that they're going to be peaceful. we're making our demonstration down to the baltimore city jail and making a human chain around that to shift the narrative, that is not about cvs or that good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. msnbc's germane lee and with city heads into the third night of a curfew, we have major twomts today in the case of freddie gray who died on april 19th after sustaining fatal injuries while in police custody. police announced this morning they graduated their findings to the state's attorney who was just sworn in in january. it will be up to her office to decide whether to pursue charges. police also revealed that the police van carrying gray made a previously undisclosed stop on its way to the station, discovered only after reviewing

footage from a privately owned camera. today a local abc station in washington d.c. reported new accounts of freddie gray's injuries from anonymous law enforcement sources who claim "the medical examiner found gray's catastrophic injury was caused when he slammed into the back of the police transport van apparently breaking his neck a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van." the identity of the mist ear where yous second prisoner who was in the van with gray the subject of a very controversial washington post report has now been revealed. today he spoke to an investigative reporter with our local nbc affiliate in baltimore. we will have that exclusive extended interview just ahead. first let's bring in msnbc reporter germane lee in baltimore. you and i remember talking last night when we were out in front of city hall about how that washington post story, the headline of which was a quote attributed to a police document leaked of a police account of what that man you just saw said

that he was -- freddie gray was intentionally trying to injure himself and how that was going to play in baltimore when folks woke up today. what has been the reaction? folks are obviously concerned, and after a couple of nights of calm, folks are, once again, on edge. i spoke to a number of people today, and they feel that some of the leaks are just trying to seed the foundation for a counter narrative, but what's been troubling for folks is this idea that there was a stop that police found out today that one of the officers -- the officers that were involved in the arrest made some mysterious stop and that it was captured on some private video and they just learned that today. many people said that in this police department which is 40% black, it's not so much about's, it's about corruption. these ideas are feeding the concept among many people who just don't trust the police. they don't trust this investigation. again, we talked yesterday that all of these leaks, all of this kind of stirred up paranoia and

hysteria among people who are pushing and fighting for justice only throws the situation in much more precarious situation. >> does it feel tenser there today than it did yesterday? >> i wouldn't say it feels a little more tense at all. i think the resolve seems strengthened. when earlier today when there were two marches, one that began here on the west side another began on the east side and the two met not far from city hall. it seems that folks are getting more organized and here getting, you know -- they're getting -- it's bolstering their energy. >> i want you to stay with us. we also are now getting some live pictures from philadelphia. philadelphia hey huge march. hundreds perhaps thousands. you can see them there in downtown philadelphia. there are some very, very tense exchanges happening with police at this moment. you are looking at a live helicopter shot. you can see the kind of pushing and shoving right there at the frontlines between protesters

and police. police using batons to push into the crowds, grabbing some members of the crowd as you see on the frontlines. this all developing live right now in philadelphia. culmination of a march that started about an hour hour and a half ago. folks calling for a march in baltimore. part of the movement that is grown out of ferguson and other places where we have seen protests against police brutality. we will continue to monitor those pictures in philadelphia. now, we still don't know how exactly freddie gray ended up with 80% of his spinal cord severed at the neck. we do know or appear to know that it happened during the roughly 45 minutes between gray's apprehension by the baltimore police and his arrival at the western district police station where paramedics were called. thanks to information released by the police and top notch work by reporters on the ground we are getting a clearer picture of what exactly happened to fred wri gray in those fateful 45 minutes on april 12th. it all starts at 8:39 a.m. at

the corner of west north avenue and north mount street where freddie gray is described as hanging out with a friend. four police officers pull up on bikes, and after making eye contact with one of them, according to multiple accounts gray takes off running. according to police charging documents gray was arrested without force or incident but eye about anses describe gray crying out in pain and being handled roughly by officers loading him into the police van. part of which you can see in that infamous cell phone video. minutes later the van comes to a stop about a block away at the corner of north mount street and baker street. now, according to police the driver stops to fill out paperwork and he says gray is acting "irate" in the back of the van. at this point freddie gray is removed from the van and placed in leg irons. once again, that's caught on camera by a bistandard.

