tv Charlie Rose PBS May 27, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
er. >> rose: welcome to our program, tonight former n navy seal eric greitens. >> i want people to know that we all have a front line in our life. we all have a place where r hopes for the future and our hopes for the people we love come right up against the reality that the world presents to us. and what i've learned doing humanirian work with refugee families, going through navy seatraining, working with wounded and disabled veterans is that we all have an untapped cas passity for courage. and if we're able to tap into that capacity for courage and live with both the heart and the fist on our own front line, then we can win those fights. >> rose: we condition with michael experience on the global experience. >> asia 60% of the world's population will have these two economic giants that
will carry the rest of the east and south continent along. and they are starting to realize that they're going to b the lion's share of this growth that takes us to an economy that is three to four times it the size. we're worried about our impact on our environment and natural resources at the current time. but i think you know, most of us agree the are serious risks. but what's different is that asia, what we think ofs a global issue for asia is a long-term growth strategy issue. >> rose: we conclude with two remarkable female entrepreneurs, one from the united states, marissa mayer, the other from africa, susan mashibe. >>irst thing i learned about how leadership challenges are the same across cultures, countries, dustries,. and how do you hire, how do you motivate a team. how do you decide when to scale your business. all of those types of things that are very much the se. and some challenges that are really different. so i am working right now on
cal and maps. so we were talking a lot about how should google ms work in tanzania. how can we map different businesses from tanzania and get every business on-line. >> in america, like in schools like sanford, central park. >> and america doesn't wait for government to fund everything. it's actually the a lum few are giving so much back to the school and even at central park, it's actually the cities who want the park to be beautiful. so it's something we don't do in tanzania. and i think coming frommafter character, we always wt for the government to provide. and also the government sometime go and ask for foreign aid i think we shod be able to support the government and support the education. >> rose: a look at navy seals, a look at the global economy, and a look at a remarkable friendship when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose was provid by the
>> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. the raid that killed osama bin laden last monthas conducted by a team of u.s. navy seals. president obama has called them america's quiet professionals. the navy seals are one of the military's mast elite and resilient forces. they undergo rig royce training and carry out some of the most dangerous combat missions around the world. joining me is eric greitens, former navy sl w served in both iraq off began stand, received a bronze star for bravery. his book is called the heart and the fist, the education of humanitarian and the making of a navy seal. i'm pleased to have him on this program for the first time. welcome. >> thank you very much, charlie. >> rose: why did the navy seals, when you thought about your own history, and when you thought about the
demand of being a navy seal. >> so there was a moment for me where i had to make a choice about how i was going to live. i was finishing my time at oxford and hi written a ph.d on how intnational humanitarian organizations work with kids in war zones. and i remember i was at this event at rhodes house which is this mansion on the oxford campus. a real fancy place. >> rose: cecil rhodes. >> he had started it. and i remember i walked in to rhodes's house and i looked up. and in the rotunda there i saw that the names of american rhodes scholars who had left the university, had left oxford and inn world war ii to fight were etched into the marble. ese were people who had left to fight. and subsequently died. and i remember looking up and thinking that if they hadn't had made that choice, that i wouldn't be here looking up at that. i was really fortunate in my life. hi so my wonderful
teachers in high school, in college, in graduate school who had invested in me. and i felt like i needed to be of service as well. i needed to find a way to pay back. >> but you read about heroes. you appreciated heroes and you worried that you might not live in a time in which heroic action was called on. >> yeah. as a kid i can read all of these greattories about the nights of the round table and the spartans. and i read about world war ii and growing up i just wonded where is the adventure. where are the fntiers. where are the great causes. and it seemed to me like celebrities and sports figures had all of the attention. and it just, i was trying to search for my purpose and ultimately i fnd that through service to others doing both humanitarian work and then service in the field team. >> so you call the book the heart and the fist, meaning? >>. >> so the idea is we all have to live with both courage and compassion. and sometimes we live in a
society where people want to make a distinction between what it means to be good and what it means to be strong. and i think that in order to do anything well, in order to love anything well, we need to live with both courage and compassion. and that's the idea behind the heart and the fist. is that the heart provides us with our direction it provides us withur purpose, with our passion but to follow that passion requires every day perseverance and requir discipline and courage. and it's that combination of passion and perserance that helps people to win the fights on their own front line. >> you talked about your college education. >> yes. >> you weren't thrilled by college, not because it was duke but because it was colleg >> yeah, when i went to college, i remember first semester of my freshman year i was so disappointed because i expected to be thrown into, you know, this great experience that was going to help me to become someone who could-- . >> rose: and a love aware-- affair with learning.
