tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC August 24, 2011 2:00pm-3:00pm PDT
healthy. if you look at some of the pew polling, you'll find we're at near low time lows, and -- it's fine to advocate, but you have to have some accountability with the audience. >> ari melber, another insightful observation that could improve our coverage. thanks for sharing. that does it for us. "hardball" with crist matthews starts right now. a dope, a joke and a fraud. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm ron reagan. leading off tonight, looking for love in all the wrong places. rick perry has leapt ahead of the republican field, the economy is in trouble, people think the country is headed in
the wrong direction action and president obama's approval ratings are in the tank. republicans should be thrilled, route? so why all the long faces? yesterday politico reported, and we're quoting here, that conservative elites consider rick perfectly a dope, michele bachmann a joke, and mitt romney a fraud. remember, that's conservatives talking. why republicans don't think much more of their candidates than you do? that's our top story. also, george w. bush -- bin laden is dead gadhafi is out and al qaeda is on the run. why does the white house seem to reluctant to make the cases for obama as a successful war. ? plus is the texas economy really the miracle that rick perry claims it is? if so, how much credit does he deserve? we'll take a close look, fair and balanced, you might say, at the so-called texas miracle.
forget seismologists, talk to the animals. at washington's national zoo yesterday, moments before the, apes sought high ground, lemurs sounded an alarmt and bird huddled together. what do 24th know? and let me finish with rick santorum's obsession with gays, marriage and your choice of paper products. we start with the republicans not charlie cook is nbc's political analyst and editor of the cook political report. and jonathan martin is senior political reporter for politico. welcome to you both. whether you look at the republican field, it seems to me that none of them are actually electable. the thing is i think it's a plea
eastboundo. it really is. but, you know, look, there's a lot of disillusionment. jonathan's piece yet really nailed it. i might add there's a lot of disillusion meant -- the president's job approval ratings in the gallup poll last week was 8%. the think about it is they may be disillusioned, but i think frankly at the end of the day will they vote a year from november? you bet. doesn't that apply to the democrats, too? they're not going to go voting for rick perry. isn't one of the big problems is they are a fractured party?
you have the bachmann perry wing and those two don't see eye to eye. >> both parties certainly have their problems right now. i think it's more accuse in the republicans part, of course, president obama doesn't have a primary. usually when an incumbent presidents do lose, it's often proceeded by -- and it seems like he won't have it this time. you talked to senior levels, and they really want more options in this field. statistic donor class especially still really wants chris christie to run. he's said repeatedly he will not do it, but that longing is still there. but if you have a two-person race eventually, you'll see some fracturing. romney will be stronger in a place like new hampshire, perry certainly in south carolina, so
i think you're going to see that class, part it cultural between those two candidates, but at the end of the day, charlie gets to the central point here, ron, and that is the president running for reelection with the unemployment challenge being where it is is regardless of who the nominee is, it's going to be a competitive race, as long as they nominate something that is something of a viable candidate. swathing of this country are red -- >> who is that viable candidate? both of you, when you look at the individuals there, and let's call romney or perry, if you want, the kind of nominal front-runner here but perry's positions on a lot of issues are way, way out in right field. the general public isn't going to go for that. romney, you've got to say it, even if the primaries, and i know people don't like to talk about it, but the evangelical
christian vote in the republican party is huge, and they are not going to vote for a mormon. they're not. >> i think evangelical christian conservatives will not vote for a mormon in the primaries, but in a race against president obama, i don't think they're going to defect. to your larger point, you have a republican tradition, eisenhower, nixon, 230erd, bush 1, bob dole, your dad, that republican tradition, if there's a republican nominee in that tradition, i think, with 8.a% unemployment, i think it's sort of a no-brainer. >> wlos that republican? are there any that fill those shoes? >> i think there's an argument to be maid that romney certainly could. i think huntsman certainly could if he could find more appeal within thinks primary. >> huntsman is at 1%.
romney is the guy they're calling a fraud. >> i think, rob, certainly perry, it's an open question, and in fact, i think the biggest question now hanging over this race, primary or general election, could be, is rick perry a viable general election candidate? can he play in pennsylvania, ohio, michigan? look, i asked him that question last week, i said, what do you say to those folks in your party who say he can't play in pennsylvania? he can't play in an ohio? his response, his fairly curt response was they care about jobs in pennsylvania, too. which is shorthand for saying, look, as long as the economy is where it is, that that will trump any cultural differences. >> former florida governor jeb bush offered up a warning. let's have a listen to that.
