tv NOW With Alex Wagner MSNBC June 23, 2015 1:00pm-2:01pm PDT
>> breaking news for the man hunt of two escaped prisoners. adam, what can you tell us about what's happening right now? >> good afternoon alex. there was an urgent reaction by numerous law enforcement agencies to mountain view. it is a location about 2 miles from alls head. and -- owls head. that is where they had their headquarters set up. two choppers up in the air. hundreds of officers from all different agencies racing to the scene. we have seen this before but we haven't seen it with this kind of urgency. now a couple of them -- this is still an act of investigation but it is not a good sign when you start to see a few of the state police vehicles pulling
out. it is a lake area a camping ground. hunting cabins here. other homes where people live here year round. a bit off the beaten path in the adirondack mountains but again it was a situation with numerous law enforcement agencies responding at speed. now it seems to have a settled down. and a couple of the law enforcement officials have started to leave the area. again not a good sign. we'll stay here and keep you posted. >> adam, just to be clear this is near the sight of the cabin where the two escaped prisoners were camping out, is that right? >> that is correct. and i didn't mention earlier. they came here based on a tip. we don't know if it was a sighting or if maybe something in a cabin was amiss that indicated someone had been in the cabin. al we know is they responded to the tip and responded with great
urgency, choppers, numerous vehicles, military vehicles and nothing yet. a few of them are leaving and that is not a good sign when they start to leave the area. >> brian let me ask you a question just in terms of your background and you have seen cases like this or in this genre. is it likely two convicted killers would stay anywhere near the site of a break in where they left dna samples and were presumably swarming the area. >> yes. that is rugged terrain. one of these fellows may not even have shoes. they might be exhausted. so this is not like hopping on the subway and getting up to 57th street. this is really hard if you are on the run and what they may with looking for is more cover than distance. more cover than distance. because we now have an area where we can do a concentric
circle around make a grid pattern and establish a perimeter. and we have all kinds of resources deployed there. aerial with regard to helicopters, infrared blood hounds. as well as folks on the ground. and it is highly conceivable they may very well still be in the immediate area. because remember they are on foot. and rugged terrain and they have been subject at least partially to the elements when they weren't in the cabin. >> we'll be going back to adam rece with updates through the hour. lyle mitchell, the husband of the prison worker who allegedly supplied the prisoners with tools. gave his interview today with matt lauer. he has not been charged with a crime and his lawyer says he has cooperated fully. one of the inmates richard matt threatened to kill him if his wife didn't follow through with a getaway plan. and also reports his wife had a sexual relationship with mr. matt. >> there have been reports that
your wife fell in love with one of these inmates richard matt. >> she didn't know if i loved her anymore she said. and they give her a little attention. and it went too far. she said he tried to kiss her a couple of times and she said no. and she said that's when he started threatening her a little bit on things. >> one of the other head lines that came out was that your wife joist had had a sexual relationship with one or both of these relationships. >> absolutely not. >> did you ask her -- >> absolutely. she swore on her son and i never ever had sex with them. >> and joining me now is vivian ye who has been covering the prison break for the "new york times." let me go to the question of psychology here. joyce mitchell's husband seems resolute in that she believes she did not have any sexual relationings with these two men.
