tv Caught on Camera MSNBC March 26, 2016 2:00pm-3:01pm PDT
king of jungle. why don't you want to just ask somebody? if you're a couple, you fight over directions. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. oh ohhhhh it's what you do. ohhhhhh! do you have to do that right in my ear? good saturday to you. i am ari melber here at msnbc world headquarters in new york city. it is the day of democratic caucuses. voters in three states caucusing today. washington, alaska and hawaii. here's what we know right now because we're going to have results coming in. washington has 118 delegates at stake, hawaii 35, alaska about 20. now, we can start with washington state. you take a look at what do we know? well, the doors are basic a closed. 5% in and, wow, it is early but
it is big for bernie sanders with 73% there, hillary clinton with 26%. this is a state that bernie sanders is supposed to do well in, but according to the very, very early call here, too early to call obviously, the early returns, a big lead. now let's take a look at another delegate count in alaska. with just 14% in, first time we're telling you this today, 82% with bernie sanders, a huge, huge lead there in that democratic caucus. but again, because it is so early, our official nbc projection, too early to call. we are also watching the democratic caucus in hawaii. doors there will close in just under two hours. looking at the democratic primary, this has been the theme. when you put all the dealts together, the unpledged and super delegates, hillary clinton has that very, very big lead. the candidates looking ahead to the next contest. we can tell you bernie sanders is planning some rallies and we have a lot going on to keep you updated on today.
cal perry has been out in washington state and has been following the caucus there. let me see if we can go right out to cal perry. what can you tell us today? >> reporter: hey, ari. so we had a packed house behind us. we are at west seattle high school, i'm sure you're familiar with the area. i know you grew up here. to keep with the baseball theme that we saw last night, that huge, huge rally in downtown seattle where bernie sanders saw almost 15,000 people at that rally, this is like batting practice for bernie sanders. this is a place where his message plays very well. keep in mind this is the home of the minimum wage debate, this is the home of marijuana legalization, so this is a place where his message plays very well. now, here at the caucus, really a three sort of phased caucus. you come in, there's an initial vote. then folks have three minutes to talk where they try to sway the undecided votes into their camp or to try to switch people from hillary clinton to bernie sanders and vice versa.
and then there's that final vote. and those are the results that we're waiting for now. i have to tell you a pretty informed group of people, it takes some courage certainly to stand up in front of your friends and neighbors and that's exactly what you do here at the caucus. you're talking to people in your neighborhood trying to persuade them one candidate or the other. so we saw a lot of informed debate happening in the caucus. ari. >> and briefly, cal, one of the things we saw last night was 15,000 people there at safeco field in downtown seattle. the early projections, again, it's 5:00 p.m. here on the east coast so we have the first projections saying too early to call, but a huge lead for bernie sanders in washington state from the early numbers as well as i mentioned that crowd last night. from your time on the ground there, were you also seeing the indications of lopsided sanders' support? >> yeah, frankly there's a buzz. there's a sanders buzz going around. a lot of this seems to be delegate defense. hillary clinton needs about a thousand more delegates before she can lock this down.
