but for instance, there is some polling that will be out tomorrow that suggests that donald trump's approval rate disg not change one whit based on his aks in syria. >> to your point, here is the thing. this show, we are always in the week we are in. last weak we did an episode that was about north korea, china, syria, russia. it was a packed week. the chaina summit, packed for foreign policy. we will have some of that in the episode this week. the fact is 535 memberses of congress are not in washington this week. they are out in the country. and i can tell you. >> this will be a time they hear become from their constituents in terms of what is on their mind. >> being in georgia and vicialgia and maryland over the last course of three days, people are talking a little bit
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about foreign policy and about a lot of other stuff. >> that has always been true. people use talk about what is affects me, what affects my family what affects my home, what affects my job and what affects my capacity. >> what is different is donald trump is now the president. whereas previously where you saw this activism going on which was mostly the tea party, right, eight years ago the tea party changed our politics because they were energized by the presence of barack obama. you are now seeing the mirror image of that which is the left wing version of the tea party rising up and showing up at these republican townhalls. and flexing their muscles creating a situation where i had elijah cummings congressman from maryland saying he is 100 percent confident the democrats will retake the control of the house of representatives on the basis of what he is saying not just in his district but around the country. we saw this race in utah yesterday where a congressional district. >> did much better than anybody believed. >> donald trump won by 27 points three months ago, the republican by only 7 points.
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>> trump had to weigh in heavily with a lot of phone calls. >> this is a big story, not just about this week but for the next area and a half. >> rose: let's speak about the political story, you are good at that. do you agree with what the congressman said in terms of the possibility of a coalescing of a resistence and a political movement against. >> way too soon to say that things are headed in thatex dr.. donald trump has not been in office a hundred days. there is no doubt that the republican party is still trying to figure out what it means to be the republican party of donald trump as a governing party and as a party facing a lot of elections in 2018. the democratic party energized. more by donald trump than they were by ronald reagan or george bush. >> rose: is it primarily, is it more to the left? >> is it the left more energized
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than anyone, will the left have more power and influence. >> they will have a lot of influence in the party. >> because they were disappointed. ts anything done or not.umpwill and right now part of why this week is so fascinating is everybody is focusing, the white house is very focused on this foreign policy stuff, incredibly important. people in the country are focused on things that affect them directly. he still hasn't proven he can master the legislative process. will get through his first hundred days without passing a major piece of legislation. and the question i think is how does the alchemy of all this work. as i said before, no indication at any polling data we have seen that his big bold moves on foreign policy have affected how people think of him. and generally presidents when they do big bold things in foreign policy would like to see a rise in their approval rating and be able to use that as leverage to go to a congressman and say i'm popular now, you have to work with me. >> george h-w bush, president 41, had an 80% rating after. >> close to 90%. >> close to 90%. >> after the war. and his son was in the 70s and
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'80s after 9/11. >> and yet at the time the economic issues prevail because of bill clinton's ability to articulate. >> here is also what i think is important. you think about the congress is on a recess, the point are you making i think is not just about foreign policy though, it's about something else that donald trump is trying to do which is do a reset while the congressman is on recess. and the reset isn't just about foreign policy, it's about the fact he changed his position on a wide array of issues in the last 48 hours. there is a big discussion now going on especially with those changes on things like the xm bank and on whether china is a currency manipulator, on nato. whether those are reflective. >> whether janet yellin should be head of the fed. >> rose: all things he changed his mind to positions of people that are elites but also moderates. >> all reflective of a president who seams to be, although you can never tell with trump fully, but seems to be a president trying to be more conventional and establishment. if the back grop against all of that is the steve bannon story. i raise that story mainly
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because it's not about white house palace intrigue but i'm fascinated by it. but today, with congressman cummings, afteran african-american congress mng, do your constituents know who steve bannon s they all know who steve bannon is, i said really, he said yeah, african-americans are terrified of donald trump and part of the reason is because they see a white supremacist in the white house. and so they know who steve bannon is for that reason. and i again i raise that not to attack steve bannon but to say that people are paying attention very closely. and that's why this pivot that trump seems to be trying to do or reset he's trying to do, why it matters. is he moving away from steve bannon, cummings said if he is doing that, that will be good. i'm encouraged by that because it signifies maybe is he trying to become a more normal president than what we have seen for more. >> rose: understanding how the congressman felt, my first instinct would be that trump's voters didn't care about intrigue within washington, and didn't care about who was, what
