tv The Last Word MSNBC June 26, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
this in the news are energizing, but i'm not sure how many i can take in a row. so here is hope for a real boring day tomorrow. next is lawrence o'donnell with "the last word". and in the second degree murder trial of george zimmerman, the second witness saying the voice heard screaming for help at the scene was trayvon martin's. one of the voices was his girlfriend who he was talking to right before he was killed. and in washington today, history was once again written by the supreme court of the united states. >> an historic morning at the supreme court. >> the supreme court has just struck down the federal defense of marriage act. california's ban, on recognizing same-sex marriage is dead. >> now, once again legal in the state of california. >> i feel jubilation, i feel
fabulous. >> celebrations from the steps of the supreme court. has there been a bigger day for gay rights? >> a confrontation between gays and police at a bar called the stonewall inn. >> there is a law that says gay people can't be married. >> there is a law. >> every right to live a perverted life-style. >> president clinton has signed the bill that bans the government from recognizing same-sex marriages. >> victory for two who challenged the law that made sexual contact illegal between members of the same sex. >> our journey is not completed until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like everybody else under the law. >> day three of the george zimmerman murder trial. >> there is only one living eyewitness, george zimmerman himself. >> testimony from a key witness. >> graphic evidence from the night of trayvon martin's death. >> the young woman trayvon martin was speaking with on the phone moments before he was
killed. >> the only reason for the prosecution is to pick apart the statement. >> state versus george zimmerma zimmerman. >> more dramatic testimony today in the murder trial of george zimmerman. george zimmerman has pled not guilty in the second degree murder of trayvon martin claiming self defense. today, the jury heard from 19-year-old rachel jeantel, who was the last person to speak to trayvon martin before his confrontation with george zimmerman. she described her final cell phone call with trayvon martin when he told her a man was following him. >> he said -- i asked him where are you at? and he told me he at the back of his fiancee's house, right in the area where -- by his fiancee's house. he said no, he lost them.
and then he said why are you following me? and i heard him, what are you doing around here? i heard trayvon martin say what is going on? i heard trayvon's head set. >> you heard a bump? >> yeah. >> and what did you assume it was? >> the head set. >> what happened then? >> and then i started hearing grass sounds, wet grass sounds. >> what do you mean you heard grass sounds? >> like wet grass, wet grass. >> okay. then what happened? >> and then i kept calling, trayvon, and get off, get off. >> okay, let me stop you, you heard a grass sound and you said something, what did you say? >> i said trayvon, what is going on? >> and what did you hear?
>> i kept hearing trayvon saying get off, get off. >> then what did you hear? >> then the phone shut off. >> she also told the court who she believes is crying for help on that 911 tape. >> since that time, have you heard the recording, telephone recording where there is cries for help. and then a shot. have you heard that on tv and stuff? >> yes. >> okay. the cries for help, are you able to say whose voice that is, or voices that is? >> trayvon's, it sounded like trayvon's. >> joining me now, faith jenkins, a former prosecutor, a reporter who was in the court
today. and msnbc's jonathan capehart. faith, what is the significance of rachel's testimony today? >> this is truly the state's biggest witness in this case. george zimmerman is already locked into his statement about what happened when he and trayvon meet for the very first time, the initial encounter between them. and he says that trayvon approached him, saying do you have a problem with me and then sucker punches him in the face. rachel says something completely different, she says she was on the phone with him during the time he was running, he said at some point, why are you following me, and she hears rolling in the grass. he says something like, get off me, get off me. the jury has a crucial decision to make here, the question is who are they going to believe? george zimmerman or rachel jeantel. >> the testimony she gave about hearing the wet grass, a lot of
people on tv have been making fun of that since they heard it. but is what she is saying, trayvon martin had a cell phone piece, a bluetooth piece in his ear, and then at that point he was actually thrown to the ground in struggle with george zimmerman, and the ear piece itself was rubbing along the grass? is that what that testimony is supposed to mean? >> i think that is what she means. she said she was talking to trayvon martin and that in the middle of the conversation, she heard the aggressive, dominant voice, a man who was breathing hard asked trayvon, what are you doing around here? and the next thing she heard was wet grass on the ground. so it is pretty clear she is trying to indicate that the wet grass and ear bud fell out of his ear and that the phone was on the ground. and within seconds. >> let's listen to how george zimmerman's lawyer addressed the
911 tape on cross examination. >> so the question is, well, who is screaming for help? it is not trayvon is it? and your answer, it could be trayvon, and the question, you know his voice so well. was that trayvon screaming for help or wasn't it? your answer, it could be. like i said, i don't know. but it could be. the dude sound kind of like trayvon, trayvon do got that soft voice and that baby voice sometimes. so it could be, i don't know. you know it is not. and that is the end of the quote. do you acknowledge that you made those statements, those answers to those questions under oath in depositions? >> yes. >> jonathan capehart, what do you make of those discrepancies