if bernie sanders can keep that sort of 2-1 or 3-1 delegate advantage in states like washington, in states like alaska, maybe it's enough to keep her from getting that number to make it a very interesting convention. in my short time here in seattle, i got here late last night. i was able to walk around a little bit downtown as you were broadcasting that speech live. there is definitely a bernie sanders buzz. if that's partly because people don't think he's electable and this is the long good-bye, it speaks volumes about his message and how popular his message is here, especially in the northwest. >> cal perry at a caucus sight as all this news unfolds. thank you, and we'll check back with you. i want to tell you who we have for our special election coverage. msnbc national correspondent joy reid, michelle goldberg and in vermont former democratic party chair and former governor, howard dean, also a clinton supporter. we'll talk to other people throughout the night because this is a night of results. governor dean, starting with you, what do you make of washington state. that's a place where bernie seems to be doing well from our
early returns here, where hillary clinton is struggling, where you and other progressives who have run for president have done well. the clinton folks said no disrespect to washington state, but it doesn't matter in the long term when you look at hillary's math. >> that probably is true. i got a significant number of delegates in washington state after i dropped out of the race. i think i had more delegates from washington state than any place else, even d.c. and vermont where i won, although that was also after i dropped out of the race. so it is a very progressive state. democrats are very, very progressive in washington state. and because it's a caucus state that also helps bernie. so i do expect him to do very, very well and i do expect him to do very well in alaska and hawaii. and i think he's going to do well in wisconsin too. he's got a long row to hoe, though. this is 300 pledged delegates is a very big thing to overcome
before you've even gotten to pennsylvania, new york and california, which are going to be pretty even. >> a long road and yet, michelle, it's one bernie sanders seems eager to be on. in the corn are of our screen we've got him getting ready to speak in wisconsin, an important state. last night he spoke to a big crowd and he talked about why he is well positioned to beat donald trump. that's the live shot of a rally that we expect. take a listen to bernie sanders, though, last night. >> poll after poll shows us that in matchups with donald trump -- don't worry, trump will not become president. she was beating him by 12 points. we were beating him by 20 points. don't let anybody tell you that hillary clinton is the strongest democratic candidate to take on the republicans, it is not true. >> okay. so i think that bernie sanders should stay in the race and, you
know, in no way would encourage him to drop out. i think he's building up leverage within the party for these issues. but this is a ridiculous argument, right? the argument that he's ahead of donald trump in head-to-head matchups now and also the kind of related argument that he has higher favorability ratings than i think any of the candidates, higher net favorability ratings doesn't take into account the fact that he has been subject to basically no negative advertising. he's been subject to, you know, hardly any opposition research. hillary clinton has been very -- has kind of tread very gingerly around attacking bernie sanders. you know, bernie sanders was an elector for the socialist workers party. a party that calls for the elimination of the military. and on the one hand, i wouldn't -- you know, it was 30 years ago. that is something that would be just murderous in a general election. >> you're talking about the politics, the straight politics
of that. >> and none of this stuff has been aired. you know, maybe none of it -- and maybe none of it needs to be aired because he still seems to be very, very unlikely to close the gap with hillary clinton. but, you know, so he should stick -- i think he should stick around. i think he's had a total saluatory effect on this race, in thames erms of hillary clint. but i hope people watching this don't get the idea that this is going to happen. >> joy, look at the national numbers. if your arguing against hillary clinton is how will she do against the republican likely nominee, well, here she is against trump. 54-36. here she is against cruz, the other most potential nominee under delegate math, 51-42. the only warning spot is from kasich who actually interestingly does surge ahead. but it doesn't seem when you look at those numbers today,
bloomberg politics march poll, it doesn't seem to be the greatest argument to say hillary clinton can't hands these guys. >> and i think michelle made the most important point. kasich is somebody who has been subject to almost no negative advertising, a little on the republican side. act a campaign, you can't know what someone's unfavorable versus favorables would be in the fall. and even bernie sanders' own supporters are highly resistant to any information that would suggest his lack of electability, meaning that any attempt to broach any of the issues from his past would be met with such a incredible torrent of negativity from his supporters that no one dares even bring it up. even a rather mild story in "the new york times" that talked about his time in a kabutz was met with just horror and cries of anti-semanti-semitism.