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advisor the presidents with favoring over the other one. but it wut cuts a certain way when they feel like someone is a white supremacist. >> there is a question about what the alt-right, what his base, bannon is a hero for a lot of people on the right just as he is a villain for a lot of people on the left. are people without love breitbart, people who are part of that part of the trump base f bannon were to lose his job, would they see that as significant. i don't know the answer to that, but it's con inconceivable that it will have the same fek on those people who feel as though bannon is a keeper of the populist flame in the white house. >> one of the things we learned traveling around the country doing the circus, people on the right and even on the left are more patient than elites are about giving trump a little more time to see if he can figure it out. can he work with democrats, he can pass things, can he live up to some of the promises he made. elites want to score card it every day and say it's over, will not have anything done in the first hundred days, he's dead and buried politically. the people in the country are more patient. the people in the white house are growing impatient. you know, they will say publicly
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the media is judging us too quickly, give us a little more time. but they recognize that they need to come back from this congressional recess. they've got the states, themselves in washington now but in a week and a half congress will be back. and at that point they are going to have to start getting things done with not quite a buy nary choice but close to it they continue to pass things with the republican only votes, health care, taxes, or do they switch and say we're going to figure out a way to alienate some people on the right but find a way to get support from democrats. >> will steve bannon survive or is it in his hands to do something that will make sure that he survives. >> i think that if he learns to play nicely with others he's got a chance to survive. he still adds value from a president's point of view. donald trump on personnel is pretty simple. it's not about loyalty, he can be a loyal person but on personnel it's is the problem that the person causes worth, worth it because i see a lot of upside. i think steve bannon needs to remind the president if he wants to stay what is the upside of having steve bannon here.
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there is now clearly a big downside from a pr point of view and his inability to get along with others in the white house. >> rose: i never, i really don't understand this, and i will ask both of you this. on the one hand, there are all the people who had economic dislocation, people who suffer income inequality, who really have not seen the kind of improve nment their life and their lifestyle thark they had hoped, cases in which children are not as approximately off as-- as well off as their parents. that's one thing. there is the other thing which is part of what, apart of what has an appeal that's nasdaqier than that. it is the far right. in american politics. does steve bannon speak to both of them or is it just the people who are great read ares of breitbart. >> i don't have enough of an understanding to say what his intentions are, from the point of view of who responds to the rhetoric of breitbart and the rhetoric of bannon. it's both for sure. >> it's both.
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>> in terms of who responds to it. >> witness the fact they won. >> witness the fact they won but constant need is in political journalism to not overinterpret things that happened. donald trump won because the country did not, i think, most primarily because the country did not see hillary clinton had someone who would change things. they fumentdly wanted things to change. >> someone said to me this week in the end, in regards to what they thought of hillary clinton, in the end this election was about change, which it often is. >> they wanted change. >> do people care in the country who voted for donald trump, that he opposed the xm bank, i don't think so. but did they care that he said china was a currency manipulator and put a stop to that. i think a lot of people cared about that. >> rose: do they care if they believe he will do something about the fact that they think china because of its practices was taking jobs away from them. >> i think that is a big deal for voters. >> rose: that is the first thing he said. >> but it's not even one of the
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individual things. i have i you this-- i think you have, over the last 25 years in the politics, you've seen the market for populist politics on the right, on the left, has grown. it's been true, true on the left. and this campaign, bernie sanders. bernie sanders made villains out of fat cats, the rich, wall street. >> rose: you think donald trump appointed. >> donald trump picked another set of villains but there were a bunch of people, some in the secretary category, who you can appeal to through racial animus ander things. >> rose: i was think being the billionaires an wall street types. >> i made the point that i think that the market for grieveance of whether you are on the left and grieveance toward the rich or on the right and your grieveance is towards china or illegal immigrants or towards the washington elites, the market for grieveance and appealing to grieveance has gotten larger. part waf bannon has done is he has tapped into the right, the right word, well spring of that grieveance. that's what he is represented. in addition to in some cases
