tv Charlie Rose PBS June 14, 2013 11:00pm-12:01am PDT
>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with the great john mcenroe. >> well, the economy's going to try to do a lot of things, which is one open up our doors to people, for example, in harlem which is right around the corner from me. so it would be nice to have some of these great young athletes instead of playing basketball, for example, or football, that they choose tennis. and that there's a means and a ways possibly that they could get themselves from doing something possibly not good to possibly doing something great for their country. >> rose: and one of the great golf writers around, jaime diaz, talks about the u.s. open at marion. >> and tiger used to do it better than anyone. just like jordan would do it at
the end of the game. that was allure and tiger had that allure. he still has it but he's been fighting himself to some extent and he hasn't been able to do it at a major and that's the ult mast test and that's the thing he lived for. drama now is seeie can do that again. rumsfeld. he calls it "rumsfeld's rules." >> and the greatest risk of people not measuring and not knowing progress, not having metrics is in nonprofits and government. because in business you fail, you go out of business. if you do it badly and you don't measure and you don't get better and improve and you're not competitive you go out of business. the philanthropy can go on and on and on because they have endowment, they spend the endowment, the business doesn't. in government it's always other people's money you're using and people treat other people's money differently than they treat their own. it's just inevitable. it breaks my heart when i see it in government.
from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: john mcenroe is here, his name is synonymous with world class tennis. as a player, he won 104 titles, including seven grand slams. his rivalrys with bjorn borg, jimmy connors and ivan lendl have shaped the standards of modern excellence. today he's determined to make the game more accessible to talented young people in the united states. in 2010 he opened the john mcenroe tennis academy in new york. he also just returned from the french open where raffa nadal captured his eighth ground. all eyes now turn to wimbledon which begins on june 24. as always, we're pleased to have john mcenroe back at this table. welcome. >> good to see you again. >> rose: what are you doing with your life right now? >> well, my life is mainly tennis. i play tennis.
i'm on the old foege gives tour, i call it. >> it's exhibitions? >> it's somewhere between an exhibition and real event. we go out to play but we want to entertain but there's good players out there, sampras, agassi, so i've got my hands full as well as a guy like bjorn borg, my great rival ivan lendl comes back into the game after 17 years being out. i also do the commentary, as you mentioned, so i do the majors and the this tennis academy is probably the newest venture to try to bring a spark, the energy the life back to new york tennis because the last guy that probably made it out of this area was my brother and we're talking 25, 30 years ago. so to me not only does it continue to be too inaccessible and unaffordable for most kids it's also the athletic part of it, the game, has become more physical, more athletic, djokovics and nadals of the world, we need to find the best
athletes and make it affordable to play. so that's my goal to get the sport back to where it was and i guess i'm biased, a heyday like '70s and '80s where it seemed amazing to getting something going now and getting kids that can afford to play and getting great players out of this area. >> rose: do you believe-- because i do believe this-- there's no former player who seems to love the game and want to give back more to the game than you. >> tell me more. (laughs) >> rose: i'm serious about that! >> i think there's other players that want to do that. >> rose: but you do it. you're out there. you tried davis cup. >> i did try captaining davis cup briefl that was difficult because i was begging players to play so i found that problematic. connors, actually, commented for a couple years back in the owned of my career '91/'92. he was like "son --" he likes to call meson. "you go do that. i don't like the meetings. so i walked into this thinking okay this could be different at the very least but it turned out
that this was something that turned out to be good for me because people saw a side of my personality that i don't think they've seen a lot to get on the court. like god forbid i had a sense of humor and maybe i didn't take my life quite that seriously. >> rose: (laughs) or you could be right about something. >> and that i was right every single time. but that gave me sort of a forum but kept me close to the game which i realized as time went on as you get older t-- you don't know about this, charlie-- but you get perspective. >> rose: you lose a step or what? >> no, you get that -- i said you're young. but i meant you're not as old as i am. or you don't look as old. >> rose: (laughs) >> you get a better sense of perspective. as you get older you appreciate what you were given, whatever this god-given ability was and that i want to give back. i was given a lot, as it turned out, that -- when i was younger i was like forget tennis, i don't want any part of it when i'm 30 plus.
and then you realize what the hell else can i do? then you realize you want to find a niche and your way back in that's comfortable for everyone. >> rose: it's genuinely, i think, that you have shown such a commitment to the game. it's a sense of how much you love it is clear. especially to all those people who love the game. >> well, i think also maybe when i comment i think that comes across that there's an honesty ands that desire, especially this country. i mean, i think the game's healthy in other parts of the world, particularly europe. but here there's some struggles going on. i'd like to try to address that and be part of a renaissance. >> rose: in terms of getting it accessible to young people with great athletic ability and started early so they can compete with international players? >> exactly. i mean, if you had told me 30 years ago-- people are going to laugh at me now-- that golf would be destroying tennis in the ratings i would have laughed at you. and there was palmer and nicklas and gary player.