so the clinton campaign has been i think smart not to advertise against him. they don't want to alienate his supporters. we no idea how bernie sanders would fare in a fall campaign because no one has seen what negative advertising would even look like. he's fighting a no-front war. >> so these are the trump numbers we can put up against sanders. it is 58-34. that is a made-up number? as the analysts here are suggesting is that a little skewed or is that as a democrat that may support clinton, that's a nice backup plan. >> in some ways all of these numbers are meaningless. we're not in a general election campaign. the only person who's really in a general election campaign is hillary clinton. to a lesser extent donald trump because the elders of his party are running against him as hard as they can. but nobody else has been hit. joy is right, nobody else has been hit with negative
advertising. kasich number is not real. ted cruz is a terrible number for ted cruz because he hasn't really been vetted either. he hasn't had much negative attacks. so i would say as most polls are that are five, six months out, these are very entertaining, great for us to talk about and pretty meaningless. >> i want to mention that as we're discussing this in the lower right-hand corner we've had some nice zoom closeups of the homemade signs for bernie at the wisconsin event, including wisconsin loves bernie, which is kind of a classic message, michelle, but also bernie, help us, you're our own hope. a princess laea quote from "star wars." >> there are a lot of people who feel very bleak about the state of american politics. at best what hillary is promising is kind of a continuation of the obama administration, so continuation of the status quo. hopefully being more strategic about a few things, you know, i
think hoping that some of the kind of really fervid right wing obstructionism will be burst by the trump-induced implosion of the party but is not proposing a political revolution, like bernie sanders is. so there's a lot of people out there for whom what's going on in this country is intolerable. >> i think probably the most important thing that bernie sanders' campaign has done, and i think it has been an important campaign for the democrats, he's done something that they needed and they have needed for 30 years, which is to crack the code of what it is that white working class voters want and need. white working class voters have been alienated from the democratic party really since the mid-1960s. what bernie sanders has discovered is that white working class voters who locate the blame for their condition on wall street, who locate it with big business, that those people can be addressed with a message that is socially liberal. i think that's something that
democrats have not believed for a really long time. howard dean actually tried to advance that message as well. bernie sanders has proved that particularly for white working class voters and for young white voters before they have reached the age where they're in the workforce, right, people who are young, this is a message that works. >> and i want to build on that. we have some new numbers i want to get right to. we're continuing to watch the returns come in here from washington state as well as alaska. we'll start with washington here. still early, 5% in, 74% lead we saw earlier here in the hour is still holding up there. 74%-26%. over in alaska, we now have 43% in. too early to call technically, but with 43% of the votes in there in the caucus, bernie sanders with a 79% edge over hillary clinton showing that these caucuses as they have been earlier in this primary calendar very good for bernie sanders. we're going to head back to the panel. governor dean, i'm going to bring you in on the other side. >> i've just got a quick question on this poll.
i see 79%. that's 81 votes and hillary has 48? how many people are caucusing in alaska? >> we'll put alaska back up there. we'll bring that back to howard dean's question. 79%, 181 votes. well, 181 in the caucus. we'll check on what that reflects because i would expect it to be more than that. eagle-eyed howard dean digging into the numbers. and we'll have more on the other side of that. what i also want to tell folks straight ahead on this election saturday, there is a hard delegate math planned for bernie sanders when you look down the road. we're going to see what would his potential path to nomination look like and i want to tell you two big events coming up wednesday on msnbc, 7:00 p.m. eastern, chuck todd will have a town hall with ohio governor john kasich. at 8:00 p.m. eastern chris matthews has donald trump in green bay, wisconsin, live. two big town halls. that's wednesday night on msnbc. we'll be right back.
