tv Lockup MSNBC March 14, 2015 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT
i'm trying to make it easy. >> you're not going to get hurt. >> a distraught inmate is placed in the jail's restraint chair. >> i can't breathe. >> now staff must unravel the mystery of what has him so upset. >> please. >> how much time have you done in this jail? >> 31 years. >> a familiar face struggles to
exit the jail's revolving door but there's a catch. >> he's islamic and he wants to go into a christian program. that's a problem. >> another inmate has pled guilty to manslaughter, but now in an unusual legal twist, he may have to stand trial for murder. >> they stated i was a monster, that i would go out and kill somebody else again. >> and a convicted murderer stands trial for a gruesome related crime. many of the small towns in bergen county, new jersey, are considered wealthy suburbs of nearby new york city, but bergen has a notable city of its own,
hackensack. just outside of downtown is the county's legal district, home to its courthouses and the bergen county jail. >> it's a state-of-the-art facility. we currently have 277 sworn officers as well as 58 civilians. >> close to 900 male and female inmates. most have only been charged with crimes and are awaiting trial for the resolution of their cases. >> many of those cases are resolved within days, but others can drag on for years. the challenge for those inmates is learning how to cope with monotony and confinement, fear and anxiety. [ screaming ] >> some meet the challenge better than others.
>> inside one of the jail's high-security, inmate paul dixon is having a difficult time. >> paul. nobody is hurting you. just put your happens through so we can get you out of here. >> dixon is naked in what is known as a single person special management cell. he was placed there earlier in the day due to erratic behavior. his clothes were replaced with a tear-proof gown to prevent self-injury or suicide. >> put your gown on. >> originally he was in a mental health housing unit and was medically cleared through a psychiatrist and he was put in the general population. he lasted about ten minutes and he was flipping out. brought him back to medical. they placed him on special management. >> put your hands through. nobody is hurting you. okay. >> paul, put the gown on. >> paul, i'm trying to make it easy. you're not going to get hurt. >> sergeant turry has decided to remove dixon from his cell and place him in a restraint chair
so he can be safely evaluated by medical staff. >> paul, relax. >> for legal reasons jail policy has to videotape incidents like this one. >> nobody is hurting you. listen. nobody is hurting you. ready? relax. grab him. intake. >> go ahead, go right there. >> nonviolent. >> dixon is back in jail on a parole violation. he had been sentenced to 101 days for third degree theft. he's had prior convictions for theft, as well. >> don't hurt me. >> we have to put him in the restraint chair until he gets calmed down and gets evaluated once again. by the medical staff and then we take it from there. >> we're here to help you. relax. >> look at me. a nurse will come in here and check you out. everything will be fine.
>> just relax, all right. relax, man. >> for safety of himself, staff, the institution it's basically a cooling off period, supervised by custody staff, medical checks him out. >> roughly an hour later the officers return. dixon has calmed down and they feel he's now ready to be moved back to his special management cell. >> you done your time in the chair. we're going to take you out of the chair. we're going -- it's not what you want. this is, you know, can't stay in the chair. >> what's going to happen? >> it's the same size room. >> that was the thing. >> you have a window.
you can see the outside. in medical you have no window. >> you go there over and chill out. you need something to calm down. >> dixon continues to beg to be housed elsewhere. after several minutes of coaxing he agrees to return to his cell. >> paul, you'll see mental health tomorrow. >> in a nearby cell is edwin estrada, a friend dixon met during prior stays here. he trade da says he didn't know dixon was on the unit until he was awakened by his cries. >> my port was open. i looked. i couldn't see his face. but i remembered his voice. i'm like, yo, that's paul dixon. i know him. >> estrada was surprised that dixon who has gone to jail numerous times before was so distressed. >> i'm not saying he's faking but sometimes you do stress out in here. some people are not built for this.