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breitbart running things that have been anti-semitic and racist, he also had this broader thing. >> rose: i believe that beyond all of that, and breitbart, whatever, may have been said on breitbart, there is, this is a guy who reads a lot and has thought about history and cycles and all of that. >> pop lism and nationalism, there is a-- there is a market for those things. there just is. >> rose: the. >> the system is perceived to be rigged against working class people. and it is. and so people who say that an he none yait that even if they are not specific about remedy, even if there are aspects of their message that are less, less connected to economics, that is a reality of a lot of people in america today. and it's a reality, you know, 85 days into donald truch's presidency that again you go to these townhalls now, you hear a lot of grieveance. and you hear a lot of people who, whether they are targeting their member of congress or not, they feel the system is rigged. >> as you go to your point. >> to go to your point from earlier, again something i heard
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over the course of the last few days and before but now we're into donald trump's presidency, people are more patient than elites are. i heard of lot 6 us, with veterans yesterday, they are all ready to give donald trump a year, they're not ready to pull a lot of trump supporters in the room. they're not ready to give up on him now. but it is only a year, their attitude is you know, i will give it more time than you tbies in the smart set in washington but i'm not going to give him four years, that is why the question is what will he actually do. >> during the campaign, think about all the candidates you watched, barack obama, hillary clinton, bill clinton and all those. where do you put as a political animal donald trump? >> i said after he won the nomination, he was the second best. not because of-- . >> rose: second to bill clinton. >> not based on pure talent, but based on results. because he won the nomination with about four advisors. tiny little operations shall spent almost no money. that. >> rose: when he says he was
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the principal strategist i believe him. >> that feat of winning the nomination, i thought, unmatched really in american history, given his byo, the nature of the republican party, that he wasn't a member of the year before he ran. >> rose: and given the fact that he has spoken about every issue, often against what republicans liked in his life. >> and then like donald trump i'm willing to accept new data and change my position. i think his performance in the general election was more unveen-- uneven d he not take nearly as much advantage in the general election of opportunities as did he as a nomination. so he is unlike anyone else but i will tell you where is he first in the first tier, his understanding of the news cycle, his understanding of how to control the news cycle, the mechanics and how to dominate it and his ability to have a finger tip feel for what is required to achieve something that he wants to achieve. he doesn't always execute those things but his knowledge of them, i've never seen anyone better than him at those things. >> rose: no one said it better than obama when he said at one point when some people were down, saying critical things. he said it's not easy to win the
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presidency. that took something. and you got to give him credit. >> barack obama did it as an african-american not on the national stage. >> trump has a ton of law flaws but anyone who wins it, it is a big deal. this is a guy who did it first time he ran for office. >> rose: my question then is. >> here is the thing, the cav yet to that. trump has obvious charisma, he overcame-- given the self-inflicted wounds, the fact that the guy is actually still standing politically, at whatever level is kind of as ton petitioning-- astonishing. at den dumb to that comment. no one is trying to take anything away from trump. he is right when he says he was doomed, couldn't get to 270 electoral votes when he got to 306. he takes too much retroactive pleasure in that but he's right, he accomplished something extraordinary. on the other hand, it seems to me you can't divorce politics and political practice from what it is designed to ultimately achieve. the question is you can run for president in a way that sets you
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up in order to accomplish big things. and right now on the basis of having lost the popular vote and then done nothing to, and campaign in a very devicive way, he put himself in a position where he came in with extraordinary self-inflicted challenges to be able to do anything in a large way, he's governing a country where because of how he ran, because of the groups that he alienated, the groups he offended, the things he said, the way he behaves, he came in with an incredible weight around his neck. >> and only made it harder. >> so i don't take anything away from his achievement in winning. but did he it in a way that made it extraordinarily hard to bring the country back together in a way that would allow, even if he wanted to, that would allow him to accomplish anything on the large scale. >> but i mean-- . >> the pitch he made to congress was the first step on that, and the next day off on another subject. >> he will not be a successful president without a lot of improvement and some luck. >> turn from donald trump to two
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other stars. the los angeles stars had this to say about the two of you. there are rock stars over the political punditry world. a distinction that brought him political kudos and sharp jabs. the praise, for making a painful election year palatable and some some what sain with reportage rather than hyperbole, the criticism become part of a media pack that turned a crucial part of the democratic process that an an dured spectacle thasm is what the "l.a. times" said. >> we don't seem too worried about that. >> we will on stain-- abstain from commenting on that. >> i don't think we treated it-- i don't think we treat it as absurd t is a spectacle. i think we, in the last season and in this season, we're out talking to more voters. we're out trying to connick el what's happening in a thoughtful way. i think as much as anybody, so i am not saying we're going to criticize about the show but we don't treat it as a prif frivolous thing. >> they didn't say that about you. they said that you have made a