the van drives on. what comes next was not known until this morning. the police department revealed today that a privately owned camera recorded the police van making a previously undiscovered stop on its way to central booking at the corner of north fremont avenue and mosier street. we still do not know neglect about what may have happened during that stop what the cause of it was or what police may have done there, but at 8:59 a.m. almost 20 minutes after the arrest the van makes a third stop. true et hill avenue and dolphin street when the driver requests an additional unit to come and check on gray. according to police the officers respond and are able to communicate with freddie gray but they have to pick him off the floor of a van and put him back in his seat. now, at some point during the stop the van is requested at another location to pick up a second prisoner. we don't know what time it arrives there at 1600 west north avenue. just a couple of wlox blocks from where gray first encountered the police. a second prisoner with from the

police department is loaded into the van separated from gray by a metal divider. is t proceeds to the western district police department. then the fire department gets a call about an unconscious male. this second prisoner has been the subject of a controversy. it was reported late last night based on a leaked document that this second prisoner told investigators freddie gray was banging on the walls inside the van and trying to injure helms. well, wbal tv investigative reporter managed to track down that second prisoner. the source the subject of that article, and here is her interview with him. >> so on the morning of april 12th what happened? >> well the morning of april 12th i went in the store right here on penn north avenue to get a cigarette. you know what i mean? they shut the store down. see, they helping us out. they shut the store down. i come out the store without the cigarette because i already done smoked it. that's how they cool with it. when i come out the store, they say, well where the cigarette

at? these are the police. they asked me where the cigarette at? i'm telling them i already done smoked it. they get to checking me checking me right? when they checked me all right, i ain't got the cigarette. they ran me straight through, put me on the ground hit me in my face. all my brothers know wrush they seen it. hit me in the face and all that. when they put me in the van, i did not know nobody was in there. there's two sides of the van. i want you all to realize. two sides of the van. one side and there's another side. three people can fit on one side and three people on the other. there's no space in there where a man could hurt himself intentionally by himself. before he got in that van he was hurt. when he got in that van, he was already deteriorated. i know this for fact because when we got to that police station he was dead. >> wait. let's back up. when you got in the van, did you know there was a prisoner? >> i did not know. i had -- i had it in my mind that somebody might be in this van because i heard a little banging. the little banging that i heard i thought he was hitting his head. i did not know what was going on

all right. oh, they playing games. when i got to the police station, they said we gave him a run for his money. >> did you ever see mr. gray in the van? stwloo i did not -- i still haven't seen freddie gray to this moment. last time i seen freddie gray was the day before they locked him up and did that stuff to him. >> did you tell the police that you heard him banging his head against the van? >> i told homicide that. i don't work for the police. i did not tell the police nothing stwroosh what do you think -- tell me what you heard. once you got in the van, what did you hear? >> i didn't hear nothing. it was a smooth ride straight to the police station. all i heard was a little banging for four seconds. you know what i mean? i'm thinking he is banging his head the whole time. now i know what was happening rsh they did something to him, and his body was wobbling back there. you know what i mean? he can't hurt himself back in those paddy wagon, you know? they don't strap us in there. >> tell me again what you have actually -- >> what i actually heard? i just heard a little banging,

you know? just little -- you know what i mean? boom, boom -- little banging. just little banging. i know it was just him back there because he was dying. when we got to the police station, they said he didn't have no pulse or nothing. they called his name. yeah. mr. gray. mr. fwra. he wasn't responsive. when i got in inside the police station, i was in the bullpen. the lady come in there like he got -- he must have came back. they talked he swallowed something. y'all beat that man before y'all brought him inside that van spshgs when he got inside that van, i didn't know he was in there. i knew freddie gray was in the van when i got to the police station and then they going to try -- >> no. okay. let me -- i just want to eep this focused on the four minutes. you were in the van four or five minutes with mr. gray. >> i was in the van approximately up to 20 minutes. 15, 20 minutes at the most. you know what i mean? they wait 30 to 35 minutes to get this man some medical attention because they want to cover their [ bleep ], and now

since they can't cover their [ bleep ] on that they're trying to use me as a fact to cover their [ bleep ]. i don't work with no police, right? yalt got to realize this. this is the same thing they're doing like they did back in the day with the bbp when they infiltrated with edge hoor. they infiltrated. they're doing the same [ bleep ] to me right now. i'm not a snitch. i'm [ bleep ] none of that for tv. i'm going to keep it 100, yo. we ain't around here doing none of that. these polices is -- they crooked, yo. >> when you got to the district, did you hear a conversation among the police officers? >> no. when i got to the police station, i heard them saying well, y'all, we gave him a run for his money. basically saying they did something to him, man. >> run for his money. what did you say that to mean? >> i took that to mean they did something to him. whatever. they can take it how they want to take it. people can take it how they want

