every president of the united states has to deal with both. and that's "hard ball" for now. tonight on "all in" -- >> we have to finally, once and for all, fix our immigration system. >> hillary clinton drops a policy bomb on the campaign trail. as another republican announces his candidacy by possibly breaking campaign finance law. >> if you want to give a million, please, do it. >> then separating facts from propaganda as isis claims credit for the texas attack. plus, as the new attorney general heads to maryland, joy reid reports on the two baltimores, the inner harbor versus the inner-city. and the predicament from mayweather/pacquiao. >> now sess tesla's latest announcement could change the world.

>> the reactor in the sky called the sun, okay? you don't have to do anything. it just works. it shows up every day. >> "all in" starts right now. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. something happens happened on the campaign trail just a few hours ago that could prove to be one of the most significant elements on the entire cycle. and we've got another entrant for the state of arkansas on the campaign trail as two politicians with deep ties to the state made news in important ways. mike huckabee declaring his second round for the white house and former first lady hillary clinton making a major policy announcement on a decisive 2016 issue. we begin in huckabee's hometown of hope, arkansas, where huckabee made his announcement and which happens to be the birthplace of none other than bill clinton. huckabee is hoping to be the choice of social conservatives,

though unlike in his 2008 presidential run when he won the iowa caucuses, huckabee faces stiffer competition for social conservative votes. rick santorum, ted cruise and others expecting to target the same set of republican voters. >> witness the slaughter of over 55 million babies in the name of choice and we are now threatening the foundation of religious liberty by criminalizing christianity and demanding that we abandon biblical principals of natural marriage. >> it wasn't all doom and gloom with the huckabee announcement. here is how the event kicked off. ♪ >> yes, tony orlando was in the house, although huckabee's rollout was not quite as smooth as tony orlando's stylings. huckabee said his campaign would be funded by small funders not

billionaires. >> rest assured, if you want to give a million, please, do it. but i know most of you can't. >> the supreme court has knocked down most of the limits on campaign financing, particularly through super pacs. and hillary clinton says her agency is unable to enforce the laws that do exist, it is illegal to hand a candidate for $1 million and for a candidate to solicit that much money which means, huckabee kicked off his campaign with a possible violation of campaign law. more on that in a bit. but first, to rancho high school in los angeles where hillary clinton joined a student round table this afternoon and made an important declaration sticking out a clear policy position regarding immigrants and president obama's action on immigration.

this puts her squarely in line with most hispanic voters on an issue that continues to cause major headaches for republicans. even jeb bush, probably the most amenable to immigration reform prefers to talk mostly about illegal status for undocumented immigrants and has only offered tentative support on any notion of a pathway to citizenship. >> make no mistake, today not a single republican candidate, announced or potential, is clearly and consistently supporting a path to citizenship, not one. when they talk about legal status, that is code for second class status. >> joining me now, nevada reporter john raulson and jess mcintosh. i was at rancho high school in 2008 at a caucus back in the early days of that campaign.

they were trying to run this caucus and didn't have the infrastructure in place. two things there 37 hillary clinton won a huge amount of hispanic voters in that caucus, but she was historically taking a pretty tough line. remember that driver's license moment where she waffled a about it on it, she talked about deporting anyone who committed a crime, no marion matter how minor. how big a step was this today for her in this campaign? >> well, i think it was pretty shocking, chris, and you laid it out pretty well. her campaign signaled this morning to the media that she would be going for a path to citizenship. that was obvious. she had to stake out that territory. but she sprinted way past that evolution today, chris, as you laid out. she didn't just support president obama's executive order. she said she'll put out her own executive orders, anything within the law that's necessary. she supported family reunification. she talked about the tension.

