tv Quadriga - The International Talk Show LINKTV June 23, 2019 10:30pm-11:01pm PDT
thronged the city center to demand the government retract a proposed law that would allow expeditions to mainland china. police responded with tear gas and rubber bullets. the rallies stunned hong kong chief executive carrie lam who has now apologized and suspended the unpopular proposal. but the protesters want nothing short of her resignation and full cancellation of the legislation. they fear that it could become a long arm for beijing to apprehend political opponents. and undermining hong kong's autonomous status. hong kong versus beijing power grab postponed that's the question we're posing on quadriga today. and here are the guests who will be answering yet. born in hong kong sherry chown works mainly for d. w. social media department. she says the fresh round of protests serve as an important reminder for people in hong kong that they still have a battle to fight.
until. twenty forty seven it's also a pleasure to welcome andre yes cloete is a freelance journalist and author. who formerly worked with the economist based in hong kong he says despite the aerobic resistance of hong kong's people and especially its young? china will eventually limit and then extinguish hong kong liberty. and finally we're very pleased to have with us the activist ray wong he was involved in the umbrella movement that emerged during the hong kong democracy protests in. twenty fourteen he was granted asylum in germany last year he says. we don't want hong kong to become just another city in china. so welcome to all of you. let me ask you and sherry to start out by talking about a little bit about the current situation. even after the suspension of the proposed extradition law the protesters it made it clear they're not calling it quits. apparently messages have been circulating on social media your social media expert.
calling for protesters to escalate their actions quote on quote what could that mean what are you expecting -- the protesters and now all the nice thing the rounds of demonstrations and i think they don't expect to have such you numb huge numbers as the two weeks the fall -- but then they still they said that they would impact on unless the chief executive said that. the b. will be withdrawn totally and that they also demand that police to withdraw the charges on the protesters who were arrested. so we're seeing like a huge drop of demonstration okay. ray would you say that -- carrie lam the chief executive of hong kong that her apologies and her suspension of the legislation was a genuine. climb down a genuine retraction or is the government just biding its time. yes i think actually the government just buying the time to let the whole case cool don in the international community.
because last week two medians people on the streets and it's drool a hitch attention from the international community. and like the us donald trump has said that he would raise the issue of hong kong in g. tend. to i think it's gives a huge pressure to the hong kong government. thank you and we will come back to pressure from outside a little bit later on but entry yes for those of us who are less well acquainted in kong hung. with hong kong it may have seemed a bit surprising at first that what appeared to be a procedural law would provoke this level of mass resistance in fact you called it hiro ec yes. resistance what exactly is at stake and why is it that you think this hero ec resistance is likely to prove few tile. well that's a lot to me what was the steak this was a rich man. this was an idea the idea is to f. l. s. allow the courts to
extradite people to china or taiwan. with whom how come doesn't have an extradition treaty has been around for a long time and never went anywhere and then there was a case about a home come couple very young went to taiwan and came back. that gave carrie lam this puppet of beijing the excuse to suddenly accelerate that which made everyone think that she wants this not to extradite. the the alleged murder that's that was that was a murder case to taiwan because by the way taiwan said we don't want this anymore once they figured out. but to open the back door. into the hong kong judicial system which is based on english common law and still is pretty clean but to let people be extradited to mainland china. once people understood made that connection they realize that this is. probably the most profound threat of many threats since they hand over. add to hong kong liberties. and that's where i went they want industry went on to the took to the streets. in a way that i think is nothing short of heroic.