that's politics, but just to stop there and say i'm going to win because i'm against what's going on, is not enough. >> i think when you start ascribing -- it turns off a bunch of people. >> rick perry is somebody who doesn't shy away from getting person with people. he demurad on that question. well, go ask him, he said. is that -- is jeb bush right? >> i think absolutely. they're the people that are going to be the deciders in this race, the independents. i think romney gets it, i think
as jonathan set, huntsman probably gets it. before he dropped out pawlenty certainly got it. the question is can a rick perry or michele bachmann, can they move out, become appealing enough and nonthreatening enough to independent candidates, and i think the jury is still out on that. >> does it strike you, of all the candidates, republican candidates in the race, only two, huntsman and romney have declared they accept evolutionary science? gingrich tried to have it both ways, but everybody else is anti-evolution, which is kind of startling to me. >> that was one, and the question, would you accept a package that had $10 in spending cuts for every dollar in new taxes? i have a lot of republican friends and business leaders that were sort of aghast at that. that's the kind of stuff that doesn't fly with independents. >> jonathan, what about sarah palin is she -- has she devolved
into irrelevancy at this point? does she still have a ghost of a chance? >>. >> oh, i think she has a loyal following certainly in this country, and i think she also retains a following among us in the news media, because she's good copy. so i think, when she does get in, if she does get in, it will generate significant attention. i guess my question about palin is are voters, gop primary voters still interested in her, not as something that they admire, who they respect, who they think has gotten a recall deal, but are they interested as a presidential candidate? certainly her supporters and their loyal are there, but can she appeal to the broader primary universe? >> why would you be for sarah palin instead of for rick perry or michele bachmann? i think as charlie said, the jury is still out on that.
i think it's an open question. >> charlie, is bachmann toast at this point because of perry getting into the race? >> i don't think so. i think there's a certainly flavor of the month here that perry is the new guy on the block? i think there's a certainly amount of that, but i still think it will be a knock down/drag out fight. romney's wrapped up the other one, then a finals between the winner of the winner of that -- i mean, you actually laid that out in the beginning. we see the contours of this race, and i seriously doubt if sarah palin gets in. >> there are three republicans still thinking about running, george pataki, rude,giuliani. taking palin out of it, pataki, giuliani, really? is anyone feeling a chill run up their spine with either of those two? >> i was joking on twitter,
yesterday, where is john roland, we're talking about former tristate governors here with christie in the mix, too. >> i think giuliani would probably have more impact in a place like new hampshire. but i think it's uncertainly -- it's really uncertainly to whether or not either are going to run. the republican party is in a conservative place, and i'm not sure why moderate politicians would have much appeal at this movement. >> we'll keep watching this, of course, as the debates and everything else proceed. thank you, charlie cook, and jonathan martin, appreciate you being here. >> thank you. coming up, george bush was good at dressing up and standing in front of the mission accomplished signs. >> president obama is good at accomplishing missions, so why isn't he making the most of being a war president? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.