she said essentially everything that the photo typical dreamer or hispanic voter on this issue would want to hear. you know, we always complain about politicians not taking any positions, dancing around the issues. there was none of that today. she made it clear where she was and i think that she was baiting the republican candidate to come after her. call it amnesty, say it's a lawlessness. say whatever you want. she's going after that demographic. >> john makes a great point here, that this wasn't wishy washy. she has enunciated a bunch of positions that she has to defend or essentially they're on the record. mitch mcconnell announced he was going to do executive action as waving a red cape in front of the republican caucus, which i thought was an unintentionally -- metaphor. it seemed like that was what was happening here today politically as well as substantively. >> i think there's going to be a huge contrast between the parties because her position is

so clear and they're divided. she either want to build the wall as high as they possibly can or electrify it or whatever incredibly disturbing image they're using these days or they're in the rubio/jeb bush camp where they're essentially caught in this democrat late position. and whenever one party is playing the other party light, it goes badly for them. just take the position and hillary has just taken the position today. and i think we're going to see them run into trouble all throughout this race because they're not willing to go that far. and the ones who have staked out a very clear position is a completely untenable, really upsetting one for most americans. most americans understand that the country is built immigration and we don't feel -- we don't feel fear about immigration. it's not building a wall. that's just not going to work for most people. >> john, this also, to me, symbolizes to what jess is saying. where the center of the

democratic party is. this is -- this was, i think, a surprising announcement in that it went out past what this president has done, but this didn't come about, you know -- this is the work of ten years of organizing by the folks you were mentioning, immigration rights activists, dreamers, to push, really to push the democratic party on this issue. >> it's very true and it's emblem attic of what's happening in nevada when harry reid several cycles ago realized what the changing demographics, chris, the burgeoning hispanic population, maybe 20% of the electorate in nevada in november, 2016, and, you know, i don't want to look at the hillary clinton heart, whether she believes it or this is pure political pandering or a shift from the past. the republicans can say that all they want, chris, and it all may be true. but all that cohort of democratic voters cares about is where she is now. and think about how few swing states there are and the ones that have hispanic populations that could be pivotal, such as nevada, such as colorado, such

as florida. so whether or not she really believes this or has come to read polls better, it doesn't matter. this is a very, very significant move. as you pointed out, she can't come off of that later on because she was very firm in what she said. >> she also did a really smart thing by couching immigration policy and her agenda for immigration in a family issue. 75% of the immigrants in america are women and children. and now when i say mexican immigrants to you, the first thing you think of is probably a guy. you're probably thinking of somebody who is going to come in and work a job and take care of a family and maybe bring people over. 75% are women and children. and when she talks about this issue as a women and families issue, she is relating directly to the people who are living that experience. that's why it's so smart and that's why it's going to resinate for a really long time. >> john, jeb bush, who is sort

of i think widely seen as the sort of quote/unquote most moderate on immigrational, that term can be very hard to bend down. he put out a cinco de mayo announcement today in his pretty good spanish. it seems to me like jeb bush just pointed out he's caught, right, between understanding what the general elector wants, what the primary elector wants, and it seems to me he's going to try to get over in some ways with some ambiguity and his personal story, being married to a woman who is a immigrant. will that stand? >> it's very interesting. one week from tomorrow, jeb bush will be in nevada. he's just started stepping up in nevada. why? he's giving a speech to the clark county lincoln day dinner. the clark county republican party called for rights resignation, a lot of the ron paul people, all the of the tea party types. it's going to be fascinating to see what jeb bush says to that

group of people. this is a difficult needle for that group to thread and still preserve his viability in the general election. i think that speech is going to be a very emblem attic of what he has to do, be having interesting to see what he has to say. >> a great point. jon and jess, thank you both. >> thanks. in his presidential announcement today, mike huckabee said something you don't hear from a lot of republicans. >> if congress wants to take away someone's retirement, let them end their own congressional pensions, not your social security. >> huckabee's economic populism, at least on benefits for the elderly, flies in the face of the gop's donor orthodoxy and the business end of the party isn't taking it lying down. the party for growth arevalid ads on huck buy's air for governor. joining me now, rick wilson.

rick, it's great to have you on. this is -- this issue is -- >> hi, chris. >> this issue is fascinating to me. i have a theory about the republicans and social security/medicare. which is back in that budget fight in 2011 when the president was seeking a grand bargain, my theory is that john boehner knew full well that his -- the base of the republican party didn't want to see cuts to social security and didn't want to see cuts to medicare because the republican base doesn't actually want that. they're disproportionately elderly, they like their current benefits, and i feel like that is what mike huckabee is tapping into here. am i getting that wrong? >> well, look. i think this even the republican base voters who, you know, were social security and medicare are elements in their lives, recognize that the system is largely us sustainable as it's currently constructed. but i think what huckabee is doing is what he always does. he finds the sort of cheap route into the populist stands.

