Skip to main content

tv   Lockup Raw  MSNBC  December 29, 2012 8:00pm-9:00pm PST

8:00 pm
would you be willing to cooperate with the d.a. against your brother. i was like if my brother did it, yes, i would. i want the person that stabbed my daughter to death and set her on fire, yeah, i want that person to burn, too. due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised.
8:01 pm
>> msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. now, the scenes you've never seen, "lockup: raw." >> what did i tell you way ahead of time? leave that alone. let god take care of that. it ain't your business to take care of that, man. >> they are the prison stories best described by one word. >> when i came to prison i was a kid. i had to do what i had to do to survive. >> you don't know how many men you've infected with hiv? >> probably enough. >> he was convicted of three rapes but he told us he had raped 22 women total. >> after performing the rapes i would literally scare these women to death. >> and the word is -- >> when i talk to people about "lockup" they're really surprised when i tell them our
8:02 pm
lead field producer is a woman, susan carney. and she does a great job of capturing life behind bars in very, very difficult environments. she sat across from serial killers, rapists. she's seen stabbings. it's amazing how she keeps her cool even when inmates cross the line with her. >> and one of those times would involve a particular rule violation that occurred dozens of times during our stay at the holman correctional facility in alabama. >> there was an unusual phenomenon at holman prison. they had a big problem with public masturbation. they were dealing with the problem as best they can. if a person got caught, they were immediately put into lockup and they had to go through certain programs in order to get out of lockup. >> the violation is known as rule 38. and the prison's warden had developed a no-nonsense approach to dealing with it. >> my rule is, if you get caught with a 38, there's no questions asked. we're locking you up.
8:03 pm
we'll sort it out later, but for the time being, you're going to lockup. that's just automatic. okay? the first offense is 90 days, second time i double it, third time it goes to 270, the fourth time it's a year. >> but it happened a lot for some reason there. it was getting to the point where, particularly in the lockdown facility, you'd walk down the tier and all you'd see are hands going. it gets pretty unnerving after a while. i attribute it to the fact that there were a tremendous amount of very young men locked up there, with very long sentences. and this was just one way they decided to manifest their sexuality. >> if there's a female that excite me sexually, you know what i'm saying, you know, i tend to expose myself to them if i take a liking to them, right. >> why? >> because it's the only way to get sexual healing, you know what i'm saying? ain't no sex magazine in the prison no more. they took all that out of the alabama prison system.
8:04 pm
>> inmate terrence mosley was a frequent rule 38 violator. >> it just a thing i got for women, you know what i'm saying. to okay, i got to go through all this here just because i like women, then i got to go through it. >> okay, you like women, but that offends women. it offends women. >> i might have to find something else to do then. >> for chronic rule 38 violators, that something else might be finding a higher power. >> i was a fellowship, a man who share our experience, strength and hope that we might solve our common problem and hopefully to recover from the sexual addiction. the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop compulsive sexual behavior. >> besides going to lockup, inmates caught exposing themselves must also attend sex and love addicts' meetings. moderated by a staff counselor, they're similar to alcoholics
8:05 pm
anonymous meetings. >> i used to tell myself, there ain't no problem with me. getting up every morning, going to find women to masturbate in front of. i used to say, that's a choice i'm making. >> we discovered that johnny perkins, serving a life sentence for attempted murder and robbery, was a veteran of the group and an authority on rule 38. >> when i first came to prison, in '86, it was unheard of. you know, public masturbating, you know. i think maybe i was one of the first that really started. i have over 20 years experience in doing this. i guess because i don't know, i guess, the excitement, i guess. or just feeling some type of connection because i know that's a woman and i know she's seen me, you feel? >> it was clear from talking to
8:06 pm
him that he had been caught enough, locked up enough, to the point where he really had the system worked out. >> i still get up every morning, go around the whole institution where i can go, to see where the females is working. even if a female is working in a particular spot where i feel like i can masturbate in her presence and get away with it, because that's part of it, getting away. not going to lockup for it. >> though we had covered the sex and love addicts' group, interviewed both staff and inmates about rule 38 and had been exposed to numerous examples of the violation, we weren't quite done with it. ♪ then it was more than it was an angel ♪ ♪ off in the streets in the clubs looking for danger ♪ ♪ and every thug that knew we was there ♪ ♪ lap dances and taking chances without a care ♪ >> stop. >> when we heard anthony patterson and eric blanding rehearsing on the yard, we had no idea we would soon be in the middle of another rule 38 drama.