welcome back to msnbc, the place for politics. washington state the big prize today with 118 delegates up for grabs. there are around 7,000 voting precincts. voters are caucusing at schools and community centers. you can see some shots there. bernie sanders has of course done well in these types of races with voters taking face to face and oaring being key. the white house correspondent for buzz feed is live for us in washington. tell us how the caucus process was unfolding today. >> reporter: there hasn't been many reports of caucus problems as we've seen all over the country. i did a story about thisseler this cycle. this has just been a brutally terrible cycle for caucuses. before the break governor dean was mentioning the turnout in alaska. the early results of that turnout in alaska is very, very high. that's another example of where
there have been reports of, you know, fire marshals clearing rooms out and having to move things around and hastily rejigger things. that's sort of been the story line of caucuses this cycle. that is not what appears to be the story -- early story in washington yet. it seems like right now things are going pretty smoothly here. >> you mentioned that and for viewers who were watching before, governor dean was point out how the numbers looked and we'll go back to that a little later. but in alaska, one of the numbers we were looking at in that lower corner there, the 181, those are state delegate equivalents so they're not 181 people, it's 181 state delegate equivalents. you might remember that from iowa. to ballpark it in 2008, that state had a total of 8,000 people come out and caucus. we don't have that raw number yet. but again that's why you need -- it takes a village to deal with a caucus, evan. but before i bring back in michelle, joy and governor dean, the other question i want to ask you is at a basic level in washington state, which is a
blue, basically going on green state. you have green party members on the city council, a lot of progressives, why do you think this has been such a great place for bernie sanders and is it, as we were discussing on our panel, without regard to his political possibilities or with excitement that as he was saying last night he can do well in a general? >> well, look, i don't want to know that annoying thing where reporters cite one anecdote to describe an entire story line but also i'm going to do that. >> go ahead and do it. >> last night i'm walking around downtown seattle and this is a mere hours after this story of the bird that landed on sanders' podium that blew up twitter, the birdie sanders. hours afterwards i see a couple walking down the street in downtown seattle and one of them is dressed like a bird and says birdie sanders. this is sanders country. they love him here, they have a socialist on their city council. his message resonates. they have $15 minimum wage here. this is sanders country.
this is the kind of place that sanders has done well across the country. this is the purest example of it with some of the best seafood around too, so frankly this is probably the best of the sanders country honestly in terms of food and, you know, views and everything like that. but this is not -- it's not too surprising. but it was pretty eye-opening to see how into sanders seattle specifically really is. >> stay with us, evan, i bring back howard dean and joy and michelle goldberg and joy reid. so you look at the bird moment that evan mentions that we were playing. this is not just a political thing. sometimes we get lost in our own little conversation. the internet across the country loved this moment. >> i loved that moment. it was like, you know, it was so kind of sweet and magical, particularly when juxtaposed with the aggressive, sore did, vulgar vitality of the rest of the news cycle.
it's lovely. bernie sanders is lovely. i understand why people gravitate to him, particularly in washington where i imagine you look around at the $15 minimum wage in seattle and some of these other policies and say why can't we do this nationally. people, i think, who have doubts about sanders' electability, as i do, it's partly because i think that most of the country doesn't look very much like where i live, you know, in brooklyn, it doesn't look very much like seattle or washington state, but of course when that's your -- when that's your community, you know, i think it's easy to imagine that there's a bigger progressive consensus than i think there really is. >> i want to also add to our mix, a national political reporter for the "boston globe" who has been covering the bernie sanders campaign and is out in washington as well. excuse me, in washington, d.c., the other washington, as we say. what are your thoughts on the conversation we're having, the idea of whether bernie has enthusiasm or also has some sort of path? >> well, there's certainly
enthusiasm. i think that there was a lot of discussion about the magic of that bird and i think that he would need some of that magic in order for the path to the nomination to look clearer than it does right now, because it is a very difficult one to see. although, i mean just looking at the early returns that you've been showing, ari, those are the kinds of margins he's going to have to win if there is some very narrow path for him. >> and you talk about the path. howard dean, i want to raek from the cook political report, a reputable nonpartisan source, although this particular analysis has been passed around by clinton partisans. they say clinton has a pledged delegate lead of 1238 to 924 meaning sanders would need to win 58% of all remaining pledged delegates to even draw even by june with clinton. so again, as we reported accurately about both the lead he seems to have in those states right now, three more democratic states here, and yet that would take a lot to add up to him being close for the convention.