>> exactly. >> rose: and it didn't happen. >> it didn't happen at first. eventually it did. i ended up getting a wonderful education at duke. hi wonderful professors and i also had a boxing coach, earl blair in durham, north carolina whos was also a really important part of my education. >> rose: so why boxing for you? >> well, my grandfather had boxed in the dression. and i remember growing up, i always heard these stories from him about boxing and boxers. and i was curiouabout it and then finally when i went to duke i had a chance to explore it. and i went down to the city in durham. i found a gym there. and iended up finding this great boxing coach, earl blair, my training partner derek humphrey and we fght together almost every night that ias in college. >> did you continue that when you went to oxford? >> i did. i went to oxford and oxford had a great boxing team and a really good boxing program and had a great coach there as well, henry dean. >> you alssaid at oxford you found the kind of joy about learning and about the pursuit of the poetry of life. >> yeah. one of the tngs that was
so great about oxford was that even when i was doing a masters gree, you didn't have to do a t of, you know, there wasn't this constant daily pressure behi the academic work. you were free to pursue anything that you wanted to do. and all you had to do at the end of the two years was to show up and pass an exam. so as long as you were on track to do that you can could pursue whatever international interests you had. and combined with that oxford had these long breaks so i could leave oxford and go to work with mother tesa's missionaries of charity. i could go to cambodia and work with kids who lost limbs to land mines am coy go to albania. so it was at ability to combine that great intellectual freedom with the possibility of really doing that service work abroad that madeor a great education. >> so you get out of oxford, you're 26. >> yeah. >> rose: in order to get not navy seals you have to be less than 28, right. >> exactly. >> rose: but why the seals for you? >> so part of what was the attraction of the seal teams was this incredible test.
lot of people have heard about buds, the basic underwater demolition seal training. considered to be the hardest military training in the world. >> rose: why is it coidered to be the hardest? >> well, they put you through some incredibly tough tes. so they ask you, for example, to swim 50meters underwater in your first week. they later ask you to swim down 50 feet and tie a knot. they do things like drown proofing where they tie your feet together and tie your hands behind your back and make you jump i the pool. and then swim 50 feeters with your feet tied together and hands behind your back. in o class we had 220 people. >> rose: are. >> and we went down to 20. >> rose: so 10%. >> in the original cla. >> rose: and those that don't make it, you have said, is because fear overcame them. >> yes >> rose: and the thing that had the people who succeeded, what did they-- how did they handle fear? >> so what happens is as you're going through buds, you are pushed to your
physical, mental and emotional limits and past. you're pushed way past the envelope of your talent to the core of your characte and what happens is every one is in great pain. everyone is afraid. >> rose: pain. >> great pain. searing pain, when are you going through a lot of the physical training. real serious pain. buwhat happens is people either start thinking about themselves and they think about all the pa that ey're in. they think aut a the fear about what might happen. and tt lieds them to collapse. others, who were in that great moment. i remember for myself there were times i was thinking if i were alone, i might not make it but there is a guy to my left and there's a guy to my right and they both need me to be strong. and if you can step outside of yourself even in that moment of great pain and think about what you have to do for others, that's what make you strong that's what gets you through and ultimately what makes these incredible teams. >> rose: how do you put that experience in contrast to
everything you've done with your life? >> going through buds, going through hell week was for su the hardest physical experience that i've ever had in my life. it was also, i would say, we call it the best time you never want to have again. >> rose: do you think that we all, though, would be better for ourselves if we demanded more of ourselves and challenged ourselves more physically than we do. >> yes. >> rose: and that we somehow were able to develop more confidence because we succeeded in a challenge that we could fail. >> yes. i think that how people develop confidence. is that you push yourself to a point of pain. you push yourself to a point of tier and then you find that you can be successful. you develop confidence and then you can move on to the next challenge. i think we all have to push ourselves. in order to do that effectively you also have to have the right kinds of teachers and friends and mentors to help you along that journey. >> rose: so you were there. you won the bronze star in afghanistan. >> in iraq. >> rose: you went to iraq and afghanistan.
>> i did. >> rose: so what did you do? so when iwas-- . >> rose: in the field in combat. >> so when i was in iraq i wa servings as th commander of an al qaa targeting cell. my unit's mission was to capturmid senior level al qaeda leaders. and i worked ve closely-- . >> rose: you wanted to capture them to interrogate them. >> it's always bet ferr you can capture one of the iraqi leaders or you can capture one of the al qaeda terrorist leaders. then you can question them and through that questioning, you can develop further intelligence that you can then use to put further pressure on the al qae network. >> rose: how did you first learn of the killing can of osama bin laden? >> so i was on a flight from st. louis to philadelphia when my flight touched down. i turned my phone on and i saw that there was a text message there that said obl, osama bin laden is kia, hhoo-wa, one of the seal cries. and it was a friendf mine who i served with whos was telling me that osama bin laden had been killed.