between the exact words she used sometime ago in a deposition and then the words she uses today in court? >> i think the short answer might be either memory loss or recovered memory. but the key point of what don west for the defense is trying to do is chip away at her credibility. we already know that rachel jeantel lied about why she didn't go to the memorial service for trayvon martin. also in the cross examination, it came out that she lied about her age. and now, we have this -- the clip you just played of her, what the defense is trying to prove is that she also then lied about whose voice she said she heard. in that 911 -- in that 911 call. so this is all part of a system here of chipping away at her credibility because as faith said, this is the prosecution's biggest witness. she was on the phone with
trayvon martin up until the moment he died. there is no one other bigger than her with the exception of george zimmerman. >> faith, in your experience as a prosecutor, the consistencies that jonathan just listed for us, how do those add up in testimony like this? >> well, the prosecutors in their summations are going to make a clear argument here that even george zimmerman's statements comport with what rachel jeantel said, we know she was on the phone, with george zimmerman following him. compare it to the time stamp when george zimmerman was on the phone with the police. the operator asked, are you following him? he says yes, the operator says we don't need you to do that. so her statement about that is actually corroborated by george zimmerman when he says yes, i'm following him. so the defense can't completely throw out rachel's testimony when in fact some of it is actually accurate on its face
and not disputed. >> let's listen to her explanation of why she didn't go to trayvon martin's funeral. >> why didn't you go to the funeral or to the wake? >> i'm sorry, what? >> i didn't want to see the body. >> you didn't want to see the body? >> no. >> and why did you lie about not going to the funeral or to the wake? >> i felt guilty. >> felt guilty about what? >> about -- because i was the last person -- that i was the last person who had talked with him on the phone. >> you were in the courtroom today, and you have a view of
the jury. so you have that burden on this show of trying to in some sense guess for us how that testimony was received by those six women on the jury today. >> so throughout rachel's testimony, the jury was leaning in just to hear her, they were leaning in and taking a lot of notes. because basically, if they believe this woman and believe what this young girl says, she says this is a young man who was followed and basically pursued and was basically killed while trying to make it home. so the jury seems like they were visibly emotional and upset, in my opinion. because they were leaning in and really leaning hard to listen to every word and really write down what she was saying. >> and jonathan, did you observe, as i think i did, a certain cultural disconnect between rachel on the witness stand and the defense attorney
cross examining her and picking at every word as if she herself was a lawyer who should be able to speak in perfectly consistent terms? >> yeah, i picked up on that, as well. i said that earlier today on our air, that i felt like there was a cultural disconnect between don west and rachel jeantel. when i mentioned i was talking about an adult versus a teenager. we have to understand she is 18 or 19 years old. that clearly she is a teenager who is not exactly used to being in these circumstances. and again, i think don west's manner and the way he was going about his cross examination of her was about basically like a sculptor. trying to chisel away at her credibility. but there is one thing that i also found there interesting
about this. don west going up against rachel jeantel. don west was the guy who did the knock-knock joke as part of his opening statement. he is already coming in, to my mind, already with his credibility, and whether he is up to the task of doing his job. now he is very methodical, and plodding what he is doing, during the prosecution's questioning of ms. jeantel. he was hopping up, objecting, asking all sorts of questions. you know, he is doing his job as a defense attorney. but you know, i have to say if i were on the jury i would be a little put off by his demeanor. >> jonathan capehart, thank you for joining us. we'll continue with faith jenkins. a riveting 911 call from another witness in the case of florida
versus zimmerman today. and later, the supreme court's decision today in favor of marriage equality. because of chief justice john roberts, she joins us now where she will be able to marry her partner, that is coming up. falcon! (girl) we should do that. (guy) i caught a falcon. (guy) you could eat a bug. let's do that. (guy) you know you're eating a bug. (girl) because of the legs. (guy vo) we got a subaru to take us new places. (girl) yeah, it's a hot spring. (guy) we should do that. (guy vo) it did. (man) how's that feel? (guy) fine. (girl) we shouldn't have done that. (guy) no. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. "that starts with one of the world's most advancedy," distribution systems," "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local
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>> well, in my opinion, i truly believe especially the second yell for help that was like a yelp, i really felt it was the boy's voice. >> with me again, faith jenkins, former criminal prosecutor, and national reporter for usa today. faith jenkins, that was very powerful testimony today from jane, she made that 911 call to police looking out her window, describing what she had seen. what is the significance of her testimony? is the primary value of it to the prosecution her belief that that was trayvon martin's voice screaming? >> yes, and the primary value is really the 911 call that is actually in evidence now. because on that call, she is actually witnessing events and describing them to the operator what she is seeing. she is saying i heard someone yelling for help. i should have helped him. i wish i could have.