>> yeah, but i think we've got to be a little careful not to bury bernie sanders sitting here in our tv studios. you know, the voters end up deciding and the voters have decided a lot of things this campaign stretch already, mostly on the other side, that every one of us has gotten wrong. so i don't think we ought to too quickly call the election over. i think that voters have the final say, as bernie himself will say. i'm a hillary person. i believe she's going to be the next president of the united states. but i also want to be a little careful and i want to be fair to the voters yet. i don't think that bernie's absolutely out of it. >> and, annie, to that point what else do you see bernie sanders doing or needing to do when he makes these cases? because the big rallies he had in portland and seattle, huge audiences, they are clearly helping with what we're seeing in the early returns right now in some of these states. but they were, to be clear, the exact economic inequality stump speech that he's been giving.
>> yeah, it is the same speech. you know, what he needs is to win big states by big margins. and, you know, i appreciate governor dean's point there, but the reality is he's just running out of calendar at this point. i mean tonight, for example, if he wins every single delegate, he still does not make up the gap between himself and clinton. now, the good news for sanders is he is going to do very well, expected to do very well not only in these three states tonight but in the next two states coming down the pike. then you kind of start running into the last big delegate states. you get to new york and then you get to pennsylvania and then finally you end up with california. and if he can somehow keep this sort of these types of margins that you're seeing in the very, very early returns, you know, then maybe that path becomes -- moves from magic to sort of not quite magic, somewhere in
between reality and magic. so it gets a little easier. so i think, again, if you're a bernie sanders fan out there, you need to not just look at the states he's winning but you have to really look at the margins, pau because unlike the republican contest, there is no winner take all, it's always a proportional contest. i was talking to some of bernie sanders' top aides about this. i believe it was tad devine and he was saying, oh, gosh, i really do kind of wish that the democrats had this winner-take-all idea because that would be real helpful for us. >> well, the rules can consequential. let's look at the individual states that are voting today. there we have in alaska with 43% in, a 79% lead with bernie sanders there. that is counting up those delegate equivalents. let's take a look at another state here, we've got washington, which we've been talking about, 74%.
those are also a type of delegate, district delegates is the number. so the 1,000 you see in the lower corner is not raw voters. we expect tens of thousands of those. but again two states too early to call according to nbc but large leads right now we're seeing with bernie sanders. no question about that. we're looking at potentially getting a lot more information here in the coming minutes. we have a call, bernie sanders is the winner of the alaska democratic caucus. 5:27 p.m. on the east coast, nbc now projecting bernie sanders is the winner of the alaska democratic caucus. 20 delegates up for grabs there. nbc news can project bernie sanders the winner. we've got three states we're watching for votes and one now is in with a projected victory for bernie sanders. that is the news here. what we're going to do is take a quick break and come back on the other side. you're watching msnbc, the place for politics.
5:30 on the east coast and we have a projected winner in today's caucus in alaska. bernie sanders. nbc projects the winner of the alaska caucus, 20 delegates up for grabs there, six already awarded, more to come potentially. we're also watching washington state where folks have been going to the caucus today. it is too early to call but we can show you bernie sanders with a big lead, only 5% in, but 74% of those going for bernie sanders inspect washington state where he held that big 15,000 person rally last night. we're going to be watching all of this as we get these returns in right now on what is another democratic election day. we have a big panel with us here on set. i have joy reed, michelle goldberg and nick confessore. we have howard dean in our remote camera there from vermont. so we've got a lot of people. i want to start with john allen
who join us new to the panel. what do you think of this victory there with bernie sanders that we just projected. >> it's going to be a big victory it looks like for alaska for him and probably in washington today. i haven't seen anything from hawaii yet. this is going to be one of the best days for bernie sanders on the campaign trail. particular particularly if that lead in washington holds up. he could walk out of there with 59 or 60 delegates from the pledged category, which is a huge -- and when i say 59 or 60, i mean net 59 or 60. >> nick. >> i was going to say, you know, it kind of echos a point the sanders folks have been making. if the calendar had been ordered in a different way. if there wasn't the s.e.c. primary of those southern states swept by hillary clinton, there would have been less air sucked out of bernie sanders' campaign in the previous months and today is going to be a great day for him. the order matters a lot for momentum. that's what i think. >> momentum matters an incredible amounting, j, joy.