8:07 pm
>> i'm saying it's going to be a masterpiece and i think i want the world to hear it. you know what i'm saying? to see if he's got a gift. the guys in here still have. i got a sensitive side, don't think that my demeanor, this patch, it's not me, you know what i'm saying? i might look like damn, he's a thug, [ bleep ]. i'm a good guy. >> we were wrapping up for the day. you know, he shook my hand. i said good-bye, i turned my back on him and started talking to another inmate. pretty soon after that, an officer came running by us, saying that guy anthony you were just talking to is going into lockup. we grabbed our camera, ran with the officer, trying to find out what was going on. we found out that anthony was observed publicly masturbating behind me, from what i understand. >> they're taking him to lockup, and as they're stripping him out, they find that he's holding a joint, a marijuana cigarette. so now everything is compounded. now he's going to be in more trouble. >> what happened? >> dude, somehow i had this weed
8:08 pm
in my pocket. he found a joint in my pocket and he said i was masturbating on you. did you ever see me masturbating on you? >> i didn't see anything. >> he's telling me, did you see me do anything? did you see me do anything? honestly, i didn't. the officer witnessed it and he made that very clear. he said, i saw you masturbating. it doesn't matter if she sees you or not. but i saw you, you're going to lockup. >> it's not what she saw. >> okay, so basically, you're accusing me of rule 38, right? >> he kept denying up and down that he had done anything. but the officer saw what he saw. >> he locked me up for -- >> for having your penis out indecently exposed using it for something other than urinating. >> with rule 38 working its way back into our story lines, we returned to johnny perkins for more insight. >> see, everywhere you go, if you're down the hall you're going to have inmates watching y'all, really watching the women because anytime a woman come around, they want to watch and
8:09 pm
some will be trying to masturbate. >> at one point during the interview he was looking directly at me and he said, i was stalking you all, but there were already too many people around you. so i had a hard time, i decided not to take the chance. >> when you all first started coming here, i stalked y'all for a couple days. but i see everywhere you all went, you had a crowd, and that's not me trying to masturbate around a whole bunch of people. i'm into one-on-one. >> so there was me, and a female colleague who worked on the camera crew and there had been one day when she and i were working together, and we both kept seeing something out of the corner of our eye. i'd see a hand flashing, we'd look up and i would quickly see a guy jump around the corner and this happened over and over again, to the point where i thought i was going insane. and we realized after johnny's interview, it was him. he was stalking us, he was trying to get our attention. but we did always have security staff around us.
8:10 pm
so he didn't want to get caught again. >> my first question to you is, you don't think of it as a problem. >> right. >> if i told you it's a problem for me -- >> right. >> -- now what? >> the truth? if i caught you in the right position, it wouldn't matter. i would still try to masturbate in your presence. >> even if it upset me? >> even if it upset you. because i know a lady told me, don't you consider that to be mentally raping her, disrespecting her or, you know, and so on, et cetera. but i guess at that time, it's not about you. it's about me. and what i want to do. yeah, it's sick, i know it's sick. i'm not normal. i know i'm not normal. the average man is not normal. because we wouldn't be sitting
8:11 pm
in here if we were normal. coming up -- >> i killed her with a big knife. >> why? >> because i had no gun with me. >> in belgium, a bizarre interview about murder is interrupted by a jewelry delivery. >> an officer is bringing shawn a watch. and everything had to stop. and later -- >> i had been to elmer's, just walking around a shopping center, waiting for my next victim. >> one of our most chilling interviews explores the mind of a serial rapist. [ cheeping ] [ male announcer ] you hear that?
