tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC August 27, 2015 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT
word with lawrence o'donnell." our latest gun tragedy has advocate. >> it's not about the guns. it's about mental instability. >> presidential election and we are having the gun debate. >> too bad somebody can't figure that out. >> we have to find a way to keep crazy people from getting guns. >> sadly these kinds of events happen too often. >> i'm not going to sit by while more good people die. >> what could have prevented him from killing them whether with a gun, knife or bomb. >> i don't want to see another alison tragedy like this before. >> we need to have common sense reforms. >> hillary clinton reaction something more sophisticated. >> i don't see candidates deviating from the second amount. it has to stop. it has to stop. >> donald trump is in south carolina today.
>> ombre de pelican. >> say what you want about donald trump. he's not scripted. >> i don't wear a toupee. it's my hair. i swear. >> yes, i believe it is. >> thank you. >> i don't think donald trump will be our nominee. >> this guy dunn have a plan. >> we need unpredictability, we really do. here, you can have it. >> the father of alison parker the reporter murdered on live television yesterday made his first public comments about his daughter's death last night on fox news and ended the interview by announcing his new mission in memory of his daughter, gun control legislation. andy parker continued to stress that political point today on nbc news. >> my grief, which is still apparent and will be that way for a while, it's turned to
anger because, you know, how many times are we going to see an incident like this happen? you know, newtown, charleston, the movie theaters, you name it. it's got to stop. it's got to stop temperature nationally, locally. we've got to find a way to keep crazy people from getting guns. mentally unstable people. look at, the people that do this are mentally unstable and somehow they are able to get guns. the nra is fighting it tooth and nail. my goal is to call these people out, which i'm doing now, and i'm going to do it on national television every chance i get and call out the politicians that support it. >> republican candidates for president immediately came out in opposition to andy parker's new cause. >> what happened in virginia is absolutely terrible.
so sad to see this magnificent -- these magnificent -- and the woman that was hurt but these magnificent two people so sad, so something has to happen. at the same time, it's not about the guns. it's about mental instability. >> the only people who follow gun laws are law-abiding citizens. criminals by definition ignore the law. what law could have prevented him from killing them whether it was a gun, five knife or bomb. >> hillary clinton brought up gun control yesterday even before andy parker did and colorado today she said this. >> i strongly believe we have to have common sense reforms to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals, the violently unstable, domestic abusers and even terrorists who find it pretty easy in our country to get ahold of a weapon if they so choose. i'm not going to sit by while more good people die and they get 24, 48 or 72 hours of tv coverage and then we all just
say, well, there's nothing we can do until the next time people are murdered by gun violence. >> that gave republican presidential candidate scott walker the opportunity to speak in opposition to hillary clinton without acknowledging that he was also speaking in opposition to the latest publicly grieving father in america's endless saga of gun violence. >> it's unfortunate that all too often we see people like hillary clinton, a political reaction to something that is much more sophisticated and challenging. >> joining us now, nicholas kristof, whose column is about gun control. and he's co-author of the book a path appears out next week in paper back and sheer center political editor david corn, washington bureau chief from msnbc.
it is horrible to talk politics in the aftermath of these events. it is supposed to exist after these events before anyone dare say the words gun control and very much to their surprise last night on fox news this grieving father was the one who led this this time. >> andy parker is exactly right. this is not about just one double murder. this is about a larger problem in america where we are off the charts globally. 92 americans die every day of gun violence. american kids are 14 times as likely to die of gun violence as kids in the industrial world as a whole. why is that? it is complicated. it's not just because we have so many guns but that is one major reason for it and there are steps we can take that aren't going to solve the problem but can reduce that toll considerably. >> let's listen to what president obama said yesterday. >> sadly, these kinds of events happen too often.
it is a testimony that global journalists go in to tough situations. this wasn't that situation. this is a place where they ought to be safe and one more argument to look at how we can reduce gun violence in this country. >> the republican candidates when they talk about this are going to want to say i disagree with hillary clinton. they are not going to want to mention andy parker. >> yeah. they don't want to mention andy parker. obviously he's at the center of this right now. he's among many things. he's at his core a grieving father. taking on andy parker than is not a winning argument for a lot of republican candidates. what i'd like to see for the republican candidates talking about mental health as the root of the problem and what policy will they do that doesn't include government spending to solve this?