>> he's going through some stress of his own. several weeks earlier he pled guilty to aggravated manslaughter for killing an 88-year-old world war ii veteran. he was described by his family as a vibrant and active great-grandfather. >> i don't want to go to hell for what happened. i'm really afraid. you know, i don't want to spend the rest of my eternity in hell. what happened was i was smoking angel dust and i ended up in one of my friend's grandfather's house. it was like, it gets you really paranoid and i went crazy and lost my mind. i went into the kitchen and i grabbed a pen to hit him twice or three times. the velocity of it was so fast, it was so hard that the pot itself was bent. it was bent in.
i heard him yell, turned around and i started running and i remember the only thing i do vividly remember was like me grabbing the wallet he left on the table. >> six days after the attack, estrada was arrested when he attempted to use one of the victim's credit cards. the man regained consciousness but died 11 days later in the hospital. he was able to tell the authorities that he was sitting on his couch watching tv and was attacked from behind. estrada was originally charged with first degree murder. in a deal with prosecutors he pled down to aggravated manslaughter and was sentenced to 27 years in prison. but then his case took an unusual turn. estrada's deal was approved by a judge who was sitting in for the presiding judge while she was on vacation. when the presiding judge returned she overturned the deal. she was swayed by complaints by some of the victim's family members that 27 years was too light a sentence for such a brutal crime.
>> the judge, she's more towards the family. i understand you have to be sympathetic to the family. they stated i was a monster. i would go out there and kill somebody again. >> estrada will soon return to the court to see if the judge is open to a new plea deal or will make him stand trial for murder. a crime punishable by life in prison. >> the judge, she just wants me to do life. if it goes to trial, i'm screwed. >> coming up -- >> this teaches you about paradise. that sounds good. right now it sounds good. >> edwin estrada seeks a new religion and a talented artist with a gruesome past. >> when i finished, what am i going to do now?
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is a very different world. in the maximum security unit, surprise searches for contraband are a regular part of life. >> shake-downs here in the bergen county jail are performed on a continuous but sporadic basis. it's to catch the inmates off guard. >> spread your legs. >> i personally like that they get too comfortable being anywhere. i consider it my house, you're a visitor. you get in there, too comfortable, too bad. >> we're looking for contraband. >> he use as a weapon. grab somebody from behind. >> contraband can go from as far as a weapon and it also goes to excess. inmates can buy a newspaper, if they have 50 weeks of newspapers, it's got to go. >> these guys are here for a long term. they accumulate more stuff.
>> today julio flores will lose some excess items in his cell. >> back it up. >> inmates are allowed only two pencils in a cell, anything over that is confiscated. >> how many pencils do you think you lost here today? >> flores relies on pencils to it brings a small touch of beauty to an otherwise stark jail cell. he says it's a talent he only discovered in prison. when you are a killer. >> flores may believe his art comes from god but says he was on his own five years earlier when he strangled his 28-year-old ex-girlfriend.
>> while you were choking her? >> yeah. i said, god is not here. >> flores killed his ex-girlfriend inside his bronx new york apartment. he pled guilty to second-degree murder and received a sentence of 19 years to life in a new york state prison. but now he's been extradited to new jersey to stand trial for a related crime. >> flores admits that after he murdered his victim, he dismembered her body. >> when i finished killing her,
>> flores placed the body parts into a plastic bag and drove them to a vacant home in bergen county, new jersey and placed the bags in buckets. >> how many buckets? >> four buckets, five buckets in all. i used cement too, concrete to put, you know, all over in the buckets. >> the owner of the house happened to stop by. found flores in the front yard and questioned him. >> i said, listen, man, i got some body there. he looked at me. what? yeah. i killed my ex-girlfriend yesterday. >> now in addition to his conviction for second-degree murder, flores is charged in bergen county with desecration of human remains. [ speaking a foreign language ] >> though he's openly admitted
to the act, this time he's pled not guilty and will soon stand trial. he says god led him to that decision. >> why are you always smiling in the newspapers? >> in the moment he forgive me my sins and i feel all my guilt is out of me. i'm so happy. i don't live with bad memories no more. i believe she's already free. god is love. >> while flores may face incarceration for the rest of his life, paul abdul wiggins hopes that his days in jail are nearing an end. >> 31 years. >> so you got 19 years on me. >> yeah. >> wiggins has pretty much been a regular since 18. the jail no longer has his earlier mug shots on record but wiggins says whether the conviction was for theft, robbery, dealing or addiction,
all his crimes have centered around a voracious drug addiction. >> so this is every time mr. wiggins has ever been incarcerated in this facility and it's 10, 20, 30, about 40 times. when he first comes in, he's on edge. >> yeah, because he's high usually when he comes in. >> coming off drugs. >> doesn't want to talk. doesn't want to be bothered. wants to be left alone. >> agitated. >> he's dope sick and then once he comes around he thaws out, he's usually pretty good. he's win of our frequent flyers, you know. >> wiggins says that after all these years he's finally had enough. >> next year i'll be 50 years old, man. this is the time that i'm really starting to wake up to all the things that i've been through in life. finally at that stage where i see things so much clearer, man. i mean a whole lot clearer. >> wiggins is currently in jail on his latest drug possession conviction.