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even add one more name to the wink/wimp list of those who say they will not be nominees. marco rubio says he loves the senate too much and would kindly decline an offer. last week south carolina governor nicky hallie who dismissed the idea, and we've already ahead no-thank yous from newt gingrich and governor chris christie. when that phone rings you guys will say no? but wait, republican presidential hopeful jon huntsman said he would be open to running as vp, as long as he doesn't have to run with mitt romney. we'll be right back. back pain. then i tried this. it's salonpas. this is the relief i've been looking for. salonpas has 2 powerful pain fighting ingredients that work for up to 12 hours. and my pharmacist told me it's the only otc pain patch approved for sale
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welcome back to "hardball." the president said this on monday. in which is clear, the gadhafi regime is coming to an end, and the future of libya is in the hands of its people. >> his succeeds as a war president is unquestionable, initial to helping to take out two of the world's most well-known terrorists, he's presided over troof, and the wind-down in iraq, yet he seems reluctant to fully embrace the role as a war president. is he missing an opportunity. eugene robinson, and rob christ christie, welcome to you both. >> good evening. >> eugene, he got osama bin
laden, he pulled the trigger on the somali pirates, he doubled down in afghanistan. what else did he do here? lots of stuff. he's been pretty good, it seems to me at sending troops overseas to do things. by traditional republican standards, how is obama doing as a war president? >> well, what he has done, i would say, ron, is neutralized the traditional republican attack on democrats that they are wusses who can't be trusted to defend america or project american military force the way republicans would. clearly obama is knolls hesitant to do so, and he's clearly rather skillful at doing so, because he's had these successes. i think that's the major political impact. >> ron, if george w. bush, or for that matter mitt romney had somehow nail osama bin laden orring flying those drone
missions over pakistan, what would republicans be saying? >> i'll give the president all the due in the world. it was an important mission, and whether that's president obama or any president, i will give him his due. my problem, however, ron, is we keep hearing about the successes, it is arab spring in my opinion has been a disaster. for the last 30 years, hosni mubarak has kept the peace with israel. now you have him in jail, you have insurgents on the border on the sinai shooting rockets into vale. you have a situation in libya where he only said we would lead from behind we don't know who these people in the transitional council are. what happens when gadhafi is gone? will it fall into something like somalia where you have warlords? we just don't know yet. >> ron -- >> go ahead, eugene. >> that same argument could have
been made about the decision of the president you worked for, to invade iraq, and to take out osama bin laden, who after all had provided stability in iraq. not the chaos that we have seen since? in fact, this is one thing that obama has continued from bush, a kind of democracy agenda, and i don't know why all of a sudden you would object to that or find something wrong with that. >> ron, that's a good question. >> absolutely. >> if you will. >> to eugene robinson, he knows the united states, with the coalition of the willing, seeking resolution after resolution, recognizing that iraq was a threat to the democracies, not only in the western world, but in the middle east, the united nations, working in concert with the united states and her allies, determined it was time for him to go. what president obama has said
we're not at war with libya, i don't need to go to the congress or the war powers resolution to seek congressional approval, because it's not a war, yet he wants to take credit in a war in libya he's allegedly leading from behind? that's the difference, gene. he worked with great britain, he worked with our allies and a coalition of the willing, and we took down a dictator there. >> last time i checked, the u.n. and the arab league both wanted us to go into libya. >> correct, ron, but of course president obama said after initially committing u.s. troops and forces over in that part of the region said, no, we don't want american troops here, we're going to turn it over to nato, we're going to lead from behind. we're not at war, we're in a kinetic military activity. it's all silly. that's the difference between what president obama has done and what president bush did. >> you make a good point about
that silly business about it not being hostilities. when you're dropping bombs, i think that's pretty hostile. >> look, the constitutional issue is there, absolutely. president obama asserted executive powers that probably go beyond what the founders intended and what the war powers act intended, as has every president, including your dad, ron, going back as far as i can think, as far as i can recall. >> since world war ii, i think. >> it's the way it works now. but yes, it was ridiculous to say this was, you notice kinetic military activity or something, as opposed to hostilities, which clearly these were hostilities. it also was a fiction to say it's going to be led by nato. what is nato, in fact, if it doesn't have u.s. command and control, u.s. lift capability, u.s. logistical and intelligence support. it's not anything.
>> gene, how does obama play this on the campaign trail, though? he does seem reluctant to advertise himself as the war president, if you will. can he do a better job of that? how would he do that? >> i think he could talk about it more, and point out the successes he has had. you know, one reason he may be reluctant to do that is there's still a question mark to how the afghanistan escalation is going to work out and how the united states is going to strict extri itself? >> the president gets high marks on the handling of terrorism threats, 53% approve and 40% disapproved. ron, how do the republicans handle this politically? i don't think that they sound too well complaining about him getting osama bin laden or anything like that. how should they do this? >> i think this is one of the
areas that should be nonpartisan. i think osama bin laden was one of the most brutal tie rants, and whether it was president bush or president obama, and president obama, i applaud him for that, but moving forward, i think what's going to matter is what's going on on the ground in tripoli, iowa rather than tripoli, libya. the question is the economy, the domestic issues, and the jobs. bhil the president might tout what his believes his foreign policy credentials are, i think the american people will assess, as did he make it a better america than when he inherited it four years ago. i think at this point, the answer to that is no. >> it's always "the economy, stupid" as one famously said. it's the all-important struggle to obtain name recognition in the upcoming
election, but what to do when you're more well known on the international stage than here at home. that's next on "the sideshow." you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [ slap! ] [ slap! slap! slap! slap! slap! ] [ male announcer ] your favorite foods fighting you? fight back fast with tums. calcium rich tums goes to work in seconds. nothing works faster. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums listen to this. three out of four americans don't get enough vegetables. so here's five bucks to help you buy v8 juice. five bucks. that's a lot of green.