there were incredible players but we were way bigger. now we're lucky if we beat poker >> rose: because what? >> well, i think that we haven't reached out enough and tried to grab the fan as you're well aware doing a show on cable. there's a lot more stations out there, there's a lot more things to watch. our game takes a long time. at times you don't even know when it starts or finishes. people can't figure out the scoring system. we could go on for hours talking about the things that we haven't done well enough. if your best players are from spain and serbia and switzerland-- which our three best players are-- you're talking arguably three -- two of the greatest -- two t two greatest and djokovic who's blowing by people like myself as we speak, we need to do a better job of promoting those people so that people here know them better on a somewhat perm level. at least they know something about them. and i think we've done a very poor job of that. >> rose: what will the academy do? >> well, the academy will try to
do a lot of things which is, one open up our doors to people, for example, in harlem, which is right around the corner from me. so it would be nice to have some of these great young athletes instead of playing basketball, for example, or football, that they choose tennis. and that there's a means and a ways possibly that they could get themselves from doing something possibly not good to possibly doing something great for their country. and also i look at it as, like, whether we're in partnership, possibly, with the u.s.ta or we do it on our own, we're looking to sort of find ways that together with either corporate money, obviously we'd like to raise much as possible to give as much back to scholarships, for example, but train good kids. kids don't understand in a way what it takes, you know? they think it's -- and the parents, worst of all, are way -- i don't think they get it whatsoever. and they look at me and they're telling me how they think their kids should be taught and i find that -- i'm like wait a second, i know something about this
game. >> rose: (laughs) yeah, wait a minute. >> i was pretty good at it. you're telling me how i should approach this with your kids? so they sort of look at me in some ways like "he's the old guy with the wood racket." but i'd like to think hopefully people would trust what i'm trying to do here because i think it's a fantastic sport. it is a relatively safe sport if you think about it compared to american football. you look at the obesity problem, for example, which is not getting any better. so there's a lot of positives to doing it. >> rose: let's talk about where pro tennis is today in terms of what happened. so french we saw nadal win the eighth french open. a new record. >> borg was my great idol, bjorn borg. >> rose: your idol or competitor? >> well, he started out as a semi idol because he was playing well before i was. he was at 15 he was two and a half years older than me. fortunately, he took me under his wing and accepted me early on in my career which was a huge moment for me and then we became great rivals but he was like a human back board.
he was unbeatable on clay. he played eight times and won six of the eight and he only lost to one guy, the same guy, twice. nadal to me is the greatest -- he's better than borg, better than anyone by far that i've ever seen on the surface. he'd be like the ultimate nightmare. >> rose: that because he's mastered top spin? because of his speed around the court? because of his power? because he know it is game on clay? >> keep going. >> rose: all of that. >> he's lefty. we are smarter people. >> rose: there are some arguments about that. >> you only see them 10% of the time on a court so the spin is different. so for, like, a federer, for example, who's got the one-handed back hand you have this vicious forehand of nadal's coming up above his head. so that's where you see a guy like djokovic who's a little bit taller better able to handle that ball perhaps than roger can. and anyone has an unbelievably difficult time. i will say, having watched what i thought was a very good french
open -- >> rose: i did, too. >> serena is the greatest female player that ever lived in minute. but djokovic/nadal was the greatest play court match you ever watched. nadal beat him, it took everything he had. djokovic wanted it more than he would have had niz n his life. this would have completed the career grand slam, he would have one every one of them, put up there with the awl time greats and he was ahead in the fifth set and it was beyond belief to me how exciting it was. >> raffa won. >> raffa won, he got a little bit lucky. joke it have hit the net on some. he was up a break, a weird thing happened at net. he blew it. it was like a ten-year-old mistake. if a 10-year-old had done it at my tennis academy i would have been like "what are you doing?" and it was djokovic who was the number one player in the world. so that caused him to lose his serve in the faith but heft lucky to get there. nadal is the ultimate animal that you have to play. he would be like your worst
nightmare ever to play for me. if i had to make the situation that i'd least want to be in it would be playing him on clay. >> rose: in the finals. >> any round. the finals at least i got there. >> rose: (laughs) how good is he on grass, snow >> he's great on grass. >> he. >> rose: he's won wimbledon. >> i think there's an argument to be made that he's the greatest player that ever lived. i talked about roger being the best ever. i'm starting to change a little bit because their career head to head, raffa is 20-10 against roger. >> rose: how much of that is the sflefrj >> a fair amount. a lot of them will r clay. i think roger has a slight edge but that's a pretty big difference. >> rose: he's 20-10. >> 20-15 against djokovic. way one sided against murray. 20-4 against ferrer who's the number five player in the world. he's to me, nadal, the greatest
clay courter match and the greatest match ever which is the wimbledon final with federer four years ago. >> rose: how good is his health? >> that's the question that i try to go in the locker room, raffa, can you give me like a like he's going to tell me. but i think -- the knee looks like he's gimpy in the locker room. he's limping. but i think he's sort of -- >> rose: he puts more pressure on his body than ever. >> rope-a-dope. like "oh, god i can't move." and you're out there and it's like you're so full of it. give me a break. >> rose: but he abuses his body. >> not on clay, though. on clay he's figured out the sliding and he's done that exceptionally well. the problem is when he moves to hard court the way he hits a clay court-- which is -- which slides, it doesn't do that as easily on hard court so the knees in particular take a lot more of the beating when he's on hard courts. he doesn't glide the way roger does. djokovic is somewhere in the middle. so i'm a little bit concerned about how his body will hold up despite the fact that he's an
incredible athlete and very, very flexible. >> rose: if you include all surface, he's the best player in the world. >> best all-around player in the world on all surfaces. he can win anything he'll be the one-seed at wimbledon. i would say raffa to me would drop to the fourth most likely guy to win that tournament this year. >> rose: roger only wins now when his serve is working? >> he's going to win only -- >> rose: that's what what anna winter says. >> let her dress him. >> rose: (laughs) she does! >> and he looks pretty good. is but let us talk about the tennis. roger is -- to me his only chance is at wimbledon. to win. >> rose: really. >> i mean, the guy's -- you can make an argument at worst he's the second or third greatest player that ever lived. so it's not -- the open to me is the -- the hard court beat him up a little bit too much.