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painful election year palatable and sain with report reporters rather than hyperbolee. the criticism for being part of a media pack that turned a crucial part of the democratic process into absurd spectacle. >> we don't think it's absurd. >> you don't think it's absurd. >> it's not absurd t is serious and important. but it is a spectacle. not just because donald trump is involved. >> our president campaigns and even our government, it's a spectacle. nobody else does it like the way we do it an we're covering it, trying to expose its essence which is serious and involves real lives, real people, but it's a spectacle. >> what is it you believe that circus can do that has not been in the past served and was served in part by circus during the political year, and is now going to serve understanding the political process. >> what we try to do is exactly the opposite of what this writer suggested in the negative part of this piece which is in both the books we wrote and in the circus, they share the sametteos
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which is we are trying to basically pull back the curtain on how politics works, and get closer in a way in a more authentic way to the people who are running for office, the people helping them run for office and the voters and have a conversation that is not like what you see on cable news every night which is, you know, a camera on a riser shooting donald trump giving a speech. we do almost none of that. we try to get you off to the side,. >> rose: you also do more than the sunday talk shows do. >> it's not, it is the skewed angle, the authentic moment, it's the here's where you see what this really takes to run for president. here is where you see how tired they are. or the absurdity of the sirks to which they find themselves in. it is the raw human moments of this extraordinary-- . >> rose: it looks great, charlie, i know you love movies. >> yes, i do. >> if we made-- movies are art, right, high art, if we can-- i will take that, rich characters.
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>> we want people to enjoy the character and watch it and that means if it is well produced, well shot f it looks nice, it's better television. but to meet the most. >> you don't sacrifice anything in doing that. >> it is not a partisan show which is different than a lot of stuff on tv an it's about the human beings in this country living at a time of great promise, and great per ill, and how they are grappling with that. and that is not frivolous at all. we think the personalities of politics from donald trump to paul ryan to nancy pelosi to joe biden, these are interesting people. and they're important people to understand. and we're trying to get in places with them where people can see them in a way that they can understand them better. >> is it interesting because of their ambition, because of their skills, because they do everything. >> yes, all that. >> in a public light. >> all that. >> and their flaws. >> yes, all of that, all of that. >> but are they more interesting than you knee, athletes, entertainment stars. >> one doesn't want to-- you don't need to measure, that is
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not. >> you are asking-- where you asking if dik durbin is more interesting that lebron james, i'm not going to go there. >> they are, this is the great-- it's the most intense, absurd, extreme competition in the world for the most powerful office in the world and the people who put themselves forward to do it tend to be people of great talent, great eat vanity, great insecurity, gread pride, great power, ambition. all of those things. it makes them highly compelling. >> when you slice it to the end, is what we are most fascinated by the thrurs for power and the realization of power and you what can do with power, whether it's caesar or whether it's. >> there is no question st an enduring theme. i will tell you, i bet you like me, i get an email a day at least from somebody that includes a sentence like this. i can't believe donald trump is president. i can't believe it. some of 24e78, are miserable about it. some of them are delighted because they can't believe that someone who is that much of an
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outsider is going to change things. so could we have done the circus about the obama administration, the bush administration, the clinton administration. we could have. but there's no denying that we are all going to look back, not just us journalists but i think almost everyone in america is going to look back at this period and say however the story ends, however donald trump turns out as president, there is one of the most fascinating things that ever happened in american history with huge real consequences for people. however it turns out. >> and you will be there to document it. >> most every week. >> unless it kills us along the way. >> yeah. >> not impossible. >> are there stories beyond the ones we have talked about this evening that are compelling in terms of what we have been talking about? this thrurs for power, this sense of someone who has come on the scene, who's quite different from everybody else? but are the stories that propel us, you know, that are up for grabs. >> i think. >> it as an inside washington
