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tv   Democracy Now  LINKTV  April 28, 2022 8:00am-9:01am PDT

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04/28/22 04/28/22 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> if someone decides to intervene in current events in ukraine from the outside and create unacceptable strategic threats for russia, they must know our response, our retaliatory strike will be lightning fast. amy: as russian president vladimir putin threatens nations arming ukraine, we will speak to
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anatol lieven who has written the article "the horrible dangers of pushing a u.s. proxy war in ukraine." >> when you get into a situation or two nuclear powers with the capacity between them to destroy humanity are firing missiles at each other, this is a very, very, very dangerous scenario. amy: then as the biden administration orchestrates a prisoner swap with russia to free former marine trevor reed, we will look at the case of wnba all-star and two-time gold medalist brittney griner who has been detained in russia since february >> she is an incredible athlete but i think she is also really importanpolitical icon and cultural figure and has beenor really long te. this is the moment to demand that the white house intervene and bring brittney griner home. amy: plus, we look at harvard
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university's pledge to spend $100 million to create a fund to redress the school's deep ties to slavery. we will speak to mit professor craig steven wilder, author of "ebony & ivy: race, slavery, and the troubled history of america's universities." all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!,, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. u.n. secretary-general antonio guterres has arrived in ukraine for talks with president volodymyr zelenskyy. the trip follows guterres' visit to the kremlin, where on tuesday russian president vladimir putin promised in principle that russia will allow civilians to evacuate from conflict zones. ukrainian officials dispute that, saying convoys attempting to flee through humanitarian corridors continue to come under fire. in mariupol, the commander of the city's remaining ukrainian forces pleaded in a new video for an international rescue
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operation to evacuate troops and civilians from the massive steel plant where they remain holed up against a withering assault by russia's military. >> there are hundreds of civilians, including tens of children. there are ny people with reduced ability, many elderly. there are shortages of water, food, ammunition, weapons, and military equipment. in in a southern ukraine, russian soldiers opened fire with stem grenades and tear grass -- gas on protesters. elsewhere, one person was killed wednesday as rockets hit a residential neighborhood. the white house has president will head to alabama next week to visit a lucky martin factory that produces anti-take missiles, one of dozens of weapons systems which the u.s. has been supplying to ukraine. the announcement came as russian president vladimir putin warned western nationabout
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intervening in the war. >> if someone decides to intervene in the current events in ukraine from the outside and create unaccepble strategic threats for russia, then they must know our response, our retaliatory strikes will be lightning fast, quick. we have all the tools for this such that no one else can bolster right now. we will not brag. we will use them as needed and everyone should know about it. we have made all the decisions on this matter. amy: more on this later in the broadcast with anatol lieven, author of -- in india, acrid smoke hung over the capital delhi for a second straight day today after a massive garbage dump caught fire. the landfill is taller than an 17-story building and covers an area larger than 50 football fields. waste pickers who live in nearby homes complained of toxic smoke and fumes. >> i'm not able to breathe and
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my eyes are burning. we are helpless. we cannot leave our homes and go anywhere else. amy: officials say a build-up of highly flammable methane gas at the dump spontaneously combusted after temperatures topped 44 degrees celsius, or more than 110 degrees fahrenheit. it's part of a blistering spring heat wave across large swaths of india and pakistan that's seen daytime high temperatures break all records. about 1/5 of all reptile species, including crocodiles and turtles, are at risk of extinction. that's the conclusion of a major new study published in the journal "nature." multiple factors are threatening reptiles including deforestation, urban encroachment, hunting and the climate emergency. the zoologist bruce young of natureserve co-led the study. >> reptiles represent a unique evolutionary heritage the tree of life. and if all of those 20% of
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reptiles that are threatened today go extinct, we will lose accumulation of 15 billion years of evolution that has led to these fascinating creatures that we see around us today. amy: authorities in southern california have declared an unprecedented water shortage emergency due to a record-breaking climate fueled drought. this past january, february, and march were the driest months in california's history. a spokesperson for the metropolitan water district of southern california said -- "we don't have enough water supplies right now to meet normal demand. the water is not there. this is unprecedented territory." under the emergency order, about 6 million californians have been ordered to restrict outdoor water usage to one day a week. this is adel hagekhalil of the metropolitan water district of southern california >> we are looking ahead and asking us all to work together come asking everyone to be ready
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to stretch the water we have so we all have enough water. and one day of watering a week is a good compromise -- isn't a good compromise, but if we don't see a change, we will do the next action. amy: a recent study in the journal "nature climate change" found the western united states are currently experiencing their worst drought in 1200 years. there are currently no vaccines are approved for children under the age of five. pfizer's vaccine has been approved for children five and over. meanwhile, the white house has announced a new effort to increase usage of paxlovid, pfizer's covid-19 antiviral pill, which can cut the risk of hospitalization and death by nearly 90% in patients who take the drug early in the course of an illness. many pharmacies report having an excessive amount of the drug.