people say oh, my god. as soon as he was beat back a little bit, it is true and here we are in the media that are talking about the stories that we ourselves write, the narratives that we ourselves craft, but it is fair to say the mood in the political class and certainly the media was she's got it, she's got an insurmountable lead, quote unquote, governor dean cautioned against that already tonight. but super delegates do exist. >> but even without super delegates she has a lead that is substantially more than barack obama had over her in 2008. i think what's remarkable here is the reason how everything from 2008 is upside down now. so you had a front-loaded primary that had a lot of caucuses early, in february and march. by this time in the calendar in 2008, a lot more contests had taken place. so the exact same strategy that bernie sanders is using worked for barack obama because he built up all of those caucus wins early on, so by the time hillary clinton won the big states like pennsylvania, it was actually too late. he built up incremental,
incremental wins that inched him toward a 100-point plus delegate load and she couldn't beat it. now you've got the upside down case. he was winning all the black votes in the south and now she's winning them in places like nevada, in places like south carolina, north carolina, places like that and he's winning the white vote. he's winning mostly white states, which was her strategy to try to catch up in 2008. in looking just at the calendar going forward, i only count five states, new york, maryland, pennsylvania, california and new jersey that have more than 100 delegates on offer. so he literally has the opposite problem. he's got to win in these states that have precisely his biggest achilles heel, lots of black voters, lots of hispanic voters, not a critical mass of white voters and that is what he is yogz in order to win. >> i would actually push back against the idea that it was the rules and the order that has determined the outcome. i think it's demographics that have determined the outcome. even if these three states had been early on, there would have been a lot of really negative stories for the clinton campaign but it wouldn't have changed the
fact that her voters are her voters. you know, when it got to the south, whether the south had voted early or late, there's no -- i don't see any evidence that kind of these wins for bernie would have turned big parts of those populations. >> i don't think it's turning the populations, i agree with you. i think the fact is that she just has the black and brown vote and she has voters, particularly voters over 50. but the point is the ability to close the gap is what's affected, not who would have voted for her and who would have voted for him but it's very difficult to close that gap now because she has built up that big state, big delegate lead and it's just hard for him to close it. he doesn't have enough math left. >> part of what she's doing is leaning into that on politics. she was just saying she's got 2.6 million votes more than bernie sanders regardless of what happens today and she's gotten more total votes than donald trump. then she leans into substance and tries to lay out in a week of terror, in a week of big global issues, nato and donald
trump saying maybe we need less nato, she's trying to step up and show that she both is politically headed towards the nomination and substantively ready to talk about it. i want to play some of that and get john allen on the other side. here she is, hillary clinton, talking about what she sees as the contrast with her potential republican rivals. >> america doesn't cower in fear or hide behind walls. we lead and we succeed. when republican candidates like ted cruz call for treating american muslims like criminals and for racially profiling predominantly muslim neighborhoods, it's wrong, it's counterproductive, it's dangerous. slogans aren't a strategy, loose cannons tend to misfire. what america needs is strong, smart, steady leadership to wage and win this struggle. if you see bigotry, oppose it. if you see violence, condemn it. if you see a bully, stand up to
him. >> jonathan allen, she's naming ted cruz, she's talking about bullying in a direct reference to donald trump, what is she doing there. >> let me say there are a couple of things going on. if she thought she was in trouble in the democratic primary, you wouldn't see her pivoting to national security, an issue where so many democrats on the left feel like she's too much of a hawk. so number one when you look at how she feels about this race, that's an excellent window into that. number two, what she's doing with trump and cruz is saying that there could be too much -- too much bravado, too much machismo, too much on the national security front. she's positioned herself very nicely for where she wants to be between bernie sanders, who's more dovish than these guys on the right who are suggesting things and she's saying they don't comport with the american way of life and american way of viewing both domestic policy and national security, international