>> rose: and it's very important for seal team 6 t be anonymous to the rest ruff us. >> yeah, i think it's so impoant that we don't even discuss different unit designations and names. cause we have to make sure that these particular units and certn taccs, techniques-- techniques and procedures. we want to keep them cret so that these men can continue to put pressure on the al qaeda network. continue theirperations in the war on terrorism. >> ros so you complete your service. >> yes. >> rose: and then you go to a hospital. >> yea >> rose: and you see feow soldiersthere. and you decide what? >> so i went into the bethesda naval hospital, talking with these young men and women, 20, 21, 22 years old. and they were, had been seriously injured. one of them had lott post of his legs. another had lost use of his right arm, and his lung. another a good part of his
hearing. and so i said to each one of them, what do you want to do when you recover. and they all said to you i want to go backo my unit. but the fa was-- . >> rose: i want to go back to my unit. >> i want to go back to my unit. but the fact was that they weren't going to be able to go back to their unit. and you know, one of them had lost both of his legs, like i said. and he wasn't going to be able to go back to his unit. but he still wanted to serve. and when i asked him i said what would you want to do if you can't go back to your unit right away. he said to me, you know, i would really like to find a way to go back he and be a teacher. another one wanted to be a police officer. another one said to me that he wanted to go home to be a football coach a a mentor. so it just became really clear to me thatll of these men still had a desire to serve. anthat in addition to hearing thank u, they also needed to hear from all of us we still need you. so i left the hospital, i called two fendses who were disabled veterans. they put in the money from their disabity checks, i contributed my combat pay
and we used that to start the mission continues. and at the mison continues, we help wounded and disabled veterans to continue their mission of public service by working in our communities here at home, as citizen leaders. >> rose: where do you think i will find new five yearses? >> i think in five years the mission continues, along with other associated veterans organizations, will have won the fight for this generation of veterans. and i think that right now that is th link that i see is this fight to make sure that this generation of veterans comes home and that they win the battle on their new front lines living with thheart and the fist here at home. bend that, you know, could imagine many, many things but i'm not sure exactly. >> rose: politics? >> i have thought about politics. i have bn asked to run a number of times since i've come home from iraq and i've told people know because i think that the most important thing i can do right now isto win this fight for this generation. >> rose: you want people to
come awayeadi this book, this story of you andthis story of the seals and this story of your own passion of commitment to humanarian activities >> yes. >> rose: with what? >> i want ople to know that we all have a front line in our life. we all have a place where our hopes for the future and our hopes for the people that we love come cite up against the reality that the world presents to us. and what i've learned doing humanitarian work with refugee families, going through navy seal training, working with wounded and disabled veterans is that we all have an untapp capacity for courage. and if we're able to tap into that capacity for courage and live with both the heart and fist on our own front line then we can win those fights. >> rose: the book is called the heart and the fistment you also make the point before i close here that we percei of navy seals as the fittest of the fittest, the toughest of the toughest, the bravest of the brave and you want to make the point that not only are they that, in most cases, not only are they exquisite fighting machine, but they are also
something else. >> there is something else. it's that combination. everybody knows the physical strength and the courage and the tactical pficiency but it's also at dedication to service to others. it's that willingness to put others before self-lf. it's that part that actually makes a seal. so it's that combination of the heart and the fist that makes a goodarrior. it somebody who says i'm going to develop my strength and i'm going to use it to be of service to others. that's what makes a great seal is that combination of the heart and the fist. >> rose: tom bkaw who urged me to read this book and urged me to have eric on the show says abouthis ok, meet my hero eric greitens, the heart and fist are just the combination that we need. thank you an good luck. >> thank you vermuch. >> rose: michael spence is here. he is a nobel pre winning economist, he is a forme former-- formedean of standford's business school, currently a professor at the stern school of business at nyu. his latest book is you will cad the next convergence,
the future of economic growth in a multispeed world. i'm pleased to have him here at this table for the first time. welce. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: the next convergence means what? >> it means a good chunk of the developing world over a century long process will be more like us, advanced countries, high income and so o >> rose: but it's interesting that the industrial revolution, i'm getting this from the book, the industrial revolution which has had, what, began, in the 1750, continues into the next century. >> absolutely. >> rose: and it then converges about what the emerging nationses are doing and that's fair. >> yeah, what we now call the emergi economies essentially missed the first 200 years. and then got started after world war ii. >> but what's interesting to me now is the significce of population. in the industrial revolution t wasn't about population. in the emerging nations, in parts'about population. >> yes, it is. in multiple dimensions. i mean size s you know, if
you are succeeding and growing, is dependent on population so the two future economic giants are asia. they're east and south. they're china and india if they succeed ithis journey. and then a populion growth too hig i mean you can't grow your per-capita income. just eats up all the growth. >> rose: but on the other hand, if, in fact, you can do that, you have a market that provides you, a real engine foryour own economic engine. a demand for your product. >> exactly, yeah. >> now you see this, in the world we now live in, in two ways. the poor countries don't have that. the demand isn't big enough and it's not interesting. but at the level of a china now, it's big demand, it's interesting to us. and it's a driver of growth. and the emerging economieses are now big enough in the aggregate to sustain their own growth. >> rose: and where will they be in say 2050 emerging nations? >> you know, the china will