back to "hardball." now for "the shied sh-- sidesho" well, as it turns out, gop candidate jon huntsman has that part lick. the problem is there's been a bit of a language barrier. huntsman explained his problem to piers morgan on cnn. >> speak to me in mandarin. [ speaking foreign language ] >> what the hell have you just said to me? >> i said, whatever i say, you'll have no idea what it is,
and after that i said, my name is chinese, and i said i'm going to become the next president of the united states. for the billion people who live on this earth who know who i am and my chinese name, the unfortunate thing is i'm known by the wrong quarter of the world's population. >> kind of a unique dilemma. he did enjoy a bit of star power in washington last month when he was swarmed by a group of chinese tourists, all vying to snap a picture and get the candidate's signature. where nearly 60% of house members deciding not to participate in free town hall meetings in their home districts during the august recess, some voters have taken their frustration to the streets. chak the case of republican -- they were at least a two-hour drive from the home district ace population center. curious. let's see how yesterday's confrontation played out. >> who do he want?
>> hey, guys -- guys, can i speak for just a sect? [ chanting ] >> okay, guys, you guys want a town hall? you want a town hall? okay. be at the airport tomorrow, 4:00, we'll have a town hall in duluth at the airport at 4:00. >> and the people win. this may not bode well for some of his republican colleagues who have crafted other strategies to avoid angry confrontations at town has, some 'em preselecting attendees. that kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? now for the big number. believe it or not, even though most have made time to head home this month, neither chamber formally resisted, as a result, both are constitutionally required to meet at least once every three days. yesterday happened to mark a meeting day for members of the u.s. senate. despite being rattled by
yesterday's earthquake, they struck to the rules, securing a location in the basement of the postal square building not far from the capitol. a rushed official meeting did convene, and rushed as in really, really rushed, just how long did the session last before someone announced, okay, that's a wrap? 22 seconds. talk about short and sweet. no official business was handled. there's a shocker. that's tonight's big number. up next, rick perry is happily taking all the credit for job growth? texas, but is the texas economy a miracle or just a mirages? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. look at all this stuff for coffee. oh there's tons. french presses, espresso tampers, filters. it can get really complicated. not nearly as complicated as shipping it, though. i mean shipping is a hassle. not with priority mail flat rate boxes from the postal service. if it fits it ships anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. that is easy. best news i've heard all day! i'm soooo amped! i mean not amped. excited. well, sort of amped.
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143 points to be compact. the s&p 500 gained, as did the nasdaq with a 21-point move up. a lot of activity in the financial stocks today. bank of america soaring nearly 11%, very heavy volume. some analysts saying, hey, that stock simply got oversold. a lot of concerns around bank of america, but not today. gold a different story. gold had its worst day in three years, plunging almost 6% vgts investors cashed out and moved on to riskier stocks, down more than $100 an ounce. that-to ease some concerns, and research in motion, maker of blackberry gaining on reports that its new smartphone tablets will run on google's android applications. tivo also surging after hours. almost doubled the number of
customers at the over the previous quarter. not a bad day. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." if you've listened to rick perry, you've probably heard him talking about his jobs record in texas. 40% of all the jobs created in america from june of 2009 until the present were created in texas. i know how to create jobs. >> texas has become the job creating center of the entire united states. i'm proud of that. it didn't happen by accident. folks say how did you do that? what's the magic? and it's not magic.