policy. >> and she's doing that at a time where i don't know that donald trump ever gets that defensive on policy. he seems to be running a campaign premising that policy doesn't have to matter but he did do an interview at "the new york times" today trying to substantiate some of the more outlandish arguments he has made. there aren't a lot of republicans who think we shouldn't have a strong nato, for example. what i want to do is do a reset. bernie sanders is the projected winner in the alaska democratic caucus. it looks like a significant victory. with 43% of the vote in, sanders has 79%, clinton down to 21%. the caucus vote rich washington state is too early to call. but again a 79% big bernie lead. we'll watch all these returns as they come in. hawaii also coming in today. we're expecting bernie sanders himself to take the stage in madison, wisconsin, at the top of the hour. we're going to show you that. next, we are going to give a look to the gop side and an escalating feud between donald
let me be clear, this national enquirer story is garbage. it is complete and utter lies. it is a tabloid smear. and it is a smear that has come from donald trump and his henchmen. this garbage does not belong in politics. >> welcome back to our saturday election coverage. that was ted cruz denying a "national enquirer" story alleging political aub raoperat have gathered stories about affairs. political operatives are compiling an explosive dirt file on the texas senator. the article includes blurred pictures of five women, suggesting they had relationships with cruz but not
naming anyone. still, two women came out to deny the allegations in addition to cruz's denial. for his part, trump said that he had, quote, nothing to do with planting the story and added the "enquirer" was right about o.j. simpson, john edwards and many others. i certainly hope they are not right about lyin' ted cruz, end quote. they have correctly reported some stories like the edwards affair, but the tabloid generally has a terrible record for accuracy. we at nbc do not treat it as a reputable source and only started reporting on this story on air after the candidates brought it up themselves. let me underscore that distinction with some specific examples. there are plenty of other political stories in the "enkwoir "e "enquir "enquirer" we're not covering, allegations about candidates in both parties. they are not a story because of the evidence they might be true, they are a story because like so much else in this campaign the candidates are loudly, angrily
fighting about them. hallie jackson covers the ted cruz campaign for nbc. hallie, is this the end or the beginning of this particular scuffle. >> i think ted cruz, of course, hoping it will be the end. he came out, you played some of that sound. he very forcefully denied this and pivoted to hitting donald trump for what he called essentially sleazy and slimy behavior, calling it childish. cruz pivoting to talk about the wisconsin race, the next big primary coming up april 5th. it's shaping up to be a real battleground. you're seeing ted cruz begin to position himself in order to compete for delegates as the calendar heads to the midwest and then to the east. what does that mean? it means instead of that evangelical message that he's been hitting since iowa and before that that he often talks about, you'll still see that but you'll see him draw in a couple of other stools of the republican party. you've got the economic part, the social part and the national security part. cruz has modified his stump speech a little bit to be a little more equalized when he's talking about those three policy
areas and it's part of his move to appeal to some of the republicans and some of the conservatives in states like wisconsin, in states like new york and new jersey where this race is headed next. >> stay with us, we've got our entire saturday election panel with us. i want to bring in first governor howard dean. there's plenty of things that go down in campaigns. do you see this as one that is likely to affect the outcome or the relationship between these two people who may need each other down the line? >> it could. generally speaking you're better off if you don't discuss this sort of thing and that's what they have been doing. i thought your disclaimer was actually a very good one. and i respect msnbc for not trafficking in this kind of stuff, except if the candidates throw these charges at each other, that does become news. if ted cruz ignored this entirely, i don't think the mainstream media, respectable mainstream media would be talking about it. and so these two guys can't resist dragging themselves down into the mud.