when you heard his account what was your assessment. >> my assessment was i felt really sorry for him and i think he's wrong. >> why do you think that? >> there is a dysfunction with people who go after those who are bad actors. there is kind of a fantdasy about falling for a bad actor, getting excitement and having the routine of one's day dissipated by some bad boy. and i think what happened is some catalyst came out, where she woke up and said this is not a great idea. i don't know what that catalyst was. but nevertheless it sounds to me that there was some kind of relationship of a prurient nature going on and additionally that really compromised security at this prison. and i think it is a manifold compromise because i think it is a lot further than her. >> relationship of a prurient nature as he says. you have been reporting on the
security lapses here. what was it like in these honor blocks. >> i think it is a point to make that had the prison followed the policies in place, the honor block, the privilege afforded to the inmates is actually fine. there are privileges like being able to cook inside being able to cook ingredients from the commissary for the other inmates. being able to wear tee shirts instead of prison uniforms. so there was a little more relaxed free atmosphere in the the block. all that said it seems as if those privileges would be completely fine if other policies like manning the tower that overlooks the manhole or being able to shine flashlights in inmate's faces during nighttime bed checks if those had been followed. >> who monitors the relationship with those tasks between overseeing prisoners and the prisoners themselves. one would assume if there are all these safeguards for the infrastructure of the prison there would be some safeguards for the interprison relationships that could develop
and compromise security. >> absolutely and you would think there would be stronger safeguards against that. when we spoke to corrections officers and civilian employees they all said we were trained to be polite even friendly but not to fraternize with the inmates. so certainly they are told not to do anything like that. but obviously in a prison where, you know, the guards and the civilian employees are essentially living with these men day in and day out it is like a village within a village essentially. so these are all citizens of the same prison i guess you could say. and so i think that is where you get a little bit of the familiarity beginning to breed. we have reports about one of the inmates giving joyce mitchell paints of her children she then gave to her husband and so on. and aempt apparently would give these paints to other employees as well. so clearly a relationship there. >> relationships have been established. >> right. even if there is supposed to be a separation. >> and the fostering of
relationships inside prisons happens frequently does it not? >> oh yes. we've seen examples of this. in maryland where numerous female prison guards were impregnated by members of a notorious criminal syndicate for instance. and in oklahoma the wife of a warden ran off with a prisoner. so people can be the weakest link. and the reporter hit important points. you must have firm rule protocols. and while there are informal relationship that can keep everything stable. but nevertheless there has to be some kind of following of protocol. executive leadership making sure the protocols are enforced and there has to be follow-up to make sure that these rules are being adhered to my middle level management. >> yeah but one wonders vivian -- and i'm all for the blishtd of protocol. but basic protocol wasn't -- the
fact there were no guards in the prison towers over night seems like a major, major security flaw. >> our report found there was no one thing that allowed this but a cascade of security failures. not being able to shine the flashlights into the inmates faces so that they could have easily put a dummy in the bed. not being able to walk on the cat walk that goes behind the prisoner cells where they were cutting through the back of their cells that leads onto the cat walk. the fact that guards were no longer allowed to walk back there is a big oversight. >> guards were actually in the ante chamber, if you will behind the cell walls. at one point listening into the inmates conversations. that is how seriously security precautions were taken at one point. >> at one point they were also inspecting the tunnels where the inmates cut through and came out of. at one point they were inspecting these quarterly or
more often. but one corrections officer we spoke to said they hadn't been inspected since october. so these little things that added up. and whose to say they couldn't have gotten out even with these security measures in place. but it does seem like it would have made it a lot harder. >> may i interject. excellent points. yes there was a cascade of failures failures. but there was some kind of leadership and implementation failure that allowed these to add up. this was not accidental. there was a lax atmosphere that allowed these manifold failures to accumulate into this big break. >> and clearly we are seeing the resultes of all of that. a ongoing situation. adam, brian and vivian thanks for a your time. we'll continue to follow the breaking news out of upstate new york. police responding to the search. when we come back after the break, south carolina lawmakers
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south carolina just got one step closer to lowering its confederate flag. this afternoon state legislators voted overwhelmingly. this happened as hundreds gathered at the capitol urging the legislature to take it down immediately. it is still unclear whether there are enough votes to remove the flag but the movement has stretched far beyond south carolina's borders. in mississippi a key republican lawmaker is calling for the state flag to be changed. in virginia the governor will