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vice president harris began taking it after she tested positive for covid-19 earlier this week. the u.s. government has cleared guantánamo's youngest prisoner for release. hassan bin attash has been jailed by the u.s. for the last 20 years, even though has never been charged with a crime. he was just 17 years old when he was captured in karachi by pakistani security services in 2002 and turned over to the united states. attorneys say attash was tortured by the u.s. and its allies for up to 12 hours a day over a two-year period, including at a cia black site. the biden administration says attash will remain at the guantánamo bay prison while it tries to find a country willing to offer him rehabilitation. the u.s. supreme court heard oral arguments wednesday in a follow-up case to a landmark decision on tribal sovereignty handed down by the court just two years ago. justices will decide whether oklahoma and other states have
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criminal jurisdiction over crimes committed by non-indigenous people against native people within indian reservations. this case follows the landmark 2020 ruling, mcgirt v. oklahoma, which found that state authorities cannot criminally prosecute indigenous peoples under state or local laws, and should instead face justice under tribal or federal courts. indigenous communities in oklahoma are condemning the head of the state's republican party after he called for the disestablishment of the federally-recognized muscogee nation reservation. the inter-tribal council of the five tribes in oklahoma was responding to remarks made this week by john bennett, who's also a candidate for a u.s. congressional seat. bennett made more headlines this week after he called for the state killing of top infectious disease expert dr. anthony fauci. >> war with bureaucrats that have forced mask mandates on us.
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you know what? they're pushing this confusion down our throats now. by the way, we should try anthony found you put him in front of a firing squad. amy: earlier this year, dr. fauci told congress than attacks by republican politicians have led to death threats against him and his family. florida governor ron desantis has signed a bill establisng a first-of-its-kind elections police force. the republican-authored bill creates the "office of eleion crimes and security," staffed by about 25 new law enforcement positions. democrats and voting rights advocates sounded alarm over the plan, which could see people fined or jailed for things that were commonly accepted until a recent voter suppression bill became law, such as gathering ballots at churches or community centers before dropping them off at an official election drop box. democratic state representative yvonne hayes hinson said the new law solves a problem that does not exist. she added --
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"its implementation will put up additional barriers to voting and targets communities of color. this bullying tactic will intimidate and immobilize workers, families, and everyday people." a two-year study in minnesota has concluded the minneapolis police department engages in discriminatory, race-based policing. minnesota's department of human rights launched the probe almost -- after the police killing of george floyd. the report documented "racial disparities in how minneapolis officers use force, stop, search, arrest, and cite people of color." the report also determined that the minneapolis police department covertly uses social media to surveil black individuals and black organizations unrelated to criminal activity. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!,, the war and peace report. when we come back, harvard university's pledged to spend
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$100 million to create a fun who addressed the school's deep ties to slavery. we will speak with craig steven wilder, author of "ebony & ivy: race, slavery, and the troubled history of ameri's universities." stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]
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amy: "ka moun ke" by rokia traore. this is democracy now!,, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman, joined by my co-host nermeen shaikh. nermeen: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: harvard university has pledged to spend $100 million to redress the school's deep ties to slavery. the move comes after the school issued 130 page report tuesday that revealed at least 41 prominent people connected to the school owned enslaved people. the report states, "enslaved men