but on grass, the physical recovery of having to play three four, five hours is the part that's the most difficult as you get older. if you have a tough match, it's tougher to bounce back. >> rose: you will never say they're the greatest player in the world until they win four slams in the same year? because that's what rod laver did? >> he was my idol so i don't want to say anyone is better than rod laver. >> rose: where would you put yourself in all of this? >> i have looked at my name over the years and thought highly of myself, particularly in the mid-'80s. >> rose: (laughs) yes? >> and as we move into the 21st century, my name seems to be dropping slowly but surely out of the top elite, maybe top -- certainly five and i'm hoping that puo-le like yourself or anna win tour since she's such an expert and some of the other experts will keep me the top ten. so i'm hoping to remain in the top ten. i think at my peak i deserve something. you could argue whether or not
you thought ivan lendl or -- if it was me or lendl. >> rose: is it's easy for you to say that in ivan lend? >> it's easy for me to say it if he says that i'm better than him. or jimmy connors or boris becker who had a tremendous game at wimbledon. >> he did. >> rose: you could go back -- why didn't you win -- >> the french? >> rose: yeah, the french. >> well, i choked. i guess that's probably the main reason. >> rose: you choked. >> i choked. i had hit in the palm of my hands and i just sort of -- it's like missing free throws. it was like watching shaq shoot a free throw at the end. i just blew it when i was five points away. >> rose: you didn't wayne grand slam after you were 26 years old did you no. >> no, i do not. but that's for another -- you should come back and have me because we probably need about a half hour to talk about that. >> rose: (laughs) have you thought about that? >> i've thought about it. i took time off when i was 27, i had my first son who's now 27 years old. so at that particular time i
believed i could juggle family. i'm no long we are my ex-wife tatum o'neal, we had three kids. it's tough. roger federer has little twins -- >> rose: he's handled that well. people say he'll be distracted and he hasn't. >> a lot better than i did. it's not easy to me. it's difficult to sort of how much time to spend with your kids, how much time you're going to be with your wife, how much time you're going to train, how many tournaments you should play. it's very difficult. >> rose: how good was jimmy? >> jimmy was incredible. he was at -- i love people that have a lot of effort so the guys that i ultimately respect are guys like nadal, guys like michael chang. >> rose: connors? >> exactly. any time i played connors no matter how hard i was trying, i'd look over the other side of the net and see a guy that was trying harder than me and i was like this son of a bitch is trying harder than me ever single point but i know it made me a better player.
i had to try harder. and he was so intense. everything was life or death. and then he'd manage, which i never did. see, i'd have managed to have the greatest round of applause before a match and it would be unbelievable. by the end of the match everyone's booing me. >> rose: (laughs) >> i'm like that's quite a quality, john. >> rose: here you are saying the guys you respect are the guys who had -- who worked the hardest, practiced the hardest, cared more about winning and yet i think you have said that if you had worked harder at it you might have won more. >> that's why i probably have a love/hate relationship with myself. >> rose: (laughs) you do? >> i do. i mean i've had a great life so as a father of six i try to sort of say to myself, look, are you going to look at the glass half empty oar half full at this point? and there's a lot of good things. so rather than say i blew the french and i should have trained
harder at times or i should have done this, i've tried to sort of look at it like, look, i have four u.s. opens, three wimbledons, i've done -- people say i'm a bet every commentator than i was a player. for many years i was like -- what? are you kidding me? so now i realize that was a compliment. it took me about five or ten years to realize it was good. >> rose: you tier best. there's nobody better than you as a commentator in any sport. >> can you repeat that? >> in any sport. >> rose: you probably thought about that, too? >> there's a couple times. but part of why i believe i haven't is because if i allow myself to indulge my ego and say i'm still pretty good at it it's because our sport doesn't get the recognition. so it's a little selfish.
ivan lend is coaching andy, isn't he? >> he is. >> rose: is it working? >> i hate to tell you this but he's done a very good job. >> rose: (laughs) >> he was out of the game for the better part of 17 years and they -- both of them needed something. lendl had to find his way back because when he decided to come back and play a little bit against myself and others he realized that wasn't so easy. and then he realized that he could do something, he could bring credibility to andy murray in terms of, look, i've lost -- his first four grand slam finals unfortunately when he broke through was against me but he lost his first four, like murray. >> rose: take a look at this. this is jimmy connors on the show recently. here it is. >> we had something special, charlie. i mean, we had a rivalry that in my heart meant something. >>. >> rose: what did it mean? >> everything. because sworp alike in a lot of ways and i always wanted to know -- >> rose: you mean brash and cocky?
