tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC December 10, 2014 10:00pm-11:01pm PST
but his actions are now the subject of a federal criminal case. that same u.s. attorney is the one prosecuting this second executive, gary southern, from the west virginia coal chemical that same u.s. attorney is the one prosecuting this second executive, gary southern, from the west virginia coal chemical drinking water disaster. the u.s. attorney says the drinking water disaster investigation continues. he expects more announcements soon. so maybe there will be even more arrests. this is not how the coal industry expects to be treated by government in west virginia but who know a few more arrest, a few more part-time felony indictments, maybe the expectations are start to charge. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. >> looks like it's a new day for that industry in west virginia. >> seriously. >> it turns out the most important rule for defending torture is to never admit that it's torture. >> the cia is lying. >> there was a lot of cherry pick going on by this committee. >> those who put together the senate report.
>> torture dependent just happen, after all. >> the cia tortured detainees for years. >> torture is something we avoided. >> water boarding that's ka lating into near drownings. >> we thought we were doing the nation's will. >> they're responsible for the use of these techniques. of course they're going to defend them. >> the level of abuse was torture. >> absolutely devastating to read. >> helps our enemies' recruitment efforts. >> what are we supposed to do in kiss them on both cheeks and tell us please, please, tell us what you know. >> my president would have ordered these interrogation methods. >> i have no sympathy for them. >> torture doesn't work. >> more often than not, you get bad information. >> talking points is siding with the cia people. >> it did, in fact, produce actionable intelligence.
>> i have a book on world war ii killing patents so i know what i'm talking about. >> i would do it again in a minute. >> washington is the place where you never, never have to read the report to attack the report. >> i haven't read the report but i know for a fact -- >> you haven't read it? >> 6,000 page. >> no, but how about 500 -- >> i've seen parts of it. summaries of it. >> here's what the man who says he hasn't read the senate intelligence committee report thinks of the 500-page senate intelligence report. >> this report says it's not successful. >> the report is full of crap. >> the defenders revealed by the senate intelligence committee report have one thing for common. for them, apparently, there's no such thing as torture. >> do you think what took place is torture?
>> legally not. >> in order to pretend no torture took place, none of the defenders of torture are willing to mention what actually happened. or defend it. >> they pured the food for one detainee and put it in his anus. is that torture? >> i can't speak to that. that was not one of the authorized or approved techniques. >> he's right. that's not an authorized technique. but the cia actually did use that unauthorized technique. and dick cheney refused to answer that question. instead, dick cheney got away from pretending on fox news that the choice facing the cia was to torture terrorists or kiss them
on both cheeks. >> what are we supposed to do? kiss them on both theek chooeks and say please, please, tell us what you know? of course not. >> not a single television defender of torture was willing to describe what the tortures actually did. >> we're not talking about anyone being burned or stabbed or cut or anything like that. we're talking about people made to stand in awkward positions. have water put into their nose, into their mouth. but again, nobody suffered any lasting injury. >> not unless you call death a lasting injury. joining me now is valerie plame and michael hirsch, interviewed michael hayden for his latest police for politico magazine. valerie, i noticed one thing about everyone who is trying to defend the program will not mention the specifics described in the report, especially all the rectal hydration.