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and women served harvard presidents and professors and fed and cared for harvard students. moreover throughout this period of well into the 19th century, the university and its donors benefited from extensive financial ties to slavery." in school newspaper dedicated its front page, listing the names of individuals enslaved by leadership, faculty, staff, donors at harvard university between 1636 and 1783. they wrote -- the editor's note "for these people, we often know only their nicknames. for a few, we know only their race and gender stop this is the result of the systemic erasure that to this day continues to deny enslaved people their histories." we begin today looking more at the new report "harvard & the
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legacy of slavery" about how ensled peoplare usedo serv hvard stunts and facult >> the edence of the legcy of avery in the landsca. yocan go ttheld burl groundnd see t headstones. one, airl, was enslaved to a treasurer and fellow at harvard university. we also knoweveral o harvard's priden whoived in a building stl standing on campus today, owned enslaved people of african origins. among them -- amy: an excerpt from the video that accompanies the harvard report. in this clip, telling the striven african teenage boy who was later dissecd and studied by harvard prossor.
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>> partilarly agic fure, ly 17 yes old. at the end of six months to a year being on display, he takes his own life. he hangs himself. but his tragedy does not end with this debt. when he kills himself, they give his body to harvard. >> a harvard faculty member conducted a dissection of sturman's body, to sy-- ad made casof his body that reins in t museum. >> hiskeleto teaching tool. they say it is left in the care -- with irony -- of the professor. sturman is measured and put in a linear position between whites and great apes.
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not only is hisody ing deroyed, h is also bei turn intthis point of data to prove his own inferiority. amy: an excerpt from the video with the new harvard report titled "harvard & the legacy of slavery." the report does not mention harvard is facing a lawsuit from a descendant of two enslaved people named renty and delia who were forced to post -- to pose for the photographs in 1850 by a harvard professor. tamara lanier filed the reports and the university is unfairly profiting from their images. in response to harvard's new report, she tweeted -- "stop gas lighting us, harvard. if harvard truly embraced the principles in the report, the lanier v. harvard lawsuit would not be assessed very. for more, we're joined by m.i.t. professor craig steven wilder, was long followed this issue closely. the author of "ebony & ivy: race, slavery, and the troubled
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history of america's universities." welcome back to democracy now! we interviewed you almost a decade ago when your book came out. can you respond now in 2022 to harvard university saying they are committing $100 million to deal with their connections to slavery? and talked about the significance of their findings. >> and happy to be back. i think it is been a long road. as you point out, it is been basically 20 years since bruce evans became the president of brown university in 2003. media attention turned to the public sort of secret of brown's extensive ties to the slave trade. simmons back then commissioned a report that was eventually published in 2006 that actually laid out ground's extensive ties
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to slavery in the slave trade and came forward with recommendations. we now sit, as you say, 19, 20 years later, and harvard has come forward with this report. that has been a new journey. but the report documents and extraordinarily extensive, deep history between the university and slavery that begins at its founding in 1636. almost immediately, harvard had a man who was referred to as "the moore" and was used to serve the students. he likely arrived in massachusetts on a ship named the desire, the first slave ship to leave new england, carrying captive enslaved indians into bermuda and the west indies where they were sold for various goods, including africans. harvard's ties to slavery begin with the founding of the institution. as the report lays out, harvard
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dependent upon slavery and the slave economy but in new england but also in the south and west indies, for virtually all of its history. harvard's history of slavery goes well into the late 19th century. i would add, after its ties to slavery's end, and somewhat end involuntarily, harvard goes to the work of erasing the story of slavery from its past. so we are really only beginning to roncile a to real rule the dp ts this institutn has to slavery. nermeen: professor wilde in addition to this clear complicity between harvard university and other elite universities to slavery, there was also the question in the report that was raised about harvard faculty advancing theories of racial difference and eugenics. could you talk a little bit about that?