be-- that's long enough for them to camp up with us in per-capita income and they'll pass us in size. >> rose: they will ps us in size by 2030, won't they? >> well, before that. >> rose: 20,027, 25, something like that. >> yeah. >> rose: in per capita they will pass us when, 2050. >> it will take another 15 years or so at high-growth rates. and when they pass us their per-capita income will be a quarter of ours, say 12,000. it's now 3 or 4 lz yeah, exactly. >> is about 4. started out 500. >> rose: continue with the title. the future of economic growth in a multispeed wor watch. does that mean, multispeed? >> it meanses that we're struggling and probably have a period of slow growth and difficult unemployment. they've returned to precise is growth levels. >> 8 or 9, 10%. >> yeah. d china, india and brazil in that orde of speed of recovery. and of course, eventually
these guyses are going to slow down. an advanced country doesn't grow at those speeds so china is going to go through this difficult middle incom transition and then somewhere along the line out there they'll start to slow down to our growth rates, r normal growt rates, two and a half, three percent. >> rose: it is not a zero sum game for t united states and the west though, is it. >> absutely not. the global economy in the next 20 years, charlie, will at least triple. now that presents lots of problemses in terms of whether our natural resources on the planet, you know, can withstand it. but with an global economy like that there's lo of room for them and us. and if we are on our game, you know, we'll be, you know, technological leaders. what we won't be is dominant anmore. >> ros okay. first of all, if we are on our game, what does th an? >> it really means two things. it means the things that we ve nowhichre the highly innovative, highly competitive parts of our economy in the tradable, global tradable part. but it's going to mean upping our game with respect to the opportunitiesor our
middle income group which are declining. and whe incomes are stagnating. and i think that's where our kind of main challenges are in the next ten years or so. >> rose: in the immediate time, it is an unemployment rate at 8 or 9%. >> that's right. >> and the guess, nobody has a crystal ball, an economist forecasts are dreadful, usually, including mine. but i think there's a good chance there is a structural and not just a cyclical problem of recovery from the crisis. >> rose: and i hear what you are saying but tell me what this structural nature of it is. >> it's that as the global economy structurally changes and ves up what we sometimes call value added change, they are more competitive in the lower value added parts of those chains, value added per person and those move offshore. so the employment opportunities in the tradableector of the economy for the middle income group are declining. and that means their options are basically in the
nontradable side of the economy. >>ou tk about tradable and nontrabld. give me that distinction. >> so tradable is goods and services that can be traded internationally. produced in one place, consumed in another. it's a growing step because of the trade and services that wenow see using the internet. and nontradable is stuff that has to be produd here. government, most of health care, construction, retail, hotels, restaurants, food services. it's a very large part of the economy. it's an important part of the economy. >> rose: aren't you on some commission as looking at the question of unemployment and employment today? >> not on a commission can. i've written a paper that tries to track the structural evolution of the economy and as a way of jump-starting a discussion about how to deal with it, yeah. >> rose: are we dointhe right thing? >> not yet. i think it's going to take a bit because some of the right thing involve investing or fixing investment in the part of the-- that are failing in infrastructure n simplifying
the tax structure, energy policy and so on. and while we have a fiscal situation like this, those are likely to be kicked aside for a while. >> rose: and is that the worst thing we could do? >> to kick aside-- investments in education, infrastructure? >> yeah, it is. if we want to solve-- most people agree, charlie that we can't solve the structural problems overnight. you know, that's going to take a sustained period of effort and investment and even experimentation. no of us knows the answers. and we have got to do it together. government, private sector, republicans, democrats. but it nota good thg to ki it down the road. >> rose: and the president, that's what he said in his state of the union. >> absolutely. >> rose: and he's right. >> yes, he is right. i mean, but we do have to solve the fiscal situatio and that's probablyoing to take some compromise. it's a little hard to see right now. >> rose: compromise in terms of what the president calls investments and what the deficit challenge demands. >> yeah, i think the real problem is that if one side wants no revenue increase in
the form of tax increases, then all future investment has to come out ofome current program or redistributive part of the government's operation. and those are draconian choices. >> rose: so therefore should we as an economist have a revenue increase? >> should we have more taxes in order to meet these obligation >> the way i have thought about it, charlie, is we should probably have increased taxes for a period of te to get past a deficit that we created for ourselve. >> rose: is it that time now though. >> yes. >> rose: so therefore we should not have extended the bush tax cuts can. in the interest of dealing with the deficit. >> well, that's a delicate question because we also don't want to destroy whatever recovery we have which is fragile. >> rose: and that's like a stimulus to the econom >> yes, exactly. >> rose: to the covery. >> so there's a debate going on about what the withdrawal rate should be and maybe-- but so my time horizon is slightly longer like two to five years, we should start
investing heavily. >> rose: so you are saying that is what we should do today. >> yeah. >> rose: is restrain the investment, spending d try to deal with the deficit >> yeah. >> rose: through some program of austerity. >> yes. >> rose: and then four or five years out we then kickback in with incentives, with investments in terms of infrastructure, education, science, technology. >> absolutely. >> rose: all the tngses th wildeterme our future. >> well, at least augment it. yes. s that's i think where i uld like to go. and i think we could probably accomplish a lot. i don't-- i cannot tell you that globalization as it evolves in terms of structure has no distributional affects. including on subsets of our population. i mean i just-- it may very well. >> rose: we lose jobs to globalization. >> we do. >> rose: that's a fact. >> uh-huh. >> rose: so what should we do to try to countermeasure? >> well, we should try-- let