what do they think is the solution to in terms of a mental health problem. >> scott walker said today the common thread we see in many of these cases is a failure in the system to help someone suffering from mental illness. but when he was milwaukee county executive, scott walker cut mental health case managers. he cut treatment, mental health treatment, he cut several hundred thousand dollars out of the budget there. david corn. so it is not like the republicans have found something they actually want to do about this. it sounds like they want to use the phrase mental health to suggest there's no government responsibility. >> as a distraction, in some ways, jeb bush, too. when he was the governor of florida vetoed several line items for programs that help people with substance abuse and mental health issues. it's not just scott walker. part of the issue here, too, is
you can talk about having greater mental health services across the country, but a lot of these people who are committing these foul deeds often are walking in without a history -- they are not having sought mental health. unless the republicans are going out there with a mental health police squad to find people like the fella who shot up the journalists in virginia and be kind of, you know, the worst type of government jack booted thugs they ever talk about. you have to look at the supply of guns. you have to look at doing something to make it harder to get guns, whether it is registering guns, that maybe a disincentive for some people to use them the wrong way. all of these things you have to do about the gun supply even if you can't get rid of every gun. otherwise their mental health policies are nonexistent and the ones that would have any impact go against conservative libertarian principles they espouse.
>> i want to listen to what kelly zuber had to say at the news conference. she is a director of the tv station where this tragedy happened and she is talking about the precautions they are taking now. let's listen to this. >> we did not have live teams out yesterday. nor do we have them out today, just for an abundance of caution. i know a lot of other news organizations around the country are wrestling with that. we'll evaluate that as we go and we'll also consult with our staff and see what their comfort level is with this. law enforcement has actually reached out to us and said if you are doing a live shot somewhere, let us know and we'll be there. >> this brings up something we know about this phenomenon. this is going to happen again. we have not seen our last shooting in a school. we have not seen the last shooting on a college campus. we have not seen the last shooting in a movie theater because there is a repetitive
pattern to these incidents and now we have seen someone try to do this on live television with a live crew out there in the field, we have ever right to expect, at some point in the next years, we don't know when, someone else to try to use this same method again. so they are saying what do we do about our news crews when we send them out there? >> absolutely. of course some of the incidents beget more incidents. we focus on newsworthy incidents. the great pattern that 33,000 gun deaths every year in the u.s., you know, most of these are people who know each other. they are spouses. they are friends. two-thirds of them are suicides, suicides are much more likely to be effective if a gun is involved. you know, it may well be that no measure could have prevented the killer in this case from actually acquiring that gun, but
if we did have much greater controls as canada and australia has, as any other modern country has, if we could reduce the toll by -- >> give the australia example as you did in your column today. >> australia has a legacy like the u.s., many people had guns, a lot of hunters. >> like the wild west, historically. >> similar heritage. and they had a series of mass attacks. in 1996 there was one that really shook the country. the conservative government at the time actually decided this is enough. with broad public support, they instituted major constraints on guns. handguns are still available. it becomes a lot harder. the result is that gun homicides dropped almost 50%. gun suicides dropped 50% over the next seven years. >> let's listen to more what andy parker had to say today.
>> somebody has to be able to identify, hey, this guy's got some problems. got some anger issues. he shouldn't be buying a gun. i got a call from the governor from terry mcauliffe who was very gracious and i told him this is what i'm going to do. this is something now -- to help alison's memory live on and do something about her life and make it, you know meaningful we need politicians like terry mcauliffe to step up. i'm going to hold him -- governor, i'm going to hold you to it. >> i wanted andy parker to get the last word in this segment tonight. we will take a break. when we come back, former ku klux klan president and former presidential candidate david duke has chosen his candidate for president.
now, take a wild guess who david duke might want to see as the next president. and a new poll offers joe biden some hope for a possible presidential campaign. later glenn greenwald will talk about invasion of privacy, not by the nsa but the ashley madison hackers. you get used to the lingering odors in your bathroom you think it smells fine, but your guests smell this... febreze air effects heavy duty has up to two times the
campaign opponents donald trump and ted cruz are going to hold a joint rally in opposition to the iran deal. donald trump said this today. >> we are talking to ted cruz, who's a friend of mine and a good guy about doing something very big over the next two weeks in washington. it will be announced. it's essentially a protest against the incompetent deal we are making with iran. >> after that mitt romney's campaign manager tweeted this, ted cruz hoping if he is nice enough to trump he will be able to lure his voters is like feeding the alligator hoping it
will eat you last. and who david duke thinks is the best choice for president. to folks out there whose diabetic nerve pain... shoots and burns its way into your day, i hear you. to everyone with this pain that makes ordinary tasks extraordinarily painful, i hear you. make sure your doctor hears you too! i hear you because i was there when my dad suffered with diabetic nerve pain. if you have diabetes and burning, shooting pain in your feet or hands, don't suffer in silence! step on up and ask your doctor about diabetic nerve pain. tell 'em cedric sent you.