to take it. when people say they give someone a run for their money they got over on them or did something to them physically or mentally that was wrong. you feel what i'm saying? that's what i took at it as. >> did you say you thought he was banging his head against the van. >> i told homicide he had -- i told homicide he had to be banging his head because i didn't know what was going on. he had to be banging husband head against the rim because i did not know the police beat him up or anything at that time. when we got to the mregs, i'm putting ath all the pieces to the puzzle together. they wrote me a citation and they didn't give it to me. >> joining me now jane miller wbal investigative reporter who conducted that interview. we have trumane lee live in west baltimore. this is really key, and i don't feel there is a lot going on here. you can read let's say, a lot of pathos into this gentleman essentially wanting to come forward. wronk it's too much to say to clear his name essentially as

there was an article that essentially says he said a thing he says he didn't say. what are the key things to take away from what this second prisoner is saying about that van ride? the key thing to take away is he couldn't have seen mr. gray. i asked him, i think we aired the whole thing. i asked him, did you hear him say anything? he didn't hear him say anything. we have reported that at that time when mr. allen is loaded on to the van at that stop that by that time according to our sources, mr. gray was unresponsive. a couple of minutes later when they get to the western district, he has no pulse. that doesn't come from just mr. allen, but also our own reporting. what we have reported is that paramedics were able to get a pulse back by the time they got him to shock trauma. obviously he was in a very bad shape. >> that's a key point. i'm sorry. i just want to stress that because obviously the timeline

is confusing. es. >> he was unresponsive when the paramedics finally got there because there is some confusion about the way the call went out, so the paramedics thought they were going to answer a call for a broken arm. not a nonbreathing person. that's a real significant difference because time is of the essence with this kind of swrr. this is the swrr that is similar to the christopher reeves injury with the severe broken neck spinal injury, and the whole key is to get care quickly. we believe now based on this disclosure of this additional stop of the van, that the injury most likely would have occurred in probably the first ten, 12 15 minutes of this ride which means it was another pretty substantial time before he actually got medical care. that's going to be the key to this case.

this case is all i know -- i know the video is there, and there's the video of what happened in the initial arrest. there's no video of what goz inside the van, but the information that was turned over today by the baltimore police department to the baltimore city prosecutor's office, the state's attorney's office, confirms what we have been reporting and that is that what happened to him happened according to the autopsy and the medical evidence in this case. it happened inside that police wagon. this is all about when did it happen? why did it happen? what police did not do to first of all secure him and also to take care of him after he was swrurd. also, i will add, that it also involves the somewhat controversial element of why they arrested him in the first place. all of that is in play but the autopsy does not have any evidence in it any information in it that he was injured during

that initial arrest. this is all about suffering that very, very severe swrr once inside the wagon. >> i wanted reiterate this point too. people -- that cell phone video of the initial arrest is very difficult to watch. it's wrovl been played a million times. people conclude the first time i saw it -- the first time i saw it and i have you on the air talking about it people say this guy can't walk there. he has already got an injury. something happened prior to this, and i just think it's really clear to highlight for folks, and this is also the w -- the abc affiliate in d.c. that from what we know of the autopsy, the injury sustained had to have steshlly been sustained in that van? >> correct. it needs that much energy. it needs that kind of force. that's correct. what you are seeing in that initial arrest it doesn't feel good to get arrested like that. that's standard procedure is for police to handcuff an individual, put them on the ground, put their knee in their

back. it's painful. it's done to control an individual but if you watch that cell phone video carefully, you can see at the end of it that he does get into that van under his own power. that's what it appears. >> right. all right. so finally i want to ask about this sort of mysterious stop that appeared today that we didn't know it happened yet and which was apparently only revealed by some other footage. what do you make of that? what should we make of it? >> if i were to -- the question i would have of the van driver at that stop is where did you make that stop? did you make that stop because you heard something in the back of the van that maybe indicated to you that something had gone wrong because the next thing he does is drive a little bit further and stop again and call for other officers to come and check on his prisoner and the police commanders have said at