me answer it this way. in an emerging economy structural change and growth are the same thing. so you cnot keep theobs that you had five years ago. i mean in china the middle income transition is letting the labor intensive things go to vietnam and bangladesh and india, even. and-- create the new ones. and in a sense, that's what we have to dtoo. we can't go get a bunch of those back. >> rose: so we have to recognize the change in our economy that came there globalization. >> exactly. and then wee got to do the best wcan by investing in people, in the knowledge and technology base of our economy to create alternatives that are both rewarding and decent in terms of income, at a very wide range of levels, of education, skill. >> rose: so what do you think of the level of debate in the congress? >> well, it's encouraging that there is a serious debate going on about the fiscal situation now. >> rose: meaning the commission th bouls and
simpson in part. >> that was definitely a serious error but even in congress now, even if you think doesn't look like very well organized debate, at least they are debating something important, you know, based on principles that various sides believe. in and that's good. i mean if this were a situation of not so benign neglect, i think you and i would be very boried. >> rose: indeed. when people who are in this debate talk to me, they say that one of the great questions that's going to come out of this today is the role of government, agree? >> i do. and i think there are two streaks in america. we have an ideaological streak. i don't mean that on one side or the other but both. and we have a pragmatic streak. and they come and go. we need a pragmatic, this pragmatic streak to come out. >> rose: pragmatism is operating in a world-- think of a century long journey i try to describe this is a trip we're only taking once.
we don't get to learn from the past what it is like to have a country the size of china go by. we just have to deal with it as it happens. and there's very good things and tough things to deal with. andragmatism means thking about it, maybe even experimenting with potential solutions and the role of government emerges from trying to make it inclusive for all of our citizens wade through this path. after we finish that we can go back to debating how big the government should be. >> how serious do you think the sovereign debt issue is in impact on the global economy? >> i would say the risk level is higher in europe. precisely because of the periphery countries but also because the collective decision-making problem with 16 o som 0d countries is much more difficult. it's not-- you know, a sovereign debt crisis in europe is not the most likely outcome but it's a pret big risk.
>> rose: pretty big risk. >> what that means is that you know, there's an uncomfortably high probability that the europeanwill get stuck trying to bail these countries out. >> rose: the european union in terms of-- but they're setting conditns and theye going through, i mean germany and-- they're-- buin the end they'll have to bail them out s that what you are -- >> spose the people in greece, you know, who clearly haven't agreed how they are going tohare their portion, can't share it i don't see how the europeans can come in and bail tm out if they haven't even agreed internally how they're going to sort this out. and so-- . >> rose: so if you were the european union would you make what conditions on giving further debt relief? >> i believe that they have to absorb in each of the countries that has a problem a significant share of the burden and they have to do it cedably which means internally. politically they have to agree on an sterity program that doesn't look like it will be disrupted by an election or a demonstration of some massive sign.
>> rose: hard to do that when you have been living a certain way for a long time. >> it's very difficult and that is where the risk comes from. >> re: if you look at the way the united states is going in contrast to this, it used to be thought of that we had some kind of advantage, you know, because the apples and the googles and all of the technology were coming out of here. >> right. >> rose: that we had an innovative and entrepreneurl culture. is that no longera-- is that no longer an advantage for the united states because other places, espeally china are developing the same kinds of talent and skill and even cultural change? >> well,t's a huge advantage for us. part because we're still really good at it it's one of the great strengths of the economy. and even if there are other places, principally europe and japan but prospectively china will get good at t we'll still be good. it's like playing tennis at
wimbledon. you don't have to be the only good player to have a pretty good time. and i expect us, to have that as a huge strength for a long, long time. the way i describe it to people is we were dominant after world war ii. we helped build the vanquished back up in europe and in japan. then we had a lot of company an we've done very well. in another 20 years we're going to have a lomore company and i expect us to do very well in this dimension. >> rose: but also i think i hear you saying the united statesas to have an awarenthat we are no longer where we were and therefore we need to make choices having to do with an awareness of that reity. >> we should be aware of this evolvingtructure around us and i think we should be psychologically prepared not to be dominant. in, you know, i mean wran this place for a long time. >> rose: fair enough. so we ran the world. >> yeah. >> rose: since world war ii. >> yeah, absolutely. >> rose: and then we did it
in partnership. >> rose: syou sit down with your country. >> compaqly. >> rose:nd you say to them, you have to realize that while you were still a big boy, you are n the only big boy around. >> yeah. we could be first in the cls but you know we're good-- i mean i guess the nearest analogy is to britain, you know, systemickically-- not declining as the country in an economy, but-- . >> rose: is austerity working in britain today? in terms ofs impact on their economy? >> i think the jury is out. >> rose: too early to tell. >> well, it's going to slow growth in the short run and whether or not it gives, it's pri they're paying for more sustainable growth in the long run, i think is, if you forced me to bet i would say probably yes. they're making, they're making an investment now in their future growth. >> rose: by getting tough with themselves. >> yes. >> rose: and that's what we have to do. >> eventually. >> rose: why not now?