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>> one of the striking findings is in the 19th century as race science really comes to dominate the academy, it is the period when science really comes to take over in the modern university. that part of it modernity is its claim to science, it's claimed expertise, its claims to a kind of precision connected and agree search. and the way that happens is the scientist really turned themselves over to the slave economy. they become the chie defenders of slavery. not just at harvard, but at universities across the united states. grace science. louis agassiz that is mentioned in the beginning of your introduction, used enslaved people in the south carolina plantation for his research. enslaved a word used as research material on colleges and
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university campuses across the united states. dartmouth, one of the oldest medical schools, one of the college physicians actually used the body of an enslaved man. the description you gave earlier, it takes the body of the enslaved man and skins him. he hands the skin --tans the skin of this man uses it like leather and uses it to dress his instrument case and takes that skeleton and strings it together for instructional purposes. the beginning of science athe american college in american university is story of the violent consumption of enaved people. nermeen: as you pointed out rlier, the brown university report appeared in 2006 but was only in 2019 at the harvard
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president saidhat such research should be conducted at harvard. why did it take so long? what kind of pressure led to this? >> i always talk with bruce simmons at brown because i think the first african-american woman -- first woman and first person of color to heand an ivy league institution, she did a service in getting the story told. the brown report is a phenomenal document and a transformative moment in the history of higher education. in the aftermath of the report in 2006, brown's. institutions were largely silence on their ties to slavery. most of these institutions simply pretended this story was unique to brown alone. and what happened under the intervening years, his undergraduate students, faculty, graduate students, staff, librarians, archivists
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universities and colleges across the u.s. began to do grassroots work on their institutional ties to slavery. they put up exhibits in libraries, undergraduates did their senior theses on these topics. that is what kept the story alive. my sense is what has actually kept us focused on this is the research that thousands and thousands of people have done in courses, for instance, the harbor project began as a course virtually no support from the harvard administration. the administration largely ignored what was happening in the classroom and did not want to know with the findings were. that is also true of the courses that began at colombia and princeton and williams college. what is happening over the last decade or so is students have really not just produced a lot of the research that we are now beginning to wrestle with, but student activism has actually
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forced institutions to deal with its history. i would goack all went to th occupy movement, to the more recent black lives matter movement, and the decision that georgetown university students made in 2019. exactly two years ago, to tax themselves, impose fees on themselves in order to begin to pay reparations to the enslaved people who are used to both build georgetown and fund its first 50 years of existence, and there were sold in 1838 from maryland into louisiana and the profits from that sale were used toay off the debts of the llege. it was the undergraduates who restarted the reparations convsation. it was the undergraduates -- student activism that brought us back to this moment. amy: i want to turn to the short film again that premiered along with the launch of the harvard university report.