david duke, the former grand wizard of the ku klux klan and former republican candidate for president, senate and house of representatives has found his candidate for president. he's on the bandwagon of the republican front runner donald trump. >> so although we can't trust him to do what he says, you know, the other republican candidates won't even say what he says. so he's certainly the best of the lot.
and he's certainly somebody that we should definitely get behind in terms of, you know, raising the image of this thing. >> he was asked about getting an endorsement from a grand wizard. >> would you repudiate david duke. >> i would certainly do that if it made you feel better. i don't know anything about him. i don't think it was an endorsement he said i was the best of the candidates. >> he gave a speech during south carolina and for once no network covered the whole thing live but i took on the duty of watching every word of it on our network feed and i can officially confirm to you, that the network made a wise decision. you didn't miss a thing. there wasn't a new line in the entire speech, except for a new audience participation bit about donald's hair. >> i don't wear a toupee. it's my hair.
i swear. come here. come here. come here. come here. i'm going -- we're going to settle this. barbara walters did it. barbara walters named the most whatever it is of the year. come up here. they are going to let you. you have to do an inspection here. this is getting crazy. this is crazy. just real quick. we don't want to mess it up too quick because i do use hair spray. come here. is it mine? >> it is. >> say it, please. >> yes, i believe it is. >> thank you. >> david corn, big surprise. america's leading white supremacist has landed on donald trump as his candidate. >> i was happy to see donald trump repute david duke only because john halman wanted him to. it wasn't like this is terrible, i want nothing to do with this guy. you want me to repute him, i will repute him. he's reputed. i'm sure somewhere he is
thinking maybe i will get a few votes out of this. i don't have to endorse him back. it goes to show what's fuelling, i think trump's standing in the polls and his success so far is he's appealing to a lot of republican conservative voters, maybe not so conservative who are angry, frustrated, they have a lot of fear. they don't like to press one for english, two for spanish. they don't like the sculptural changes taking place in america and that's what is driving this and one reason why trump won't go away. there's a large block of americans who feel that way. >> donald trump of course pled ignorance which he does whenever it is inconvenient to him by saying about david duke, he said, i don't know anything about him. that's in his statement where he is immediately willing to repute, as the word -- the chosen word in that interview. you are covering the new
hampshire primary, closely up there for the boston globe. david duke is not going to be help nfl the new hampshire primary. >> he's not help nfl the new hampshire primary but still leading the new hampshire republican primary in polls up here. there is a segment of the population that i think david described well. they tend to be less educated republicans who are sticking by donald trump through thick and thin. look at this comment he just made. the correct answer in politics 101 is to refute the david duke endorsement. there's no other answer to that question in politics, yet he managed to answer in a different way and passed it off to the side. just another reason why donald trump completely confounds the rules of today's politics, whether or not it is good for america. >> he doesn't have time, i guess because he's busy condemning everyone who endorses anyone else. eric cantor. >> or putting hair spray on his hair apparently. >> eric cantor endorsed jeb bush today. trump immediately tweets who wants the endorsement of a guy
who lost in perhaps the greatest upset in the history of congress? he is busy calling the jeb bush endorsers losers. >> he is busy reputing everybody. >> everybody else. >> except david duke. i guess that i doubt this will have much affect among republican circles. one way or the other. it's a long way to go. obviously he's -- i'm sure trump is number one among republican, and number one across the board. >> the latest quinnipiac poll shows donald trump with the lead at 28%. ben carson 12, jeb bush 7 tied with ted cruz and marco rubio. scott walker comes in right after that. go ahead, david. to these polls, i want to mention this point that nate brought up in the "new york
times" today. the analysis of the polls indicating the support for trump comes from people of a significant number of people who did not vote in the last presidential election and who very rarely vote or never vote in primaries. so, that offers the theory that the trump polling position is being inflated by these respondents in primaries. >> yes and no. there are instances in the past when jesse ventura was elected governor, a lot of people voted that never voted before and i bet the same thing with ross perot. the poll that you put up, which i find fascinating. if you take trump's number and add them to ben carson's number, his campaign slogan is not make america again but heal and revive america. same sentiments. you add it together and you have 4 0%. as donald trump would say that's