he devices the cheapest ticket he can into the shallowest enof the populism pool. he's trying to find this mythical niche in the republican party where this rah-rah arkansas style descended from the great arkansas, you know, stunt screamer politicians is going to work for him on a national stage. and it just doesn't quite connect because most of the republican voters who start looking at mike huckabee realize that this guy is not an economic conservative or a limited government conservative and those things are pretty conservative in republican primary politics. >> remember remember back in high school, you go to the libertarian home page and have that quad ran ideological test, right? >> where do you fall, right. >> i was a leftist at a young age. >> of course you are. >> the point is, there's this quadrant that you can argue is unrepresented in american politics, which is essentially

people that are socially conservative and want, you know -- opposed to gay marriage, you know, opposed to abortion, want sort of, you know, are fine with the state regulating personal behavior in certain ways but are economically populist. that seems to be the quadrant mike huckabee is aiming for, bit remains to be seen whether there are votes there or whether there are votes there but the donor class is so inamatha they won't let a candidate gets those votes. >> mike huckabee is going to collapse whether the donor class wants him to collapse or not. he is not with the mainstream primary electorate. they are the rising faction of the party right now who see the decline of the foreign policy hawks over the last few years. thief started to come back a little bit. but that era -- or that area of evangelical populism that huckabee would try to occupy is a narrower slice that's it's been in the past and even those

folks are informed by a strong limited government -- you know, set of limited government believes and huckabee is a guy -- they look back at the record. he raised tacks consistently. he talked about cutting taxes, but the net number was over $500 million, which in arkansas was real money back then. this is a guy who doesn't have a fundamental foundation in the thing that most republican voters care most about, which is fiscal restraint and limited government. >> yeah. it's interesting. his record in arkansas is fascinating on that score because he really -- >> it is. it is historically interesting. >> it is historically interesting. and he did a lot of things that liberals hated, he did a lot of things that liberals really liked. he increased spending in certain areas that folks did not anticipate and it's always striking to me how much constituency there is for that kind of thing. you're saying there's not much right now and i guess we'll see how this plays out. rick wilson, great pleasure to have you on. thanks a lot. >> thanks, chris. the claim to an isis connection in texas and just what the propaganda reveals,

next.

last night on the show, i'm pretty sure we made cable news history. it was during a segment about free speech as i hosted the legendary artist power designer art and francois. at one point during our discussion, you might have noticed what looked like a waft of smoke. it was, in fact, vapor. cigarette smoking was practically a requirement in the early days of tv, but this might have been the first vaping on live television. our show's executive producer was so excited about it last night, he personally captured and posted it again to the twitter feed. if you want to see that moment in its proper context, head over to our facebook page. we posted the entire fascinating interview with the ledgeendary mr. spiegelman. while you're there, we would love it if you like our page. a flourish of propaganda add add

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a flourish of propaganda add add we tell america that what is coming will be even bigger and more bitter and that you will see the soldiers of the islamic state do terrible things. an assault rifle was in gravityland, texas, where people were displaying characters of the prophet mohamed. an officer opened fire killing both suspects. it's unclear whether the two were, in fact, connected to isis

in any telling way. but more telling isis want to claim credit for an attack in which the suspects were successfully taken down. ayman, what do we know about the degree to which there's an operational link of any kind between these two men and isis? >> well, at this point, we certainly don't know a lot, to be quite honest with you, chris. the information does not seem at least what we have to indication an operational link between the organization and these two suspects. according to the maternal grandmother of nadir sofui, she said it is unlikely her son would have carried this out without being under the influence of someone else. the other suspect was on a terror watch list, was convicted of lying to federal authorities about his intent to travel overseas and join a terrorist organization. he was accused of doing that, but in reality, the judge

ultimately dismissed or said that the prosecution does not have enough evidence back in 2011 to substantiate the claim that he did, in fact, want to join a terrorist organization. right now, the investigation is going to focus on all kinds of pieces of evidence, including whether or not there was any kind of operational link with the group, including money transfers, training, affiliates within the united states that may have if a sill dated any of this attack. we understand from our own reporting that the guns purchased in this attack were purchased legally but we don't know the exact linkage between these two individuals if there was one. >> this gets to something i have covered before which is isis is a phenomenon. there's the actual -- there's the actual army that is actually fighting, holding ground, losing ground, taking ground, governing sometimes in horrific ways, often in horrific ways in iraq and syria. then there's isis as this global brand that various, you know,