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in this clip, harvard professor describes how harvard law school was founded. >> in 1736, plantation owners became fearful that enslaved workers were plotting ainst them and they decided to crack down. >> the family was involved in putting down the slaves uprising. a lot of head chopping, decapitations to make people as examples my burningeople. >> iac sior migred backo wngland to h huge propert , sevel hundreacres of ld. broht enslaveworkers om the caribbe to work. eventually, isc royal, jr. nates lands tharvard iversi, which e univerty
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thenells d uses tand dow the fit profesrship of law at harrdversit >> se peopleake thats the founding of the harvard law school. amy: craig steven wilder, this is pretty powerful stuff. what we talking about here, i mean, it is just a story that some have known in this country but -- and it certainly goes further than harvard -- but the story of harvard law school and its connection to the caribbean slave trade? if you can explain who the royal family are in the fact you have this endowed chair as well at harvard law school named for them? >> the royal family, at some point it traces back to in a tuba plantation family in the 18th century. they were moved to medford, massachusetts, just outside
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cambridge in boston later in the century. isaac roya j,n that sll plantion, ha some enslave pele. that is thfamily that eventually actually donates the land that helps to fund and begin the law professorship at harvard. i would point out this is the story actually professional education broadly, let us call schools in the 18th century began with the dissection and consumption of the bodies of enslaved black people and often native americans. they begin -- the very first medical school in north america, ich is nothe univsity of pennsylvia, th was the collegof philalphia, bins whheolonl legislure transfers the dy of a black person to the scientists so they can do a public dissection and show the new medical art, display them and display the necessity of them. law schools at harvard, yale,
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d colombia have similar origin stories. there tied directly to slavery. law students at those schools who have been doing a lot of the research to expose the institutional ties to slavery. i would add this new schools also have these ties stop the professionalization o-- t arrival of business on campus an academic pursuit is very much tied to the evolution of the slave economy in the 19th century. and for institutions like mine, m.i.t., here in cambridge, the engineering schools and technical schools also have their origins in the 19th century slave economy. in would not be here if context out -- m.i.t. would not be here if the cotton textile. if it wasn't for them, it was that group who needed eineers to build machines and improve
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the efficiencies. professionalization in higher education, the arrival of the professionals is very much the story of the power and influence of the 18th and 19th century slave economy. amy: as we noted, the new harvard report does not been to the university facing a lawsuit from a descendant of two enslaved people named empty and to leah -- renty and delia were who were forced to pose for the photographs in 1850 by a harvard professor. in response to the report, linear tweeted, harvard truly embrace, the loss would not be necessary. we spoke to her in 2019 about her lawsuit. close last week, my attorneys and i filed a claim against harvard. i am asking for the return of my
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enslaved ancestors images and the complaint is more than just the complaint of images, it is a history lesson. specifically, it points to the exportation of slaves and how universities like harvard, continue to profit. amy: if you can comment on what tamara lanier is calling for and also the recommendations of the report, like working with historically black colleges and universities, professor wilder? >> i one of the striking elements of the right or is the acknowledgment of harvard's link to ties to slavery. you can find something similar for most of our elitist educational institutions. harvard's ties to slavery begin with its founding in 1636. but they continue after the end
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of slavery in massachusetts, roughly 1783. they continue until the civil war. what is striking is even after the civil war, harvard continues to have ties to slavery because slavery still exists in places like cuba and brazil and universities are actively pursuing those unfree economies. one of the things i had written in my book is that in the 18th and 19th century, you could judge the value or the prominence of university by its collection of human remains. universities and colleges actively collected human beis d mples ofuman beings. it wasart of t evoluti of scnce, parcularly e evolion ofhe race scien that drove the scientific revoluti. at ihappeng curreny i in thilawsuiit also invves wh the rept lays out as at
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thousas of remns of man beings that are currently held in the harvard museum. thousands. most of those remns are lkely nave amecan. they havidentifi at least5 th are elaved africans. one can go university by university and see the way in which the 19th century and 18t centy legacy orace scice continues to play out on our campuses, and we literally live with the bodies of enslaved people and the bodies of indigenous peopleho were consumed in the process of building our institution. not just in the cemetery, but also in the museums and the libraries. to come to the recommendations, i think the recommendations in a number of things, including building on the georgetown example, establishing relationships to defendant communities, native, and african
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-- and of african dissent. memorializing continuing to do research on harvard's ties to slavery and the legacy of slavery at harvard. reaching out to historically black colleges and universities to establish educational partnerships. really creating a legacy of slavery fund and a dung hundred million dollars to fund all of these promises and promising some long-term institutional account ability of these questions. amy: we want to thank you for being with us, craig steven wilder, m.i.t. professor of american history, author of "ebony & ivy: race, slavery, and the troubled history of america's universities." on friday, harvard university will be holding an all-day symposium telling the truth about all this, reckoning was slavery and his legacies at harvard and beyond. among those speaking is the former head of brown, now had a prereview and am historically