>> left-handed. from the u.s. same attitude. his strengths, my strengths, serve and volley versus my return. so i always wanted to know what it was like to play myself. in 1984 in the finals of wimbledon i was -- you know, i don't like saying this, he took me apart pretty quickly in the finals of wimbledon and i thought he was going to be around for a while but, you know i think that was a classic case of other things creeping into your life. >> rose: >> he's such a know it all. >> rose: (laughs) >> let's go to the tape of that match. i was around. i didn't win anymore. i won the next major after that, too, but it got -- things happen and he's right about that. playing connors taught me a lot about how to compete and i knew that i was trying to take away something that i was holding on to. we were both americans and he didn't want to give anything up
but that made me better. >> rose: mcdowell was here earlier. do you know anything about golf? >> i know enough to know i picked the right sport. >> rose: (laughs) graham mcdowell doesn't hit it has far as tiger and the other guys off the "t," he's about 275 they're up 330, whatever it is. so i said to him "why don't you work on that, and add 25 yards to. and you could do it, you obviously have the ability to do that." and he said "i thought about it but a very wise person said to me if --" let's see if i can remember this. you want to -- if you strength strengthen your weakness you may weaken your strength. >> i think that -- >> i actually made that mistake myself because my career went to the later years that that's when
the graphite rackets -- and this was the beginning of the power game. the beckers, the samprass that could blow you off the court basically which you couldn't do with wood rackets so i tried alter my game thinking i either, a, need bigger muscles or i need to hit harder or find a frame that would give me more power which in actual fact if i hadn't changed a thing and just sort of honed what i did have i think i had the type of game that would have made them uncomfortable had i continued to believe in myself as much as i needed to to beat incredible players, by the way. these aren't guys like slouches. becker, edberg, sampras, agassi. i used to think connors was incredible so i started playing against agassi and i'd look back my neck would hurt watching his return go by me. so you had to do something different. as you get older, as roger's going to find out the hard way and he's starting to find out now, you lose a little bit. >> rose: you've got this great life.
not only all the things you do, the announcing, which is without peer, you love music >> love music. >> rose: do you still play at small >> just with friends or i'll do an occasional charity event. >> rose: love the nicks. i'll see you at the game. >> i love sports. to me that's when like at those athletes -- >> rose: to want you'll watch the heat and -- >> i'll be secretly pulling for the team that plays really as a team old school. >> rose: (laughs) >> even though i think le bron is amazing. i sat with my buddy chris mullen last year at the playoffs and i said that lebron guy, he chokes and he hasn't done it. the he's the best guy in the league. he's up there with michael jordan because he was the best ever. and i grew up with dr. j. who i thought was amazing and i see that guy like a locomotive. he plays offense and defense. so i love the guys that give the all around effort and art is another thing i love, also. >> rose: but you never painted,
you just bought art. >> i just appreciate it. >> rose: that's right. >> i was a terrible, terrible artist myself. >> rose: you're a collector. did you try? >> i tried and i'm not very patient with things i'm not good at so i quit about the third grade. >> rose: so if you had george w. bush's discipline -- >> i could do dogs or cats or whatever he does. how much are they? >> rose: (laughs) >> rose: great to see you. >> good to see you, charlie. >> rose: john mcenroe, stay with us. >> rose: the u.s. open tees off at merion golf club in pennsylvania. the course has been home to some of golf's most memorable moments. this year still provides its own intriguing storylines. all eyes remain on tiger woods as he seeks to end a five-year drought at the majors. masters champion adam scott looks to build on his victory at augusta national while rory mcelroy tries to get his game back on track. chaimny diaz is editor-in-chief
of "golf world" and senior writer at "golf digest." he's one of the best and i'm pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: one of the best. what's happening in golf? what are the story lines before we get to the open? >> there's so many things this year. there's been controversy. the anchoring decision is a big decision that the u.s.g.a. has done to sort of stop the use of the long putter because they feel it's not a golf stroke. >> rose: you can use it but not anchor it? >> you cannot have it braced against you. >> rose: will that affect the games of important players? >> some players will have to deval patrick. >> rose: ernie els used it successfully. >> but he was ambivalent. i think it's important for the u.s.g.a. to show their authority and take control of the game in a way that's good for the game. >> rose: if you would make an assessment of the game today, what would you sgla economically the game is struggling because