jihaddys want to associate with around the world, whether or not it appears they're actually in communication with them. >> yeah. well, there's no doubt that isis has tremendous command and control over the territory that it actually controls inside syria and iraq. it definitely is the major force, if you will, on the ground and a lot of that territory. when it comes to operational or cells, if you will, that have been operating perhaps in the west, to this date, there really is not strong evidence to suggest that isis, as an organization, was behind any of these attacks that we've seen in western countries on an operational level, which means that those who carries out those attacks were trained by the organization, were provided weapons, were provided any logistical support. what seems to be the pattern, and certainly this is in isis's own words, is that they want to inspire people in the west to carry out attacks. that is a real threat. and that's the major cause of concern for western officials.

these lone wolf kind of attacks that could be sitting anywhere in the western world and interacting and engaging with followers anywhere in the world and feeling that they now want to be inspired by the organization and carry out those attacks. so there is this propaganda value of something like what we saw in gramland, what we saw in "charlie hebdo" and elsewhere. it turns around and says we are capable of inspiring others to carry out these types of attack and that is the real challenge for law enforcement officials to try and prevent those individuals. from being inspired of carries out attacks that could be deadly and just as terrorizing. >> at one level, they're logistically sophisticated until their scale and scope is reduced. but also, they're harder to sniff out because presumably you have one or two people involved in them and that makes it more difficult for authorities to catch them.

>> yeah. there's no doubt about it. that is what, when we speak to law enforcement officials, they can'tly tell you they're always concerned about that one individual or those individuals that operate in pairs, perhaps like the boston marathon bombing who can become radicalized, who can learn how to carry out or create deadly devices on the internet and carry them out in contained environments that have a much larger impact in terms of the fear factor and in terms of the casualties. so that is a major challenge for law enforcement officials. they have been successful in preventing several people, dozens of people from leaving the united states, going to isis controlled territory, acquiring battlefield skill sets, but the challenges for law enforcement is that terrorists have to be successful one time only and not successful all the time. that is what we are seeing with these lone wolf type of attacks. their impact sometimes is psychologically much greater than what they're capable of carrying out logistically and from a killing perspective, but nonetheless just as disastrous. >> thank you very much.

still ahead, two very different views of baltimore. >> if you're trying to build, build from everywhere. don't just build suburban areas. don't just build in the hub or the county. builds it in the city where the urban people are out. >> neighborhoods of baltimore where money is and is not being invested, that's ahead.

all right. you may recall, we did a segment called quick three to showcase three things on the internet each day.

on may 10th, 2013, the number three item was this. dude, this. this is referring to the ryan gosling mean to end all ryan gosling mean, surpassing all the hey girls. paul gosling, remember this? this is ryan gosling eating cereals. these are six-second looping videos and the title just about explains it all. just a spoonful of cereals slowly inching thwart gosling's beautiful face on a television screen. the idea came to him while watching the film drive and eating cereal. a simple concept but the results are simply amazing. >> yes, it was ryan gosling won't eat his cereal. that was simply put a sensation. its creator scottish film measure ryan mchenry. he said the idea came to him very naturally, quoting mchenry. i was watching drive and eating

cereal one day and it looked like ryan gosling was staring at my cereal. gosling referred to it in interviews. we were so fond of it, i put out my own version. but on monday, ryan mchenry died way too young from bone cancer. he was 27 years old. in honor of him, people began taking to twitter. we should all eat a bowl of ceiling in honor of ryan mchenry. ryan gosling paid tribute by eating his very own ceiling stating, quote, my heart goes out to all his family and friends. i feel lucky to have been part of his life in some way. ryan gosling still not eating his cereal, we hope he will be pleased. >> so we can keep feeding you cereal? >> all the time.