8:12 pm
8:13 pm
that's the sound of car insurance companies these days. here a cheap, there a cheap, everywhere a cheap... you get it. so, what if instead of just a cheap choice, you could make a smart choice? like, esurance for example. they were born online and built to save people money from the beginning. it's what they've always done. not just something they cheap about. that's insurance for the modern world. esurance. now backed by allstate. click or call.
8:14 pm
"lockup" has been documenting life in some of america's most hard-core maximum security prisons since the year 2000. in 2009 we went behind the walls of prisons overseas for the first time on "lockup: world tour."
8:15 pm
we discovered that while many of the challenges facing these prisons were the same, the differences were startling. that was especially true when we visited prisons in belgium. among other things, we learned that when an inmate escapes from a belgian prison, authorities will try to catch him, but not charge him with an additional crime. >> the law that says the effect of escaping is not a crime. but they can do another crime. for example, if they escape with their prison clothes, keeping the prison clothes is a crime. unless they send the clothes back. and in the past we have someone who escaped, jumping out of the window. after two, three days, we get the clothes back washed and cleaned. so he didn't make any crime. >> and even though belgium has one of the world's lowest crime rates, we met our share of murderers there as well. but shawn schaeffer's interview was one of the more unusual ones
8:16 pm
we conducted. we met him in the segregation unit of prison haselt, a maximum security facility. >> on 30 december, i killed my wife. >> okay. why and how? >> i killed her with a big knife. >> why? >> because i had no gun with me. >> okay. but why did you kill her? >> oh, why? i was very, very angry that she want to leave. for her, no problem, huh? but she wants to take my son. and she wants to move with the son to germany. >> schaeffer, a korean adopted by a dutch family, said he had outstanding charges in germany that could have led to a two-year sentence if he followed his wife into the country. after arguing, he stabbed her numerous times. >> three times in the neck.
8:17 pm
two times in the back. two, three, the total was ten stabs with a big knife. >> how big? >> kitchen knife. >> in the middle of the interview, something unusual happened. >> we're in the middle of this interview with shawn and i noticed a distraction coming over my right side, and it was actually an officer. he was holding a wristwatch that apparently shawn had placed an order for a couple of days prior. >> it was very important for shawn to check this watch out to make sure it's exactly what he wanted. he had ordered it, he had to make sure it was what he needed. and everything had to stop. >> that's the man for my watch. i must, if it's not good, i must give it back. i must see the watch. what do i have here? my wife is killed.
8:18 pm
i don't see my child. only i can buy maybe nice watches. >> the officer brought it to him almost like a merchant. >> let's see the watch, shawn, show brian. how much did that watch cost? >> not so much. 320 euros, $500. >> he looked at it, showed it to us, packed it away and we resumed the interview. it was a very unusual experience. >> you bought a watch in prison? >> yes, you can buy everything here. >> how do you have so much money in prison? >> after the interview, schaeffer invited us inside his cell where he showed us a few of the many watches he has purchased in prison. >> this is a guess, you know guess, yeah? america, you know, huh? but i have at home, much
8:19 pm
watches, i don't allow to bring to the prison, so i must always buy new watch that i want. >> not long after receiving his new watch, schaeffer's thoughts turn to corry, the woman he killed. >> i think of corry and that's very strange, never. never is a big word, but i only think of my dog, my cars, my house, my girlfriend, my son. and corry, i think i want to block it. i think. she's the reason why i'm here. >> schaeffer says the couple's 3-year-old son now lives with his sister. >> i think one thing for sure, he gets everything he wants. love, money.
