wonder if this latest atrocity will be enough to push political and national calculations aside and persuade governments all over the world to come together and fight a new enemy so vile it it is once again an enemy for all of us, an enemy that celebrates death over life. an enemy that's enshrined slave owning as a religious right. the question is, has isis killed enough to unite russia and the u.s.? france and turkey, saudi arabia and iran in a battle against it? the answer, sadly, is probably not. but hey, this is paris. one can dream. i'm richard engel. rachel will be back tomorrow. msnbc's coverage of the attacks on paris continues now with lawrence o'donnell. >> this is msnbc's continuing coverage of the paris terror attacks. french police now believe there were nine participants in friday night's attacks in paris, not

just the eight they previously estimated. seven of those attackers died in the attacks, including the brother of salah abdelsalam. today they now believe that the friday night attacks were carried out by three teens with three terrorists in each team. french police released a photograph of one of the atta attackers who blew himself up outside the stade defrance. authorities are asking for the public's help in identifying that man. in hanover, germany, a bomb threat forced the sea evacuation of ten of thousands of spectators before a soccer match between germmy and the netherlands. the german chancellor angela merkel was scheduled to attend. the match was cancelled. a second stadium in hanover, the site of a concert, was also

evacuat evacuated. under heavy security, the soccer match between france and england at wembley stadium in london went off without incident. david cameron and prince william were among those singing the national anthem. kate snow, what is the latest there? >> well, lawrence, let me start with hanover, germany, you just mentioned that. that was really big news here in europe this evening. that's when a match between germany and the netherlands had to be stoned the last minute. they cleared out the stadium. authorities worried because of a bomb threat. the threat involved explosives going off inside the stadium. now, that did not materialize. they did not find any explosives and they did not make any arrests, but it was a scare, to be sure. turning from here to france, lawrence, what's happening here now at this hour is the search

for another potential attacker who may still be out there. remember that french authorities had said that they thought there were eight attackers in total, seven of whom had died. one they were searching for a belgium man named sala salah abdelsalam. now they say they're looking for a ninth person, someone they're very clearly on the lookout now and a manhunt is under way. the french justice minister telling msnbc news separately that a syrian passport found near one of the suicide bombers, you recall, that news. the minister saying it was likely not genuine, not a genuine syrian passport. still they're now asking the public for help in identifying the man pictured in that passport. so they're asking people to see if they recognize that man in the image. on capitol hill, senator richard burr, the chairman of the senate intelligence committee spoke with reporters this afternoon after a briefing saying it was likely that militants here in

paris used incription to plan this attack and to talk with each other. he also said that there's a strong likelihood that the attacks were directed by isis, and that's a dings, not just inspired by, but directed by the group. as the investigation continues, lawrence, so do the air strikes again here on a tuesday, late into the night. there are french air strikes under way. and so important, i think, to remember. i'm standing at the plaza d plaza de republique, at this hour, 57 people remain in intensive care. >> thank you, kate. thanks very much for joining us. let's go to brussels now where we're joined by nbc news

claudio, lavanga. >> they're looking everywhere possible and the intelligence forces of every country is joining forces. this is the place think will have to start from bhauz this is the place where salah abdelsalam was born and radicalized. this is where president hollande said they organized the plot before they carried out in france. this is the place where they found the weapon, and that is the place where the family of salah abdelsalam lives. he was later released. police believe he does not have any links with the brother and the attacks there, but mohammed appeared on television a couple of times saying his family is shocked. and he made an appeal today on french television, calling for his brother to turn himself in. well, that hasn't happened, of course. salah is still on the run.

but this is the place where he is believed to have at least gone through, if he's not still here yet. of course, as you mentioned earlier, there's two suspects were arrested for aiding his escape from france. so he must have passed through belgium at some stage on saturday. the police doesn't know yet whether he's still here. lawrence? >> thank you, claudio lavagna from brus sells. we have details on the sfruk ch -- structure of the terror cells. what are we learning? >> we are learning that it was a very sophisticated cell composed of three different unit. you had three men aiming at the restaurants, three men aiming the stadium, the french stadium, and you have three men aiming the bataclan. the unit composed of three men

aiming the restaurants on friday, two of them escaped and the french investigators believe that the two men who are escaped are brothers. nobody knows where they are. people think that one of them crossed the border between france and belgium. there's one of his friends who has been arrested at this moment in belgium. he's questioned. he took a lawyer. the lawyer is saying that this brother was questioned at one point on saturday morning by the police. we don't know precisely what's happening, we just know the investigators are quite worried about that, that two brothers who committed attacks on friday night are at large and nobody knows what's going to happen. there's another information which is quite interesting. the policeman and the people in charge of the investigation received an audio tape. and in this add taudiotape, you the voice of someone claiming the responsibility of the attacks in the name of the islamic state.