not one of them makes a single rectal reference when they're defending all of this. hi lawrence, thank you for having me. under any common understanding of what torture is, it shows new that report. but here's another way of looking at it. if any of those techniques were used on u.s. military men and women overseas, the cry about torture against americans would be deafening. clearly, what vice president cheney is doing is defending his legacy, hoping if he puts it out there enough, it will be true. >> talk about general hayden. >> he has defended the program. he is miffed, though, because he came in in 2006 after the
program had been discontinued. we have to remember as a country, these programs were not acceptable. water boarding was discontinued. by implication, there was agreement it was tortured. he tows the line. he's upset that a program he merely tried to explain to the senate intelligence committee that he's being saddled with blame for it. >> to give hayden chronological credit here, when he takes over the cia, that actually is the first time, that is when they begin to open up to the full senate committees about what's
going on here. >> right. there's a question of whether videotapes of some of the water border sessions were destroyed. the committee looked into that, decided to broaden its investigation into the exact techniques and the extent to which some of these operations were rogue cia operations were authorized at higher levels. and i think that, you know, that's really the tenor of the 6,000-page classified report. and we've only seen, of course, 500-page summary of that. but the important thing is to have the senate absolve individuals for responsibility for these acts and official themselves, including hayden that say president bush was informed as early as 2002, he personally authorizing the water boarding and to have dick cheney saying well, except for rectal hydration, i knew everything that was going on. i was really struck the senate committee did not assign responsibility in to a more precise way. >> i think one of the keys to that is in something michael
hayden said on this network this morning. let's listen to that. >> we thought we were doing the nation's will. and, in fact, having lived through the period and even looking back on it now, i think this was indeed about the nation's will. you have a small group saying it's not about us, it's not us. it's them, they did it. frankly, that really is hypocrite call. >> to that issue of we thought we were doing the nation's will, is that your impression about the people working in the cia at that time? and what we're now reading about retroactively in the senate report. >> as a former cia ops officer and now a private citizen, i can't believe that this was done in our name. when you read the details it really is repugnant. hayden makes the point over and
over that in this report, which is flawed, because they were not able to interview many of those who were involved in the program, because there was a department of justice investigation. maybe they should have investigations, allow these people to put the programs into place to be interviewed, to be investigated, let them make their case. >> michael hayden is saying he would like to see a full investigation that does include testimony, that does include things that were not included in the senate staff report. >> i think he says that knowing it's not going to happen. the department of justice has closed this case basically.
there were 101 cases that were looked into. he said two of them involving deaths should be investigated by the doj. the doj closed that investigation a coup of years ago and has said it's not going to reopen it on the basis of this majority senate report. and next year, you have the fruns coming in and taking over the senate. so i think you're going to see anything really to be called a follow-up to this report. >> valley plame, the big dispute is is it effective? could we have made the intelligence advances we made without torture. the senate report absolutely indicates that it was not necessary, that they did have the information about bin laden's courier before there was any torture, that they were building this file. the cia in their response, in the republican response to the senate report says no, the full fabric of the intelligence has to be considered.
and included in the full fabric are some elements, some threads that came out of torture. how do we sort this out? >> it is hard, because they have -- each side has honed their arguments and it's loud and hot and history is at stake. on the cia said, i would say the effectiveness of torture has been vastly overstated. on the other part, i would say in deference to your previous job in the senate, maybe the staffers didn't get everything they needed to or understand the context, but that doesn't take away from the core question of, is this who we are? is this how we're going to proceed when it was a dire situation in the immediate aftermath of 9/11? clearly this country was traumatized.
but at those lowest moments you need to rely on your values, upon the oath of the constitution and what that means. and we failed. for me, at this point, though, the question is, what now? this report has come out, now what happens? we're having in the media a debate, a conversation, but what now? how do we go forward? >> one thing, valley, before we go, i would say about the report is, it reads to me as a nonargumentative report. they're simply saying based on the 6.3 million pages of documents we've been able to review, we do not find the evidence in these documents that proves the following thing. or we do find the evidence in these documents that does prove this thing. it's not a -- so far in what i've read of this report, it isn't really arguing conclusions. it's simply saying this is what the documents show.
>> this is what happened. yeah. exactly. it goes, though, to the very question of who we are and how we're going to respond. when i hear the likes of dick cheney and others defending torture as though it is yet another foreign policy tool that we have, i don't recognize that. that is not my country. and i think most americans as they're absorbing this and hearing this understand. >> valley plame and michael hirsch, thank you both for joining me tonight. >> thank you. coming up, the psychologist, that's what he call himself, who helped the cia invent torture techniques. and roger goodell has new rules for the nfl.