8:20 pm
he has it very good now. >> but he doesn't have a mother and he doesn't have a father. >> he's like the same like me. when i was adopted. i don't know my parents, also. coming up -- >> this is the guy we're all told to fear and to defend ourselves against. >> after performing the rapes, physical rapes, i would literally scare these women to death. >> in a rare interview, a serial rapist opens up about how and why he committed his heinous crimes. it's that time of year a. time for citi price rewind. because your daughter really wants that pink castle thing. and you really don't want to pay more than you have to. only citi price rewind automatically searches for the lowest price. and if it finds one, you get refunded the difference. just use your citi card and register your purchase online. have a super sparkly day! ok. [ male announcer ] now all you need is a magic carriage.
8:21 pm
citi price rewind. start saving at
8:22 pm
8:23 pm
it's not uncommon for hard-core inmates to share the grisly details of their crimes with us. but rapists almost never do. an inmate at the penitentiary of new mexico proved to be an exception. >> this inmate was every woman's worst nightmare. this is the guy we're all told to fear and to defend ourselves
8:24 pm
against. >> i'm a serial rapist. i've been convicted in new mexico on three separate occasions for rape. >> he was convicted of three rapes, but he told us he had raped 22 women total. so i knew there were 19 other women out there who he had attacked and terrified. he wanted to remain anonymous, because he was getting out soon and he didn't want any of these victims to see him, because then he'd have to go back into prison. >> when we met him, he was coming up for parole on a 44-year sentence and it wasn't his first time in prison. >> my first rape was in 1975. and i picked up two to ten years on that and i served two. and i was released on parole, i lasted about a week and again was picked up and charged with a rape. i was returned to the santa fe state penitentiary from 1980 to
8:25 pm
1986 when i was released again on parole. i lasted on that parole, for about two weeks. and then i began again, serial raping. >> in this rare interview, the inmate went into great detail about the preparations, tactics and execution of his crimes. and while his comments are disturbing, they offer valuable insight into the mind of a dangerous criminal. >> before i would start committing my rapes, i would prepare my sites. this would take at least between a week or two weeks to get set up. i would find isolated places on all four sides of a city, places with no houses within a given distance. each of my locations i would have at least three escape routes. >> once his preparations were
8:26 pm
made, he would look for his victim. >> shopping centers is a major hunting ground for me. laundromats. college campuses, places generally where they have parking lots. >> i felt there was tremendous value in doing this interview. even though he wouldn't be identified, he gave us a complete breakdown of how he was able to perpetrate these crimes. for me, it was a true cautionary tale. >> and i would spend hours just walking around shopping centers, waiting to select a victim. >> women who were alone in a store, who were completely alone, so he could follow them and he knew they would go back to their car and they would have no one there to help them. >> once i picked out a victim, i would follow the victim until they returned to their cars and i would pull a weapon, in my case, a knife. and i would force them to get into their cars. >> what i took away from that information was to try to be
8:27 pm
constantly vigilant and aware, particularly in a parking lot. particularly when you're getting into your car. that's a common place for women to be attacked. >> how did you drive and keep them in the car? i'm not clear. were they just so struck with terror? >> for the most part, yes, ma'am. they were terrorized. on a few occasions i would force them down on the floorboard of the car to where i could keep an eye on them. i would try to keep the speed at such a fast clip, so that jumping out would not be an option. as soon as we arrived at these sites, i would immediately have them strip down naked. and i would force them to put their clothing and their handbags in the back seat. this is partly because you never know what a woman has in her purse. for all i know, they could have a pistol. a knife of their own. mace. whatever.
8:28 pm
so that would be the first thing i would do. plus it keeps the female from, if they're nude, they don't have a tendency to run away. so -- i guess another psychological factor. >> where was the knife? >> the knife was on me at all times. and after i disrobed and i was fixing to commence sexual intercourse, i would have the knife stuck in the ground near the mattress. it would be within reach. then i would strip down, and i would rape them. i would sometimes keep my victims anywhere from three to five hours at a time. >> seemingly, he was pretty bold about how he did his crimes. because of the fact he would always reveal himself. these women would know who he
8:29 pm
is. but the fact is, "a," he was a very big guy. i mean he had been in prison for a while when we met him. so i can only imagine when he was younger, how much more powerful he was. but also, the way he was able to not get caught for the most part was the threat he imposed on each and every one of his victims. >> intimidation was my big play. i would literally, after performing the rapes, the physical rapes, i would literally scare these women to death. coming up -- >> my motivation for becoming a serial rapist actually extends back to when i was 18 years old. >> our interview continues.