huge, huge, almost half of the republican party wants one of these type of candidate. that spells big trouble for jeb bush and the establishment. >> if you add ted cruz and mike huckabee to that it is 50 and that's what the polls have been showing on this. i was struck by something david duke said. he may be speaking for a lot of people in the 28%. he says although we can't trust him to do what he says, the other republican candidates won't even say what he says. they really want to hear donald trump say what he says. >> well, he's incredibly entertaining and -- i do think that it is a long way before anyone goes to the polls. i think i would still bet that donald trump is going to fade. i'm not sure i would give the odds i did a month or two ago but it is a long time before people are actually casting ballots. >> what he comes up against in
all of the polls is he is the republican who most republicans say they will never vote for. he gets the highest score on who will you never vote for in these thing. getting up to 28, hovering around the mid-20s and now 28 in this poll has been a pretty consistent spot where he is. so, until he starts to break above 30 in a significant way he seems to be hovering at a plateau there. >> there's no question he has a ceiling in the republican primary. he has a ceiling in general election polls. he just can't get over that hump. this donald trump phenomenon is not all about trump, unless you ask him. this is about having such a large field. there are primaries with the person with 28% on caucus night are the loser, in third place. so it is the result of having a large field, splitting up the vote in so many directions. 28% is not the majority of the
republican party by any means. it's a fraction and what many cases what the loser gets on primary nate. >> a lot better than jeb bush's 7%. >> this is true. >> you go to the war with a candidates and poll s you have as donald rumsfeld might say. it is remarkable that against that wide field of established candidates with pedigrees, trump is wiping them by a factor of four. >> the latest addition to the trump payroll is sam clovis, a defector from rick perry's campaign and he is working in the age of e-mail and they are releasing his e-mails of a couple of weeks ago about donald trump in which he says trump left me questions about his moral center and foundational believes. his comments reveal no foundation in christ, which is a big deal. he has a lot of other e-mails
attacking trump that we don't have a lot of time to read right now. trump when asked about it says, oh, sam clovis is a great guy. just as simple as that. >> at least he acknowledged knowing him. he remembered him. >> he's on my payroll now, who cares what he said then. stay with us. we will have more. when we come back, a new poll shows hillary clinton in the lead but shows some benefit for biden. when you do business everywhere, the challenges of keeping everyone working together can quickly become the only thing you think about.
♪ isn't it beautiful when things just come together? build a beautiful website with squarespace. it's the brand more doctorsose recommend for minor arthritis pain. plus, just two aleve can last all day. you'd need 6 tylenol arthritis to do that. aleve. all day strong. ♪ ♪ if you can't stand the heat, get off the test track. get the mercedes-benz you've been burning for at the summer event, going on now at your authorized mercedes-benz dealer.
a new poll released today shows a 15 point slide for hillary clinton since they began polling in april. that was down 55% by july. in two days queen pea yak poll at 45%. bernie sanders 22%, joe biden at 18. that's an increase of five points for sanders and five points for biden since the last quinnipiac poll. for the first time the poll shows joe biden doing better in general election matchups than hillary clinton. against donald trump, joe biden leads by 8, hillary clinton leads by 3.
there have been some fascinating responses on the internals of these polls on the issue of trustworthiness for example. the trustworthiness scores in the new quinnipiac poll shows joe biden at 56%. jeb bush 48%, bernie sanders 44%, donald trump 38 and hillary clinton at 34. >> 39 i think. >> 39. okay. so donald trump and hillary clinton tied at the bottom of the score. >> that's what really struck me. not so much that biden was showing the strength. the differences between -- in those matchups, the differences between biden and hillary clinton are actually within the margin of error in the poll but what you really do see is this distrust, 39% approval rating there for her. the three words that pop up most common when people ask -- when
pollsters asked for clinton were liar, dishonest and untrustworthy. i think that is a fundamental problem that the campaign will have to address. of course one wonders whether one reason biden is entering the campaign or thinking about it is because he has information about how the e-mail investigation is going or what shoe may drop next. >> david corn, joe biden had a meeting with the afl-cio today which i find fascinating. on their biggest issue, the transpacific partnership, the trade bill, there is no difference that we are aware of between joe biden and hillary clinton on that, and they are both in the wrong place for the afl-cio. >> there aren't a lot of issue differences, i think, between the two of them. on a grand scale, overall. one issue has to be if biden gets in to the race what will they argue about? will it by have more experience, i'm more trustworthy or personal attributes.