that point there should have been a call for a medic, and there wasn't. i think that new stop that we're talking about, if i were -- if i were asking the right questions and i am in this case my question would be does that indicate that at that point that van driver knew that something was wrong. >> let me ask you this. are the details of this sort of filtering out -- are folks sort of focused on this today with this sort of the revelation of this stop? >> some people are and some people haven't said much about this. when you hear that young man say that, you know i don't work with the police. it speaks the volumes in which there's this big gap between police and the community. people in this community feel this has always been par for the

course, and so again, many people -- a number of people have heard about some of the details. others have been out here focused on marching all day long. even right now night is descending. the crowd is getting thicker. people are trickling in and out, and there is a certain vibe you're beginning to feel. i'm not sure what that means at this point but, you know it's starting to change a little bit. >> yeah. let me point out two things about that interview. last night when that washington post article was published, the reason given for anonymity was to protect the prisoner. they basically said you know all this is being done anonymously. we can't say who gave it to us what the prisoner's name is because we want to protect the prisoner because we fear for him. that article is pushed, and that prisoner comes forward voluntarily to say the safest thing for me is to put my face to this and explain what happened and give my account. that to me is fairly interesting. it's also interesting to me that he makes a distinction between

homicide and the police. he says i don't work with the police. i did tell this to homicide. i told homicide what i heard, which i thought ehs also was interesting. trumane lee is there in baltimore, and the attorney for the family of freddie gray will join me just ahead. also, when the media descends on a city sometimes residents of that city are not so thrilled, and when fox news's geraldo rivera arrives, all bets are off. that spectacle ahead. boys? stop less. go more. the passat tdi clean diesel with up to 814 hwy miles per tank. just one reason volkswagen is the #1 selling diesel car brand in america.

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for gentle cramp free relief of occasional constipation that works! mmm mmm live the regular life. >> i want you to realize there's two sides to the van. three people can fit on one side and three people can fit on the other. there's no space in there where a man could hurt himself intentionally by himself. before he got in that van he was hurt. when he got in that van, he was already deteriorated. i know this for a fact because when we got to that police station he was dead. >> all right. joining me jason downs, attorney for the family of freddie gray. that interview you just saw, the gentleman in the van with

freddie gray. mr. downs, your response -- your reaction to clarify about what he did and did not hear what he did and did not see in the van. >> i think it's important that we first start the discussion by distinguishing between facts and speculation and the fact is very clear. there's a metal divide ner the van, so this individual did not have the opportunity to see mr. gray. it's important to start with that fact, and it's also important to note that this gentleman just said clearly he heard what he is calling a light banging or -- and a little banging. we should also focus on the fact that you should not check your commonsense at the door just because the law is involved.

>> the final injury that mr. gray sustained would just require a tremt amount of force. the kind of force that would be as in christopher reeves being thrown off a house of representativeses or being associated with a car crash and not just -- want just something that physically one could do to one's self. we're going to wait for the medical records, wait for the autopsy reports to see the autopsy report to draw our own conclusions, but before we make any definite conclusions as to exactly how much force was necessary to sever his spinal cord we can say that he didn't sever his own spinal cord. >> today was the day that the police handed over whatever their investigation is to marilynn mosby. she's been in office around 100 days. she's never prosecuted a homicide case.

she also comes from a family of police officers. her husband is the councilman for the district in which freddie gray was a constituent. are you confident in her independence and her ability to bring appropriate action. >> what we to do is let ms. mosby. i can't draw conclusions as to the results of her investigation. frankly, the competency of her investigation until we are actually privy to that investigation. at this point all we know is that she is conducting an investigation, and we are hopeful that she conducts a thorough and an impartial investigation. >> are you in contact with our office? i don't mean in any improper way. i just mean in the way that often prosecutors will be in contact with the families of victims in crimes that they're

investigating. >> do you have an expectation of a timeline? we have already gone four to six weeks. that could take a week or ten months. what is your expectation tore a timely conclusion that the investigation and decision of criminal charges would be? >> well what we don't not is we don't want to rush to justice. we want accurate justice and truthful justice. we are hoping for a truthful and a thorough and frankly transparent investigation. that's what we're hopeful for. >> so that sounds to me like what you are saying is you are willing -- you and the family are willing to be patient and