faze out state license plates with the confederate flag. five of the nations largest retailers have all moved to ban flag merchandise from their stores. and in tennessee calling for removal of the confederate monument monuments. and the and conversations about the robert e. limonee monument. joining me now is the chairman of the republican party in south carolina, matt moore. thanks for joining me on a big day for the state. do you think the votes are there to remove the flag from the state capitol grounds? >> first alex i want to playpay respect to the nine lost last week that their tragic deaths have spurred the discussion here in south carolina about the role of the flag. i do believe the votes are
there. overwhelming majorities voting to amend the budget resolution that allows this debate to take place in the coming weeks and months. so i'm confident we will get this done in the coming days. >> do you think this is a prompting a wholesale debate over the monuments to the confederacy in your state? >> well the focus here in south carolina is on the flag. as we know the flag didn't cause this killer in charleston to do what he did. but he certainly identified with it strongly. and that is the true desecration of this flag that someone has twisted its meaning. many have twisted its meaning over the years. and while we can't change our past we can heal our future here in south carolina. so that's been our main focus. >> matt what part of its meaning do you feel has been twisted? >> well, you know many see this from a perspective of heritage here in south carolina and across the country. my own ancestors fought in the
civil war. many ancestors here. where lives were lost fighting in the civil war. but what's been twisted is the hate. the flag should not represent hate. no flag should represent hate that flies in our state. and dylann roof identified strongly with this flag. and i've had conversations with many in both parties and what i hear very frequently from african americans and many of our friends in south carolina is the flag does cause deep division. i think we can find better ways to project our heritage than the flag. >> other than the flag representing hate what in your mind did the confederacy represent? >> obviously there are many debates going on right now in south carolina about the meaning of the flag. -- >> i'm -- i guess i'm asking because we're now talking about robert e. lee and james calhoun or john calhoun. what do you think the confederacy represents? >> well it certainly represented
later on oppression of african americans, that slavery was an awful institution, and jim crow was an awful institution. we can't change those things but we can have a great positive debate at the role of the symbols in our state and take down this flag. >> matt moore, thanks so much for your time. >> thank you. >> joining me now is salon's editor at and communication's director for emily's list and staff writer for slate. jamel, let me start with you. we talked about this yesterday. nikki haley flanked by bipartisan legislators making a decision i think is long over due. it has given rise to a conversation about slavery, which i think is both shocking and high time. what has been your reaction to
the last 424 hours? >> it really has been remarkable. there have been attempts to remove state flagoufve flags from buildings in other states where they have typically failed. i think the killings last week really shocked a lot of white southerners to be frank into action and to seeing the symbols aren't actually innocuous. and that they -- i think they represent a reprehensible and hateful period in our history. and that people who are reprehensible and hateful draw inspiration from them. >> yeah. and i was going to say it has been the republican party in particular has undergone swift, sort of reversal as it comes to the flag and whether it has a place in national spaces. and federal spaces and state spaces and public spaces. it is amazing.
and . >> it is amazing and i don't want to down play. it is really an important moment in our history that we are owning up north and south to what the war was about. and that even democrats -- even democrats i'm sad to say tried to participate in this fiction that for some people the flag represents heritage. and if there is any way to look at the civil war as anything other than being about slavery. there there rece really been a pandering to that point of view. and i think the killings did shock america and white southerners into seeing that delusion can't stand. because white supremacy becomes this easy refuge for a mixed up kid like dylann roof. he can turn all of his anger into the racism. just like he can pick up a gun, he can pick up race. and this is something we've got to stop. >> i guess i worry because this is happening so fast that there will inevitably be a backlash jess. and you already have some
confederate rights groups southern rights groups calling this a cultural genocide of sorts. >> i think that is a poor choice of words given what the confederate symbols taend to stand for. i'm worried less about the backlash because --. what i'm worried about is that we will turn all of our focus to the symbols and less on what are the effects of this evil institution of slavery we're still dealing with as the country. and when hillary clinton talked about in her speech about everything from the income inequality faced by african americans to the higher rates of asthma deaths to the african american kids and to schools. we have real problems that go beyond the symbol we are very entrenched in as the country. and i want to make sure we don't have a swollic debate.