and why is it you think that that heroism won't actually yea- that count in the long run you said essentially that it's your time. the chinese mainland chinese from a western point of view are famous for their long time horizons there's even apocryphal jokes about that. but they waited a hundred years to get hong kong back in nineteen ninety seven then they made a deal for fifty years. and at the time we in the west were hoping well a lot can happen in fifty years maybe hong kong will change china more than china will change on call. it's not completely clear that times have changed china is in a trade was standing up to the us in a trade war they want their they wanna make turn islands in two aircraft carriers in the south china sea. their release using what they view as their historical prerogative to be a major power. and everything points to crack down by shi jing ping who doesn't want to lose face and i think the long term direction i. we're gonna slowly turn up the heat and then in another you know it's been twenty two years since then over come twenty
forty seven i think it's curtains. century your opening statement describes the protests as part of the battle that hong kong has to fight until twenty forty seven until that deadline -- that andreas just described he's saying the battle is already been lost -- i think most welcome people within thing that that this time they have a fig tree because caroline suspend to be you -- but then -- it's a reminder for them that -- it's not only the fear they oppose a is actually the whole system behind the whole fight for democracy the whole how to retain one country two systems. in the daily lives and i think as you have mentioned before in two thousand fourteen there was a big protest umbrella movement and after that -- scenes -- no office i'll come has been achieved i think after that many hong kong people actually. lost hope obeyed and they lost the momentum of what they are fighting for but then this fresh wrong of protest remind them
that. this is a this is a very ongoing fights is is a long battle that they have. to keep coming out again and again 224- so opinions i would he talk in just a moment about the link between the twenty fourteen protest that you were so much a part of ray and the ones we're seeing now but let's hear. the voices now of some of those who were out on the streets of hong kong this past week and to clearly believe that this battle must be fought. so you know that your basal body out to the we must teach the children to tell right from wrong. have gone home comes on june's came out please hold mixed press there. you can even though they were a little in. the police should not on his rubber bullets tear gas and being backgrounds to deal with the students today dot. out on it over the whole sunday. sad does a delay not a full cancellation of of that since in the low. so i've seen this is not over
for until this is a complete stop to those plans are they going. what more can we do they saw it yeah yeah i? yeah they call us rioters. but our gear is just a rain coa. hi and a helmet the the young get you thinking but they have the times. and they can make us believe [inaudible] on i don't think that we young people came out to cause troubl. we are fighting for a better future for hong kong. and we're going on women. so ray those so those voices must sound familiar to you tell us a little bit about your experience during the twenty fourteen of protests whether you think they made an impact whether you think they made a difference. and perhaps what you would want to say to these protesters toda. i'm first of all i think there is a big difference between the
protests in two thousand fourteen and the protest to a day. in two thousand fourteen as surely we with me k. nothing from the gulf islands. and even told where have stayed in the streets for seventy nine days. but actually it the government didn't listen to us it didn't listen to our force for democracy. but it's this time the the man so all the way of protesting. is different from the two thousand fourteen by the revolution where's that larger or more and more you will fall or what what makes it different. i think the biggest difference is that this time. there is no a significance lida sold error free protesta. a half the only force and they do what they think is useful
[inaudible] to protest. very interesting so would you have a message to those young people we just saw on the screen [inaudible] man. i would say it. now the political situation in hong kong is totally different from. two thousand fourteen as truth has set. off to two thousand fourteen a lot of hong kong people loss of its whole in hong kong. but after this time we can see the international. attention is very useful to give pressure to the chinese government as well as the hong kong government to change their mind or to make up its concessions. so i think or the protesters in hong kong. sure keep their hope. and try their best to tell the international community what's happening in hong kong and how importance. of hong kong. jerry how far would you expect
the government to go to suppress a protest if as you said there are continuing rallies. escolha tory actions even what do you think the government's likely to do -- i think the suppression of the protest will only be justified if they it's clash and violins. all yeah clash between police and protesters and so as long as the protesters they keep a calm. and remain peaceful i don't think the government has a reason to stop people going on the streets just to say things that. they wouldn't like and so we'll have to see it like what the protesters plans are -- in but i wouldn't say the government will still make a lot of the efforts. to to hi ed this bus the people. address it's sometimes difficult to get a reading on carrie lam at least i find -- the chief executive of hong kong -- at times in the beginning she sounded like the mother of a recalcitrant child very strict.