8:30 pm
8:31 pm
i need you. i feel so alone. but you're not alone. i knew you'd come. like i could stay away. you know i can't do this without you. you'll never have to. you're always there for me. shh! i'll get you a rental car. i could also use an umbrella. fall in love with progressive's claims service.
8:32 pm
i'll lori wilson. president obama is stepping up public pressure on republicans to got a fiscal cliff deal done. he'll appear on "meet the press" sunday as senate convenes to
8:33 pm
work on a possible deal with a possible vote monday. an airliner off the runway at airport in russia, there were eight crew members aboard and no passengers. there was light snow at the time of the crash. more news later. back to "lockup." due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. during our stay at the penitentiary of new mexico, our producer conducted an interview with a serial rapist, who would soon be completing his prison term and returning to society. the inmate agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity. what he had to say is disturbing, but provides a rare insight into the mind of a serial rapist. >> after performing the rapes, the physical rapes, i would literally scare these women to death. what i would do is go into a
8:34 pm
victim's purse, i would find address books, i would take their driver's license out of their purse. and i would say, okay, now i know where you live. i know where you work. i know where your kids go to school. if you ever report this to the police, i will come back. i will kill you, i'll kill your family. and i would make my threats as real as possible. and nine times out of ten, they would try to reassure me that that would never happen. >> when he decided he was done, he would drive his victim back to the parking lot where he had kidnapped her, return to his car and drive home, often with what he described as a trophy. >> did you take jewelry? >> rings. earrings, watches.
8:35 pm
necklaces. an item that would let me recall a particular victim. >> during the course of the interview, when he was telling me about these situations, i couldn't help but flash on these women. i was wondering how they were, how their lives had gone. had they been able to go on? it just kept haunting me. so i kept asking him -- why? >> my motivation for becoming a serial rapist, actually extends back to when i was 18 years old. i knowingly and willingly declared war on society. i decided that this would be the ultimate crime against society, that would earn me the most despicable reputation, if you will.
8:36 pm
i wanted to ruin my name simply because i hate my father. >> you have all of this anger and hatred for your father, and yet, you victimize women. >> my motive wasn't necessarily victimizing the women, it was performing the crime that is viewed by society as being detestable. does that clarify it for you? i'm trying not to say, i'm trying not to sound totally insane, but this is the motivation. >> but you take your rage out on women. that's all, i just found that interesting, you hate your father so much. you seem to love your mother. >> i do. i do. >> when we met him, this inmate had completed the first six months of an intensive 18-month sex offender rehabilitation program. >> it's just time for a change. you know, i've got, when i walk out this time, i'll be 60 years old. and i'm not going to have that
8:37 pm
much longer left, anyway, and i want to enjoy it the best i can. >> he claims this rehabilitation program has helped him empathize with his victims, and he says he does feel remorse. >> i know it sounds pretty lame, but i would want them to know that i am sorry for what i did. >> he apologized to his victims, but the problem with that is, he's not making himself recognizable to his victims. you know, he's not truly standing up and taking responsibility to the very people he hurt. >> i didn't hurt them physically. mentally is another question, you know. they were, they were pretty thoroughly frightened. >> you didn't hurt them physically? >> well, outside of the rape. i'm talking about i didn't beat on them, i didn't slice them up, i didn't cut them, i didn't harm them physically other than the sexual intercourse. >> he did hurt these women when
8:38 pm
he raped them, emotionally, physically, psychologically, he completely altered their lives. and to me, he was minimizing his behavior. >> approximately one year after our interview, the inmate completed his sex offender rehabilitation program and came up for parole. he was denied and had to remain in prison. but not for long. his 44-year sentence was reduced by approximately half due to good behavior, meaning he only had another year to serve before being released. >> i would be interested to know how he's doing. and if he's gotten himself into any more trouble. but the problem with that is, he had 19 victims for which he was never caught. so there's no real way of knowing if he's acting out again unless he gets caught. coming up, a former prostitute's drug addiction leads to frightening consequences.