i'm not showing for the hillary campaign here, but if i were them, i'd say listen, joe biden looked better in the polls but he hasn't been subjected to six months of negative advertising and headlines the way she has. politicians always look good or better before they get in to the race. it's all downhill from there. i think, you know, if biden were to get in, his previous gaps, and mistakes he's made in the past would be blown up and you would have a competitive race against him and hillary. god knows how negative or nasty it may be. even though biden in the past, i'm told by his people, ever okayed a negative ad. >> yeah. shira, we have seen this this bernie sanders conducted campaign where he is never mentioned hillary clinton, never attacks her, never goes negative in any way. hillary clinton does not go after bernie sanders.
if it becomes if biden enters that dynamic can that be continued in campaigns where none of them say anything negative about each other? >> i think it will be hard to see that play out, totally positive democratic primary. i think bernie sanders in the end will probably not go negative. it doesn't speak to the idea of his candidacy. it's just the way he's run his campaigns in the past. i don't see him going negative on those guys unless they say something targeted toward him and he feels the need to respond. hillary clinton and joe bide en we have seen them in democratic primaries before and know their records and how they run these races and hillary clinton did not shy away from criticizing barack obama in 2008. and i could see that a more negative race, certainly not as gentle in tone as it is now. >> back to the poll, the word
association game they played with respondents. on donald trump, give us donald trump in one word, the number one word was arrogant, the number two word was blow hard and the number three word is idiot which was not used for any of the other candidates, and yet trump, the idiot, according to those voters is saying he knows more about women's health than hillary clinton, that's given hillary clinton a chance to wrap donald trump around the necks of the other republicans. let's listen to the way she's doing that. >> extreme views about women. we expect that from some of the terrorist groups we expect that from people who don't want to live in the modern world. but it's a little hard to take coming from republicans who want to be the president of the united states yet they espouse out of date and out of touch
policies. they are dead wrong for 21st century america. we're going forward. we're not going back! >> shira, it seems that hillary clinton agrees with george will that donald trump is hurting the republican party and hillary wants to make sure he is hurting it as much as he possibly can. >> there's no one celebrating donald trump's ascension in the race more than the democratic party right now. this two months before, before we accepted that donald trump was the front runner and probably here to stay for a while, two months ago, this is what donald trump was supposed to do to the republican party, go to right that other republican candidates, even the ones who are more moderate on some things are supposed to -- excuse me, more conservative on some things were supposed to look more moderate. supposed to make the republican party look more moderate. that has not happened. many are embracing donald trump and put democrats in a happy position for themselves to be able to rope the republicans in
with the donald trump party. >> nick, the clinton campaign is starting to shake internally, especially when you see ed rendell in your newspaper today saying the campaign has been incredibly tone deaf. there's no stronger clinton loyalist than ed rendell. >> i think they need to have internal examination. they have done some -- i think there weren't enough people talking pretty bluntly to hillary clinton at various times. boy, we're a long way away. she still has so much room to correct. >> that will be the last word on the campaign for tonight. thank you for joining us. up next, president obama goes to new orleans on the tenth anniversary of hurricane katrina.
the possibility of a flare swas almost always on my mind. thinking about what to avoid, where to go... and how to deal with my uc. to me, that was normal. until i talked to my doctor. she told me that humira helps people like me get uc under control and keep it under control when certain medications haven't worked well enough. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. raise your expectations. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, control is possible.
ethey have smart online tools, which saves money. they settle claims quickly, which saves money. they drive an all-hybrid claims fleet, which saves money. they were born online, and built to save money, which means when they save, you save. click or call. >> as a presidential candidate in 2007, barack obama said america failed the people of new orleans. the president met with residents who continue to rebuild their neighborhoods and businesses. >> our work here won't be done when almost 40% of children live in poverty. that's not a finished job or full recovery. our work won't be done when a typical black house hold has half of the income as a white household. the work's not done yet.