and the french investigators were able to identify the name and the voice on the tape, and it's a frenchman, and it's absolutely fascinating to understand where this frenchman is coming from. the investigators are fully convinced that this man was behind the attack. it was another french person, meaning it was a french who was bombing france, who was fully radicalized in the 90s. he has a nickname, omar. after the '90s, this man was fully radicalized by another man in france who was coming apparent apparently from syria. they hide themselves inside french society. fabian left for egypt, and what is fascinating is that he began in egypt apparently to create a

cell to finance people to commit suicide bombing against soldiers, american soldiers in iraq. he came back to france in 2009, and in 2009, he went to the french police authority and he gave himself up. and he went to prison for five years he was in prison. people think that at this time he became more and more radicalized. imagine someone who has committed an anti-semitic act in france. he denied them, but people think he had connections with a horrible attack in france in 2012. then he disappeared. and apparently according to the investigators i spoke with, he went to syria. and what is fascinating in this story is that you see that they're preparing themselves for a long time that it's not in three months, that it takes

years for them to attack targets that they precisely chose and that it's a global organization, because you speak now about belgium. you speak about france. you speak about syria. you speak about greece. it's completely global. then you also speak about egypt and iraq. and it's also always the same story. people who are born in france, who are fully radicalized, and then they go to syria and they come back and they commit attacks against their homeland. >> laura, what do the french authorities know about where that call came from, the call fabian made claiming credit for the islamic state for the i tacks. do they think it was an international call? made outside of the country? >> they do not know. what they know is it's a recorded message. the length of the message is five minutes and 30 second.

they worked very hard since they received this message to, again, identify the voice. and they're completely sure that the voice is this man, because they had in their archives this voice, because this guy, again, has been arrested. and what is fascinating also in the story is to see that those men, all the men who committed attacks against paris on friday were well known by the french intelligence. some of them, according to our research, were arrested, they were questioned. some of them were i.d.'d. again, it's going to create a huge in france. >> president obama has just spoken to reporters in the philippines. he had strong words for governors back here in the united states about the issue of syrian refugees coming to the united states. amerivest selects the funds and manages your portfolio.

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>> president obama just spoke, he had very strong language about what's hooping here in the united states, the resistansyri refugees. we will have that next. well, right now you can get 15 gigs for the price of 10. that's 5 extra gigs for the same price. so five more gigs for the same price? yea, allow me to demonstrate. do you like your pretzel?

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>> we're breaking use at this hour. president obama is attending the apeck summit. he's at a press conference a short time ago. the president responded with some strong criticism toward the governors and the presidential candidates, republican presidential candidates who said syrian refugees shouldn't be accepted in the united states. let's listen to this. >> with respect to the refugee debate that he's been taking place, i gather, while we've been gone. what happened in paris is terrible. because you have this vibrant, modern, open, diverse, tolerant western city that reminds us of home, that reminds us of our own caves and our own parks and our own sparks and stadiums.fes and

own sparks and stadiums. i see why the american people have been particularly affected by the gruesome images that have happened there. and it is important for us to be reminded that we have to be vigilant, that rooting out these terrorists networks and protecting the homeland is hard work and we can't be come play september or lulled into thinking somehow that we are immune from these kinds of attacks. we've spent the last decade-plus to make it much harder to terrorists attack us. we coordinated with our allies. all the work we've been doing in our intelligence communities an military in the last decade is in recognition of the fact that this is something that we should

be concerned about. and we have to prevent it. but we are not well served when in response to a terrorist attack we descend into fear and panic. we don't make good decisions, if it's based on advice ter yeah or an exaggeration of risks. i think the debate is an example of us not being well served by some of the commentary that's been taking place by circumstantials back home and in the media. understand under current law it