this time his judge gave him a choice, serve five years in prison or enter a long term residential drug rehab program. upon completion he would be released on probation. wiggins is working with staff to get placed into a program but until then, he just remain in jail. >> you know sometimes it's difficult, man, to explain to people, you know, like how many times i've been in and out of this system and it's sad, really. now you see a guy that is anxious for change. i never thought i would live to see 30 but i'm here. i have a beautiful granddaughter that i'm crazy about. i want to be there when she graduates high school. i want to be there when she go to college and graduate. i wasn't there for my daughter. when i think about it, it hurts. and she didn't deserve that.
i was afraid to change at one time because i was so comfortable being where i was at. it just became an everyday routine. but now i'm willing to take that challenge. >> wiggins, who works as an inmate food server, has spent so much time at bergen county, he has seen staff come and go and go up the ranks. >> there's lieutenants, captains, wardens, they were all officers when i first came in. >> l.t. >> what's up? >> 25 years ago paul was a rookie here. now a lieutenant he is one of the jail's highest ranking officers. he's known wiggins his entire career. he says the younger wiggins was a handful. >> everything was a fight. and, you know, we wouldn't be standing like this with each other those years. we would be fighting, rolling around on the ground. and it took him a while but i do believe that everybody should be given an opportunity and he told
me he said never had an opportunity. so he's getting one now and i think that if he walks the walk because he's talking the talk he'll make it. yeah, i do. >> coming up -- >> why are you picking these programs? >> the program has a lot to offer me. >> paul abdul wiggins pleads his case to a skeptical staff person. >> i promise you i will not help you at all. >> then officers get to the boiman of paul dixon's breakdown. the question i get the most is probably do you feel fear? what's the closest you've ever come to death? they're boring. i have a website because i need a way to put myself forward in my own way. this is my story and this is how i want to share it with people. i'm alex honnold and this is my squarespace.
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behind the walls of hackensack, new jersey's bergen county jail, paul dixon recently had what appeared to be an emotional breakdown. he just spent time in the mental health unit for a routine evaluation before being released to general population. a short time later he began wailing and was placed in a restraint chair. >> if you put me in medical, in the suit, i won't say a word. >> dixon later calmed down and
returned to his cell and now officers have determined the episode was not a breakdown, an act of manipulation. >> he definitely is manipulating the system. he was comfortable in the mental health housing unit and once he was cleared for general of had population he realized that it wasn't too comfortable over there. now he's doing his best to get re-evaluated and get put back in mental health housing. >> um, all of it was fake, basically. i just -- it was like a whole act that i was doing. >> why? >> so i could just get to the other housing unit so i wouldn't have to come to either here or go to general population. >> it's not uncommon for inmates to want to spend time in the mental health unit. there are no cells, fewer inmates and it's a quieter setting. >> i just like it to be quiet where i could watch tv.