then when she apologize she actually sounded at least genuinely distressed you said she's a puppet of bridging so she simply acting on beijing's marching orders meaning. it wasn't she who blinked it was beijing. she claims that the extradition idea was her own idea but of course and i i wasn't even. making this an ad hoc attack against carrie lam who seems to be a sort of colorless bureaucrat for the most. part but the truth is all of the i i arrived in hong kong and that was to gee why and then i still -- at donald saying and then i left and there's been a couple listens they're all puppets of beijing that's the way the system is set up that's what you guys were protesting against you wanted to elect the. and the low end ledge go but also the chief executive directly and they're not so of course. them it is understood that they're there and party to represent the interests of beijing and that's not against carrie lam i think it whether
she if she were to resign. emmett which could happen as we speak. i'm the that they would m. there would be a new puppet it wouldn't solve anything as far as i'm concerned. rate josh will wong an activist who played a leading role in the twenty fourteen protests and was then sent to prison has just been released he says the demonstrators are rallying now so that quote. unquote so to the quote they don't suffer the same fate as the students on tiananmen square thirty years ago. is such a crackdown imaginable in hong kong a tiananmen square type cracked on i tried it. on the first third of the umbrella revolution i had this folds because there were rumors that the tanks from china will crossing the border. and police were holding the gun pointed to our face. i think ones the international community. has no interest in hong kong to
china they can do whatever they want in hong kong. very interesting so let's take a look. then after the link between. i know hong kong in fact has long served as a bridge between china and the world acting as a conduit for trade and investmen. in both directions let's take a closer look at relations between the two and what that means for the rest of the world. boasting over seven million inhabitants the special administrative region of hong kong is one of china's most important trading hub. when britain transferred sovereignty of hong kong to china in nineteen ninety seven beijing agreed to guarantee the existing political and economic systems for fifty years? according to the principle of one country two systems. home console terminal status guarantees civil rights such as freedom of the press and the
right to protest. but these are under increasing threat as beijing influence continues to grow. only hope for the seventy seats in parliament. are elected directly. and chief executive carrie lam was appointed by largely pro beijing election committee. arrests of the pro democracy activists suc as the recently released josh or wan are also increasingly frequent. will beijing state to the pre transfer agreement. so. let me pass that last question - straight on to all of you and us start out with you at cherry -- do you think that the agreement will hold even till -- twenty forty seven in my opinion i think it will and all these things that china is trying to do now is not. to push that deal that has to be
reached. like early yeah i think what they want to do is just to make sure that -- gradually and slowly hong kong will become more similar to just other cities in china and that paula - took off in the home comparable will be less -- let's. office just the before that there is reached and so they just want to have these graduate change so they in two thousand forty seven it would be. like a peaceful and gradual change of the systems but that in itself is the hong kong people i'm not buying that. andreas so you're clearly skeptical about the group agreement holding in the long term what about the short to medium run. well and not necessarily but the agreement holding on paper because remember that point about the time horizons it's not it's never been in china's interest to have us tiananmen square on the streets of hong kong. because one thing that the chart from china's point of view that
it always wanted to one country two systems in both hong kong and macau to be. was two demonstration projects for taiwan they were hoping to convince taiwan look if you ever want they want to gather. all the chinese lands back into the mother country basically and for that they need to show that look we stick to agreements otherwise they can kiss taiwan goodbye. it may be that she jumping is now decided well taiwan is gone anyway so it doesn't matter i think what could flip it is if she gin paying. who's made himself basically dictator for life recently changed to china's constitution if he's fought he was losing face. he could overreact short of that i don't think they will over react and they will keep doing what they've been doing since i was there was there in two thousand three at that time the problem was something called article twenty third and twenty three they keep. subverting harkens liberty in subtle ways until two thousand forty seven when is barely noticeable and van and so my pessimism more even we're
already halfway through almost the fifty year period. that we've got one more generation and it will be it will be a steady gradual decline of liberty and then it will just be another chinese city. ray i have to say when i was watching that report. i found myself asking what's it like to live in a place where a clock is ticking. toward the a deadline that could mean a completely different -- political system and a loss of liberty what what can you tell us what what that means for daily life for people living there. is that shouldice favorite desperate's for the young generation in hong kong because we grow old in the days where we can enjoy freedom. and the rule of law and two bits democracy but when we look at it the china china's a chinese cit. where the people have no freedom they have no?