>> i thought it was important that i come here also to hear from people who were on the ground, people who were in this city and, frankly, people who love this city. as we all know, baltimore has come to symbolize a lot of the issues involving police and community mistrust that plagues so many of our cities. >> one week into her new role as attorney general, loretta lynch traveled to baltimore where she met with city officials, community groups and police officers. she sat down with the family of freddie gray, the man whose death triggered unrest throughout the city. last month, the justice department launched a civil rights investigation into the 25-year-old's death in police custody and the national spotlight on baltimore has only highlighted what residents have known for decades, it's a city struggle, vast racial and economic inequalities. msnbc national correspondent joy reid explains. >> the story of baltimore is a tale of two stark economic

realities. since the 1980s, the city's gleaming inner harbor area has benefited from massive investment, creating an area for tourists and local residents alike. but there's another baltimore, the battler more where freddie gray lived and died. that baltimore asks how can a city that affords that let this go on? on the streets and in the barber shops of west baltimore, residents knew this neighborhood was in decline long before freddie gray died. >> this city been condemned. they didn't just board these places you up. these places been boarded up, man. >> add to that the sentiment and the investments in the inner harbor take away from investments in the urban centers where one-third of the residential buildings are abandon. >> if you're trying to build, build from everywhere. don't just built suburban areas or just inner hub, build inner-city, like where the urban people are at.

>> what we saw during the riots was symptoms. when we look at the police brutality and excessive force, there's symptoms of a bigger problem of investment that goes downtown but not uptown. >> but some community activists understand the importance of the inner harbor and are working towards a day when the two neighborhoods become one. >> we need all the neighborhoods here, we need the inner harbor neighborhood, the neighborhoods up here and we all work together as one ecosystem. the more we can get neighborhoods to feel like this, it will stop being a tale of two cities. >> that was msnbc's national correspondent live from baltimore. this is something that, when i was there last week, it was amazing to me how often people wanted to talk about not even with me asking about the investments in the inner harbor, about the rejuvenation in certain areas and not in others. what do folks say about it?

>> well, i know, absolutely. i heard it, as well. and people essentially looking at the inner harbor, the treasure in this community goes to the county, goes downtown, it goes to the harbor. but, you know, one of the challenges in seema ire and she talked about really the difficult issue of even trying to rebuild a place like west baltimore. first, you'd have to figure out who the owners of those abandon buildings are, finding the chain of custody of that property would be the first step in even attempting to rebuild that area whereas obviously the inner harbor is owned by the city, owned by the county. so you have issues of just who owns the property. you then have this issue of who would invest in the property? how would you do it in a way that doesn't completely gentrify the neighborhood and price out the people who are there. then you have the issue of the west baltimore and east baltimore sectors are residential. these are purely residential areas with some retail, things like the cvs. so you have to figure out a different kind of development.

so it's kind of apples and oranges, but people here definitely look at that harbor and they look at these glittering brand new stores and they say what about us? >> here is a map. this is children living below the poverty line in 2009 and 2013. you can see how those dark purple presents are incredibly high levels of child poverty. we're talking over half of children living in poverty in these neighborhoods. and, joy, this is -- the neighborhoods in -- with that neighborhood in winchester where freddie gray was, that's as poor as a neighborhood in america gets, basically. >> yeah, no, absolutely. and you have the situations where you have over 4 in 10 people taking more than 30 minutes to get to work every day. .i'm not talking about in a car. you're talking about people who are essentially cut off from the lifelines of the city so even if they could get a job interview, how would they get there? we were there one day when people said they had been waiting over an hour for the bus that would take them from east and is west to downtown.

you have a train stop at the west baltimore area where the cvs is that doesn't go all over the city. it will only take you so far. so you have fundamental issues of being able to move people where the jobs are. you have a high percentage of people in that community who are coming back from incarceration so they can't get even an interview, let alone a job. the problems are so systemic, it's hard to know where to begin. >> and this is not limited to baltimore. i mean, the model that baltimore has pursued of urban development has been a model a lot of places have pursued with big stadiums, downtown rejuvenation, hope for a college educated people to come to the metro universities and colleges and stick around after they graduate and that there are restaurants and services and start ups that they create. but it's unclear that that model has done much for very poor neighborhoods, whether it's the bronx where i grew up or west baltimore. >> yeah, no, absolutely.