>> you're a heck of an actor. >> thank you. i seen a lot of people throw temper tantrums before, saying they are hearing voices and suicidal and all that. if you're going to do something, you got to play it out to its fullest. >> officers say they won't take risk if an inmate appears to be in a state of distress, it's not the first time they hear one cry wolf. >> you get to know after a while who is pretty much playing a game and who is for real. you know, it just becomes kind of a spidey sense so to speak. >> dixon never made it back to the mental health unit but said he's glad to be free of the restraint chair. >> trust me nobody can get out of that car seat, not the best of the best of the best, not even if you're houdini can you get out of that thing. while inmates in this housing unit are only released from their cells a few at a time they can visit with each other when they are out. >> what's up, man? >> now dixon's old friend, edwin
estrada has dropped by. >> you were going crazy. you woke me up. pulling you out naked. seen your [ bleep ] and stuff. >> estrada who admitted to killing an 88-year-old world war ii vet with a kitchen pen is waiting a new court day. his original plea deal was overturned by a judge for being too lenient. >> first off it was 27 years and i signed for it and she took it back. >> what are they talking about? >> life. >> they can't give you life. >> yeah. it's murder. >> how old was the dude? >> he was old. >> he confessed killing the man. a fact he knows could hurt him in trial and it could result in a life sentence if found guilty. but he's equally concerned about what awaits after life. >> i really don't want to go to hell for what happened. i'm really afraid. i don't want to spend the rest of my eternity in hell.
i worry about what will happen after my death. we all die one day but where do you go? you know what i'm saying. >> estrada was raised catholic but says now he's trying something new, the religion of islam. >> you know how you window shop. i'm religion shopping. >> you're going through every religion. >> maybe. whichever one i'm hungry for. >> and of late estrada has been hungry quite a bit. it's the start of the muslim holiday of ramadan which requires followers to fast every day until sundown for an entire month. >> you're supposed to be fasting. >> i'm fasting. i never ate that baloney sandwich. as a matter of fact of fact -- >> i feel more towards peace with islam because for some reason it helped me settle my anger sometimes and islam teaches you about paradise. right now it sounds good. i really don't want to go to hell. >> sit down, bro.
>> coming up -- >> edwin estrada struggles with his new religion and the jury returns a verdict for julio flores. >> i'm so happy. really i'm so happy. something touched me here. , like a guppy in a shark tank. it just feels like, car salesmen want to sell whatever car is best for them, not best for me. there's gotta be a better way. ♪ as long as people drive cars carmax will be the best way to buy them. get fast-acting, long-lasting relief from heartburn with it neutralizes stomach acid and is the only product that forms a protective barrier that helps keep stomach acid in the stomach where it belongs. for fast-acting, long-lasting relief. try gaviscon®.
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the original bergen county jail completed in 1912 looked more like an ominous castle compared to its modern replacement which opened next door in 2000. paul abdul wiggins is one of the few inmates whose long record of coming in and out of jail spans most facilities. >> i'm a man of my word. i got to keep my word. that's all i got. >> wiggins has had more than 40 stays at the jail and a litany of drug, theft and robbery convictions that he says all stemmed from addiction. >> i used to sniff heroin and coke. it was something that i allowed myself to like when i should have been hating it at all times. >> now a 49-year-old grandfather, wiggins says he wants to change. >> i asked my creator to erase this taste from my mouth, take
this taste away from me. i believe i'm strong enough now to fight that demon that's inside of me. >> wiggins' opportunity lies in his sentence for his latest drug possession charge. his judge has told him he can either serve five years in a state prison or enter an approved drug rehabilitation program at a halfway house and stay clean. >> i think that somewhere in his life he's reached an epiphany. if you will. he realizes he can't do this. you can't do this your whole life or else you end up dying in here or your family dies while you're in here. and i think that's become very real to him as he's gotten older. >> wiggins' ability to get into a drug program lies with dawn breeden, who has tried to heavy him in the past without much luck. >> i'm going to see mr. wiggins. >> breeden is the jail's inmate advocate. part of her job is matching inmates with community resources.