you are confident that that patience will bear fruit in the integ of whatever investigation is conducted by this office. >> the gray family is certainly willing to be patient when it comes to a transparent investigation that we hope is going to be a thorough investigation. >> let me ask you this mr. downs. i'm not a lawyer myself but given the fact that commissioner bats has already admitted that the police in the van violated two protocols. they did not strap him in initially, which is a violation of protocol. they did not call for medical help soon enough. >> don't draw any concludes until we receive all of the information at this point. it is a step in the right direction that the police commissioner has acknowledged that there were mistakes made

and that the police department did not follow their own internal regulations, but that still doesn't answer the question as to how freddie gray's spinal cord was severed, and that's the question we want to know the answer to. >> jason downs, attorney for the freddie gray family thank you very much. all right. as the nation's criminal justice system takes center stage, presidential candidate hillary clinton has a special problem. how much -- how clearly will she call for a reversal to policy that is she and her husband embraced when he was president? that's next. were just as simple? thanks to angie's list now it is. start shopping online... ...from a list of top rated providers. visit angieslist.com today. keeping a billion customers a year flying means keeping seven billion transactions flowing. and when weather hits, it's data mayhem. but airlines running hp end-to-end solutions are always calm during a storm. so if your business deals with the unexpected

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>> msnbc national correspondent joye reid joins me now. as we look down joe, at images in philadelphia you have a bunch of folks behind you there in baltimore. we saw huge marches in new york last night. it does feel like what's happened this week and i think particularly that washington post article last night has this movement very keyed up again. i think we maybe don't have sound for joye who is having a hard time. >> hi, chris. so i can't quite hear you. i heard a little bit of what you are saying and i know you are talking about some of the protests happening across the country. i have to step aside so you can see these kids who.

>> aside from being adorable i think what they represent -- we talked to a guy earlier when we were at another location where the big protest happened today, and he made a really great point. he said what's happening right now is essentially the babies have gotten the attention of the country. that really kids young people really young people in some cases and these are some of the youngest that we have seen they've managed galvanize an entire 3450u6789 without a cohesive national leadership. to have it replicate in city after city after city every time that there is a death of a young blan black man or a death of a not so black man. somebody like eric garner who is mother was at the action network. to bring together this organized civil rights nooult movement we know, the national urban league the national action network, and to find a way to coordinate that. they have appropriated the no justice, no peace mantra of the sharpton era movement that was really begun in the late 198 0z

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>> we now have a political situation. we have billionaires that are literally able to buy elections and candidates. let's built kid ourselves. i believe that in a democracy what elections are about are serious debates over serious issues. not political gossip. not making campaigns into soap operas. we're in this race to win. >> there are now two official candidates if the race for the democratic presidential nomination with independent vermont senator bernie sanders, staunch liberal, making it

official today, promising a candidacy focused on reducing income inequality and child poverty, making higher education free and getting money out of politics. now, the issue that is suddenly front and center in the incipient democratic primary, in the wake of what's happened this week in baltimore is the reform of the criminal justice system. that's an issue on which the democratic party frankly has a lot to answer for. both hillary clinton and former maryland governor oh o'malley was expected to enter the race very soon are pushing for criminal justice reforms. critics have pointed out their records don't square with their new rhetoric. o'malley implemented a new tolerance policing policy that led to the aclu and the naacp sighing over a broad pat esh of abuses involving arrest made without probable cause. hillary clinton has touted the crime bill her husband signed adds president of 1994 which imposed tougher sentences, and more police were in the streets and provided more money for prisons. hillary clinton and her party

wanted to make a deaf intive break with the policies they helped create. bobby scott of virginia co-chaired the over criminalization task force in the last congressman, and congressman scott, you voted against the crime bill back in 1994, is that correct? >> i did. >> you were not -- you were not in the minority i think of the democratic party, but there were a lot of democrats who voted for it. the president pushed it very hard. why did you vote against it? >> well, i made the wrong choices. the choice that was made was to codify slogans and soupd bytes, but it just loaded up the prisons. if we made a choice to follow the evidence, nol the research we would have made different choices. mandatory minimum muchls. that is to say so many people