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>> a chokehold is defined as any pressure to the throat or windpipe which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air. the full city council is expected to vote on that ban in january. up next, the psychologist who tricked the cia out of $80 million to teach them torture techniques that don't work. that's next. goodnight. goodnight.
>> there is good news op the senate intelligence report on torture and that is that no one in the government knew anything about torture before the cia got into the torture business. they didn't have a well trained cadre of torturers ready to go, and so as senator rockefeller described it yesterday, they made everything up on the fly. the 123459 report indicates that the torture program was ineffectual and involved much more torture than anyone previously imagined and that it was a cesspool of corruption. a former military psychologist was given $81 million, instantly making him the highest paid shrink in the history of world. and his job was to come up with torture techniques. you're about to hear him discussing water boarding. you will have to listen very, very carefully for the wisdom, the humanity, and the decency. i couldn't hear any.
>> does water boarding constitute torture? >> well, we know it didn't in 2001 through about 2006 or '07. i don't think it's the right thing to do. i don't think it's the wrong thing to do. i think you can do it in a way that it constitutes torture. i think you can do it in a way that constitutes training. i think you can do it in a way that it helps a person shift their priorities so that they experience less abuse later on. it's like every tool in the tool bag. you can underuse it, you can overuse it. >> joining me now is a reporter for the huffington post, ellie watkins and zach meachum. so there we see the mad genius who up this program. >> no background in islamism or serious interrogation or what to do in order to get real actionable intelligence. it's a wonder that the program didn't even go more off the rails than it did.
it was already one of the most brutal -- reading that report is reading one of the most brutal things i have ever read in my life. the techniques were horrific. they produced no actionable intelligence. and the idea that a rank amateur was in charge of producing them and was paid $80 million by our government is frankly astounding. >> and allie, the senate report says neither psychologist had any experience as an interrogator, nor did either have specialized knowledge of al qaeda, background in counterterrorism or any relevant cultural or linguistic expertise. and here's $180 billion contract that they get. which the obama administration cancels as soon as they get in there, but by that time, these guyshood already collected $81 million for their torture training. >> yes, lawrence. i think the whole story line
surrounding mitchell and jess and these two psychologists who devised this program is really fascinating and a really important part of this story that i think the senate report doesn't necessarily examine in as much detail as is probably merited. but as far as whether or not mitchell and jessen were qualified, this notion of them being completely inexperienced when it comes to the environment they were dealing with, when it came to islam, when it came to the middle east, that's certainly relevant. >> let's hear from the man himself once again about getting actionable intelligence. >> you're saying the design and purpose of the enhanced program wasn't necessarily to get actionable intelligence? >> it was to facilitate getting actionable intelligence by making a bad cop that was bad enough that the person would engage with the good cop.
i would be stunned if they found any kind of evidence to suggest that eits, as they were being applied yielded actionable intelligence. i'm not going to acknowledge if it was me or wasn't me, but if you read rodriguez's book "hard measures" he says that the contractor they sent, job was to look at the resistance strategies that the detainee was employing and make suggestions to the fbi and cia team. >> zach meachem, it's kind of wonderful that the highest paid shrink in the history of the world has no idea how crazy he sounds. >> even on his own term, the argument makes no sense. i don't like this terminology, but you soften people up using torture and then afterwards they're going to talk. but if you look at the record of bin laden interrogation, the cia claims 16 people who were in their detention gave actionable intelligence.