the economy is struggling. and i think the there's an issue with the time the game takes. it's a big issue. >> rose: you know, i rarely play 18. i play -- >> well, we're promoting nine holes now at "golf digest." >> rose: i am, too. >> it works better. there's a two and a half hour window in society and culture. >> rose: i didn't know that. that's great. >> uh-huh. the game is adapting. it wasn't for a long time. i think there's a sense that we're eternal and there will always be an audience for golf but now as the world changes the game is changing and i think it's healthy. >> rose: graham was here, he's from ireland. he comes from a middle-class family, hardworking family. he had total access to golf. we don't have that. >> rose: >> that is the measure i think. the biggest constant among tour players is they all had access to golf. that doesn't mean they all had country clubs. that's not true. it's usually public courses,
scruffy, nine holes. but they played 45 holes a day. and that's how you get good. arnold palmer had that. >> rose: james -- he used to have a course. >> yes and it's not a fancy course, arnold couldn't always play because it was private but after a while he got to play it a lot. sarnl owe played all his life. seve. the early starts really important and the access to having unlimited golf is crucial to getting good at the game and the retention in the game is often based if there's one constant, an early start. so getting juniors to play and making the game easy for them to play. i used to play $11 a month, 25 cents every time i played. it was not a fancy course in the bay area of san francisco which is not a rundown area or anything. but that doesn't exist as much anymore either. >> rose: then there's tiger woods. >> yes. >> rose: where is he? >> (laughs) well, he's -- i think one thing we've learned is he's still the game in so many ways. he whether he's playing well or having problems, people are drawn to him, the mag metism is
still there. he's the genius that everybody just basically can't get enough of. >> rose: that's the right word, isn't it, genius? >> i think that's his attraction. people will forgive tiger -- the idea that he's a complex human being and not the warmest guy necessarily doesn't matter. i think what matters is what he does. and, you know, he's a wonderful concert pianist or someone who might have a complex personality. >> rose: what is it about his game that's exquisite? >> i think what he used to do in particular was rise to the occasion so beautifully. because golf's about pressure, managing pressure, especially on a sunday. >> tiger used to do it better than anyone. just like jordan would do it at the end of the game. that was the allure and tigered that that allure. he still has it. he hasn't been able since he came back from his troubles to do it at a major and that's the ultimate test and the thing he lived for so the drama is seeing if he can do that again. and they want it to happen again but at the same time they
realize -- >> rose: he won't do it now more than he did it two years ago. faldo told me he might not win another major. >> these guys are all identifying with the normal career of a pro which is the window of about eight years prime. when that window is over the majors don't come anymore except with the greatest. nicklas, player. usually -- even arnold's closing eight years and tiger's has been since '97. he's probably the greatest along with jack but it's asking a lot and he went through a big trau stra ma. i would say he ears certainly capable. he's won four times this year, won in convincing style. >> rose: you thought he had a chance at this year's masters. >> certainly. it set up wonderfully. well, he was playing wonderfully. he had the flagstick and ball bounce and i thought he came back well but he gave away four strokes and those were the four strokes -- >> rose: he would have won. >> or at least tied for playoff. yeah. >> rose: when you look at the challengers, what's happened to rory?
>> it's a very intriguing thing how someone maybe deals with suddenly having the pressure of being the best in the world. >> rose: yeah. >> i mean rory is gifted and rory has done two things. won two majors by eight strokes. no one's done that except tiger. and yet at that time he didn't have the pressure of being the best. he had a free run. he failed it wasn't going to be a big deal. now he's got all eyes on him being judged constantly and that's a hard thing to deal with. >> rose: does adam scott have the qualities that tiger does? >> no. but he has got some wonderful qualities. i don't think he has the intensity and killer instint constantly push but i think on his -- >> rose: doesn't have the killer instant to constantly push? >> that's my opinion but i'm talking about tournament after tournament. he won the masters and it was beautiful and he played great and i think it's going to be difficult for him not to be satisfied. he's trying to fight that
because i think he feels he's on to something special. >> rose: and he's got a fabulous swing. >> it's the most pleasing golf swing out there. it's beautiful and he's gifted and he's become a decent putter. but i'm just saying when you compare someone to tiger, the hunger and intensity and focus is what separated him so when you say does adam scott have that, i don't think he has it. and he's 32 years old, i don't think he'll get it. >> rose: does phil have it? >> no. he's a great winner but tournament to tournament he's erratic. tiger kept the focus. >> what's the focus? you know, i've interviewed so many people, as you know, and often i'll say what's the greatest talent -- what is it that's at the core of your own success? warren buffett, focus. bill gates, focus. focus. they all come back focused. >> rose: jack nicklas.