are in prison and you are wasting so much money, and so many people with felony records have trouble getting jobs that you are actually adding to crime rather than reducing crime. >> was it just politics and pander sng. >> i'm explaining why i voted against it. >> you know you were there. you haired what the arguments were. >> you're the democratic party. people think we're soft on these criminals and we kolgdz them. we get beat by the republicans who bang us over the head with law and order. we're going to show how tough we are. we're going to prove to america how tough we are sxwshgs that's what this bill is about. >> you have to ask to vote for it. three strikes you're out, for example, was the best vote getting slogan or soundbyte during the 1994 election cycle. number one, best vote getting slogan. said beat anything you can say about social security health care, or anything else. if you studied it, there's no

evidence that it does anything to reduce crime, and, yet, it loads up the prisons and gets to us a point where the incarceration rate is counter productive. if we followed the ed and if to reduce violent crime, have you to get young people out of the kraldz to prison pipeline and get them into the cradle to college and career pipeline. we know that if you make the investments early and get young people on the right track and keep them there, can you reduce crime and save money. it doesn't poll as well putting people in as the children's defense fund calls the cradle to prison pipeline. you get people and it poles well but doesn't make any sense. >> he called out harry reid and talked about rewe need to reassess. the democratic party had a huge majority in both houses and democratic president for two years, and there is not anything done to reform criminal justice.

is he right? >> i think a lot of people have figured out that we were wasting a lot of money and not reducing crime as we should. those who are in imprisoned get out. reform to make sure the sentences fit the crime and not the draconian sentences that often violent commonsense. also preventive approach to get young people in the right track and keep them on the right track.

>> we also saw the violent crime rate fall and continue to fall in 2011. okay. i mentioned my conversation about the realities and politics. during that conversation, he indicated that there was a 1994 crime bill that passed on the house by a voice vote not a detailed call vote that would have cemented every member's television. the final vote was a roll-call vote. it passed the house 235-195 with the vast majority of yes votes coming from the democrats. including the congressman. video for the crime bill. he teltz all in tonight that he was referring to the initial house volt on the crime bill which was passed by voice vote for being sent into a conference committee with senate negotiate oz.

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>> philadelphia protesters organized a rally and marched today. that continues at this hour. they're walking down the middle of the street. they've been at it for several hours, including a number of moments of very very tense standoff with philadelphia police. this action just one of many around the country in solidarity with baltimore as part of the growing nationwide movement against police brutality. yesterday in new york we saw 60 arrests and some other tense moments with police. there are calls for more demonstrations tomorrow both in new york here in new york and around the country. stay tuned. ll day gave me pain here. in my lower back but now, i step on this machine and get my number which matches my dr. scholl's custom fit orthotic inserts. now i get immediate relief from my foot pain. my lower back pain. find a machine at drscholls.com these days you may be hearing more about data breaches in the news. it's possible your personal information may be at risk. research shows that if your information is compromised due to a data breach you are 6 times more likely to become a victim of identity theft. now is the time to get protection.

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>> we're tired of it. it's never going to be no justice. the system was never made for justice for us. it was never made like that. it's never going to be. this is what it takes for all y'all to be here. this is what it takes? this right here? all of this for the destruction of what's happening for you all to get here. that's ridiculous.

>> talking to my colleague, joye reid, as we await the press conference from the police. weave witnessed the fall-out in communities across the country brought on by the high profile deaths of black men at the hands of police. we've witnessed the fallout in communities throughout the country brought on by high profile deaths of black men by the hands of police, each incident grabbing the attention of the national media. in baltimore i heard mixed reviews on the media coverage from the people living there. some were grateful for the national spotlight, some angry about the way their lives were being portrayed. enter geraldo rivera. tuesday night, watch, from about 20 feet away one protest er seemed particularly frustrated that we were there. >> we're not thugs. we're gathered here today. don't walk away once we start talking.