they say three of them got them before they were tortured. in fact, seven more gave the intelligence before they were tortured. of the remaining six, three of them gave testimony the cia said was false and misleading. another two gave testimony that was only corroborative intelligence that the cia already had. and the last gave intelligence that the cia described as being speculative. this didn't produce intelligence. in fact, the person who gave the best system, a guy named hassan guhl gave most of that testimony before he was tortured. afterwards, he clammed up. there was no evidence. the evidence is that they gave false and misleading at best. >> let's listen to mr. mitchell once more time just so you can hear the full professionalism of this expert. listen to this. >> a very good friend of mine named don hutchins who was captured by kashimiri
separatists under the same guy that kidnapped daniel pearl before he turned him over to ksem, they let the women go but eventually killed the men. and i started trying to figure out, what is this about, you know? who are these people? so even though personally, i don't give a damn whether you worship, what god you worship, which way you face when you worship, what kind of building you worship in. i don't care. but literally, when you want to kill my friends and kill my family and you want to destroy my way of life, you've got my full attention 37. >> of course he doesn't care where they worship because he doesn't know anything about where they worship or anything else about these people that he was trying to get into the heads of. allie, go ahead. >> i think as i'm kind of considering the whole fact that mitchell did this interview in the first police place, which is a big deal because he hasn't spoken publicly about his role
in the program yet. i think there's some important things coming out of this story that, as i said, i think this is a big hole in the senate report that they don't really examine how this mitchell-jessen-seer psychologist thing happened. if you compare this to the committee report this in and of itself did a better job than the senate intelligence report of kind of looking at the back channels that happened before this program, this seed really started in washington, it's very important to see how mitchell and jessen, who in washington told them they were kwaul qualified to run this program. i don't think that question is really examined in the senate committee report. >> the more he talks, the less qualified he sounds. thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> thank you. >> thank for having me. >> coming up, new rules for nfl players in domestic abuse cases. the national football them ?
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council for investigations and conduct who will take over handling discipline investigations from goodell. here's what roger goodell had to say about the changes in an exclusive interview with nbc's peter alexander. >> we would like to prevent these incidents from occurring. and we are providing resources to do that. when they do occur, they have to be dealt with firmly, consistently, quickly, and we also need to make sure that we're doing the right things for the victims and survivors. that's the key thing for us. dana, one of the things we've been wondering about in this story is okay, is this the end? is this the end of this story? the new rules and now we're ready to just go forward. >> i don't think it's the end. we don't know who this new warden will be. the person doling out the punishments.
we still haven't seen the end of the adrian peterson issue. it's certainly not the end for me. we have to find out if the way things are laid out now are more satisfactory to us all. when somebody does get into trouble, how quickly does all of this come into play? i don't think we're going to know until unfortunately somebody finds himself in trouble again. i don't think it's the end of everything. >> jordan, at least there's a road sign up there. that says now, if you do this, this happens. >> i think that's a positive. we've seen this before and roger goodell, what they were able to par gain with is now being completely disbanded. and richard sherman, the cornerback for the seahawks, he made a great point. this is collectively bargained. now what are we supposed to do as player es and the nflpa. they're not following what we agreed to. that to me is insane. >> let me read to you something
from "the wall street journal" profile of roger goodell. he sit downs and tries to get advice from this. goodell said to bratton about what they do in the police department if this happens with domestic abuse. do you pull them off the job immediately? do you pay them during your own investigation? do you run your own investigation rather than wait through the criminal justice system. the article says mr. goodell's deputies scribbled the answers all yes. a lot of people are pointing out about that is they're kind of surprised that someone could be running an operation this big with an ongoing problem over many years of domestic abuse and not having approached any of those questions themselves. >> we saw this in the ray rice, he wanted to just reportedly watch the body language.
this is a $1 billion corporation where these players are the face of each franchise. and the face of the nfl. do not have taken it more seriously, it's too late to go back and fix what roger goodell did in the past. the question now going forward is if you're going to see there are a lot of really good guys in the league and there's some great representatives out there and there are just some people that do things wrong, why not in cases of domestic violence, all case where is some wrong doing is done by a player, why not get some of the players more involved in self-policing in some way. they seem to want to. and the nfl has pushed back, it seems, in every way it can. a couple of former players involved in one of the committees, but they really aren't going to have a say in what's happening to their own brethren when they do something wrong. that's what i would like to see. there seem to be a lot of players that were angry during the race situation and during the peterson situation.