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black college, ruth simmons. as well as a number of the people who did the report, dean of the hard gerd reichlin institute and even makes candy. we will link to that event that is happening on friday. next, as the biden administration orchestrates a prisoner swap with russia to free trevor reed, we will look at the case of wnba all-star brittney griner, detained in russia since february. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]
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amy: "bleed" by stew and the negro problem. this is democracy now!,, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. many were surprised when news broke wednesday that russia and the u.s. had participated in a prisoner swap. russia released marine veteran trevor reed in exchange for a
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russian pilot jailed in connecticut on drug charges. reed had been imprisoned in russia since 2019. his parents had campaigned passionately for his release, with protests and multiple hunger strikes. they met with president biden at the white house last month. reed's father joey reed told cnn he spoke to his son soon after his release. >> he seemed to be in shock a little bit. >> they had moved into a moscow prison this week. i think it is the same prison that paul wheeling was held in for a long time. they flew him from there to turkey and then quickly told us the american plane pulled up next to the russian plane and they walked both as a cross at the same time like you see in the movies. amy: trevor reed's father referred to another u.s. citizen still held by russia, former marine paul whelan, who was convicted of espionage charges he has denied, in a trial u.s. officials have said was unfair.
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the release has led to growing calls for the bide administration to do more to help free u.s. basketball star brittney grine a blk, lesbian wnba player. she was detained in russia after she was pied up at a russian airport on february 17 on allegations of carrying cannabis oil vape cartridges. she faces a prison sentence of up to 10 years. brittney griner is a two-time olympic gold medalist and a seven-time wnba all-star, and has played for a team in russia for the past seven years. as well as in the united states. state department spokesperson ned price said a u.s. official was able to meet with her last month. he spoke on cnn. >> artificial found brittney griner to be in good condition and we will continue to do everything we can to see to it she is treated fairly throughout this ordeal. amy: this comes as the former professional basketball player lisa leslie told the "i am athlete" podcast last month that
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the women's basketball world was not told to advocate vocally for griner's release. >> what we were told was to not make a big fs about it so th could not use her as pawn,
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written griner home. but it is impossible to know. the truth is, when you think about the silence and you ask, who does the silence benefit? i think there is a chance this silence most benefits the government defined favorable outcome for them. not necessarily for the life of brittney griner. it is worth questioning, like
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these other families ended up questioning trevor reed's family, they silent for a while and then spoke out and let this advocacy and this public campaign fearlessly for years. we can see the results now. nermeen: cou you talk about who she is? she wrote an autobiography soon after she joined thenba called "in my skin." what does she talk about in that book? >> brittney griner is an incredible athlete. she is also to me a really important political and cultural figure. one of the most important political figures in women's basketball and in sports in the last 10 years. she has been overcoming huge obstacles throughout her entire career. in college, she went to a,
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baylor university in texas, that had anti-gay rules at the time in 2012. she graduated in 2013. it was still in the student handbook. she wasn't allowed to come out by her coaches and the administration. soon after she was drafted by the wnba, she wrote this autobiography where she talked openly and critiqued that strategy to not let her come out publicly, to be denied her full self-expression. she even wrote in the autobiography, becoming a professional basketball player wasn't just about making money or proving myself. was about freedom, too. so brittney griner has been seeking freedom for a long time. she has long faced vitriol and public backlash around questioning her gender. she is somebody who has become an outspoken advocate for mental
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health. she is someone who is proud of being a lesbian. i think she's a huge part of why the wnba is now so supportive of its players being openly part of the lgbtqia+ community. that wasn't always the case in the wnba. i think her story was a huge turning point. america we just have 30 seconds, but showing the disparity in pay for women and men in u.s. ports, why she had to go to russia to begin with? the difference between what she gets paid in phoenix as a basketball star and when she gets paid in russia? >> women make a fraction of what man in the nba make stop women in the wnba. it is a credible part of making the sellers -- critical part to go and play abroad. that is the reason she was in russia in the first place. that is significant to bring up and the wnba started to bring up
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this point of pay and equity in sports. this goes beyond economic issues. this is a political issue in my opinion. we know in order to get brittney griner home, the white house needs to intervene and that is why it is so important right now in a timely matter and subject to speak out to hold our administration accountable for bringing brittney griner home and shaken her as a cultural, political icon. amy: thank you for being with us, maya goldberg-safir, independent writer and audio producer. this is democracy now!,, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. ukraine says russia is intensifying its attacks in eastern ukraine. this comes as u.n. secretary general antonio guterres is in kyiv to meet with ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. earlier today, nato secretary general jens stoltenberg revealed nato nations have pledged and provided more than $8 billion in arms and military aid to ukraine.