freedom of speech is really desperate and we don't want to live in such a city that's why to be. gold -- to the streets to fight for democracy in order to keep distance from china [inaudible] to read. let me come back. to the question of pressure from outside ray talked about. donald trump -- saying that he would bring up hong kong status when he meets apparently but she's in pain on the margins of the g.. twenty to what degree though would you really expect any country right now to truly stand up for hong kong vis a vis china when there are so many tensions already -- between for instance the us and china. and after this break protest actually many countries including the u. i think they put out a statement saying that they support the protest says and they think that all these processes they have their rights
to voice their opinion. but then they didn't believe make it very office that. they want democracy in hong kong and but i must say i think local people this time around competitors of philippine. they really ways not to and okay because we see a lot of protest organizing different countries in australia in the u. as in europe and they are really trying to get. as much international attention as possible -- soul with international pressure -- i would say it needs something to have for the government to back down a bit but as for china. i don't think it really plays a big role in tennis decision on how they want to go out and i'll call. under is how much to hong kong spices stability and prosperity matter both to the west and also to china as i was looking at the figures i found it quite interesting to see that hong kong share of china's overall g. p. g. p.. has dropped quite dramatically
so question is -- which china really care if hong kong were to go into an economic tailspin -- they would care but probably not as much of what what china it has up to now m.. needed hong kong for he is as a finance center that brings capital in and out so a lot of. just been happening in china but also in hong kong because it showed up at the ceiling common law and so forth but what we've been seeing for for many many years now is it is it changing the division of labor among the asian financial centers sir francis a lot. of the currency stuff is now in singapore a lot of the the direct. investment in china is increasingly in shanghai so from china's point of view that is part of the long time horizon they're they're hoping to arrange things so they need hong kong less and less. and that shanghai plays a larger and larger role with support by singapore and hong kong and
taipei and seoul and tokyo. so. china will will manage that and not care to mention as far as the west unfortunately i'm very pessimistic either the doll who cares. donald trump she cares a hoot about this he cares about the china in terms of a trade war and he's his advisers are telling which is true there's a pop potential for a hot military war at some point. and he cares about north career where she gin pings been staging himself perhaps to get out to get out of the news cycle with song on pictures there he's walking around with the north korean dictator who. who donald trump is trying to be chummy with donald trump does not care really about the freedoms and liberties of hong kong? and the europeans and the germans care even less because they're being ground up there and they had their third trading mentality. they're being ground up at germany in particular between this american sino american trade war they want that's settled and they don't want a larger war in the region.
and when push comes to shove they're not gonna make hong kong something that they would. you know risk a capital in. sorry if i come back to our title -- whether the power struggle between beijing and hong kong has simply been postponed -- at best. would you say that pressure from outside is essential in order for that power struggle to go hong kong's way and if so are you confident that hong kong can be more than a bargaining chip that. both china and the west would happily store way if they need. to i let's say i have a lot of international business set up that branch in hong kong expected because this the rule of law and they trust the legal system in hong kong. and seoul -- i think the economy is really a bargaining chip for hong kong to win this battle. and maybe actually is the only cheap they can use -- because to be honest like i don't think the international committee really pay a lot of attention. to human rights saw that
democracy in hong kong per se but yeah. ray i was interested to see ya when i was reading up a little bit about. your life here in germany that you have said that germany's experience of reunification gives you hope for hong kong can you just tell us a to close the show why that is. because i met some german people that they have told me that. i treated they had a state state never fought. the west germany and east germany will defend should be reunited but somehow it's happened. sold day told us nevin loose my whole tool is a dictatorship they would eventually. collapse. so -- looking toward that power struggle that our title -- it talks about -- how do you think it will come out? i think first of all of the international community should. it should constantly keep