i want to deal with them. >> the debate is coming in the middle -- the beginning phase, if you will. the first trimester of the 2016 presidential campaign. and like it or not it will become at least a litmus test where you stand on the flag. rand paul already said today he thought it should be removed and others expressing their opinions. >> it is almost a domino not a litmus test. hard pressed to find anybody. if lindsey graham the senator from o'clock south carolina says this is a good idea, it's hard to imagine push back against it. haley took it own and did something brave for her politics but also did a huge favor for her party and took some of the pressure off. symbolism is important and i agree there are real problems that flow from that legacy that are extremely important.
but symbolism is also very important in politics. and to watch one group of americans move occupy a strongly held view and acknowledge it causes pain to a different group of americans is a powerful thing. and i think it means something. >> does this lead to a sort of broader discussion about where we are on race and on color and on disparity in this country? do you think there are legs? -- obviously there are legs do it. do you think there is follow through to an actual debate over legislation? >> i'm not sure if all of those things you have to make happen. but i do think that this shift on the flag and as you mentioned earlier, the begins of a shift on monuments which is actually in some ways even more significant. you have in charleston virginia, a big monument to robert e. lee. that isn't just a matter of taking it down. that is a lot of money involved
in altering it or changing it. and if we're beginning to move towards a conversation about these physical monuments, then i do think that opens up the space for a broader conversation about that material conditions face back in americans. when you talk about the monuments and flags it leads naturally to asking how come in a place like charleston so many african americans live below the poverty line. how come in a place like virginia you have millions of people uncovered by the medicaid expansion and why are people opposing the medicaid expansion for fellow residents? >> to the question of monuments and not just the symbols but the ways in which this country celebrates the confederacy, this debate over the flag inevitably leads you to what does the confederacy mean to you and what is the legacy? which is an almost unanswerable question for conservatives at this point. for those supporting the legacy
of the confederacy. >> right. it is amazing. it is shocking to some of us that we need to debate a about the civil war or a debate about slavery. but we apparently do. so this is a good thing. i want to agree with what jamel jamelle said though. selma led to the voting rights act five months later. if we applaud and stop at the charleston massacre leads merely to doing something 50 years late, then we can't be satisfied with that. >> the argument you are going to get from republicans is expanding medicaid has nothing to do with the confederate flag. voting rights -- >> rights act -- >> we have had legislative solutions to the problem of segregation. so when there are no problems like that left to solve it leaves us thinking everything is okay but of course we are
suggesting that it is not and there is a legacy to that separation. nick hillary clinton just said moments ago at an event we can't hide from hard truths on race. we have own them and change them. the flag shouldn't fly there or anywhere. we know that hillary clinton has been speaking directly to young people and people of color. it's been a major plank. this would seem to be a good issue for her to own. and i wonder what you think about the sort of froserocity with which she'll take it up. >> i don't think the flag will last very long as an issue for her campaign. the other issues have a lot more power. again, having the flag taken down is not going to solve any of the social problems that some would argue are a legacy of
reconstruction and jim crow and so forth. and those issues are the power of her campaign are what appeals to what she wants to get to young voters and people of color. i think over the course of the campaign we'll see a lot more about that. >> she now has a central locus. >> symbols are important as i said. >> good to see you guys. thanks for your time. coming up. president obama just got a lot of help from republicans on capitol hill. i'll explain that's next. it's time to bid farewell... to this booking incredible island resort. and it's incredible island staff. (father:) i can't imagine life without them. this is not goodbye. ♪ yes, it is. ♪ (father:) no, it isn't... ♪ ok, i guess it's not. ♪ you got it booking right.
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the next time you want a ride. is it convenience or or liability? >> i could come out against it but then they will give me a 4 star rating. most of these privacy cases leave me a little cold. they seem hypothetical. and i think this is just the world we live in. so many companies we trade information with they can do this. it would be a horrible policy if they were to do this. so i'm glad the foundation is making this clear. but i really doubt that uber would so offend its customers by becoming some sort of stasi. >> uber went after journalists and wrote critical things about them. >> there is not a great track record. >> i think you are being way too kind to them. here is this company that is supposed to be the company of the future the cool techy, ride-sharing phenomenon. and every move it makes is big brotherish. >> and there are labor disputes as well.