but breeden has a problem with wiggins' request. >> he's islamic and he wants to go into a christian program. that's a problem. i know from my past experience if someone who is of a different religion goes into a christian program, they usually have a problem following the spiritual guidance there. so that's why i want to find him someplace that will be more amenable to his faith. >> if you look at -- stop looking at half of the picture. >> i'm looking at the whole picture. >> no you're not. >> yes, a many. >> you're not seeing like i'm seeing. >> that's the whole problem. you ain't been seeing it right for the past how many years? >> oh, man, that was a low blow. that was -- >> you just said it. >> that's below the belt. >> why are you picking these programs? >> why? because the program has a lot to offer me. >> but the foundation that your faith is built on, the foundation -- okay. >> that's the only thing --
>> but it's your foundation. >> you know, i don't want to go there because that's my old stomping grounds. >> okay. >> i'm too familiar with all that. i need to be somewhere where i don't know nobody. i don't know where i'm going. >> everyone wants to see him try harder this time. like he said, he's done this before. so, i want to give him a good start. i'm going to call the salvation army program. i'm going to accept someone who is islamic. if they say no i'll let them take him off his list. now if you come back here again under any circumstance, i promise you i will not help you at all. no matter how many lieutenants, captains or anybody comes and says, you're going to help him, right. >> you know the sad part about it, i believe you. >> i'm telling you the truth. >> i know. >> i'm telling the truth. >> i believe you. >> as wiggins waits to find out
if he'll be accepted into the program he continues his job as a food server. this week that might be more challenging than usual. wiggins is observing the month long islamic holiday of ramadan and must fast until sundown. he converted to islam during a jail stay ten years earlier and took the name abdul. >> abdul means servant like serving god. when i'm living right and i'm doing right and on the straight and farrow path, i'm god's servant. that's why i chose that name. >> about 10% of the inmate population is muslim and for those who request it, the jail provides meals that meet the religion's dietary requirements. >> it's blessed. you know like the coacher. that's what makes it special. it's blessed. >> we got to wait another -- for another list. so i know i try.
he can't wait. look at him. he can't wait to eat. >> 19 hours. >> edwin estrada said he embraced the religion because among other things, he fears going to hell as taught by his catholic upbringing. this inmate has served as a mentor but says he has to keep an eye on estrada. >> you got to watch him. he asked me for canteen. i'm going to fast, let me get a honey bun. i said, okay, here, but you got to fast. >> estrada hoped he would find peace in islam but now he's not so sure he's cut out for it. >> i'm not going to do it. >> i've been telling you that. nobody can force religion to you. you know, i been telling you that. either you want -- you told me you want to be muslim. i said, all right, that's fine but then you act the whole -- >> i'm too immature.
just too immature. just the bottom line. every day wash my hand, wash my feet, wash everything and pray and i got to do it again three hours later. you know, all of that and just too much discipline for me. i'm done with that. i don't want to act like somebody i'm not no more. you know what i'm saying and i'm not going to do it. you're not going to catch me -- >> you just answered my entire time i was telling you. >> you're not going to catch my 4:00 a.m. praying facing that way. see what i'm saying. >> it's not that way. >> this way. it's been a while since i prayed. >> you probably never did. >> outside the unit wiggins continues his food delivery route. he only delivers trays to the door of each housing unit and that's a big relief, especially when it comes to one unit. >> i just bring it to this door and that's it. it's a wrap. i don't go in there. lockdown. max.
that's max in there. there's killers in there. i'm not a killer. >> one of those convicted killers is julio flores. after strangling his ex-girlfriend inside his bronx, new york, apartment, he pled guilty to second-degree murder and was sentenced 19 years to life in a new york state prison. because flores was actually arrested in new jersey with the woman's body parts concealed inside buckets, he was extradited to bergen county to stand trial on an additional charge, desecration of human remains. and earlier today it took a jury less than two hours to find him guilty. >> so tell me about when you first heard the verdict and what your reaction was. >> you're not going to believe me because i'm so happy. really i'm so happy. something touched me. and i can't explain. i feel like happy. i can't explain. it's out of this world and all people look at me like crazy. >> you're at peace.