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on wednesday, russian vladimir putin warned western nations about intervening in the war in ukraine. >> if someone decides to intervene in the current events in ukraine from the outside and create unacceptable strategic threats with russia, then they must know our response, our tele-tray strikes will be lightning fast, quick. we have all the tools for this such that nuno's can boast of right now and we won't brag. we will use them if needed. everyone should know about it. we have made all the decisions in this matter. amy: putin's comments came just after his foreign minister accused the united states and its allies of waging a proxy war in ukraine. putin also met with the u.n. general on tuesday. we are joined now by anatol lieven, senior fellow at the quincy institute for responsible statecraft. author of numerous books on russia and the former soviet republics, including "ukraine and russia."
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his latest piece is headlined "the horrible dangers of pushing a u.s. proxy war in ukraine." explain what you mean by a proxy war and what is happening right now. >> the reason i wrote the piece was in response to lloyd austin's statement that your strategy is now to weaken russia throh the war in ukraine. basically, that is what a proxy war is. the u.s. trying to use the war in ukraine not just to defend ukraine, but a wider, strategic objective. the worrying think about this is this has been accompanied by re and more statements in the u.s. and nato about helping ukraine to win most of it that means helping ukraine to fight
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russia and prevent russia conquering ukraine, than that is completely legitimate. but there have been suggestions that winning means actually helping ukraine to reconquer all the territory it has lost to russia since 2014, including territory that russian regards as part of its national territory. that would represent a really drastic escalation of u.s. aid with very, very dangerous potential consequences. nermeen: the question is whether the americans think that a government apart from putin's might be willing to relinquish areas,ncluding crimea. >> if they think that, they are totally wrong. if you look at russian public opinn, if you look at the statements of basically the whole of the russian political
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establishment, including, by the way, alexei navalny, that all now regard crimea as part of russian national territory. this, by the way, adjusting to be supported by very much majority of the population of crimea, which is heavily russian -- ethnic russian. so to bring about russian surrender of crimea, you would have to basically destroy the russian state. now, at that point, the russian threats of using nuclear missiles begin to look a lite less like -- lackluster and more like something that could actually happen. amy: how can that be avoided, anatol lieven? >> my sense is it is quite likely if russia can conquer the whole ofhe donbas, which it has not done so far. but if he can do that, precisely
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because russia has had such heavy casualties, russia might stop and offer a cease-fire and negotiations. the ukrainian government has put forward some very sensible proposals for the peace settlement aced on the treaty of neutrality -- based on the treaty of neutrality and compartmentalizing -- essentially, moving the ukraine war as it was done with the turkish invasion of cyprus 45 years ago. that in my view would be a much more sensible approach for the west to support. in other words, some art the defense of ukraine and ukrainian independence and sovereignty but not use ukraine -- u.s. goals.