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story, the question of this man grappling with the presidency changes everyone. this is a guy who is pretty old to be president. the story of will this change him in anyway i think is a great inside story. outside, i really do think that people in the country are looking for washington to change. and these two exeting impulses, one that says i live in red america, i hate everyone who lives in blue america and vice versa, with the competing impulse, including sometimes in the same person, people need to get along better. they need to come together. i think the story of whether this government now, over the next four years can actually make people feel not just concrete improvements with policies and ledgelation, but can people feel better about their government, is a huge story. >> look, there are a lot of stoverrees. both parties, even though in a funny way, even though the republican party in some ways is stronger than it has been in a roll long time it is still a party that has really fundamental contradictions it is grappling with, witness how it is feeling with the president who is not a republican in a traditional way. the feutd of the democratic
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party who will lead it, what will become of it. it is a party in tatters in the sense of what it actually controls in america, and yet it's also the party right now that has all the energy out in the world. those are huge stories and the russia story continues. this week is come founded a lot of people because the as the administration is pointing out. donald trump is in bed with vladimir putin. why do we launch these missiles against syria, where are we in this fight well. are we so hostile against rex tillerson and his counterpart in moscow t is still the case that the biggest, most quengs story, even bigger in some ways than donald trump's election, is the fact and we still don't know the details, the fact that russia intervened in an american election, in a significant, coordinated, dramatic way and in a way that. >> that story is no longer on the front page, will it come back. >> not at this moment. you asked about things we haven't talked about tonight. i think we still-- it's a giant story. vladimir putin almost certainly he greatest successes of hisf
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entire political career. what they did in october. so how did it happen? why did it happen? what can we do about it. was there some collusion with the trump administration, as i put that forth in importance, this is a gigantic story, the future of cyberwar, the future of espionage, all of those questions are entailed in that question. i think over the course of the next couple of years we will investigate it, books will be written, reports will be done, it is really, really important story for the future of how we practice our democracy and other people practice theirs. >> rose: before i close this, my impression was that you guys were not going to write a book this year. >> where did you get that impression. >> rose: i just thought, i didn't have a sense-- i had a sense you weren't going to write a book this year. >> were you drunk. >> rose: no, i was not. >> okay, just checking. >> rose: but are you now. >> yeah. >> rose: what kind of book? >> same like game changing double down. the story of what happened, not a political science book. not a part san book.
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not a book about polling, but a book about the story of what happened. how did the most incredible outcome of any election we've ever seen actually occur. you had did hillary clinton someone of great experience in public policy lose to donald trump. >> rose: you no he that answer. >> we're getting there. wewe're chis eling away at it. we know some of it but we want to reveal that as we did in other books through the stories of what happened. not county returns, the stories of what happened, the human stories. >> thank you for asking. because that is all news to me. hi been informed it was going to be a popup book. >> rose: good to see you. >> thank you, charlie. >> good to see you. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with. >> rose: we turn now to the use of a new bomb by the united states in av ban stand. the u.s. military was hurt again today after american forces dropped a 22,000 pound bomb on islamic state-controlled territory in afghanistan. the device targeted isis' use of roadside bombs, bunkers and tunnels it is the first time the bomb, called it gbu 43 has ever been used in combat.
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the pentagon also reported that the aircraft from an american-led coalition accidentally killed 18 syrian fighters aligned with the u.s. on tuesday, in combat against isis. joining me now from washington is dan la mother, national security correspondent for "the washington post," where he also anchors his military blog which is you will kad checkpoint. thank you so much for joining us. this was a great surprise to me. tell me about the bomb itself, first. >> thanks for having me, charlie. so this bomb has been in development so since really prior to the iraq war back in 2002, 2003. it is not the heaviest bomb that the united states has. but it is probably the most powerful conventional bomb that they have. the idea that it could collapse tunnels, and explodes right at the surface rather than some of the other larger bombs that bury down deep to get things that are several hundred feet deep. >> what is this bomb's purpose? >> this bomb's purpose is
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largely things at or very close to the surface. so collapsing tunnels it sounds like this was probably a network of tunnels, kind of on a mountain side 789 this would have been something that can take out and collapse a good portion of that area. >> and what does it say about what the threat is of isis in afghanistan? >> it says that it certainly is still there. and we kind of heard that in cycles in the past. you go back a year and a half or two years, isis was kind of 307ing up as an increasing threat there, at one point it was, we were told it was down to almost nothing. so to see a strike like this and to hear that several hundred isis fighters were potentially in the region t sows that the problem isn't gone. >> is this-- why did they decide to use it now? was this a decision by a commander in the field? >> that is an excellent question. from what i have been told, the