whether it's brooklyn, detroit, all of these communities have one thing in common, which is that you have a cache of poor people, essentially, oftentimes people of color or african-american who live downtown. so in the early 20s century, you stash all the poor people, you stash all the african-americans downtown. but now that's the most desirable area. what do you do with the people who are already there and how do you redevelop an area where there's no obvious economic benefit to the investors, whether that is private investors or the taxpayer? so when you don't have an obvious return on investment, it's difficult to figure it out. and then, again, you go into these areas where you see these rows and rows of boarded up houses. that didn't happen in any riot. that was already like that. you can't even figure out who owns it. a lot of them are absentee landlords who are long gone. the city would have to seize it through eminent domain which is its own set of problems. there's a lot of issues here the city has to grapple with. >> the point, people need jobs. fundamentally, if you don't have jobs for people, you're going to

have a lot of poor folks. joy reid, great reporting at always, thank you. still ahead, a look at the technology that allows thousands of people to watch the highly anticipated and highly expensive pacquiao/mayweather fight for free. when a moment spontaneously turns romantic why pause to take a pill? and why stop what you're doing to find a bathroom? with cialis for daily use, you don't have to plan around either. it's the only daily tablet approved to treat erectile dysfunction so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. plus cialis treats the frustrating urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain as it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away

for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision or any symptoms of an allergic reaction stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. why pause the moment? ask your doctor about cialis for daily use. for a free 30-tablet trial go to cialis.com topping news for the week is a retired talking doll. it speaks by way of a wax cylinder recording which was operated with a crank on the doll's back. it happened to represent the earliest known recordings anywhere of women made in the u.s. until recently, they were silent because there wasn't a safe reliable way to play the recordings without damaging the cylinders. enter technology. the government lab made a way to play the recordings by using microscopes to create incredibly

detailed images of the grooves and software to digitize the recordings. and the results? nightmare rules. >> now i lay me down to sleep. i play the lord my soul to keep. if i should die before i wake, i pray the lord my soul to take. amen. >> to be fair to the doll's contemporary, this window into early sound recording is not just creepy in retrospect. it was not the tickle me elmo of its day. children found the dolls, i'm quoting here, more scary than cuddly. >> i'm not going to stop the

>> i'm not going to stop the wheel. i'm going to break the wheel. >> when the new season of "game red to much

fanfare a couple of weeks ago, it wasn't all celebration for hbo. users of a live streaming app users of a live streaming app periscope were apparently using it to broadcast the show illegally, prompting hbo to criticize the app in public and issue takedown notices for the pirated streams. that was just the first volley in a larger battle over piracy and mobile technology. during saturday's much hyped boxing match between floyd mayweather and manny pacquiao, thousand thousands of people tuned into the grainy low quality streams on periscope instead of shelling out $100 to watch it on pay per view. it was so popular that after the fight was over, twitter's ceo dick costello tweeted, and the winner is? periscope. the broadcasters were somewhat less pleased with the performance. some are threatening legal action.

periscope is maintaining it fully respects intellectual property rights. the company received 66 takedown requests from copyright holders and 30 were disabled. the others had stopped streaming or were no longer available. that may not be enough to satisfy entertainment companies like hbo which favors a more preemptive approach. something periscope said he would be open to. >> there are a lot of tools that should exist and can exist with a lot of time and development to handle this stuff in realtime and we're generally interested in working with partners on figuring that out. it's new territory, right? the fact that i can just take my phone right now and stream changes the landscape of how a process like that has been done in the past. >> periscope is changing the way we watch tv, one company is changing the way we power or homes, cars around the world. why we are finally on the

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power. >> tesla's ceo elon musk might be the most ambitious businessman of our age. i think he certainly is. he pioneered a zero emissions car and now he's tackling solar power taking on the biggest obstacle of taking on solar power in this country. when it's nighttime or cloudy out, the panels aren't collecting energy. but musk has a solution, the tesla powerball, a unit that saves up the energy and saysist for a rainey day. it can only save 10 kilowatt hours. according to tesla, your refrigerator alone eats about that much per day, but appears to be something towards making solar an alternative. it's set to ship this summer and the 10 kilowatt model goes for the relatively affordable price of $3,500 plus the cost open installation.

he revealed a commercial selection of the battery called the power pack which is designed to be infinitely available. >> you can transition the united states with 900 million, you can transition the world. you can basically make all electricity generation in the world renewable. and primarily solar. >> joining me now, david roberts and tech consultant adviser shelly palmer. david, let me start with you. you just wrote this piece about solar being essentially inevitable. how big was -- how big a problem is the battery problem? how far did musk get with this announcement? >> well, i think mostly what he did with the announcement is open people's minds to the possibility. i mean, currently, batteries are still too big and bulky and hold too little power to make solar dominant, more than sort of an add-on to other forms of power.