>> yeah. and to piggy back on dana's point, the most powerful league in the world, the most powerful sports league in the world, and roger goodell, he's 55 years old. he's been the commissioner eight years, lawrence. and the void of leadership for this league, it's not only unacceptable, it's laughable. and to me that's the most disappointing thing. what dana said is the fair point. players would like to get involved. 98%, 99% of players who aren't committing any felonies, they hate to see this. as that continues to happen, you're going to see more issues down the road. >> there are better leaders in uniform on those team thans in the nfl offices. >> and so much is that bottom line that we keep coming back to. until money doesn't trump these things they're going to come back. >> that's why the owner is supporting them. coming up, after the coast
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peace prize for her bravery by defying the taliban in >> that was malala yousafzai in oslo today, accepting the nobel peace prize for her bravery by defying the taliban in continuing to attend school in pakistan when she was threatened if they continued to attend school. malala continued and the taliban attempted to assassinate her. she was shot in the head and has become, while still in high school, the world's leading champion of girls education. today, she described the range of challenges girls in many parts of world have to overcome to get an education. >> many children in africa do not have access to education because of poverty. ahead, we still see, we still see girls who have no freedom to go to school in the north of nigeria. many children, especially in
india and pakistan are deprived of their right to education because they have been forced to child marriage or into child labor. one of my very good school friends the same age as me who has always been bold and confident girl has dreamed of becoming a doctor, but her dream dream remained a dream. at the age of 12, she was forced to get marry.
and then soon she had a son. she had a child. when she herself was a child, only 14. eknow that she could have been a very good doctor but she couldn't because she was a girl. some of those are going to be very difficult to overcome and might take generations, but one problem, poverty is theoretically, at least, easy to overcome, conceptually easy, anyway, especially as an obstacle to education. poverty is not an obstacle to getting an education in the united states because our high schools are free. it costs children nothing to go to high school here. but that's not always true in the rest of the world. in africa, only elementary school is free and high school is not. in malawi where i've been trying to help girls go to high school,
a few families can afford the tuition in high school, even though some students it's about $50 a year. and the families who do manage to come up with that kind of tuition money usually spend it on the boys in the family rather than the girls. only 7% of girls in malawi finish high school. that's why the k.i.n.d. fund established a girls scholarship program in addition to our school desks program. and when i conceived of the k.i.n.d. fund four years ago, i wanted to keep it simple, very simple. kids in need of desks. i wanted to get these desks into schools in africa where teachers and students had never seen desks. simple, affordable concept, also a job program for workers in african factories who make these desks that we then deliver to schools that have never had desks. not schools that didn't have enough desks.
schools that never had a single desk for anyone. not for the students .and not for the teachers. the only thing we needed to get the desk into the classroom was money. and you have been very nen rouse about that. hundreds of thousands of students have used the desks that you have contributed. when you visit schools in malaw i, you can't help but notice when you look at the higher grades, the elementary schools and the high school, there are fewer and fewer girls in the classroom. so i decided the one thing worth adding to the very simple kids in need of desks concept, the one thing we could do was a way to help girls stay at these desks. so we created the girls scholarship program. a couple of years ago.