>> jack would say it, too. the capacity to know this is what i have to do and this is what i am going to do. >> rose: >> yes. >> rose: there's no exception, no other way, this is it. it has to be done. >> rose: and it puts you in the moment so all the extraneous things fall away. the pressure, what people think. the intimidation of the playing partner. tiger doesn't feel that. jack didn't care who he was playing with. i don't think tiger cares who he's playing with. too much is made of that. the good players get in their own bubble. >> rose: at their best-- their best-- jack is better than tigher? tiger is better than jack? >> well, it's so incredibly fantastical but i'd say tiger, i would say tiger only because he had more weapons around the green. he had more ways to score and get the ball in the hole faster so on the par fives jack was a
steadier ball striker and incredible putter and made fewer mistakes. but tiger when he got rolling, that was a game no one else had seen. jack had done that himself in the '56 masters when bobby jones -- >> rose: he played the game. >> he just put it up another notch. >> rose: did jack ever say that about tigher? he's playing a game i'm not familiar with? >> i don't think jack did. i think jack identifies with tiger. >> rose: he does? >> i think that's why they have an understanding. they've both been in the pinnacle. >> rose: i went down and had a long conversation with jack. he didn't say to this to me but to someone else "i never spent more than two minutes with him." >> he's said it now publicly. tiger doesn't seek people out. jack doesn't want to volunteer anything and because tiger's kept everybody at arm's length those conversations don't happen. >> rose: does he do that because he thinks it affects his game or
is that his personality? >> i wonder. i wonder if he feels like he'd be subordinating his self-image to someone else's "if i have to ask, i'm not the best." i don't know. or maybe he thinks he knows. you think they'd have a wonderful conversation. >> rose: u.s. open. who do we like? >> i like tiger. that's not very original. >> rose: (laughs) no, no. >> i just feel like -- >> rose: so last week doesn't make any difference to you? >> well, it makes a little difference in terms of my feeling as confident that he'll do it. but i still think that he's ready for it. i thought the players' championship was a very nice sort of a measure of where he is. he played that golf course much like he played the u.s. golf course. and it wasn't a golf course he's played well consistently. he one once but usually struggled. he's got a different game now. >> rose: how is it different? >> well, equipment has changed to the point now where the three-wood is enough for the powerful players to play the golf holes and tiger's worst
club is the driver. so on the courses where he's not -- >> rose: mine, too! >> a lot of people's. where the premium is not on long accurate driving which used to be something -- not saying they was most accurate but he was long and accurate enough that he used to get a big advantage and now overs have that advantage over him and his advantage is the precisions of his irons so his challenge is to get in the middle of the fairway. and when he gets on golf courses that is the stadium courses, that's where he's excelling. that's his new happy place, so to speak. you know, as he did in 2006, that was a very compact golf course they that played very fast, british open. he won. he departed from his regular game at that time. but i think it set a template he's able to follow again. >> rose: you said "if woods finds a way it will be because his secret weapon is a new mind-set. as he said at his most humiliating moment, it's not what you achieve in life that matters, it's what you
overcome." >> yeah, that's just an intuitive feeling i have. he never talks about this. he never talks about what he went through and what he's done. it's almost like -- it's all about physical injury and golf swing. but i believe he know noes everyone regards what he went through as a challenge. and if he can meet that challenge i think he knows he'll elevate his stature and be a better man and there's a lot of motivation for him to do it for that reason. >> rose: of all of the players that you didn't see play, who would you most like to have seen? >> i would have loved to have seen byron nelson. >> rose: because he was braceful? >> but as i understand it he just didn't miss shots hogan was an incredible player but as i understand it byron just had the physical genius and gift for hitting the ball solid and straight and he won 11 tournaments in a row. that level of golf i have to believe was the greatest ever
attained so ken venturi who just passed away had the great fortune of playing golf wit byron nelson and ben hogan. >> rose: what did he say? >> well, he never liked ---to-pick one over the other but i think he thought for pure ball striking, just hitting a shot straight to the target no one was better than byron nelson. >> rose: great to see you. jaime diaz from "golf digest" and "golf world." a man who understands the game. we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: donald rumsfeld is here he is both the youngest and oldest person to have served as secretary of defense. he's also been a nay sli fighter pilot, a congressman and the c.e.o. of two "fortune" 500 companies. his new book is called "rumsfeld rules: leadership lessons in business, politics, war and life." part memoir, part management guide, it offers an insight into donald rumsfeld's collection of people with advice.