but, you know, technology continues to develop, solar cells are going to get smaller and more efficient and batteries, also, and other forms of energy storage are going to get smaller and smaller. eventually, it won't be some big thing stuck on your wall. it will be integrated into your home and the solar cells, too, will be integrated into your home. the home themselves, the buildings themselves will become harvesters and energizers of storer unobtrusively and energy. >> the problem is sort of a consumer option, right? what we've seen right now is solar is going through this tremendous revolution because the price has just dropped in this way that we -- totally unprecedented, right? but there's this viral effect. there's studies out that say people that see, have neighbors with solar panels are more likely to get solar panels. >> i think this is about a mission and a vision, right? if you are part of this idea that you want to live a

sustainable life, but tesla car is a lifestyle and the power wall is a lifestyle choice. it is too expensive, but you know what's interesting? it's right on the cusp of being financially sensible. it's not there, it's right on the cusp. but today, as i love to say, is the slowest rate of technological change you will ever experience for the rest of your life. so it's going to get there. but right this minute, truly, there's this whole total continuous output where you literally can't get enough electricity out of this thing to run your house. forget about that. you will be able to do it. and you're right, it is slightly viral, but it's a lifestyle choice. >> david, here is the argument you made in the piece. hammer home why solar is so distinct from everything else. why it's not like any other kind of power. >> sure. every other form of commercial electricity generation works basically the same way. it translates mechanical force into electrical current by spinning a turbine.

so everything else, coal, natural gas, nuclear, wind, hydro, they all are about spinning turbines. solar pv is the only commercial form of electricity that creates electricity directly from sunlight. that means without moving parts, which reduces the upkeep and operational costs, and it's the only form of power that can eventually be scaled down to virtually anyside size. i mean, musk emphasized that it can be scaled up, but it can be scaled down theoretically to a square inch. so you can imagine solar becoming ubiquitous in a way. >> what's really important here is not can you power an american household or use this in lieu of a backup generator, if you think about this in nations where there are no power grids, this takes on a new sort of possible -- set of possibilities where you've got -- look, there are cheap batteries and there are cheaper batteries. this is the cheapest battery that does what it does that we've seen in a while.

my suspicious is once the giga factory is put up, this is going to become affordable to the point where it makes sense. >> and the giga factor which is set to become to nevada, they're going to make these things to make batteries. david, i had someone tell me that they actually thought tesla was really tesla really is a battery factories. the thick that they understood people are going to need in the future is batteries. they had to fix the engineering the battery problem to make their car, but the car in some ways is ancillary. it's actually the battery that is the business. >> that's right. the best way to look at electric cars, in some sense, is as portable forms of electricity storage. you can imagine a future where all these electric carries are hooked up to the grid, so grid operators, when they need extra power can draw power from all these distributing cars. when they don't need power can return power to those batteries. so it becomes a distributed form of storage.

>> yeah. and you wonder, also, how much -- how much the sort of effect of someone setting targets the way musk has impacts competitors, right? >> it's going to be really important because you've got a battery industry. look, we have a very fast technological advancement curve. the two slowest things, literally, have been battery technology. look at your cell phones, look at your power ever where. >> the biggest fight. >> you want to run an airport, charge, charge, charge, everybody is trying to charge their phone. and, of course, solar cells, because if you had 100% absorbed material, it would be invisible and the greatest solar cell ever. we're not there yet. you have to come along, i love the fact that elon musk is the tony stark of our age. >> that presenting. >> thank you both. >> that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddow show start now.

>> nerdly uncomfortable wasn't a segue to me, was it? >> no. nerdly self-assured and deeply comfortable. >> obviously. >> that's what i'm talking about. >> thanks, man. appreciate it. thank you for joining us this hour. the first time a presidential debates was televised was 1960. that 1960 debate is probably still the most famous american presidential debate of all times. right? thanks mostly to the fact that richard nixon was famously -- in that debate and, therefore, a little shifty looking and john f. kennedy looked cool, calm and collected under a layer of powder foundation. that first debate was filmed in the chicago studios of cbs, but it was a join production and it was jointly broadcast by all the tv networks at the time. that was to say landmark political moment in our country. 70 million americans watched