>> yes. i'm less concerned about the uber conglomerate deciding it is good policy to track the location of its riders after they get out of the car and more concerned about the single driver deciding that he enjoyed the last passenger and wanted to meet her at the bar she had gone to when he dropped her off. which everybody has a friend with a story of the guy who kept texting or the guy who showed up the next day at the same time just to see if she wanted the ride. creepy. >> totally creepy. >> and not to put you on the spot, but i am. i do -- >> of course. -- makes it feel safer that there is a log of where they have been. that someone -- that the geosatellite data exists. >> i'm glad i have info. i'm just concern he also had mine. >> what are the qualifications. tom own's a camry so now he can track where i am. >> we are still using uber and when it comes to consumer
about. >> right. and you would have to give -- you should have to give permission to do something like that. >> yes. my mother will never take uber. tomorrow president obama will officially order change to u.s. hostage policy announcing those with family overseas will no longer face prosecution for trying to pay ransoms to their loved ones. the story with how we have dealt or with not dealt with hostage situations abroad. this to me seems like more of a big deal change than just allowing families to pay ransom. because effectively the u.s. government is saying it is okay to pay ransoms. >> i think it sounds like what had been happening was fairly ad hoc. and in a situation like this the last thing you want is something ad hoc. so when different departments feel that certain -- when the fbi things ransom is appropriate
and the state department thinks it isn't you really to have someone with the family in mind. and with the family in mind you have to have a con b stent policy. i'm glad it is being done with a little humanitarian concern for what must be the literal worst thing on earth for these families. >> and then to compound it for the state department to say we'll prosecute you. >> is terrible policy. >> yes but the u.s. policy is the right policy. and if you look at other countries where they themselves they ransom their people are kidnapped at a much greater rate. >> this is correct. >> the u.s. has said it is okay to pay ransoms. >> they won't prosecute families for doing. >> what family is not going to try and pay ransom. >> that is different from a u.s. government or government doing it. >> if the reason americans aren't kidnapped with as much
frequency is because terrorists do not think they can get money from americans and they now know that there is sort of open door policy to get money from the victim's families. >> i don't think that is exactly what the policy means. we'll see it in action. but i do feel like there will continue to be ways to discourage the paying of ransom to explain why it's wrong. i just think the heavy handedness of going to these families and families complained about it. of being told we will prosecute you was terrible. and that that had to be changed. but i do worry we're opening the door to a terrible change in policy. >> i guess we'll have to see. tomorrow is the official unveiling of the hostage policy. at some point or someone is going to officially announce and then we can debate this all over. joan walsh, always good to see you. mike and jess hang with me. when we come back taylor swift proves she just might be the most powerful musician on the planet. shopping online... ...is as easy as it gets. wouldn't it be great...
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officers are departing the scene. dna evidence from the cabin has been linked to the two prisoners. today tells msnbc news that prison clothing was also found in the cabin. >> we've had markets closing in positive territory just barely. the major averages heading into to tomorrow. the dow adding about 24 point, the s&p up just other a point. and nasdaq closing at another record, six points higher. he's older so he needs my help all day. when my back pain flared up we both felt it i took tylenol at first but i had to take 6 pills to get through the day.