8:39 pm
>> so you don't know how many men you infected with hiv? >> probably enough. nah, i'm good. ♪ [ male announcer ] every time you say no to a cigarette, you celebrate a little win. nicoderm cq, the patch with time release smart control technology that acts fast and helps control cravings all day long. ♪ quit one day at a time with nicoderm cq.
8:40 pm
8:41 pm
8:42 pm
in most maximum-security prisons, people convicted of sex-related crimes are the outcasts of the inmate population. they're often housed in protective custody to keep others from beating or killing them. >> these type of offenders rarely discuss the details of their crime. and when they do, it can be tough to take. but there's value to their stories. they're cautionary tales. >> we met tammy dietz at the tennessee prison for women. but initially, it wasn't her crime that caught our attention. it was her disability.
8:43 pm
>> what is it like being deaf in prison? >> it's not fun. it's not. you know, you got a lot of bullies here. a lot of them make fun of me, you know, all the time. >> dietz has been deaf since birth. >> i know sign language, i read lips, and i've just been reading lips. >> but as a young woman, it wasn't her hearing that caused her life to unravel, it was a crack addiction. >> fighting, i couldn't find crack, if i couldn't find crack, i'd do heroin, you know. >> her addiction led to a life of prostitution and several arrests. she's currently serving three years not just for prostitution, but aggravated prostitution. >> tell me what aggravated prostitution means. >> what it means is that knowing that you have hiv and you're out there on the corner, walking, trying to get dates.
8:44 pm
>> dietz was first diagnosed with hiv in 1999. >> so from 1999 to when you were incarcerated, how many -- how many customers, how many tricks do you think you had? >> how many? i can't count them. i mean i don't know if i infected anybody. but i can only imagine that i'm pretty sure that i have. but i just don't want to think that i did, you know. it's not good. >> did you use condoms? >> well, no. no. not always. but i do try to carry them on me. when i do a lot of them have them, don't even want to wear them. they say no, you know. when i'm desperate for the next hit and that, i've got $30, $40 offered and i've got a condom and they tell me no, i'm not going to pass up the $30, $40. >> i was struck by tammy's
8:45 pm
willingness to talk honestly about her past. when she described the crimes, she almost came across to us as warning people. >> so you don't know how many men you infected, possibly infected with hiv? >> probably enough. i don't know, i can't tell you how many, because i don't know. but all i can tell you i've been with enough men that -- i hate to think that i did it, you know. >> so let's think about that, tammy. here's a chance, where were you a prostitute? why don't you talk about the area you worked as a prostitute, and from what years. so if somebody is watching this and they recognize you, maybe they could get themselves tested, right? >> well, but that doesn't mean that they probably got it from me because there's probably, i would not be the only one that they've been with. so they can't determine.
8:46 pm
there's no fact that my blood was in your blood, you got it from me, i got it from you. or whatever, whatnot. because you know what, i could have tried to find out who i got it from. it wouldn't work that way. and vice versa. i've been with so many men, he's been with so many women. he don't know if he got it from me or he got it from the next one. >> dietz later told us that most of her prostitution activity after contracting hiv occurred between 1998 and 2001 in knoxville, tennessee. >> how is your health? you have hiv. >> i'm great. i'm, i don't, i don't even feel sick. i mean, physically, i don't. but emotionally, i do. at times. mentally, mentally, you know, when i think about it, you know. and it's not good. >> if dietz didn't consider the well-being of her clients, she did give some thought to her
8:47 pm
three children. she gave them up for adoption knowing her drug addiction made parenting impossible. >> why are you crying? >> because i miss my kids. i envy those that got to raise them. i wish i had a vision of what drugs did to people. i think i wouldn't be in here today. >> tell me what's going to be different when you go out next year. when you are released from prison next year, what will be different? >> what will be different? well, i have one choice, to live, be out there with my children again, my family. or come back in.