aren't you saying that is what we need to do now so we can invest later? we need to get the-- we need to come hard to grips with the amount of debt we have and unless we get on that pattern. >> yeah, all i'm really saying we' exing a crisis tt is still somewhat, where the recovery is still a little fragile and it would be a lot easier to invest in the future if we hadt dug ourselves into th hole fiscally. >> rose: we did it why? >> we did it because, you know. >> rose: because we never thought we would have to pay. >> we didn't realize our economy was on an unsustainable path. we had real good employment in the last 20 kerr. >>s. we created the employment in government and health care. we probably will keep going and in terms of growth we drove it with consumption based on inflate add set values fueled by death. and that consumption is gone permanently. >> rose: if you were a young man comingut of coege today and you have a young daughter. >> yeah, i do.
>> rose: what would you urge them to do? would you urge them to-- in terms of where the future is. >> i think which would repeat you what said. it is education. and-- it's education and i think you want to be playing in the sand box called the global economy so you can go where the eitement and the opportunities are. if your heart takes you in that direction. i mean you know, my-- my young daughter wan to b a writer. i'm to the going to tell her to study business and learn chinese. >> rose: right. >> but no, i me, that i think is the best advic do not let yourself get trapped by low levels of education and limited opportunitieses on the employment front if you can. >> rose: what ought to be the great debate of our time? >> yeah, i think if we can stabilize ourselves and i believe we will eventually, here and in europe thorn it is how do we run this
behemoth where the power is increasingly sort of decentralized. i mean i think we've denstrated that unregulated markets with no real oversight occasionally produce bad results or unsustainable paths but we have-- it's a great challenge, i any, for a generation to build the regulatory government structures that match the level of integration in the global economy. >> rose: do we need an inteational standardn that? >> in terms of international governance, in terms of, so that compani, you ow, you want to have what you had in ireland where companies were flocking to ireland that kind of thing. >> you want to avoid that so you need some degree of standardization but i don't think it will be complete how many only nayity. the europeans had this problem. -- said you can't have a monetary union without a political union. >> rose: de say that. >> probably a strong statement but i doubtf the level of fiscal decentrallization they have is viable in the long run.
they're-- they have to constrain each other to some extent. or you'll getrresponsible behaor. >> rose: what happened to japan. >> japan had, absolutely-- . >> rose: and what did which learn from it is my question. >> people are still worrying about that. and the chinese are worried about various aspects of history but the bottom line is they had an absolutely gigantic asset bubble fueled by debt. but making the one we just had look somewhat feeble. i mean justs massive increases of debt. d asset values that were essentially transitory. and then they didn't really aggressively attack them as i understand it immediately following. and so they've sort of been limping along recovery. >> rose: they did too little. the first thing. >> too little, too late. >> rose: too little, too late and that was what they were trying to-- with that lesson in mind, i mean, and they were trying to do with the estimate plus program
when the economic crisis hit but they ran into a political reality. a lot of people in the administration will say they thought stimulus should be 1.3 trillion, not 700 billion. >> yes. and that percentage terms that would make it more like the chinese one. >>ose: exactly. >> 9% or whatever it was of gdp the china has enormously great strength, you know, as we doin, you know, technology and so on. so we look at the economies, it's kind of confusing and yet it has structural problems. >> rose: the other thing that interests me beyond all of this and sort of the structure and all that is the risk of water, food, fuel scarcitis. >> absolutely. no, so-- so this is kind much post writing the back but asia 60% of the world's population it will have these two economic giants which will carry the rest of the east and south continent
along. and they are starting to realize that they're going to be the lion's share of this growth that takes us to an economy that is three to ur times the size. we're worried about our impact on our environment and natural resources at the current size. but ihink unow mostf us agree there are serious risks. but what's different is that asia, what we think ofs as a global issue for asia is a long-term growth strategy. they can't finish t journey if they follow the path that we follow in all our predecessors in the developing world follow. >> in terms of pollution or anything else. >> andor even energy consumption. and so surprisingly, i believe they will in their own self-interest take the lead in trying to find, we don't know what it is,ut we know pieces of it, to try to find a new model, a new pattern that is less energy incense-- tense and less damang to the natural sources. >> rose:ou won your nobel
prize in economicses. did you do this with joe stiglitz, did you receive this at the same time as joe stiglitz or am i stupid? no, not at a there were three of us, george akerlof and stiglitz and me. joe and george knew each other and i met joe after i did the work. we weren reay working tother. we weren't working on exactly the same thing. >> rose: but did you come to exactly the same conclusion sms. no, i think you would call them slightly different pieces of a puzzle. >> rose: this book is all cad the next convergence, the future of economic growth in a multispeed world, michael spence, thank you. >> thank you, charlie. >> marissa mayer and susan mashibe is here, marissa is vice president of product management at google. the company's first female engineer. mashibe is the founder and execute director of njet, a company that services private aircraft. she is the first woman in east africa to become both a