and this week, we crossed the $1 million mark in the scholarship fund. 1,043,200 for girl scholarships. bringing the total raised to $7,894,187. you can contribute to the k.i.n.d. fund by walling 1-800 for unicef. you can give. >> desk for someone on your gift list and we will send them a card, $5, $10, anything you can afford. if you can't afford anything, you can help by telling others about the kind fund. the most common ambition among girls i talked to in malawi in high schools is to be a nurse. you already guaranteed that is going to happen for some of
these girls. some of them might not have the academic skills to make it all the way to nursing, but many of them will. many of those girls whose education you have financed will become nurses in malawi, a country desperately needs more medical personnel. they will be paid enough to support their family and they will be giving live-prafrming services to their families and they do that thanks to their own circumstances at best. and they will do that in schools that they could not attend without your help. ♪ you don't need to think about the energy
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nations to toys for tots today from the white house. the first lady noted that it is the first time the president had joined her on this trip. >> i don't know how good he'll be with sorting. because he doesn't usually deal in shopping in any kind of way. but we'll watch him closely to see if he can figure out which one is girls 0 to 2 or unisex. so watch him. he could really make your work harder. so with that, it's my pleasure to introduce my husband, the president of the united states. >> hey, thank you. thank you. i'm the big elf. i'm like will farrell. >> oh, yeah. just like will farrell. we'll be right back. [ breathing deeply ]
to quit selling cigarettes in our cvs pharmacies. now we invite smokers to quit, too, with our comprehensive program. we just want to help everyone, everywhere, breathe a little easier. introducing cvs health. because health is everything. >> tomorrow, this man will be forced to close his school. his 11-year-old daughter faces the end of her education. >> i want to become a doctor. it's my own dream, but my father told me that you have to become a politician. but i don't like politics. >> but i see a great potential in my daughter. >> that was malala yousafzai
three years before the taliban's attempt on her life and five years before her father watched her become the first pakistani and the youngest person in history to be awarded nobel prize. >> my priorities changed, too. i had two options. one was to remain silent and wait to be killed and the second was to speak up and then be killed. i chose the second one. i decided to speak up. the terrorists tried to stop us. and it takes me and my friends who are here today on our school bus in 2012. but neither did the ideas, nor their bullets could win.
we survived. and since that day, our voices have grown louder and louder. >> joining me now via skype from "the new york times," who first documented the story of malala and her family in 2009. adam, she just becomes more extraordinary. she's 17 years old now, ainge she's clearly at 17 up with of the bravest and wisest women of the world. >> it's still surreal for me to see her on the global stage. i still tend to think of her as a 10, 11, 12-year-old girl
who's, you know, using her voice locally to try to change the situation in her own backyard. but obviously she's transformed into quite a woman. >> the taliban didn't kill her and she had a message today when she was accepting her nobel peace prize. let's listen to that. >> have you not learned in the holy koran allah says if you kill one person it's as if you kill whole humanity. do you not know that mohammed, peace be upon him, the prophet of mercy, he says, do not harm yourself or others. and do you not know that the very first word of the holy koran is the word icra, which means read. >> the taliban are not the impediment to girls' education in pakistan.
the real problem is a lack of money. the pakistani government doesn't adequately invest in education, and it's a deep cultural problem. it's important to keep in mind that pakistani brothers and fathers and uncles still do not want to send their girls to go to school. i can take you to huge swaths of the country where there's no taliban and girls aren't educated. >> she said she's going to donate her prize money, her nobel prize money to build schools in pakistan, especially in her home area there. let's listen to more about what she said about the problem in places like pakistan of some of the leaders of countries like that having their kids and their daughters go to school, but not worrying about others. let's listen to that. >> why do leaders accept that for children in developing
countries, only basic literally is sufficient when their own children do homework in algebra, mathematics, science and physics. leaders must seize this sunt to guarantee a free quality, primary and secondary education for every child. >> it shocks a lot of people when you tell them high school education isn't free in some countries. and even primary education isn't free in some countries. >> yeah. it's a financial burden for lower and middle class families such as malal a's family back in dat i. when you're going week to week and month to month, it dents the family's income. so it's an actual tradeoff, personal decision that families have to make. sometimes which kid to send to school, the boy or the girl. remember, boys can earn sooner.
>> thank you very much for joining us today on this important day for malala. thank you, adam. >> thank you very much for joining us today on this important day for malala. thank you, adam. >> thanks for having me. >> chris hayes is up next. "hardball" starts right now. where are you on torture? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. only the reminds me of a rule in politics. if you have to change the name to something else like they start referring to something as revenue enhancement, they're trying to hide the truth. what they're really talking about but don't want to say is raising taxes.