8:48 pm
or be dead in the ghetto. that's all i can say. and i have to do it. i have to do it. i can't come back. i'm 39, i'm getting too old for this, too old. i can't do this no more. i can't do it. coming up -- >> get the cable fixed. >> an old con teaches a new arrival a thing or two about the convict code. >> what did i tell you? way ahead of time, leave that alone, let god take care of that. it ain't your business to take care of that, man. [ woman ] ring. ring.
8:49 pm
progresso. in what world do potatoes, bacon and cheese add up to 100 calories? your world. ♪ [ whispers ] real bacon... creamy cheese... 100 calories... [ chef ] ma'am [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.
8:50 pm
time for citi price rewind. because your daughter really wants that pink castle thing. and you really don't want to pay more than you have to. only citi price rewind automatically searches for the lowest price. and if it finds one, you get refunded the difference. just use your citi card and register your purchase online. have a super sparkly day! ok. [ male announcer ] now all you need is a magic carriage. citi price rewind. start saving at
8:51 pm
we visited indiana state prison just shy of its 150th anniversary. it was established in 1860, one year before the civil war and has housed the state's most infamous criminals. john dillinger did time here in 1929. and four years later,
8:52 pm
masterminded the escape of 11 members of his gang. it's been through changes over the years, but it's still a prison with old school bars and old school convicts who don't want to be mistaken for inmates. >> convicts treat you the way you treat them. treat them with respect, they treat you with respect. inmates are the guys who talk bad about you, yell at you, swear at you. no matter how you treat them. treat them with respect and you don't get anything like that in return. isp is slowly going from convict to inmate, because we're getting a lot of younger kids in here who are not used to prison life. >> a convict's the one who minds his own business. he don't get off in other people's business. what he sees he keeps to himself. it's none of his business. inmates are one that would tell in a minute. they're rats. i'm a straight convict. i'm not an inmate. >> robert spears was your typical convict.
8:53 pm
he had done a lot of time. he had lived very distinctly by the convict code and he was very accepting of his situation. he didn't complain. he didn't blame anybody. he was a tough guy. >> when i came to prison, i was a kid. i had to do what i had to do to survive and i'm not proud of the things sometimes that i had to do. some people has to be hurt, i've been hurt. you know what i mean? but that's just the way of life here. >> spears has tangled with the law for most of his life and is serving 28 years for dealing a controlled substance. >> i got plenty of regrets. for one, is that the time that i've lost, i regret leaving my kids, you know what i mean? i had to make my son believe that i was in the army because i don't want him growing up thinking my dad was in prison. if i could go back and change time, i'd live a whole different life. but this is what i done. and, i mean, you can regret it every day, but the only thing you can do is change it, you know what i mean?