i don't have a gun. i can't believe he shot him. why would he kill someone? why would he shoot him? and the inference there is she is referring to trayvon, the person who is shot and killed, lying on the ground, and george zimmerman, the person who she describes as walking around. >> let's listen to the 911 call that went into evidence today. >> so is wthe person you see laying down on the street or on the ground? >> on the ground. oh, my god, he is shot, he said he shot the person. why would somebody -- why -- >> listen, we don't know if they have been killed. okay -- >> he just said he shot him, the person is dead laying on the ground. oh, my god, why would somebody kill somebody like that.
>> this is a witness, who as far as we know, we haven't seen this jury. you have. is someone who -- is very similar to the jury, the jury is a panel of five white women. and another woman. did she have a clear connection to this jury? >> i can't say she had a clear connection to the jury. i can say that the jury was definitely paying attention to her. they were definitely again looking intently when the 911 call was played they were listening. but they were also listening to her reaction, because she looked very upset. in that moment when the 911 call was played, everybody in the courtroom kind of quieted down, she was describing being shaken, terrified. and on the stand, the jury really looked at her and could feel in that moment what she felt, i think, just by looking at her, seeing her reaction to the 911 call being played again. >> all right, let's listen to
the cross examination on her testimony. >> i'm talking about your assumption, though, as you explained later what you saw. as even as perhaps you were explaining to the 911 operator oh, my god, someone is dead. why would somebody do that? why wouldn't somebody help? i don't have a gun. all of that was based upon your assumption that it was the person on the ground who had died that was the one yelling for help? >> i thought from the voice that was the one yelling for the help. was the boy that was dead. >> yes. but you had never heard trayvon martin's voice before in your life? >> i heard it when i opened the window -- i heard it when i opened the window. and then i was hearing the voices. i heard two voices. >> had you ever heard george zimmerman's voice in your life?
>> no. >> so when you say you heard trayvon martin's voice before, you're saying that it was your opinion that you were listening to his voice as the softer of the two in the argument? >> yes. >> faith, did the defense score any points there. >> well, they're trying to show, how could you know for sure? how could you be so sure? you were under the stress and emotion of this event. and you're really not sure. she is such a critical ear witness, they have to go bato h in that manner, but she is convinced the person who was yelling for help was killed. that is the person -- >> and this jury looks at this woman and has to say to themselves why would she be saying anything other than what she truly believes based on what she heard? >> that is true. the jury would really have to
look at her and think okay, this lady is making up this story. and that all the things she said, all the emotion in the 911 call that she was just wrong. and that is something -- the conclusions that they may come to, but i think i can tell you the jury was really moved by her, everybody was really moved by the fact that she was experiencing this. we all write about it, hear about it, and think about it. but this woman describes the experience, shaking, just how horrible it was. and i think the jury, they understood that. they understood what she had gone through. >> yeah, and they could see her going through it in some sense again when the call was being played. i want to go back to a piece of rachel's testimony where she explained on cross examination why she thought she might not have to be involved in this case at all, and it was based on what she has learned about the investigations from tv shows. let's listen to that.