takes anywhere from on average 18 to 24 months to clear a refugee to come into the united states. they are subjected to the most rig louse process conceivable. the intelligence community vets fully who they are. biometrics are applied to determine whether they are, in fact, somebody who might threaten the united states. there is an entire apparatus of all of our law enforcement agencies and the center that we use for countering terrorism to check and ensure that a refugee is not admitted that might cause us harm. the refugee crisis in europe, we've been criticized it's so cumberso cumbersome, it's been tough for us to show the kind of compassion we need to for these

folks who are suffering under the bombings of assad and the attacks of isil. they're victims of this terrorism. and so if there are concrete actual suggestions to enhance this extraordinary screening plo sesz that's already in place, we're welcome -- we're open to hearing actual ideas. but that's not really what's been going on in this debate. when candidates say we won't admit 3-year-old orphans, that's political posturing. when individuals say we should have a religious test and only christians, proven christians should be admitted that's offensive and contrary to american values.

i cannot any of a more potent recruitment tool for isil than some of the rhetoric that's been out of here. >> isil is look iing for positi s. the muslims are in a war torn land that feeds the isil narrative. it's counterproductive. and it needs to stop.

and i had add, by the way, these are folks who sometimes suggested they ear so tough that just talking to putin or staring down isil or using some additional rhetoric somehow is going to solve the problems out there. but apparently they're scared of widow evens orphan comes into the united states of america as part of our tradition of compassion. at first, they were worried about the press being too tough on them. >> we are. [ break into the president's comments with more breaking news. we have two air france bomb threats called into air france flights from the united states, both of them now safely on the ground. one flight number 55 from dulles to paris. it has been diverted to halifax nova scotia. it is safely on the ground. the other, air france flight number 65 from los angeles international airport to paris.

it has been diverted to salt lake city. it is safely on the ground. we're joined now by aviation expert anthony roman, joined by phone. it seems like these bomb threats must have been called in shortly after takeoff, probably within an hour. those destinations they reached were in the case of salt lake city, what about 65 minutes from los angeles international airport. and nova scotia, about an hour and a half or two hours from dulles. what is your reading of what will be going on with those planes on the ground now. there are speskt protovols.

cryptically or through a coded message through the transponder, it would be a coded signal that there is a bomb threat. if they can do it through the radio in an audio fashion expeditiously without creating any undo risk to themselves, they will do that. air traffic control will then issue immediate vectors to the closest suitable airport that can handle an aircraft of that size. almost simultaneously, the military will be notified, scramble, interceptor jets, which will escort the airliner down and remain over the airport while law enforcement, bomb squads and special operation units are deplayed to the airport to secure the aircraft, remove the passengers, keep them in a secured location, and begin to search the aircraft for any

possible explosives. >> flight air frant number 65 on the ground in salt lake city. the big air buses, how long will it take to search an aircraft like that until they're satisfied that there is no explosive device aboard? >> well, the source protocol is to evacuate the passengers if they are under no immediate threats from any third parties on the aircraft. they have to ensure that no passengers are quote, unquote, lost. in other words, that none of

them move from the crowd and they secure them in a facility where each passenger can be fully identified. they will assess what the risk is. chances are they will place robotics on to the plane and first search the plane with robotics that have cameras, bomb sniffers, medal detection sensors and those kinds of things. and following that, the human element will enter the plane fully geared up in anti-bomb suits that can protect the agents in that high-risk environment, and they will conduct a more methodical search using detection equipment, bomb

sniffing dogs and the like. >> do passengers in the situation themselves like this, there's not to be some element of treating some of them as possible suspects in this situation. >> i think suspects is a kind f of -- whether or not it then gets under suspicion is dependent on the results of background investigations that are immediately conducted on all the passengers, cross referencing their tickets, their passports, their identification, their criminal records, any known wants and warrants. at that point, it could escalate

their status to be a suspect. initially, everyone is a person of interest. >> to these two different airplane facilities where they're on the ground now, salt lake city, presumably a major american airport with major american law enforcement assets available to them. they presumably have everything you've been talking about, the bomb-sniffing dogs and presumably the robotic capacity to search the airplane. >> they. >> they will, but it will be a multiprolonged response from the city and local police, the state police, alcohol, tobacco and firearms. together they have a very robust response. they had the right equipment, they will deploy snipers in the