certifiepilot and engineer. the two have snt the st month together. they were paired through a meoring program cosponsored by t state dertment and "fortune" magazine. one of the things i love most about sitting at this table are moments like this. two women on different paths talking about their experiences. it all began because we happened to be at the same dinner last evening and to listen to the two of them, i said, this is the kd of experience and the kind of people i wanted tohare with you. i am please to have marissa and susan here to talk about what it ask they are doing in this relationship, this mentoring program and to understand how they see the own businesses from different perspectives. so welcome. >> thank you very much for having us. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: let's talk about your life first. you two got to know each other because of the program. what's the program? >> well, the program is a mentoring program where the state department and "fortune" magazine gather 30 women executives and entrepreneurs from arld the world and developing countriesing bring them to the u.s. for the month of may, basically.
and pair them with various executive women around the country. and i was lucky to be paired with susan. >> rose: and so once are you paired, what happens? >> well, susan came t california. and we worked together. she came to google. we she staye with me in my home so we had time to debrief at night, also experience different social aspects and really just talk about so of our challenges and me of the opportunities. >> rose: what have you learned from her. >> i have learned so much. i think that there are things i have learned about how leadership challenges are the same as cross cultures, as cross-countries can, as cross industries. you know, how do u hi. how do you motivate a team. how do you decide when to scale your business. all of those, all of those types of things are very much the same. and some challenge that are really different. so im working right now on local and maps. so we were talking a lot about how should google maps rk in tanzania. how n we map different businesses from tanzania and get every business there on-line. and there are all kinds of interesting challenges and
proble to work on. so some things are very much thsame and some very different. >> rose: how did you get to know about the program. >> i got to know the program from the local u.s. embassy in tanzania. >> rose: and they said there is this wonderful program where you can mentor and will you have an american mentor. >> yes. >> rose: and you can go-- pu were educated in michigan opinions yes. >> rose: college was in michigan. >> yes, western michigan university. >> rose: and did you get your pilot licence while you were there? >> yes. >> rose: why did you want to be a pilot? >> long story. but i knew i wanted to be a pilot ever since i was four years old, yes. >> rose: what was it at that time that made you see planes in the sky or -- >> actually, my parents, we were living in a small town in tanzania on the shores of lake taganika and my pns are flying away, leaving me behind with my grandmother too ago love me. and i remember seeing that
aircraft taking off, and i was so hurt at four years ol i didn't cry. but i thought if i could fly that airplane, they wouldn't leave me behind again. >> rose: and you once thought you would be a trip 7 pilot, that was the goal and the dream. >> yes, then i d an opportuny to come to t u.s. for training and my aim was to become a triple 7 pilot, cap pain-- captain actually for delta airlines. that was my dream. >> rose: you also, i said was an engineer but you explained to me last night that you have the essential skills of anirplane mechanic. >> yes. >> rose: i mean qu fix the engine. >> yes, i can fix the aircraft. >> rose: so with this kind of skill,his kind of core compens, you go back to tanzania and you create the company immediately or was it later? >> it was later. it was not in the plan.
>> rose: it was not part of your plan. >> no. >> rose: what was your plan. >> my plan like i said was to fly for delta. and then i finished my pilot training in 2001. and i think you will remember what happened september 11th. and we saw the industry crumbling down, pilots being laid off, and at the time, i didn't see a future because was not american. and a new american company was going to sponsor a working visa for a foreign pilot when there are smany americans needed that job very much at that time. so i said okay, i'll go home and start something while i'm waiting for the industry to get better and i wi try again. >> rose: and so then you stard your business. >> yes can. i started a business. >> rose: what was the business. >> the business is tanzani tanzania-- tanjet and it's provide logistic support for corporate aircraft. and even how it started, i
try to go home twice to look for a job and no one would hire me because they say oh, you are overqualified. the kind confi aircraft maintenance you have experienced, we don't do here. i used to do heavy inspection, those are scheduled inspections. and specialize in corporate aircraft. and so coming back at my work i remember meeting a client from south africa and talking to tm that i'm looking forward to going home because pie visa is running out. and they say hey, actually we go to-- can you employ me. i was waiting to doig in. even to load luggage as long i will be in the aircraft it was not aut getting padz. so they asked me for my resume. they say why dow want to work for anyone with your experience, you can employ yourself and you can provide the services for people like us. so that is when the idea started rrz for tanjet. >> for tanjet.