>> well you thought, then, that somebody at some point would figure that out with the cell phones and then contact you? >> yes. that is not what officers do -- >> i didn't hear you? >> do you watch first 48? they watch the first number that they talked to. >> i'm sorry, the first 48 -- >> a show, "first 48." when the victim died, they called the number that the victim called before. and they didn't call my number. so they had already got the person, so case closed, i thought. >> faith, because they didn't call her number, and the one she knew would be on trayvon martin's phone, she thought hey, i'm not involved in this. >> rachel comes across as very authentic and unfiltered, that i
actually think will help this case. a lot of people criticize her demeanor, she has a little bit of an edge, one thing you learn about your witnesses, you take them as you find them. they all come from different backgrounds, ethnic groups, i think she came across as very authentic. >> and intensely shocked, you can tell this is not anything like her element. and she didn't want to be there. i don't think there was any adult in the room who couldn't comprehend that. faith jenkins and yanice alcinder, thank you very much. and coming up, oscar winning screenwriter of "milk," will join me. as well as nephew. and two women who waited 47 years for this victory will be here. that intrigues me.
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republicans, but it was too late, the bill was recorded three minutes after the end of the session, governor rick perry announced today he will call the legislature back into session so they will have another chance to pass this bill. after wendy davis's twitter followers jumped from 1200 to 83,000 in 24 hours. up next, the historic day at the supreme court, lance black, harvey milk's cousin, who can now marry in california. ok, i am coming. [ susan ] i hate that the reason we're always stopping is because i have to go to the bathroom.
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vo: i've always thought the best part about this country is that we get to create our future. you get to take ownership of the choices you make. the person you become. i've been around long enough to recognize the people who are out there owning it. the ones getting involved and staying engaged. they're not sitting by as their life unfolds.
and they're not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is "how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives. >> in the spotlight tonight if you have ever doubted whether one people can make a difference, meet 84-year-old edie windsor, or as she will be known in history, the woman who brought down the defense of marriage act. >> i lived with, in love and joy, and sickness and health, until death did us part. when thea died from a heart condition, two years after we were finally married i was
heartbroken. on a deeply personal level, i felt the stress and anguish from the government, that my spouse was not legal, but considered to be a stranger to me. on a practical level, due to doma, i was taxed $336,000 in federal estate tax that i would not have to have paid if i were married to a man named theo, so overwhelmed with a sense of injustice, i decided to sue the government to get my money back. >> today, members of the court decided edie should get her money back with interest and declared that the defense of marriage act that defines marriage as an act between one woman and one man, unconstitutional. chris perry, the law that barred
her from marrying her partner, the court ruled in her favor. they expect california to issue licenses to all couples again within a month. chris perry and her future wife were celebrating outside the supreme court this morning when she received a memorable call of congratulations. >> the president is on the line, from air force one. >> go ahead. >> hello, mr. president. this is chris perry. we're here and thank you so much for your support. >> we're proud of you guys, and we're so glad that in california -- and a number of states are growing because of your leadership. you know, through your courage, you have helped a lot of people
everywhere. >> joining me now, chad griffin, dustin lance black, the academy-winning writer of "milk ". and the president of the harvey milk foundation. so chad, you're out there in front of the supreme court today and all the celebration and noise. and you're in the middle of a group interview with thomas roberts here at msnbc, and your phone rings. you did -- did it say president of the united states on the caller id? >> it actually said blocked, lauren. so unfortunately, i couldn't get the number to call air force one back. the next time i would like to talk to the president. but it is not every day that you get a call from the president of the united states on board air force one. but if there is any occasion that warranted it it was the occasion of this celebration today. the fact that the supreme court struck down proposition 8. and we are here today celebrating what will very soon
be the resumption of marriages here in this great state. >> dustin, you were in the courtroom for some of the arguments in these cases. we talked about it then. did it feel to you back then, at the argument stage, that this is where we would be today? >> yeah, i always had faith that we were going to be here today. i am glad it is this soon. and i'm glad this court did it today. i'll tell you what. i stood on this intersection almost five years ago and marched with some of these very same people. because we were hurt because our families were injured. and we marched and we made our voices heard, and our discontent heard. and we did something very important, lawrence, we started to tell our personal stories that started to change hearts and minds. and you know what i think? i think those justices heard those stories and knew the time was now. >> stewart milk, we showed in