area. they will have surveillance agents in the area, the local police will be scouring the parking lot to ensure that everything remains secure. to it's a much bigger effort than it appears on the surface. capacities do they have to handle an air bus landing there in need of this kind of search? >> well, halifax is a robust airport that can handle an aircraft of that time. i don't see any difficulty there at all. jay, how long do you think it

will be before these plans clear. >> thrz this is out of an abundance of caution. these usually take an hour or so to clear. we've got a lot of passengers and a lot of luggage. hopefully they'll find nothing and they'll send these passengers on their way to france. a passenger on the plane named keith ros sew. this is on the fright to paris. they were about two hours into the flight, which is why they would have put down in salt lake

city as the nearest major facility they could land at. they were having a meal. the this passenger was in business class. the flight attendants came out, grabbed everyone's plates and announced they would be making an emergency landing. this passenger says that everyone remained calm. when they did land, buses were waiting outside. passengers were taken to a confined area. only passengers were in that area where they were taken. that conforms with what anthony roman told us would happen. a person saying they were with the fbi said that the would he interviewing the people due to a, quote, unsafe flying condition on the flight. so that is all the passengers knew by the time they were on the ground and about to be questioned by the fbi. this passenger said he could not

confirm reports that someone was attempting to break into the cockpit. that is patiently one of the reports involving the flight from los angeles to paris. he pointed out it's a double decker airplane and he would not necessari necessarily had a view of what was going on from the cockpit from where he was sitting. this reports precisely to the outline you gave us when this plan got on the ground. would these passengers be informed there was a bomb threat during the fbi interview? >> they may or may not be informed. it depends on the information both in terms of physical evidence and intelligence that the fbi agents have during the

interview which may escalate into the interrogation, which may develop from the passenger, from intelligence sources and from police sources. so they will use whatever techniques they believe will be most effective given the data that they have at the moment. and those tactics may change, and the information provided to the passengers may change as the investigation of all the passengers proceeds during the evening. >> jay black mon, what are you expecting to be the next developments in this? you have covered these situations as news stories before. when can we expect some official comment on this? >> i think what you're seeing here is standard. they take the plane to an area, which is in the vernacular known as the penalty box, which is

away from a terminal in case there is a bomb onboard. they take the passengers to a separate area so they can be questioned by the fbi. i would 245 they will question people until they're satisfied. it could be the same person, it could be a different person. but i would expect that within an hour or so, these flights will potentially be cleared obviously if there's nothing untoward going on. the passengers will reboard and be on their way. out of an abundance of caution in the current environment, this is what they have to do.

this is what they have to do. >> doi theyry move all of the luggage? the checked bags on the plane 7 37. >> the dogs check every single bag. >> do those bags get linked up to passengers? 'm wondering what the passengers are in for in terms of this hour or two on the ground or more. nay just get loaded back on the plane. typically in this situation, the airlines do their best to make the passengers comfortable.

they need a time-out, so to speak. it's something the airlines will be very cognizant of to make sure the pilots are legal, so to speak. but they are -- they will -- as you said, they will do all of their procedures to make sure that nothing untoward is on this plane. and that this is an idle threat, but they have to take every one of them seriously. >> does halifax have the capacity to put them up overnight? certainly therest in salt lake city. we know that they would be able

to put them up overnight. if they run into that situation where they've droszed into the spot where the pilot will be on duty too long. they won't be able to fly. >> halifax turned into a tourist destination. so there is -- i've been at halifax. it's a robust airport with robust facilities. the law enforcement community there is sophisticated as well. i don't necessarily agree with jay respectfully that this is going to take two or three hours. i think it's like ly these flights will be canceled for one of two reasons. one, it's a huge aircraft. and the primary function is to ensure that no surreptitious explosive device or any device