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remember, it is one thing for ukraine to defend its cities against russian attack, which they have done tremendous access and skill and courage with help of western weaponry, it is a different matter forkraine to go on the offensive and try to actually attack. at that point, ukraine itself would lose terribly in terms of casualties. lloyd auin's comments and those of the british government as well apply war that will essentially go on forever, an endless war against russia. we have to ask what that will do to ukrai, what it will do to the world economy, and what it will do to europe. nermeen: on this question of weapons supplied, western weapons apply to ukraine, russia has attempted to disrupt the
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supplies to ukrainian territories but they have not yet done so, for example, in the supply routes, through supply routes in poland. what would happen if russia were to begin doing that? >> that would be an attack on nato member. there would then be tremendous pressure i think in america to launch a no-fly zone, just in the american air force into action in ukraine. american planes within be shot down and pilots killed by missile batteries based in russia itself. how long they would it be before america would start attacking those batteries in russian territory? you would then have a situation in which the united states and russiaere firing missiles into each other's territory.
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two nuclear armed superpowers with the ability between them to destroy humanity. that is precisely the scenarios that generations of u.s. presidents during the cold war took very great care to avoid because the risks are too great. now, that did not mean in any way -- soviet rule, soviet oppression, communist dictatorship in eastern europe. it was simply a reflection of a recognition of the reality of the hideous dangers involved in a direct military confrontation with moscow. nermeen: you mentioned that ukraine had put forward sensible proposals with rpect to negotiations with russia. now lavrov has just said the west arming of ukraine is jeopardizing negotiations. where does russia stand on the question of negotiating peace
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with ukraine? what are their demands and how close are those demands being fulfilled? >> well, toward the end of last month, as if the two sides were in fact moving closer together on this,ussia and bennett its maximal goals in ukraine -- a bennett its maximal goals ukraine. president zelenskyy declared their willingness to find a new treaty of neutrality. as zieliki said, since nato refused admit ukraine, why not find a treaty of neutrality with strong guarantee for ukrainian sovereignty and security? since then, russia is clearly trying to occupy the full territory of the dons in eastern ukraine because russia has rognized the independence
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of the donbas on the full territory of the donbas but has not yet managed to conquer the whole of donbas. it seems to me this is the minimum that putin nds to be able to achieve in order to basically pretend to the russia people that this disastrous war has been some kind of russian victory. i think thats what the russian military arm are trying to do. if they can achieve that, which is not certain but they are making progress, and we have to see what russia does next. whether it stops or tries to go further. one can't say for sure, but i think given the enormous casualties russia has suffered and the impossibility they faced of actually capturing really big ukrainian cities, i think it is possiblehat one will then see
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a new russi attempt at a negotiated settlement. amy: can you talk about the possibility of it moving out, not just possibility, i mean, russia bombing -- the significance of although the being involved with this and what that means as well as overall you've written about this, i'm income the secretary of defense austin's change of rhetoric, winning and weakening. it is a whole new level right now. cooks unmold ova, it is difficult to say what is going on. you have a thread by russian general to physically cost ukraine to -- link amy: is it fair to say russia bombed it? hopes we don't know.
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>> i think it is perfectly likely it was the ukrainians, for perfectly the judgment reasons because it's owned russian intelligence is using it as a base. we're not quite clear what is going on. the greatest danger seemso me -- with the russian army so completely pinned down with ukraine, georgia could well take the opportunity to try to take back the territories -- the sepatist territories backed by russia. and so could -- it can make it a tip to take the whole, the armenian territory that russian peacekeepers are protecting. and you can see a great expansion of the war elsewhere. by the way, remember, there are an awful lot of armenians in america who would not be happy
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with this development. amy: just to be clear, it was a series of unexplained explosions that occurred in parts of trans-nestor, the breakaway territory within moldova. that doesn't with our show. anatol lieven, senior fellow at the quincy institute.÷÷ñ■ñ■ñ■ñ■■
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