>> yeah. i'm right in the hands of god. >> flores was sentenced to 20 years in the new jersey state prison system, which he'll only serve if he's ever released from prison in new york. ironically he could serve a longer sentence for desecrating his ex-girlfriend's body than murdering her. >> are you so sure now you've been forgiven for your crime and how? >> of course. >> do you think you'll see your victim in heaven? >> that's not dependent on me. >> do you want to see her in heaven? >> if i can, it's all right. >> what would you say to her? >> what would i say to her if i see her in heaven. i think everybody when they go to the heaven is already forgiven so you don't need to ask for forgiveness. just hold and love them. just says like god loves you and that's it. what am i going to say, i'm sorry for killing you. no, you don't need it.
coming up -- >> estrada came to me earlier about feeling depressed. he suggested sanchez be his bunky. >> edwin estrada requested some company but might receive more than he bargained for. >> i never seen anybody clean like that man cleans. if i was able to take that man home, i would take him home and alou him to clean my house because that's how good he cleans in here. we're on a mission, a mission for underwareness, a cause to support the over 65 million people who may need the trusted protection of depend underwear. join us. drop your pants for underwareness and show off a pair of depend. because wearing a different kind of underwear, is no big deal. support the cause and get a free sample of depend at underwareness.com. let'at your credit. >>i know i have a 786 fico score, thanks to all the tools and help on experian.com.
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changed his tune. he's also gotten his clothes back. >> i guess i was in the chicken soup, graduated back to the orange uniform. you know, behaved. did pretty good. >> how does it feel to be in this? >> much better. i learned that if i ever do come back, which i'm not going to come back to jail, i'll do it the right way and take it like a man. it's not worth it putting these guys through all types of hell, you know. >> dixon is in jail on a probation violation for third degree theft but soon will be going home. >> i went to court and said, hey and they granted me time served. and they terminated my probation so i'm waiting a little bit, probably another hour or so i should be going home, you know. and now i can see my kids. see my family again. and work my way up, get back into school and be successful and accomplish things in life. i'm too old to be coming to jail. so take that advice and don't
come to jail. >> dixon's friend edwin estrada faces the possibility of never living in the free world again. he will soon appear in court to learn if his judge will entertain another plea deal or order him to stand trial for allegedly killing an elderly man with a kitchen pen. >> i really do feel bad for what happened. inside it's hard to live with. at first when i got here i was sort of in denial. it was like, you know what, i don't need to be here but in the back of my head, somebody died. i need to pay for what happened. that's the reality of thing. i messed up so much in my life that sometimes it's like can it get any worse. you know? i really don't think it can get any worse from now. i don't want to say i jinxed myself but that's how i feel. >> look. >> estrada had hoped his conversion to islam would help relieve his stress but he recently decided that it wasn't for him so now he's looking for other ways to cope.
>> i don't know. i feel like i need a bunk ki. i'm just losing my mind being by myself. you want company. you need somebody to talk to to express how you feel. >> estrada came to me earlier about feeling depressed, not talking to anybody. he suggested if inmate sanchez can be his bunky. if it helps estrada out in any way, then it helps me out. i got a lot of things going on. we don't want any suicides happening. stuff like that >> you're going tp 48. >> now? >> yeah. i got to clean the room it's dirty. >> he clean. >> he cleaned. >> sanchez is known at the jail for being clean, very clean. >> i've never seen anyone clean like that man cleans. >> yeah, i was going to clean the whole room because for sanchez to come in. i want to clean out the cell before he moves in. my mom always told me when you clean, it has -- it has cleaner energy. you feel better and stuff. >> do you have any concerns about them bunking together?
>> no, not at all. because sanchez, he's a good worker. estrada, sometimes he still gets depressed every once in a while and they can watch each other. >> shortly after sanchez moves in, there's a problem. >> he thought the room was clean but you didn't give me a chance to scrub the floor. >> it's not clean. >> we got to do that. >> we got to clean. >> that's depression. >> you see my toilet. and my sink too. >> he's the cleanest man. >> see the toilet and sink not like that. bro. [ applause ] >> sanchez is a unit worker. we need to keep the units as clean as possible. and he does the best job out of all the workers that we have. so i use him as often as i can. he'll go in and scrub from ceiling to floor and i mean wets the ceiling, the walls and takes the squeegee and he squeegees it down. the bunks get lean.
all the metal gets clean. >> the smell is good. >> i'm telling you when he leaves it's clean. i even allow him to clean the officer's bathroom because he does a good job. if i was able to take him home i would take him home and allow him to clean my house because that's how good of a cleaner he is. >> is your room clean? very clean? yes. very clean. >> so, edwin, did you count on this? no, i didn't. it smells like a rat down in here. coming up -- >> i want to get something like 15 to 20. >> i just want you to be realistic. >> a counselor tries to temper edwin estrada's high hopes before he heads to court to learn his fate and -- >> two of my greatest fears is me dying in prison and my mother passing while i'm in here. i don't want that never to happen. >> paul abdul wiggins stares reality right in the face. shopping for a used car is so intimidating.