good rules, he says. we have talk misdemeanor times to him about his conduct as secretary of defense and his involvement in several republican administrations. this conversation is about donald rumsfeld's book and what he has learned from the rules of other people. i'm pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. >> thank you, sir. >> rose: we can talk about what's in this book and what we can learn from what you learned about how to be able to manage things, how to be able to lead. how did this come about? >> it came about because i was asked to come back as gerald ford's chief of staff in the white house and my mother had been a schoolteacher -- >> right after he succeeded. >> and the only president never elected president or vice president. to succeed a president who resigned, the only one in history and we hope the last and only one. but i said something in the oval office one day and he said "what's that?" i said "it's a rule i write down. when i make a mistake i write a note so that i won't make it
again." and my mother was a schoolteacher and i started keeping 3 x 5 cards and have done it to this day and he said "let me see the rules." so i had them typed up and he labeled them "rumsfeld's rules." and they got an article of their own. >> rose: didn'tmcqet think write something about it one time? >> later, much later. >> rose: it was the first time i knew about rumsfeld's rules. >> so people asked for copies and i decided to write a book about them. of course they're not my rules. they fear from people a lot smarter than i am. winston churchill and -- >> rose: and your father. >> and my dad. my wife's dad. my wife's dad said to me "if you're coasting you're going downhill." >> rose: (laughs) >> now, that's worth remembering is. >> rose: or looking back rather than looking forward. >> he once said dorngs always have six month's salary in the bank and then if some boss tells
you do something you think is wrong or illegal or immoral or you just don't agree with you can tell him to go to the dickens. and you don't have to do it." >> rose: good advice. tell me what your father taught you. >> my father was head of the ethics committee for the north shore real estate board outside of chicago. he sold houses. and i watched him and listened to him day after day and he was just a wonderful man. and the political science professor said how business people were corrupt and immoral and greedy and bad. that's kind of what they taught in colleges back in those days and i suppose still today. and i knew it wasn't so because i knew my father was an honorable man. and he taught me to read for one thing, so did my mom. >> rose: to read and be curious. >> exactly. and he was a voracious reader and he used to tease me because i always had a book.
he called me the bookworm. >> rose: (laughs) but what did he tell you about quiting? >> that was so funny. i wrote him a note in world war ii and i said dad, i've been in the boy scouts for several years and i think i'm going to drop out of the boy scouts and spend more time playing sports with my friends. and he wrote back and said that's fine, don, you go ahead and quit the boy scouts and next month you can quit something else and then you can quit something else. pretty soon you'll be a darn good quitter. >> rose: (laughs) >> i never quit. i went on and got eagle scout. >> rose: there are 360 rules in here? >> and the last one is "if you have rules never have more than 10." (laughs) >> rose: and you have 360. you break your own rules. >> i do. that's how you learn if you're going to make mistakes, the make original mistakes.
>> rose: this looks like pre-determined to me but it's not. "don't overcontrol like a novice pilot. stay loose enough from the flow that you can observe and calibrate." hello? hello? >> rose: that's important. >> i was a flight instructor and i watched some flight instructors with students and the students would often overcontrol and if you're a manager you have to have multiple leadership centers and that's the only way you can run a big organization and if you try to micromanage it kind of like president jimmy carter did, it doesn't work. it works better if you do like ronald reagan did and be more strategic. >> rose: don't you have control in you? >> no. >> rose: not at the pentagon? not in any of the jobs that you have? have to be. you have to do that. >> rose: which one have you live bid that served you the best? or two?
>> if in doubt, don't. >> rose: but at the same time there's this rule: you will regret what you didn't do rather than what you did in the end. >> well, yeah. the road not taken was always smoother. >> rose: robert frost. >> was that robert frost? i thought it was duncan hunter. >> rose: well, the person who wrote it was -- the road not taken that was robert frost. >> i have to do a better job of researching before i write my next book. do you have any women rules in here? >> sure, mrs. thatcher is in there. >> rose: what did she say in >> the trouble with socialism is pretty soon you run out of other people's money. which i kind of liked. >> rose: tell me about the other rules that -- i mean, for example, that you talk about that have influenced your life.
>> well, in the business world what you measure improves. you need metrics and what's important and worth measuring. that means thingss aren't going to be measured but that is. in the military they say you get what you inspect not what you expect. >> rose: bill gates in his letter to stockholders of the gates foundation, the people who contribute to that based on the kind of thing that buffett has been doing for years talks about measurement in philanthropy. how important it is so that you can be convinced that what you were doing you have a way to measure progress. and results and to test people for performance. >> and the greatest risk of people not measuring and not having metrics is in nonprofits and government because in business you fail. if you do it badly and don't
measure and get better and you're not competitive you go out of the philanthropy can go on and on and on because they have endowment and they spend the endowment, the business in government it's always other people's money you're using and people treat other people's monies in a different way than they treat their own. >> rose: it's the old notion that nobody ever washs a rental car. i think larry summers first said that. what are you proudest of in terms of this 81 years you've been alive? >> i suppose marrying joyce. >> well, of course it is. >> rose: well, don't say of course! >> rose: well, just to be appreciative of that fact. >> well, i was just asking what you were doing here in new york and you said you were staying at a certain hotel, i asked why and you said joyce likes it. which shows a real sense of -- >> she's a special lady.
>> rose: she is. but what else? >> i think serving. >> rose: but you've served in various capacities. >> well, the hardest job i ever had was being chief of staff of the white house for gerald ford. and -- >> rose: because he had such a difficult transition to make? >> oh, gosh, he had the war in vietnam ending in an ugly way and the economy was in the tank and the credibility of the government was down just as low as it could be and he never served in an executive position and he was one of the finest human beings on the face of the earth. >> rose: gerald ford put together a really wonderful group of people. >> he did. >> rose: so when you went to washington you were the mentor for dick cheney, they was protege of rum rum. would you grant me that? >> i hired him in 1969 as a special assistance. and -- >> rose: and when you were at the white house as chief of staff you brought him in as deputy chief of staff?