of risk is embedded anywhere in this aircraft. now how can a device like this be embedded in an aircraft? embedded by a bag zbaj handler. embedded by a mechanic who slipped by security screen. it can be embedded in so many nooks and crannies in this aircraft, it will take a substantial amount of time to clear these aircrafts relative to the threat. the same thing with the luggage. the same thing with the passengers. i think we're looking at a substantial amount of time. i think the pilots will time-out and i don't think these aircraft are going anywhere this evening. >> when you say these flights will be cancelled. when you have this air france, air bus a-380 on the ground in halifax, does that mean they would fly in a different plane at some point to take these people out? or this plane will be what takes

these passengers out of nova scotia, it will just be possibly a different flight number and scheduled as a different flight? >> well, either/or can happen, lawrence, but i believe what's happened in this case and what's most likely to happen is they will send another aircraft. >> okay. we're also joined by evans coleman, a security analyst. what do you make of this? two bomb threats phoned into two air frangs transatlantic flights today, tonight. one from los angeles international airport to paris. the other from washington dulles airport to paris. both being phoned in around the same time, around the same time. and both planes safely getting down on the ground at the nearest airport about the same time. >> yeah, look, this is obviously a case where we're acting out of an abundance of caution. it's unlikely, i think, that a

terrorist group would bomb an aircraft at least to the united states. i think what happened in paris is a lot of people are afraid and that's unfortunate side effect of what happened. hopefully this is just a hoax, but still you wonder why someone would do that. >> whether it's a hoax oar not, what happens on the investigative end about who phoned in this bomb threat? >> well, i mean, it can be challenging. because, you know, it used to be that people have fixed phone numbers, in which case you could trace back a phone very heezly. but these days with voiceover ip and what not, it becomes easier and easier for folks to spoof

other phone numbers and becomes almost impossible after a while to trace someone back 237 someone was sophisticated about it, whether they were for real, whether or not this was some kind of sick joke or whether or not this has something to do with terrorism, it's not guaranteed they can trace back the connection. if someone is properly layered their communication. >> and evan, the ability to make the bomb threat calls in an untraceable way is a pretty -- basically pretty easy thing to do at this stage in telecommunications. >> well, look, it's not easy, but it doesn't require a ph.d.. and there are kids around the world that swat each other every day and they do exactly this. that's what they're doing. they're on fis kating their communications to a point where police -- it's just not practical for them to figure out who actually was calling in these fake phone calls. so if a 17 or 18-year-old on the

internet is capable of doing something like this and getting away with it, then that tells you that the potential market for people who could have done this is pretty large. not just high-tech computer nerds. a lot of people who have the ability to do this kind of thing. >> what are you expecting by way of official comment from air france once they've got themselves in a position to be able to do that. they've got a lot at stake here, including people's confidence in the airline. there are other options to get from los angeles to paris. there's other options to get from washington to paris, than using air france. so they're under a lot of pressure tonight when they have to deal with this publicly. >> well, what's interesting, lawrence, is several months ago, there was a spate of telephonic bomb threats where people were calling in threats to airlines, many of them coming

internationally. they were flying into the united states and they were landing and being delayed. i think what air france will do is put out a statement that will say something to the effect of, out of concern and safety of our customers, we did what we thought was necessary, cooperated with law enforcement, and we will do our best to help our customers get back -- continue on their journey. i think that's all they can do. they've got to think of the safety and security of their passengers first and foremost. but this is somebody who hopefully thinks it's funny to put in a bomb threat and watch our coverage. knowing that they did this. it's something that will be taken seriously. as you well know, this is a federal crime. it's an interference with a flight, interference with a flight crew.

if they were able to trace it back, someone would be in a significant amount of trouble. >> nick, talk about what this will add to the already impact, what the paris attack, the impact they're having around the world. and what this particular possibility, the threat to air travel will mean to people outside of france now. as this tragedy and now crisis continues. >> well, this comes on top, not only of the paris terror attack, but also on the bombing of the russian plane leaving sharm also shake. it was said to have two pounds of explosives on it. it was so devastating. that's going to make everyone very nervous. i do think we have to be

careful, those of us in the media not too much to amplify what may be empty threats because we don't want to give people the capacity to disrupt aviation, not only with bombs, but also with random phone calls that they make to airlines. >> anthony roman, it strikes me that phoning in the bomb threat is not the way the islamic state or al qaeda work when it comes to attacking aircraft. they don't have any history of phoning in a bomb threat. if they're capable -- if they are trying to bring down a plane, they simply try to bring down the plane. if that's what they did on the russian flight out of egypt,