it's actually common sense. >> if texas were a stand-alone entity, we would be somewhere i think around the 11th largest economy in the world. we're about the same size as russia. >> he probably just forgot to mention that texas has an unemployment rate of 8.4%, which is lower than the national average, about higher than some blue states such as new york and massachusetts. while it's true that texas produces a lot more jobs than in other states, critics have raised important questions like what kind of jobs is texas creating is it is the economic model one that americans should want to see on a national level? while we're at it, how much credit does governor perry deserve for the so-called texas miracle. we're joined by analyst and "the washington post" columnist ezra klein, and former u.s. congressman from texas, chris bell. welcome to you both. chris, you ran against rick perry, i believe, in a race, so you probably have a bead on this
whole texas miracle thing. is it a miracle down there, or is it something a bit less? >> he keeps painting a picture of this great utopia, unless he's going to take credit for the state of texas having a great deal of oil and gas. we've seen the economic book has -- and that's been around for a long, long time. we're tied for mississippi. so if people are looking to recruit those people with minimum wage experience, they need to set up shop here in
texas. >> i think i heard you talking about -- and apparently since 2008, and correct me if i'm wrong texas has lost 40,000 jobs in the private sector, but they've made up for it by hire in the government sector. 116,000 jobs. is that representative of the texas miracle? >> i don't want to take too much away. if the whole country is doing as well as texas, we would be doing better. part of it is more complicated than perry, but as you say, one thing they have been able to do, they've been able to add a lot of government jobs, and when you can add a lot, as the contends
keynesians will tell you, it has a lot of -- and it is in general quite complicated, as economies tend to be. >> rick, rick perry talks about the obama's stimulus money to boost the economy. he doesn't seem to have anything nice to says about the stimulus plan from president obama, so i'm assuming as governor of texas, he wants absolutely nothing to do with all that dirty money, huh? it was a great boom to texas, and we wouldn't be able to -- and it saved a lot of state workers jobs and schoolteachers jobs. >> so government spending is at least partly responsible for the
texas miracle, such as it is? >> he says house evil is the federal government is and how bad the stimulus was, but meanwhile, we took money. why we were safe is one area that is regulated is the mortgage industry. not so in other states where you saw it have such a horrible impact. the mortgage industry aside, there has been deregulation in texas, but what has it brought
texans in terms of quality of life? >> in the housing area you've had a lot of population growth, and that's an important thing and that had pretty bad consequences. on a related note, the spending cuts, the degree to which they are chopping deep into education, these are things an economy needs. you are destroying the education system, much as we're doing in my home state of california. people like -- even a household knows when you're having a tough time, the thing you probably don't want to cut back on is sending your kid to college. i don't want to take too much away from it, but i want to worry a bind of penny wiseness and pound foolishness. by not raising taxes, they have taken long-term growth away from the future of that state.
>> and, rick, is governor perry himself responsible for the follows he claims have let -- or to some extent did he inherit those policies? >> ron, it's chris -- >> i'm sorry. >> you're thinking you're talking to rick perry, but you're not -- >> my apologies. >> we all sound the same down here. >> i asked people to look at what problems he's responsibility for, because they'll come up with a big round zero. he hasn't championed any programs during his campaigns ge george bush when he ran, pell put into effect. rick perry was basically happy to adopt a lot of programs, none of which were his own, so when
you look at credit, he really doesn't deserve any. we'll leave it there, ezra klein and chris bell of texas. a remarkable story. the animals seemed to anticipate yesterday's earthquake. what did they know that we didn't? this is "hardball," only on msnbc. [ artis brown ] america is facing some tough challenges right now. two of the most important are energy security and economic growth. north america actually has one of the largest oil reserves in the world. a large part of that is oil sands. this resource has the ability to create hundreds of thousands of jobs. at our kearl project in canada, we'll be able to produce these oil sands with the same emissions as many other oils and that's a huge breakthrough. that's good for our country's energy security and our economy.
relatives of 9/11 victims were in washington today to meet with attorney general eric holder, following allegations that some may have had their phones illegally hacked by reporters working for british newspapers owned by rupert murdoch. the relatives want to cooperate with the fbi and department of justice to determine if such hacking was attempted and/or occurred. we'll be right back. almost tastes like one of jack's cereals.