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approval process on this did not go up to the white house. and did not go up to the pentagon it was made by general nicholson, the top general in av ban stand and general votel who command, kind of overseeingal operations across the middle east. >> and are we likely to deploy this bomb in other places? or is it specific for a place like afghanistan? >> it is not really specific to afghanistan. and really i think the question is where this bomb and why now? >> rose: that's a very good question. >> yeah. i was talking to a colleague that covered the pentagon for years kind of at the outset of the iraq war and he noted that back then reporters were regularly asking have you used this bomb yet. have you used this bomb yet. and for a variety of reasons they never did back then. primarily i think because the explosion is so big that it's much harder to control civilian casualties nsm a place like afghanistan on a mountainside like this, i think there is much less risk of somebody, of civilians being in the area. >> and anything from the
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military or the pentagon as to whether they plan to use this bomb in other circumstances in afghanistan? >> no real sense for whether this is something we may see again. but i mean it is certainly something they still have in the arsenal and in a way i kind of wonder how much of this was psychological. looking to flex muscle, looking to show that this isn't going to be tolerated and that sort of thing. more of the, you know, the cyops sort of thing you hear about with warfare. >> send a message. >> exablgly. >> yeah, and maybe send a message to north korea as well? >> i would certainly wonder that myself. >> so what else do you speculate about, what questions are you asking this evening having written about this? >> i mean really the questions are-- i mean when you look at it, something that has been in av tban stand for years and not used, which is basically what we are hearing about this particular bomb, that it had been in storage there, but it never was used anywhere. the question becomes why now. and what were the optics of
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that, you know, what lead them to think that this was the best option rather than for example a dozen smaller bombs. i go back to 2015, there was a 30 mile-- 30 square mile training camp that was discovered in southern afghanistan in hellman province. and in that case they launched scores of air strikes, dozens of air strikes over the better part of a day. but there was nothing this big. it was all more typical bombs that you would see. >> rose: it's clear that this bomb was developed during the obama administration, isn't it? >> no, actually, this bomb, the development of it started way before that. we're going back to bush. >> bush 43. >> correct, yes. >> yeah. and at that time, did they say what purpose it had? >> well, i mean really it was all of the above. it is antipersonnel, it's looking to level a very, very large area at one time. i know one thing that comes up off when air strikes is they're
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trying to get to the circuiters, they call them, typically people you drop one bomb, and then you see people running away, fighters running away. and you go in and do additional air strikes. with a larger explosion like this i imagine that is less of an issue for u.s. military. would you think they would have been able to get a lot more people at one time. >> rose: thank you so much for joining us. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: pleasure to have you. back in a moment, stay with us. the 8th annual dvf awards took place this month, launched in 2010 by the dill diller von furstenberg family foundation, the awards honor women complitted to improving the lives of other women, recipients are also granted $50,000 for their nonprofit work. dr. jane goodall received the year's lifetime leadership award. the renowned conservationist founded the jane goodall steult
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in 1977 to help protect chimpanzees and promote vaimental sustain taibilityd. in whoing knee die an von furstenberg and jane goodall. i'm pleelsed to have them at this table. tell me why you created this sth. >> well, actually, you know i've always been extremely inspired by these incredible women who have-- who have, you know, the strength to fight and the courage to survive. and after that, the leadership to inspire. and my children, my son said you know, you should do a prize that is something that you can actually give exposure to people, and also you know, the foundation can give them money. and if you do it, years after years it will last after you. and you know, and so. >> rose: sounded like a good idea. >> it sounded like a good idea. but i was very shy how to go about it. and when tina started the first women in the world conference, i thought oh well, this is a perfect moment to start. and so that eight years ago we
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started. it's on the second night of the women in the world. conference. and it happens at the u.n. and it's kind of been-- at first i was very shy. but i, it's been amazing. and i was able to see women who have done extraordinary work who are completely unknown and given them exposure and sometimes, you know, a lot of them became cnn heroes and more and more. atsz's it's like a family. i keep up with them and i know them and it's a beautiful thing. and of course the life thyme award has gone to, you know, people like hillary clinton and gloria steinham and oprah, and now jane goodall who i am so excited to meet and to be able to speak to. >> rose: so you had not met her before? >> no, no. >> rose: oh my goodness. >> no, no. we met, here we are. >> rose: you meet at this table. >> yeah. >> rose: so how do you feel on receiving this?