the work is not done when there are too many people yet to find good affordable housing and too many people, especially african-american men who can't find a job. not when there's still too many people who haven't been able to come back home. but the thing is, the people of new orleans there's something in you guys that is irrepressible. you guys have a way of making a way out of no way. [ applause ] >> you know the sun comes out after every storm. >> up next, what does the nsa have to do with ashley madison? ♪
isn't it beautiful when things just come together? build a beautiful website with squarespace. the signs are everywhere. the lincoln summer invitation is on. get exceptional offers on the luxury small utility mkc, mkz sedan... ♪ the iconic navigator. and get a first look at the entirely new 2016 mid-size utility lincoln mkx. during the final days of the lincoln summer invitation get 0% apr for 72 months on the 2015 lincoln navigator.
plaque psoriasis. moderate to severe isn't it time to let the real you shine through? introducing otezla, apremilast. otezla is not an injection, or a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. some people who took otezla saw 75% clearer skin after 4 months. and otezla's prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't take otezla if you are allergic to any of its ingredients. otezla may increase the risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts, or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. side effects may include diarrhea, nausea, upper respiratory tract infection, and headache. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take, and if you're pregnant or planning to be. ask your doctor about otezla today. otezla.
many people who are deeply concerned with potential invasions of privacy in the nsa's collection of data have been gleeful about the personal information released by the hackers of the website ashley madison whose motto is "life is short, have an affair." the "washington post" wrote a story reveling in release of private information about private citizens with the headline how to search the ashley madison leak. the leading reporter of the nsa story, glenn greenwald sees the ashley madison story as another dangerous invasion of privacy. and tried to slow the rush to puritanical judgment that most other news organizations have engaged in. a recent article greenwald reprinted an e-mail he received from an ashley madison user who now expects to be outed an subjected to public mockery and shame. this e-mail does not fit the stereotype of the ashley madison
user that most of the media prefers. it says i am female, hold a job with a lot of responsibility, have three kids, one with special needs and a husband with whom i have not been intimate with for several years due to his cancer treatment. mine is a loveless, parentless, sexless marriage i will care for my husband if his cancer spreads. we manage good will for my husband. i went on ashley madison out of loneliness and despair and found friendship, both male and female with others trapped in terrible marriages try to do right by their children. my experiences have led me to soften my views of marriage as my own marriage is a deeply humbling, painful long-term commitment. i expect to be ridiculed by colleagues, to lose my job and be publicly shamed. when my outing happens, i suppose i might as well stand
for those trapped in bad marriages. many of us are doing the best we can, trying in our own imperfect way to cope with alienation, loneliness and deprivation. i do not want to hurt my children or husband. i truly wish had a good one and want happy marriages for others. i did what i did trying to cope. maybe it was a bad idea but again i have met some decent people on ashley madison, some of whom are now dear friends. joining us are glenn greenwald, cofounder of the intercept and contributing writer for the week. i have been following your posts about this. you know, the beginning of the coverage of this reminds me of the beginning of the coverage of the movie stars who have had their selfies, their private selfies hacked, distributed and first people think this is fun but somewhere it starts to nag on them there is an invasion of privacy here. there seems to be a very slow
media reaction here to this invasion of privacy. >> i agree. you can make the argument that people who are famous and benefit from that fame that part of the deal is their lives are scrutinized more than other people, although there should be limits even there. here we are talking about 33 million people roughly who are absolutely private citizens, at least the vast majority are. we don't know what many of them did. many could have gone for pornography, titillation, journalistic interest, may be trying to use it as an outlet to resist adultery so they didn't have to. the judgment is disturbing but even in the case of people who actually did have sex with someone other than their spouse, i thought we learned the lesson from the pat robertson and jerry falwell incident that we shouldn't judge anything other than our own behavior.