>> i brought him in as an assistant. >> rose: and when you left -- >> i recommended him to president ford as chief of staff and he did. and he'sriend to this day. he's one of those people that never asks for anything, never tried to do anything special. he just put his head down, whatever he was asked to do he did it and then he'd do things he wasn't asked to do. >> rose: is there a senior foreign this relationship? last time in your opinion government service you were secretary of defense and he was vice president. >> sure! we're close friends. >>. >> rose: how does that work? it's not an issue at all who's higher frank? >> no, i've gotten enormous respect -- >> you sense -- the same sense of the relationship is there? >> he's writing a book now about heart transplants of all things with his doctor which ought to be an interesting one. >> rose: this is from lewis carroll. "if you don't know where you're going, any road will get you there." that's great. >> rose: it's true. and in life that's easy to happen because sometimes you can
want to do so many things. it will other one in there that i think maybe is the one i mentioned to gerald ford is if you're working off your in box you're working off other people's priorities. and the goal if you're a leader is to have people working off your out box. >> if you read through these things, there's a lot of wisdom here and it's the wisdom of lots of people. george marshall, if you get the objective right, a lieutenant can write the strategy. >> yes. that's the hard thing. >> and eisenhower said something similar. well, not quite similar but of a kind. he said the plan is nothing. planning is everything. why did he say that. the first plan is out the enemy has a brain and you have to adapt to that. >> rose: if you don't know what your top three priorities are you don't have priorities. >> that's right. if you walk around the corner and some guy is coming at you who works with you, what are
your top three priorities? if he stumbles and doesn't answer he doesn't answer. any road will get him there. >> rose: you have said when you goo into meetings know what you want to get accomplished. >> there's a chapter on how to run a meeting. >> rose: i know, that's why i'm asking the question. >> and the first thing about running a meeting is deciding whether you need one. or whether you can do something better with your time. >> rose: this is -- tell me where this comes from. he who defends everywhere defends nowhere. >> is that sun su? >> rose: yes. >> these are really good. this is a lot of wisdom here in terms of what -- talent hits a target no one else can hit. genius hits a target no one else can see. >> that is -- slopeen hauer. and gretzky said something similar about hockey. >> rose: what he said was i look where the puck is going, not where it is. >> exactly.
yup. >> rose: these are really -- >> they're fun. i've enjoyed collecting them and i've been asked for cop pedz of rumsfeld rules so many times and i thought well i'll talk about those rules and put them in book form and fortunately people are interested which is fun. >> rose: do you believe in this one? not all negative press is unearned. if you're getting it, see if there's a reason. >> exactly. my wife has one on the press in there. >> rose: what does it say? >> she said avoid infatuation with or resentment of the press. they have -- don, they have their job and you have yours. it's kind of a nice thought. >> rose: it's true. exactly right. this is one of my favorite people in the world. the late john wooden, the coach that at u.c.l.a. discipline yourself and others won't need to. >> rose: isn't that nice? it's true. you need an inner gyroscope in life. i like the one you haven't
mentioned. >> rose: oh, there's a stand up desk. you believe in standup desks because it's energizing. >> i didn't know it was healthy when i started doing in the 1969 i just started doing it and i liked it and it keeps meetings shorter if you're standing up. some people like to get too comfortable. >> exactly. this is one i believe in, too. this has to do with a lot of things having to do with relationships. if you expect people to be in on the landing, include them for the takeoff. >> exactly. >> bring them in at the beginning and then they'll stay there for the landing. >> rose: exactly. >> men count up the faults of those who keep them waiting. french proverb. men count up the faults of those who keep them waiting. >> probably men and women, just to be inclusive. >> rose: encourage others to give their views even if it may ruffle some feathers. that's always true. >> it is important in a meeting to look around the room and if you see someone who you think may disagree but doesn't want to say it that they get it out.
>> rose: we were talking about charles degal's memoirs. he said the cemeteries of the world are filled with indispensable men. >> that's important to remember. you think it's you that's important as opposed to the responsibilities you have that's important and there aren't any indispensable men or women. >> rose: at the top there are no easy choices. all are between evils, the consequences of which are hard to judge. >> his memoir also is very -- >> rose: a couple great memoirs. >> along with ulysses grants. >> present at the creation. >> exactly. >> rose: many intelligence reports in war on contradictory, even more are false and most are uncertain. you might have remembered that. >> indeed. >> rose: and make hayden, general hayden had one. he said if it's intelligence it's not a fact. think of that! that is exactly right.
otherwise it wouldn't be intelligence. if it were a fact it would be a fact. >> rose: are you continuing to write these things down? >> i do. >> i keep adding and i have my file and i add rules to it and i hope someday you'll send me yours because you've been around quite a bit around the track. >> rose: a bit. (laughs) >> rose: "rumsfeld rules, leadership, lessons in business, politics, war and life." thank you. pleasure to see you again. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org