so wise words. whatou he learned from this experience of being with one of the most recognized womenin technology? >> actually i ilearn mostly threthings. on a personal level, also on a business level, and also on a community level. we can start with the personal level. working shadowing marissa to work and home give me a chance actually to see hout she interacts with the familiment she's a very busy lady. >> rose: huge. >> successful, but yet she's very passionate about her family. she makes time for family. she, analso for friends. and she was very kind enough to take me along and meet some of her friends. and then she introduced me to this new world of experience in american lifestyle from appreciating art. she's a scientist who loves art. and now i like art because we went to museums and i met her father, mother, brother
and her husband, of cours and so-- . >> rose: did you meet larry and ser gei. >> not on this trip. however-- . >> rose: very busy >> i met-- . >> rose: heim's sure she can arrange it. >> i met larry in tanzania as a client. >> rose: he came in here -- >> they came to kilimanjaro in 2007. >> rose: have they climbed kilimanjaro. >> i think they were visiting. >> rose: ted conference event. >> and kill man-- kilimanjaro buthat was in 2007. >> rose: so whats your eam now? >> my dream is actually now to go and scale my business. scale my business. and also to give back to the community. going back again to on the business perspective on what i have gained is actually how do you choose your team. how you hire good people. and how do you motivate your team. and then how do you grow your company. i'm at a level where i'm doing everything. but now i know that i need
to let it go and for community, i have learned that is something very important, actually fitting with marissa and her friends, is that actually in america, like in schools like standford, central park, in america doesn't wait for government to fund every thing. it'sctually the alumni are giving so much back to the school and even at central park, it's actually the cities without want to the park to beeautiful. so it's something that we don't do in tanzania. and i think coming from africa we always wait for the government to provide and also the government sometimes goes and asks for foreign aid to i think we should be ab to support the government and support the education, giv back. >> rose: that's an extraordinary kind of recognition, you know. give us a sense of where you see the mos important factors that are happening
today in terms of google and in terms of 57 el and in terms of sort of the-- world. >> i think technology is just going so far and fast. we are here this week with tech crunch can. they had their conference where they had like 50 companies launch. it's amazing. >> rose: new start-ups. >> launching their business this week and it's such a strong field. there is just so much going on in transportation and social and mobile. all kinds of different things. i think mob sill really one of the most important stories happening right now. because your phone is just amazing. you have a computer in your pocket, it knows where are you, it has your contacts and we're seeing just a huge amount of adoption. google maps for mobile is inalled in 200 million tivesers phones. that's huge. and now we're seeing more traffic on maps via mobile thania desktop. that is the first time that has happened in application it is just something really exciting happening across the technology fieldn all kinds of different areas but mobile is especially interesting.
>> rose: does social media provide a challenge or an opportunity for google? >> i think it provides a huge opportunity. if you look as cross our product suite all of our products can get bet ferr we understa a little bit about social. so things like cial search. the best answers available, in terms of reference material, if you searchor something like tanzania, you can get the reference terial or you can get materi thats was written by your friends about their tripto tanzania. so bringing social aspect in there makes sense. on maps. where are my flends. where have my friends been. which restaurants have they eaten at, which do the like. >> rose: local connections and time and place. where are we with respect to privacy. >> i think privacy is really important. because our business is built on trust. and so for us we really rely on three pnciples. be transparent wa, data dow have and how do you use it, give the users control. do they want you to know about that, do they want you to be invisible and
anonymous and also giving choice are. there ways to use the product that don't, that ultitely doesn't cause them to give up some of their privacy. i think those are the key principles, transparency, price and control. >> rose:ow do you use it in your own business. >> beside e-mail. >> beside social media, beside facebook, besides -- >> yes, just social media mostly but something that acally i'm going to do with google is actually to digital map the whole of tanzania. >> the point that marissa made earli so this is what is has accomished, other than a learning experience, are you going to help them map tanzania. >> yes. >> rose: what will you do? go to -- >> everything, the world need to know tanzania if you google like if you google tanzania you shouldn't be able to see this is certificate engeti, this is mahala. those are the destinations
many people dream going and so now they can see digital format. >> deliver to google maps. so go ahead. >> so yes, what we are going to do is actually we are going to mobilize the local university it department, they are going to participate on this pot program of mapping. this would also benefit google and also the students on it to get hands-on experience. because they ed to go with the mobile. and position and enter codes and so that's something that is very eiting that they're going to do. >> rose: so this is the begin of a long friendship, isn't it. >> yes, i think one of our goals is to you have a lifelong friendship. it's been really wonderful. >> rose: it's great of to you stop by. thank you for to meet u. great to meet you. thank you for joining us. see you next time