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environmental expert jeff corwin. welcome. >> hey there, ron, how are you? >> i'm fine. you weren't at the zoo just before the quake hit, but apparently many of these animals reacted. what did they do? did they panic? is that what's going on? >> i think we're getting a number of responses here. of course, most of this is based on anecdotal evidence and observations, and really less than scientific evidence, but for many, many years, there have been lots of observations where we have seen animals react to some sort of environmental event, such as an earthquake or a tsunami. we see them go into panic mode, an irritated mode, sort of a fight or flight responsibilities when something like this happens. >> we've known about this for a long time, but nobody can quite figure out what's going on. what are the ideas floating around to why animals, but partial not humans should be so sensitive to intending
earthquakes? it's an interesting question. and confide a conundrum. i think probably the simplest and most logical explanation is they creatures are is finely tuned, highly plugged into their environment. one-dimensional relationship when it comes to our connection to the environment. it really is in the immediate time and our moment of being around. for example, when we experience an earthquake, it is right there in the moment as it happened. but look at something like a great ape. this is a creature that lives in a multidimensional experience. it is not just faceted to the earth. it is climbing through canopies. moving through branchs. it is experiencing things in a very different way. we can look at biology of animals. for example, creatures likes sharks. they is what is called the lateral line that lateral line allowes this animal to actually
sense and pick up pulse like movements from almost half a mile away. or alligators have sensory sites around their pit where they can depekt movement and changes in the water. so it is really ill logical or it is very plausible that these animals are connected and plugged in to the world, especially with something like a geological event. far beyond what the capacity is for human beings. >> now, do different animals seem to react in different ways? for instance, i gather that flamingos react in a certain way to this sort of thing? >> i think what is interesting about the observations of the way these animals reacted, is that it was very much in tune in the way they manage dangerous situations in the environment where they live. for exam, flamingos sort of rely on safeties in numbers. so literally within seconds of the earthquake, the flamingos began to cluster together.
and in a tightly bound flock. and that's very logical. for example wheb these animals get attacked by birds of prey or other predators, they'll come together because chances are, you are less likely to get eaten and you're hoping your neighbor next to you will have worse luck, and he's taken. you look at something like the primates. when the great apes detected something going on, about ten seconds before the earthquake, they climb to the top of their cage as they would probably climb to the top of the canopy in a rain forest. so many of the animals reacted in the way they would in a dangerous situation, in the environment. for example wbt beavers and some ducks immediately took to the water. >> yeah and my cats at home fell asleep. >> that's those west coast cats. te have seen it before. 5.9 is nothing to them. now, understandably, human
beings, having noticed the fact that animals seem to react to earthquakes on the way, have tried in the past to sort of harness this ability of animals. are we having any success whatsoever with that? >> well, we look at animal behavior all the time. we augment it and twist and apply it to our own survival and technologies. so above and beyond our ability to manage a situation like this, we're looking at these animals when it comes to flight when it comes to computer technology, and we have actually looked and the physiology of creatures for example like sea turtles and birds, you know, and an animal like something as simple as a pigeon, inside basically above the beak area, there is a region that like a natural compass that allowes this animal to target and accurately fly its way when it is navigating from one point to the other.
so we can see that perhaps there is a connection between the change in the earth's geology and that navigating ability and we learn from that ability of nature and apply it to our own technology for survival. >> jeff, we got to leave it there. thank you for dropping by. if we see animals heading for the hills, we know what it means. >> go under the sofa, put a helmet on. >> dive under the dash. when we finish, what i really think about republican rick santorum and his whimsical logic. [ female announcer ] so you think your kids are getting enough vegetables?
let me finish tonight with republican presidential candidate rick santorum. santorum is lately taken to comparing marriage equality to a choice of paper products. according to his logic, gay people mustn't be allowed the same opportunity to wed that straight couples enjoy, because well a paper towel is not a napkin. if only santorum was only a lonely homophobic voice shrieking in the wilderless. but whether you choose bounty or brawny, you sign on for the inappropriately named -- even leaving aside the fact that some of us have been known to employ a paper towel as a napkin, it is an odd nonsensical comparison. santorum's larger point seems to have his discon for the with
traditional marriage being redefined but what tradition does he have in mind? marriage has in various times and places in history been treated as a property arrangement with husbands owning their wives as they would cattle. is that the tradition santorum seeks to revive in in late 19th century, men were entitled to beat their wives as long as they used a stick with a circumference no larger than their thumb, the so-called rule of thumb. santorum and many of his anti-gay colleagues can do better than paper towels. they're found of claiming if gay people would be allowed to wed we would have to allow polygamy, incest and beast ality. this is so absurd some people find it difficult to argue against. if you find yourself similarly flum iksed, just point out this distinct. laws against polygamy are nonexclusion airy. whether you are gay or straight, black or white, christian or plus mus