with regards to the disruptions of flights and airline services throughout the united states and through all the cooperating members of the aviation community of the international treaties, governing flight safety. anytime, and any participant in those treaties, a bomb threat is called in. the protocols must follow. whether we give these bomb threats in the press credence or not, these bomb threats will result in airline disruption. period. the protocols are absolute and have to be followed. and does not even require the cooperation of airline, although that's man dated. that's a law enforcement issue. it is the responsibility of the captain to follow those

protocols and the airlines to cooperate during those protocols. so these protocols are absolute and anytime that a flight is threatened, that flight will be grounded and all of the protocols will be followed exactly the same way. >> we're joined now by msnbc security analyst jim cavanaugh by phone. and jim, i've been wondering, in our history of these phoned in bomb threats to airplanes and the airplane then safely lands at a place like salt laks or a place like halifax, about two hours after takeoff, have we ever actually found a bomb on one of these planes that's been landed this way? >> we've found bombs on plane, but after a threat, i don't recall any. there's been bombs on planes and threats on planes. there has been bombs found after called in bomb threats over the

years. so people say well, a guy wouldn't call them in. that's absolutely not true. we've had many cases where people did plant a bomb. the weather underground, bombs in federal buildings. >> yeah, but the big, big, big difference there was their mission was to not injury anyone. that was their actual mission. i'm talking about in the modern age of terrorism, especially al qaeda islamic state terrorism. the telephone bomb threat strikes me as unusual, and it would seem to me if there was an intent to blow up the plane, why make a phone call? why not let whatever you did or planned happen? >> exactly right. they would love to blow the plane out of the sky but anthony

is right, they would to do a thorough search of the luggage here. the russians reported this morning thatted they found the explosive residue on the luggage. and so that's an indicator that a two-point bomb or the equivalent could have been, may have been in the cargo hole of that egyptian flight. so, you know, luggage, people can get it. a bomb is not that large. so all that luggage will have to be thoroughly searched. the aircraft has to be thoroughly searched. and it's going to take a long time. and i agree that, you know, most likely they would try to get on the airplane. given what we've all seen in the world the last ten days, this is going to be the most thorough search of those airplanes you've

ever seen. >> i think one idea is, as you say, it was that this was called in. that's certainly not islamic state style. but the other addty is that these are planes that left the u.s. i've flown a lot of air france flights to paris from all kinds of places. security, if you were trying to plant a bomb on a plane on an air france plane coming from paris, you would not do it from the u.s. security security in the u.s. tends to be very good. if you're flying an air france plane from yemen, then security is going to be -- you're in a much better position to bribe somebody to get that bomb onboard. so that strikes me as another thing that seems unusual in this episode. >> let's go to that. evan coleman, this would churn on exactly how much confidence we have in security arrangements

at los angeles international airport and at dulles airport in washington, and all of the personnel working there who have access to these airplanes. how would we assess? that? >> well, i tell you, it's not an easy task, but let's put it this way. the folks that work at u.s. airports, they do go tlug through a fairly rigorous streening. this is not sharm el sheikh. again, i think it's very important to emphasize two factors here. number one, terrorists usually seek to bomb planes headed to the united states, or to a western country. number two, you're right, bomb threats are an anachronism of the 1970s. that's not something that terrorists group really almost of any kind do anymore. you do wonder why that would pop-up here. this doesn't really add up to something that would be in any way linked to what happened in paris. >> anthony what is your confidence level in the security

in terms of -- and the personnel involved in -- who have access to aircraft at los angeles international airport, and at dulles airport? >> you know, lawrence, i again have to respectfully disagree with mr. christoph and your other guest relative to the ability of the potential to get 5 bomb on a u.s. aircraft on u.s. soil. i think mr. cavanaugh will remember the case in hartsfield where for five years a baggage handler for one of the major airlines had been in cahoots with a former airline employee and was smuggling hundreds of weapons, including semiautomatic weapons that were fully load ed in the passenger compartment overhead bins and in the cargo hold. and these weapons were being shipped to chicago and new york for an extended period of time

before this gun run ring was thwarted. it would be just as easy to get an explosive device on a plane using the same methods they did. now, dulles has one of the most successful interception rates of weapons and contraband going on aircraft. the real problem is the airside of the airport where the baggage handlers, the lean people are, the cargo is being loaded. i always believed and had been citing for quite a long time that's our weak link. it really needs some improvement. >> yeah. i mean, over the years, i read certain stories in local los angeles media about some of the security weaknesses at l.a.x. people have worried about in terms of the access to the aircraft there, but no such reports in recent -- the last few years.