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jay-z's music streaming service has been booted. meanwhile taylor swift has taken on the biggest company in the world and won. late sunday apple announced it would pay out realities during the three month free trial of its streaming service. coming just hours after swift wrote a public letter criticizing them of withholding payment. we don't ask you for free iphones she wrote. please don't ask us to provide you with our music for no compensation. apple's response they will pay during the free trial period. we hear you taylor swift and indie artist love apple. joining us now is alex gayle. i love that we hear you indie artists, the rest of the world and also taylor swift, if there was any doubt that she is the most important recording artist in the world right now this
should quell the debate. >> what you have to realize is taylor is good. as she mentioned and admitted in her blog. she makes a ton of money from albums and from tours. streaming is not a big deal for her. but i do this really has become a cause for her. just rallying cry. if you are a song writer or producer as music has moved more into live space and that is where a a lot of money is now made, the producers and song writers and behind the scenes people don't get their money. so i think people are applauding her right now. >> i guess i wonder there are other -- it is worth noting artists who also took issue. that were not listed in apple's thank you note. bonn bonn iver. and radio head. and adel. >> never heard of them. >> it also is a testament -- i
won't create a war between jay-z and taylor swift but does not have the power that swift does. the cultural capital. >> right. i think they both have a ton first of all. >> but to change the industry i mean. they are engaged on the issue of streaming music. and she's just totally dominated. >> i don't think what she did is changing the model. i think the fact that she -- you know this sort of -- the fact her and apple have come to terms is a great thing. the biggest artist and biggest corporation coming together and agreeing to things. and if they can figure a way for streaming to go forward and everyone on board that will be yet for everyone. including tidal. >> it's her fan base that gives her that much power. i have a million jay-z records in my phone. i have no taylor swift although i am a fan.
>> because you can't get it. >> of everything she stands for. i don't think i could actually name you a song but i'm an old person by music standards. so i'm married to my various ways of playing music. kids the taylor swift fans know something new is coming along and they care more about her than about the convenience of being able to plug into itunes and that is it. >> and i also think this shifts some attention to apple. right? >> yes. >> they have maybe a little bit of a problem in terms of navigating the post jobs era. and it is worth mentioning steve jobs is the person who maybe destroyed the album by insisting on 99 cent singles to be purchased. >> honestly it was more napster and then the response. how can we make money off of this. >> to be said what taylor did is really laudable. the letter itself was excellent rhetoric. he did the thing where she complemented the person she was trying to change. drew a big tent.
leveraged social media. it was clearly apple is saying we are never ever getting on the wrong side of taylor swift. >> right. >> and she's doing it for people. i think you could tell us but actually her deal not just because she sells so many units. her deal is better ran really small artists. dave lowry of cracker has this site where he exposed how much me gets from spotify which is like a dollar a day. >> and taylor is all about the things she can control. he withdrew from spotify and in january phrases from this album, including this sick beat and trademarking those. is it necessary sf. >> she's a strong artist. and if you look back over the history of the music industry there are so many artists who were jerked over and didn't get
what they were due. so i have to hand it to her. there are so musicians like legends that don't own their masters and have no control. it's hard to really hold that against her. if she is suing a 10-year-old blogger for using that sick beat that would be a problem. >> just think of hammer had trademarked hammer time. >> but isn't party like it's 89 the same thing as party like it's 99. >> before we go. jesse, an australian woman who was hospitalized for four days because her skinny jeans cutoff the blood supply to her calves. >> where are you on these things? >> wearing really tight pants. i found out while on the train up here already in said skinny jeans and unable to back myself out of this. i do however think that a note of caution augment to be given
to women everywhere which is that you don't actually have to wear clothes that hurt you. you don't have to wear sky high heel heels. it is getting a lot easier now to look at the rise of men's wear. we can dress like them. it's okay. >> it would be great if there were other medical injuries from terrible fashion trends like the bieber side ways hat. if that caused something our society would be better off. >> the only way to really get bad fashion trends off of the runways. >> high heels can also mess you up pretty bad too. >> thanks guys. we'll have more after the break. e. >>pretty good? i know i have a 798 fico score thanks to the tools and help on experian.com. kaboom... well, i just have a few other questions. >>chuck, the only other question you need to ask is, "what else can you do for me?" i'll just take a water...
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artifacts. and that is all for now. the ed show is coming up next. good evening americans and welcome to the ed show. live in new york. let's get to work. tonight walmart gets a challenge from a u.s. senator. >> we've got a have a conversation here in this country about the kind of weapons we make legal. >> plus taking on race issues. >> america's long struggle with race is far from finished. >> later, salvaged in the senate. >> on this vote the yay's are 60, the nays are 37. it is agreed to. >> we today don't do anything to help those workers that lose their jobs. >> and polls for people power. >> we've been talking about this and the large crowds that bernie sanders in particular has been getting. but when you looked at the new poll now it is not