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>> well, i think-- . >> rose: not the first award for you. >> no, but it's a great honor. and i think, you know, everything like this is helping me to get out a message to people which i think is tremendously important at this time when we're doing so much to harm the planet, when there is so much discrimination there is so much to try and put right. >> rose: so much-- in the lack of understanding of how precareious it is. >> it is really precare-- i mean chime at change, if you dededeny climate change there is something very strange. and you know, the fact that we have had an impact on the warming of the planet, it's pretty-- con cluesive for all the scientific reports. >> and you brought some friends with you here? >> well, yes, you know, this is cal and people know about carbon dioxide, burning of fossil fuel adding to the greenhouse gases.
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but so too with heavy meat eating, because you know, when you cut the forest down which releases co2, and too, it is a waste of water, it changes plant protein to animal protein but in addition there are now billions of animals cooped up in tiny spaces, they all need to be fed. and food goes in one end, and gas comes out the other. and that is methane, that is an even more vicious greenhouse gas. >> rose: what does the institute do? >> we try to make the world a better place. no, we-- we started off conservation of chimpanzees and the forest as well as studying them. it dawned on me one day, it just hit me, flying over the national park where we still do research t was once part of a forest. when i looked down it was a tiny little oasis of forest surrounded by completely bare hills. more people than the land could
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support, and that's when it hit me. unless we improved the lives of the people, unless we do something about this crippling poverty, where you have to cut the trees down to try and grow food or make some money with charcoal, we can't-- conservation simply won't work. we have to work with the local people. and have them as our partners. >> rose: how successful have you been? >> we started with 12 villages around gombi national park. we're now in 52. the trees have come back. there is no more bare hills. and we've got this program in six other african countries in or around chimpanzee habitats. >> rose: is this your proudest achievement? >> i think that the achievement that i am most excited about, that is one. but two, our youth program. because what is the point of working to save the environment, be better stewarts than weo have been. so what began with 12
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high-school students in tanzania is now in 98 countries. we've got members from kindergarten through university. we've got about 1,500 active groups. and it's changing attitudes. i mean in china, everybody on i met last time said oh, of course we care about the environment. we were in your program or we were in primary school. and it's certainly changing attitudes in many other countries around the world. >> rose: there are lots of articles now because of what has happened in terms of opposition to-- things which people point to china in taking the lead. >> china announced that it will take the lead. up at the top with solar. they want to do clean green energy. and they're now-- . >> rose: and when? >> well, they're doing it now, they're already ahead in solar energy. and you know, the silly thing is that solar energy and all these other wind and tide, they can provide unhads of thousands of
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jobs and it's sustainable. >> rose: and the technology is getting better and better. >> better and better. >> rose: the storage of what happens. >> it is already cheaper. >> rose: already cheaper. >> and unfortunately-- . >> rose: than fossil fuel. >> governments go on supporting fossil fuel because of the power and the money and the corruption. and the fact that we have developed into a society-- . >> rose: cheap has always been what is the vulnerability of fossil fuel in terms of being able to lunge forward was make it cheaper to have it become. >> which means destroying the environment. >> rose: no, no, i mean talking about alternative fuels, alternative sources. >> oh yeah. >> rose: when you can make sun and wind and other sources, alternative sources cheaper than fossil fuel. >> yeah. >> rose: then you are win the game. >> and we could easily. at he subsidies went to the clean green energy rather than fossil fuel industry. >> rose: but i'm also
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interested too, people, companies like exxon mobile announced it is supporting them when it came down that the president was, during the campaign was opposed to the support it.t they very muchle >> yeah, because they see writing on the wall. >> rose: yeah. you have gif enup running your company, you have a c.e.o. who runs t for you, correct? >> no, what i have ask-- i hired a chief creative officer, a wonderful, talented english machine, scottish, actually, i mean. and is he great. he has a lot of talent. he's young, he's excited. and so i have, yeah, so i am-- i really am supporting him to take over and bring it to the next, you know, to the next whatever, to focus on my third act. >> rose: what is your third act? >> my third act is to try to use whatever-- you know, when you get to be successful, a little bit, right, one you could pay your bills and two you have a d i think that it is
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imperative, it is a privilege but it's a duty to use your voice for people who have no voice, or to connect with people with a voice to, in order to you know, communicate and let those voices out, so that we weave into a fabric of impact, and compassion and results. >> rose: are you in the midst of that third act now. >> what do you mean, i hope i'm at the beginning. what do you mean. >> rose: it didn't happen yesterday. >> yes. >> rose: this is the 8th year of these awards. >> that's true. but now i want to spend more time in mentoring. were you talking about young people. it's so important to inspire young people. and to-- one of the other girls who is winning the award tomorrow, she has an organization called i-civics. and she is, what she is doing is that she's putting sifnlgs classes in to national schools.