jim cavanaugh, your assessment of that, about exactly how secure are u.s. airports tonight in particular, l.a.x. and dulles in terms of people who have access to the aircraft. >> well, i think we are more secure, as it was pointed out, than africa, the middle east and sharm also shake. we have more rigorous screening. i think we're much better. but anthony said it cannot be penetrated. the other point i would make is that it's likely a hoax. someone building on world events, but some things we also have to pay attention to is sometimes a girlfriend, an associate of a person who will do an evil act finds out about it.

people automatically assume that the caller is the bomb placer. sometimes it is not. it's a relative, a girl frernd. someone who doesn't want to see the act go through. searching, going through everything, hopefully they find nothing. this is not how they would act or al qaeda. they' much more diabolical, much more deadly. they have much more access to other parts of the world. and just crowds of people like we've seen in paris. so it doesn't feel, doesn't look like it at the moment, but it's the only thing we can do. i think what aviation has to do is make security even better, even tighter. to be sure that stuff does not penetrate. >> yeah, that's a very good point, that this kind of call

would be made by someone who actually was trying to prevent it as opposed to someone who was just kind of gleefully announcing it in hopes of it succeeding. jay blackmon, what can we expect, do you think, in terms of -- again, i'm coming back to this. we basically have virtually no official information released yesterday on this from air france, and so what time dog you expect on this? how long basically will we wait before we get just a basing statement from air france about it? >> i think air france has confirmed both their flights have landed safety, both in halifax and in salt lake. i would also expect potentially a statement from the fbi acknowledging that they've sernled the flights. we may hear through other federal sources that the

all-clear has been given. but they're going to take their time. they need to. and to jim's point, i think that this may be the new normal for the next few months, or even the next few years where you see a lot more of this. and reacting the way that they do valely the only thing that you can do. there is no other choice. they're going to land those planes and have them searched. the one concern that i have is the more that this happens, the more attention it's given, the more frequently we will see them. that's a major concern, both for the airlines and for the government. >> we're joined by a reporter who is an expert on the islamic state.

what's your reaction with what we've seen of develop on these aircraft? >> i think they're being judicious. hopefully it does turn out to be a false apardon me. i think in light of this event and another false alarm we had today? germany, we have to be kashs to make shoor we're not playing into islamic state's hands by enlisting fear, which is their motive to generate these kinds of responses. >> the trick here is balancing maybe our older responses to these situations can't continue, or have to be adjusted. when you look at the dynamics of this, we do hours of coverage of these flights that could turn out to be a hoax by a crazy teenager, we don't b know. so they have to do this for the security of the aircraft.

it has to be something the islamic state is happy to see. >> absolutely. when they conduct their attacks they're hoping to create panic. we absolutely need to have the highest level of security and be cautious, especially in the direct wake of events like occurred in paris. but on the other hand, we need to make sure we don't give the impegs that we're being shook or panicking over their actions. and i think it's evaluating this threat and seeing what goes on in the future, we can make sure that this doesn't become the new normal. >> we've just gotten the word that the dulles flight that is on the ground in nova scotia has been cleared, or is going to be cleared and is expected now to take off within two hours. a couple of hours in nova scotia. so jay blackmon's time on that seems to be just about right. i'm going to have to just thank everyone for this emergency coverage of this situation.

thank you very much for joining us for the evening. anthony roman, thank you, jim safely on the ground. one in nova scotia, one in salt lake city. stay with us for continuing coverage tonight. good evening from paris. i'm chris hayes on a day when the investigation into the brutal attacks here has focused on the response to those attacks keeps widening. a new threat shut down a huge sporting event in germany, a soccer stadium in hannover, germany, was evacuated after what was described by german police as a credible threat 90 minutes before kickoff, a friendly match between germany and the netherlands expected to begin approximately at 8:45 p.m.