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compared to prison where the inmates have all been sentenced and know how long they will serve, life in jail is a world of uncertainty. but every day resolution arrives for someone. >> paul dixon, we're going to take you out of the chair. >> i can't be in that room, i'm claustrophobic. >> paul dixon put on a show in order to manipulate his housing assignment. >> listen, i'm telling you right now you're going to south lawn and if you cause problems you'll end up back in the chair. >> it didn't work. but one month after that incident, he's a free man. >> paul dixon, he violated probation for original charge of third degree theft and was released yesterday. >> dixon will still be on probation, but now he has another chance to make it on the outside. the future seems less bright for his friend edwin estrada.
after admitting to killing an 88-year-old man by striking him numerous times with a kitchen pan, estrada's plea deal of 27 years was revoked by a judge who decided the sentence was too lenient. estrada is hopeful for a new plea deal but he also faces the possibility of going to trial for murder and a potential life sentence if found guilty. helping through it is mental health clinician, jackie gill. >> because he's facing serious charges and his case has taken twists and turns that we didn't expect i've been seeing him the whole time he's been here. >> good morning. >> we just worked with the possibility of life. that's the reality he's going to prison for a long time. so to skirt around that issue would do him a disservice. >> new attorney and stuff. i'm working to try to get something like 15 to 20 with this new attorney. >> that would be a lot different than -- >> i would be happy -- >> -- what he planned for.
>> to tell you the truth, i would be content. >> how realistic do you think that option is, the lower end. >> the lower number? >> i just want you to be and you know we've talked about this all the time about being realistic as to the situation and realistic of all the possible outcomes. so, you know, whereas 15 to 20 would be great, we've also talked about 28 and we've also talked about 40 and life. >> that's crazy. >> it is crazy. >> there's no way i'll accept a plea deal for 40. i might as well go to trial. that's crazy. i'm not going to do that. like you say, you have to be realistic. at the same time i have to look at both sides. i have to look at being realistic and look at being hopeful and stuff. >> there's always hope but it's a slippery slope because you don't want to bash their hope or hinder their hope but you got to balance it with the reality. >> hopefully if everything goes well because i can't do life.
>> the next day estrada leaves jail for the court hearing that will change his life. >> the victim's family i guess they want me to do life. i guess if i was in their position, i could see where they are coming from. but i don't think i deserve life. >> just before he enters the courtroom, estrada is summoned to a private meeting with his attorney where he presumably will learn his fate. moments later he has his answer. >> there's no deal today. they want to bring me to trial. i'm fine with that, you know. >> i thought earlier said you weren't. >> i guess i can't do anything about it, i have to accept the fact that i'm going to trial. if i lose, i end up getting probably life. >> estrada was 18 when he was arrested for this case.
>> watch your step. watch your step. >> the same age as paul abdul wiggins when he first came to jail on an armed robbery charge. that was 31 years ago. and wiggins has been in and out of jail 40 times since then. but he says now he's finally ready to take advantage of the opportunity afforded him to do better. though she had some concerns about his muslim faith being a good fit, inmate advocate dawn bryden was able to place wiggins in a christian-based halfway house where he will receive drug counseling, job training and life skills programs. >> today the lieutenant called me down and informed me that i was going into the program and i should be leaving sometime next week. so i'm just hoping the program is right for me and it'll do me some good because this ain't doing me nothing. >> this is your first program. all the years you've been going through us and coming through here, this is the first time
investigators are trying to figure out what prompted a man to start shooting at police in hackensack. >> a crime involving law enforcement, we take more personally. >> a police shootout leaves an inmate in the hospital with 14 bullet wounds and two other men are arrested. >> i didn't shoot the cop but i sold the gun. >> he had this thought in his head that he wanto