>> you're not talking, you're screaming. >> because you want to report that we're thugs and we're breaking this down. you have all these people from all these black folks. we're the ones that need protection, you're working for fox news. why you running away? >> he got geraldo on the run, y'all. he got geraldo on the run. >> because we are angry. but, listen, a black man can raise his voice and you don't have to be intimidated. >> let him talk, though! >> i want you and fox news to get out of baltimore city. you're not here reporting about the boarded up homes and the homeless people under mlk, you're not reporting about the poverty levels up and down the avenue. when we marched two years ago, you weren't here. you're here for the riots. you're not here for the death of

freddie gray. >> i don't know if you were there when that whole scene played out but it was an articulation of a sentiment that you and i heard in baltimore, we heard it also frankly there ferguson and have heard it other places, a feeling that the way that the national media has covered the story, and we are part of the national media, let me be clear, has essentially been to elevate the worst elements and not actually listen to what people are saying. >> it's such an uncomfortable dance, especially with us being here with a heightened sense here. there are moments -- there are moments late at night when everything thins out but us and here we are, it's just the media, it makes for an uncomfortable optic. but also coming up in journalism, we're not supposed to become part of the story. sometimes it seems we are becoming part of the story. what impact do the cameras have? a moment ago people coming up

behind us trying to get on the camera. how are we altering what's happening? we hear time and again so many people want us out here because they feel it's some sort of buffer or protection from the police. others are uncomfortable with us being here. >> one of the folks i was talking to on north and pennsylvania the morning after the fires were set and the looting, i think people were frustrated that that was the thing that brought attention, right, that there was this big march saturday night, 4,000 peaceful folks, there wasn't a lot of attention to that, the white house correspondents' dinner was that night. a bunch of people breaking property, throwing rocks at police, fires set and that was the thing that brought attention. there was real palpable resentment about that. >> there's one sign posted on a bus stop that said "if not for

last night, today wouldn't matter." it's a double-edged sword. there are so many people doing positive work in the community. there are young organizers who are figuring out how to teach nonviolent civil disobedience, people working with established community leaders. on the other hand you can't deny the other side of things. people are getting a little wild and out of control and we've seen that with the fires, with the clashes with the police. it's the double-edged sword. but without the optics of things burning and something going wrong, we wouldn't be here. that's part of the sad narrative that we play as media. we're waiting for something to hoop -- happen, that makes news. they don't know, they don't trust us if we're just trying to capture the moment or if we're here of our own motives. >> there's a lot of local

reporters who are doing amazing work and have been covering this before the national media descended. lotsz -- lots of national reporters trying to do good work. it is a big story. the press goes to where the story is. but there is also that aspect where it's like this desire for theatrics and this sense -- people aren't stupid. they understand when they're being manipulated. they understand when they're being exploited. they understand when the cameras have come in to basically say dance for us and they get that. like people -- it's not going over unnoticed the fine line between people doing reporting and doing that kind of thing. >> and when you feel it goes from minute to minute. just ten minutes ago somebody told me to go the "f" home, we don't want you, we want our home back. and the next minute someone said trymaine lee, msnbc. the crowd is starting to swell to the sidewalk.

the helicopters saying for your own safety get off the roadway. things are ramping up a bit. folks are now starting to stretch into the roadway. it's just the beginning maybe of a long night. who knows. >> stand by, trymaine lee, we'll be right back. boys? stop less. go more. the passat tdi clean diesel with up to 814 hwy miles per tank. just one reason volkswagen is the #1 selling diesel car brand in america. sunday dinners at my house... it's a full day for me, and i love it. but when i started having back pain my sister had to come help. i don't like asking for help. i took tylenol but i had to take six pills to get through the day. so my daughter brought over some aleve. it's just two pills, all day!

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hp helps businesses move on all the possibilities of today. and stay ready for everything that is still to come. i'll leave you tonight with this image. it's the baltimore police van, it's the kind baltimore police will place suspects into if there are arrests. people will be cuffed and put in a van like that.

it's that kind of van that freddie gray was in when he sustained the injury that killed him. you've got to think since he's died, hundreds of people being placed in vans like that, thinking to themselves that they're going to be the next freddie gray. that is "all in" for this evening. rachel maddow is next. >> thank you. tonight baltimore is planning to impose a citywide curfew. baltimore police said they plan to keep the curfew going through the weekend but tonight will be their attempt to enforce night three. curfew starts throughout the large city of baltimore at 10:00 p.m., goes through 5:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. the national guard is also in the streets for a third straight night supplementing baltimore police and supporting police that have been shipped in from surrounding communities and states. last night and the night before have seen some tension in the streets around the time of the