>> there are so many elements of this. i want to talk about the puritanical nature of the general media's reaction. it is overwhelmingly puritanical and judgmental. what i was struck by when i read the letter that gwen posted this is the story no one is considering. everyone thinks the story is bad, self indulgent guys who are constant liars. >> that's the point that everyone missed along the way which is women have affairs, too. i think although it has come to light that the vast majority of people on ashley madison were men but in the cruel light of day, women cheat. and they cheat for the same reasons men cheat. some sympathetic, some you won't. and we can't judge these things necessarily down gender lines. it doesn't work like that in reality. >> glenn, one of the notes that doesn't fit the overall stereotype of the story was in
"the new york post" where a man gave his firsthand account of discovering his wife using ashley madison only because of this hack and that helped to rip apart his marriage. his marriage was already in trouble, but this notion that when this story came out and this information came out that we have a right to this information. we have a right to search it. the "washington post" had a headline saying here's how you search this thing. we all have this right to play around with other people's privacy. >> yeah, think of the implications for the people whose privacy was exposed. what's on the internet is permanent. which means this will be attached to them the rest of their lives. like a digital scarlet letter branded on to their clothing. other people will have their careers ruined, the military, people in government, or people in the private sector who work for employers who will judge them morally. people who live in countries
where they could be punished with prison or death for adultery or for interest in homosexuality like saudi arabia and regions of the middle east where ashley madison users are even in greater danger. it reminds me -- i remember in the '80s as i was growing up as a gay person in america and pat robertson and jerry falwell said aids is something that people who participate in homosexuality get what they deserve. >> we will take a break and back with more on ashley madison. can a business have a mind? a subconscious. a knack for predicting the future. reflexes faster than the speed of thought. can a business have a spirit? can a business have a soul?
♪ (dorothy) toto, i've a feeling we're not in kansas anymore... (morpheus) after this, there is no turning back. (spock) history is replete with turning points. (kevin) wow, this is great. (commentator) where fantasy becomes reality! (penguin 1) where are we going? (penguin 2) the future, boys. the glorious future. (vo) at&t and directv are now one- bringing your television
and wireless together- and taking entertainment to places you'd never imagine. (rick) louis, i think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship. we are back talking about ashley madison. one thing that has come out is how many women were using this thing and it seems to be slipping down from millions to possibly thousands, which raises an interesting thing here. it seems like most of the guys using ashley madison were not going to be able to succeed in having an affair, even if they wanted to. so when you discover has used it, it does not mean you know anything about what they actually did. >> they may have been using the site for fantasy, to imagine themselves that role. we don't know . we don't know what goes on in these people's heads.
we don't know why men use it. we don't know why the few women who were on there used it. we also don't know if the site had been promoted more or targeted at women whether women would use it more. if you look at the home page, it has a pouty woman on there, it is clearly marketed to a man. i wonder if you took the same thing and marketed it to women if more women would go for it. >> glenn, this raises questions as the sony hack did, the questions of privacy and where do we draw the lines. you have helped get information out of the government and published publicly information that the government considers to have been stolen. i had plenty of people say to me in hollywood, when the sony leak came out, why aren't people identifying this has stolen material? why are they reading stolen material on tv?
and then there's this, the ashley madison issue. what guidelines would you present to people about when they should be interested in otherwise secret information, and when they shouldn't. when they should say that's not for us? >> that's a critical question and not necessarily one that is easy to answer. i think we have a common sense about what is in the public interest and what is private. for one thing, people inside the government are called public officials. they are supposed to meet transparency by law. i think we can all agree when people in government do something in a public policy nature that affects us all and has a high level of transparency that ought to be brought it to and other is private individuals engaged if private behaviors like their marriage or sexual choices. think of all the things we do on the internet now. we put our medical records on there, our banking records.
even if you think this was with an okay hack, imagine the next time when somebody invades alcoholic or drug addiction or abortion clinic and says i want everyone to know who's with using these services. these are important questions as we do more and more on-line. >> who is using abortion services, millions of people in america think there is a legitimate public interest in knowing who's using those services because they believe that is murder. >> yeah, i mean it's really scary prospect. agree it is dangerous path we are going down. i can't imagine anything worse than hearing these poor people have their details of something so intensely private exposed. the affairs is one thing but imagine -- you could be in personal danger should someone find out you have had an abortion or been a drug addict. we don't know where this might end. >> thank you very much for
joining us. chris hayes is up next. his hair is real. but is he? let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. do you see donald trump has something phenomenal in american politics or as just another version of the same old same old? i'll make it simpler. do you think the republican voters all out rejection of jeb bush is now down to 7%, is real? clearly there is something happening in today's politics. republicans are rejecting the grand old party in favor of trump the billionaire and to a lesser extent, dr. ben carson, the brilliant neuro surgeon. and that is something far harder to sweep aside. something happening on the right d