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that is so pornltd. so important. and right now actually we have an opportunity because people are very confused with what is happening. it's very scary what is happening. so we have an opportunity and a window to let everybody say okay, each one of us has a little bit of power. each one of us can affect somebody else. and i know that you feel that way. >> every one of us makes an impact on the planet every day. >> rose: together we can have a huge impact. >> together we have a huge impact. i truly believe anyone head and heart work in harmony. rose: meaning meaning that too we are making decisions base tht
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of women. >> we certainly moved further than, you know, we were 50 years ago. >> rose: i'm sure. >> we've got along with a to go. in some countries, it is getting better. >> rose: one of the things that tina's conference you get a chance to appreciate, is sort of the global impact of women, and at the same time, the global struggle of women. >> it's incredible. you know, my mother always told me that i was lucky to be a woman, right? my mother was very much like that. are you lucky because when she referred to men, she always said la povre, right. >> rose: she said what. >> la, povre means you know, be nice to them. >> rose: tap them on the head, nice boy, nice boy within so that is-- that is the way i was raised. then i was in the world of fashion where to be a woman was easy. and i didn't, i never was like in a job that i competed with
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men, you know, on an equal base, and so on. so i never really felt sexism. but today i do. today i feel like we, in so many ways we have gone back. >> one of the native american tribes, and they say we see our peoples alike an eagle. and one swing male and one wing is female. and we'll only achieve our true potential when the two wings are equal. >> exactly. >> that i really like. >> tell me what your ambitions are now. >> well, my ambition is to grow this huge program. because it is involving young people, it's youth driven. they choose projects, for people, animals and the environmentment but running through it is a theme of, you know, we need peace an harmony. we need to learn peace and harmony between people in different nations, different cultures, different religions and between us and the natural world. so it is very much creating a
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family of young people growing up and sharing the same values. and it is now been going, again in 91y, there is a lot of people now out in leadership positions. and i keep meeting them. and they all say it changed, it changed us to be part of that program. >> repeat the name so people know of the program. >> roots an choots, you think of a big tree, starting as a little seed, little roots and little chute, seems very weak but those little roots to reach the water can push aside rocks and that little chute to reach the sun sun can break through brick balls. we think of all the problems, environmental and social as roots and chuteses. hundreds and thousands. >> rose: was one of the great things in your life the sirks that created this mission with respect to chimpanzees, the connection between you and
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chimpanzees. >> i think the important thing there really was that when i first began, it was thought that the difference between us humans and the rest of the animal kingdom was one of kind. we were totally separate, totally unique and totally superior. and the chimpanzees were so like us buy logically and i discovered behaviorally that science began to change the way it was thinking. and today it is accepted by most that we are part of, and not separated from this amazing, wonderful and exciting. >> rose: long chain of human evolution. >> yes. >> is it true that it's only the humans who are not necessary to the change? >> well, i don't know about that. i haven't heard that said. but maybe. i think the rest of the world would do better without it for sure. >> we actually have no function other than memory. >> one of my reasons is for the
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resilience of nature. but also the indommitiable human spirt, the people who tackle the impossible and succeed because they won't give up or they get others to follow them. and you know, the thing is that every sing e8 one of us has this indommitiable spirit. we've just got to find ways to allow people to grow it, and get out there. >> rose: she knows from a long long friendship. >> no, i believe that. i believe in-- i don't believe in the evilness at all. >> it is not innate evil trk is lack of education. lack of awareness, lack of understanding. >> lack of confidence. >> the development of fear. >> when what young people understand and we empower them to take action, roots and chutes is all about working out what you can do about something you care about. not something i tell you to care about. something you care about. >> you can change so much. >> you roll up your sleeves and get out together.
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do you it. and it's empowering. >> rose: great to see you. >> very good to see you, charlie, again. >> rose: thank you, and you, my dear. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at and charlie captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh
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>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you're watching pbs.
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>> the following kqed production was produced in high definition. [ theme music plays ] >> yes, "check, please!" people! >> it's all about licking your plate. >> the food is just fabulous. >> i should be in psychoanalysis for the amount of money i spend in restaurants. >> i had a horrible experience. >> i don't even think we were at the same restaurant. >> and everybody, i'm sure, saved room for those desserts. >> you bet.


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