8:54 pm
this is no life no more. see what i'm talking about? just like being here right now, you just don't hurt yourself. you hurt actually the people that cares about you out there. a reputation follows you forever. you know what i mean? no matter how much of my life i know i can be a better person, i still have that reputation that i'm a cold-blooded person. >> though spears appeared ready to be a man who is more than a convict, we didn't expect to see the drama that would unfold between him and a young inmate who had arrived four months earlier. at first glance, josh harrison serving 20 years on seven counts of armed robbery was the type of young, impulsive inmate old convicts like spears despise. >> well, i was here for approximately two weeks and they came and put me on a "d," which is administrative segregation
8:55 pm
because my past violent behavior. battery, my robbery cases, beating up staff. >> get the cable fixed. >> ain't no reason for me to get a [ bleep ] writeup. she's going to write it up and i'll rip it out. point blank, it's simple. i'm rip this whole [ bleep ] out. >> i call him youngster. that's his nickname. if you want me to call him josh, i'll go by josh but his name to me is youngster. i met his father years ago, his real dad. you know what i mean? years ago in prison. we got along pretty well. we wasn't real tight, but i respected each other. i heard a lot about little josh, what he was doing and how he was getting in trouble and stuff. >> tell me about your relationship. how long have you known him? what's it been like? >> we got to talking and he's really just a lonely kid, you know what i mean? he wants to be -- play tough, but actually, he just wants to know someone cares about him. and he got to calling me dad, you know what i mean? i'm old enough -- i'm sorry about that, i'll old enough to be his dad. so, i'm hoping i can pull him up
8:56 pm
and maybe make him see that staying in trouble, you're going to do every bit of this, you know, the system will take the time in a minute. if you're ignorant, they got something for you. >> for harrison, staying out of trouble and earning every minute of good time is the difference between getting out in 10 years or 20. and for him, that's especially important. >> my fiance was 4 1/2 months pregnant with twins, a boy and a girl, when i caught this case. i haven't seen them for the past four, five months, and i've never actually been able to hold them or nothing. >> josh reminds me a lot of me when i was his age and i know what he's going through. he thinks he's got to prove something to people. he was hanging out with me out here and he was still running his mouth a little bit. so, i told him, look, man, you can't do that in here because if you do, one of two things going to happen. you're going to end up hurting
8:57 pm
someone or you're going to end up getting hurt. >> he's been giving me good advice since i've known him. every time he sees me, he says, stay out of trouble, stay out of trouble. >> duck the trouble. don't look for it. stay away from it. >> but about halfway through our stay at indiana, josh harrison stepped right into the middle of trouble. during a shakedown of his dormitory, officers found a nine-inch knife hidden among his possessions. harrison said he was considering using it on another inmate, one who was convicted of killing his cousin. >> he's going to try to come with his little dumb story, you can believe that. oh, they was going to do something and he knows i'm not going to let no one do nothing to him, so that would be weak to me. in his heart he's got to prove that he's tough.
8:58 pm
he's probably like me. he feels a lot of pain, but he's covering it up by trying to show violence, that's all that is. >> when robert found out that josh had been caught with a knife, he wanted to talk to him before josh went into lockup. so, you know, we were filming, we were following robert up there and i'm expecting, you know, the nice father/son kind of chat. and robert just lit into him. >> you think it's funny, don't you? you're a straight idiot. what you go get the knife for, for real? why did you get it? >> to do it on my cousin. >> what did i tell you, way ahead of time? leave that alone. let god take care of that. it ain't your business to take care of that, or you want someone raising your two little kids calling someone else dad? >> no. >> that was stupid, man. if i could get ahold of you, boy, i'd whoop you just for that reason. and i'd try to knock your teeth out just because i care about you, boy, to wake you up, not to hurt you but just to show you that you're ignorant at times. you got a head, man, so you can't really tell me you're stupid because you're not, man. you know what i mean? if you was, i'd have cut you loose a long time ago. you know how i do it. >> this is prison life. josh wasn't going to get it any other way and this was how
8:59 pm
robert knew how to parent. >> i don't know about you, boy. you hurt my feelings, i can tell you that. you let me down. of all people, i thought you were going to come through. i told you time and time again, just listen to me, man, i'll keep you out of trouble and i'll get you out of here, but there's still a part of you trying to be that tough guy. >> it was hard core tough love because at the very end of this diatribe, robert basically says, i love you, man. let me know if you need anything. >> a lot of love, dude. wherever you go, i'll send word that a way. stay out of trouble. >> love you, bob. >> all right, see you later, man. >> yep. >> straight idiot, man. if i could hit him in his mouth right now, i would. >> while harrison was waiting for his disciplinary hearing on possessing a weapon, he got an additional writeup for slapping another inmate. as a result of the two infractions, harrison lost 180 days of good time and was given a year and a half in segregation. thatns


info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on