the opening of our show old footage of your uncle harvey milk. and everyone, of course, wishes that he could have been standing in the supreme court steps today. but it has been a long martha started even before his activism to get to the supreme court steps today. >> it has been a long march. and so many people have continued carrying my uncle's banner. you know, san francisco is just alive tonight, with celebration and the message that we, as a community, are so much better, including everyone. this has been a turning point for not only the rights of lgtb people, but it is a green light that justice can move forward. >> and here, i just want to read part of justice kennedy's opinion, the majority opinion on the defense of marriage act,
doma, doma instructs all people, including their own children that their marriage is less worthy than the marriages of others. the federal statute is invalid for no legitimate purpose, overcomes the effect to disparage and injure those who by the state sought to injure in personhood and dignity. chad, that seems like a very broad percentage that could be applied to the states at this time. >> there is no question, lawrence, you read part of justice kennedy's brilliance. the prose that he read from the bench today and what is in that document, every american should read. because it is very clear. i believe it also gives us a road map to go forward. and while we're all celebrating tonight here in california and edie, and her brilliant
attorney, and new york city and everywhere in between we also have to acknowledge that people all across this country didn't feel the reach of justice today. that young person in altoona, pennsylvania, that harvey milk talked about in the '70s, and that young person in hope, arkansas, where i was born, didn't feel the reach of justice today. so i know that we are committed, lance is committed. the human rights campaign, all of our colleagues across the nation are committed to fighting like we never fought before to ensure that equality reaches every person. and we committed that within five years we'll bring marriage equality to every single state. all 50 states in this country. >> lance, the big population centers, california, new york, these states have marriage equality. but speak to what chad just mentioned. and that is the reach into the more distant areas. you didn't grow up in one of those big population centers in
new york, california, where those rights are now easily obtained. tell us what it is like to be growing up gay in utah and places like that, where -- where the impact has not been felt yet. >> i grew up in a mormon home, in a military home out in san antonio, texas, and so did my big brother. my big brother is the reason five years ago i started to make my efforts federal. my big brother while i was making milk, came out to me. but my big brother lived in virginia. so as i was fighting in california i was so proud of the work we were doing. but all of a sudden i had a wake-up call that said if we don't take this to the federal government, my own big brother will never enjoy equality the way i hope to. my own big gay brother, and sadly, my big brother didn't make it to today. my big brother passed away, he lost his fight with cancer and
he will never see this day of freedom. so you know what? even if he had made it here, he lived in a state that doesn't have it today. and what we have to do is do it in the big cities but we have to do it in the more conservative areas. in the south. we have to reach out and tell our stories. we have to be brave in these areas because in some of these areas people can still lose their jobs for being lgbt. it is the only way we can break down the myths and lies and stereotypes we have been told for generations about gays and lesbians, in the government and sometimes within our own family. when these go away, we'll have equality. >> stuart, your uncle was one who even knew on victory night that there was more work to do tomorrow. >> absolutely. and just as you heard, we have 37 states that do not recognize marriage equality.
but we have whole countries, and we actually have whole continents that don't. and one of the things i absolutely believe my uncle would be saying is we have to have this message of hope that tonight we hope is being celebrated in orlando. it is being celebrated by my friends in chile, and by national couples who were forced out of our country in hungary. and with that comes the commitment, as you heard chad and dustin say. we have to have the commitment to take this to the next level. this is really the civil rights defining moment of our time. but we have a lot of work to do. and the thing that i'm most proud of and i think my uncle would be so thrilled with, is all the people that have taken my uncle's mantle, of living a life that is challenging.
as lance just said, it is challenging in some conservative places to come out and be who you are. but that is what is really changing the dynamic, not just to the united states but across the world. >> chad griffin, dustin lance black and stuart milk, thank you all for joining us. and chad, don't ever turn off that cell phone. >> thank you, all. very soon, coming up, she will soon be able to marry her partner in california. and later, they tell us what this day means to them. for his small business. can i get the smith contract, please? thank you. that's three new paper shredders. [ boris ] put 'em on my spark card. [ garth ] boris' small business earns 2% cash back on every purchase every day. great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. read back the chicken's testimony, please. "buk, buk, bukka!" [ male announcer ] get the spark business card
designed for women's health concerns as we age. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. one a day 50+. try align. it's the number one ge recommended probiotic that helps maintain digestive balance. ♪ stay in the groove with align. ♪ need help keeping your digestive balance in sync? try align. it's a probiotic that fortifies your digestive system with healthy bacteria 24/7. because your insides set the tone. stay in the groove with align. . >> michele bachmann responded to the supreme court today by saying that marriage was created by the hand of god, no man, not even the hand of the supreme court can undo what the holy god
has done. nancy pelosi was asked about michele bachmann. >> she essentially said, if you got the word -- >> john robert's cousin who can now marry in california will join me next. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us. happy birthday! it's a painting easel! the tide's coming in!
defense of marriage act, but he moved to the winning side in the proposition 8 case and wrote the court's opinion dismissing the appeal of the law banning the same-sex marriage in california. and so tonight, same-sex marriage is legal again in california. and chief justice robert's cousin, jean pedraski, announced she will marry her partner. joining me now, jean and grace, thank you very much for joining me on this historic night. jean, you said things over time, asked about how your cousin might rule on this. in which you expressed confidence that he would handle this in a judicious way. how do you think he did today? >> i was actually very surprised this morning. i am totally shocked that he split right down the middle, one side for us, one side against us. i was confident before the
hearings, and i think the hearings shifted my perspective a little bit. i was definitely a little nervous after the hearings. so of course i was thrilled about prop 8. and of course, i'm disappointed that he didn't rule on our side on doma. >> but he was not in a position to block doma, grace, and here you are able to be married in california thanks to justice robert's vote and others. and then thanks to the other justices that marriage can be recognized elsewhere in the country and by the federal government. >> i really like the way you put that. yes. and jean, the fact that your cousin actually did rule specifically on your side in the case that affects you in
california, most directly, is there a special feeling for you in that part of it? >> oh, definitely, definitely. as much as i wanted doma to be overturned, it wouldn't have affected us at all if prop 8 wasn't thrown out. there would be no point in us getting married. so prop 8 is actually more important to me at this moment. so we are staying in california and we would like to get married in california. and now we can. >> and so when is the big day? is it on the schedule yet? >> honestly -- >> or were you waiting for this decision first? >> it was interesting. to answer your question, it will be spring 2014. >> and will the chief justice of the united states be getting an invitation? >> oh, god, i don't know if i could answer that question. i want to say of course, i'm inviting family members. we have a very large family between the two of us. so our guest list has not been
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podras . >> nothing will change the 45-year bond that we have. >> no. >> we have had -- we have the most remarkable bond. and we think in part it is because as she was saying to me in the last day or two, she said our core values are so much the same. we've never done a ceremony. and we're not going to until we can do one legally and hopefully here with our family and
community. >> okay, i'll buy that. >> lennie gerber and pearl berlin were introduced to the world in the know and love campaign last year. and joining me from their home in north carolina. lennie and pearl, welcome back to the show. and lennie, tell me how it felt when you saw the supreme court rulings come down. >> i was just thrilled. i particularly was just exhilirated when i heard the doma ruling, because i was scared they were going to do it on very narrow grounds of state's rights. and that wouldn't have been good. but they did it on equality which was so important. and i was just thrilled to death. >> now, pearl, the last time you were on the show you were both on the show, it was just after
north carolina had passed an amendment banning marriage equality in that state. and so you could not obtain a marriage legally state-sanctioned. but you have gotten married since then. how did you do it? >> well, we turned to the synagogue and the rabbi, and we had -- on june 2nd, was fairly recently, a very lovely, complete ceremony surrounded by family and friends. and it was just a wonderful feeling to do it in our own synagogue, and as far as north carolina politics are concerned i have just about given up. not fully, i'm going to fight a little more. but in terms of marriage, i
don't think that is even in the near future. >> lennie, when you watched these decisions come down today and you could see in the television coverage of the steps of the supreme court, men and women of all ages. but when you especially focus on some of those 20--year-olds, 25-year-olds, gay men and women on the steps of the court were you envisioning the different kinds of lives they were going to be able to have over the next 60-80 years compared to the lives that you have lived? >> oh, absolutely. well, different in the sense that they will have all of these legal rights. it just won't be an issue. the same in the sense, though that love is love. and a relationship that is a good relationship, that you live together and go on about your life. it is very, very normal. and they will have the same -- i
mean, in one sense, our life was normal. except it didn't have all of the -- things that make it legal. but it was normal. and these -- but these kids, they're not going to have to worry about any of that. i predict that in a few years this is all going to clear up because things are moving so rapidly. >> pearl, there are a lot of young people in america now who are going to be able to get married who previously were not able to get married. and so they're going to be embarking, they hope, on a long-term committed relationship for decades. you know the secret, pearl, of how to keep the relationship like that going. tell these young people in america out there what they need to know right now about having a lifetime romantic relationship.