i do think that can have a long-term effect on their campaign in the general election. >> certainly the cruz-trump ticket is out of the question now, i think. i don't think we're going to have that. in a real sense, howard, and it's obvious, right, but the hopes of some kind of a brokered settlement or ending to this drama with donald trump, somehow the party would sort it out and get together with him just seem harder and harder every day that something like this happens, right? it just seems harder and harder to imagine that there will be some coming to grips or coming to turns or passing around of the peace pipe in july in philadelphia. >> you know, it physically -- >> i agree that's out of the question. >> it almost physically hurts me to defend ted cruz but i kind of do want to here. i actually don't think he could have just ignored this and let it dissipate. you know, one of the things that donald trump has been so masterful at is using social media to inject all sorts of really, you know, sordid things
that did not rise to the level of regular political discussion, so there was no way, i think, that just kind of gate keepers could have said this isn't a serious story when donald trump, who's the leading candidate for the republican nomination, is out there, you know, talking about it, is out there attacking ted cruz's wife, you know, when his allies are accusing him of all of this. there was just no way for ted cruz to make this go away without -- >> michelle, wouldn't you argue, though, that he should have a spokesperson do this and not himself? >> hallie -- let me bring in hallie at that point. you're with this campaign every day. you've been leading questioning of cruz and his exact message about whether he could support donald trump has shifted. talk about what you've heard from michelle goldberg regarding the predicament as well as howard dean's point. >> i think overall when you look at something like this, it's a difficult position. obviously it's tough for ted
cruz because he wanted to come out and his campaign wanted to put this to bed and say this is not true, this is not happening. the broader question is how you look at this republican race and ted cruz still not saying that he will not support donald trump as the nominee if he were to get the nomination. and this is after a week that we saw as was noted. trump attacking heidi cruz, ted cruz's wife. he's viscerally angry. you see it on his face, you see him emotional. you see him authentically upset about this and upset about this line of attack and furious at donald trump. so i want to talk about what's happened over the last 48 hours because there has been somewhat of a shift or at least a distancing from trump in regards to this republican pledge we've been talking about. you heard him on thursday when we spoke simply saying that donald trump will not be the nominee. then you heard him come out yesterday and he said i find it difficult to support somebody who is attacking my wife and who is attacking my family, and i'm paraphrasing here. and then today ted cruz tweeted and said donald trump is not a
republican. and that is -- >> right. >> a forceful statement. it's not that donald trump is not conservative, it's that donald trump is not republican and he's certainly no conservative so one wonders if this is -- >> hallie, you flagged that and i want to ask joy reid, this is what matters in politics and in law. categories matter. saying i will support the republican is different than saying i will support donald trump is different than saying donald trump is a republican. hallie flags just today as we're watching these new results on the democratic side, you've got another shift, a small but perceivable shift in now ted cruz views donald trump. >> one of the two boxes that ted cruz ticks that makes him the only sort of viable alternative to donald trump is not only does he have the evangelical, particularly frequent church attending white evangelical voters, he also is the candidate of movement conservatives, the eric erickson crowd, the crowd that cares about conservatism as a thing as distinct from the republican party. there has been a big push within that group of conservatives to
challenge the establishment of the republican party for accommodating and capitulating to donald trump. i have seen that capitulation firsthand. we had on "meet the press" mitch mcconnell come on and refuse to walk away from donald trump. you've had the speaker i have sn that capitulating firsthand. we saw the speaker of the house criticize donald trump but none of them is saying they will not support donald trump if he is the nominee. and that capitulation has created a lot of uncertainty and anger. he is also now representing movement conservatives and they want the establishment to walk away from donald trump. they're not doing it so far. >> i want to thank hally jackson and governor dean here. bernie sanders the projected winner in the alaska democratic
caucus today. you can see it there in washington, as well. >> thank you. >> we have a pretty interesting lopsided start but it's too early to call with 12% and too early to call. if you look at alaska, of course, as i mentioned, bernie the winner there with 20 delegates up for grabs. also we'll watch wisconsin where bernie sanders is going to rally. a lot of folks you see on the screen there. they're ready, he will be on screen. could be a major pivot point for the candidates. stay with us.
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nbc projecting him the winner of the alaskan democratic caucus. with 9% of the caucus-goers, and when bernie sanders comes out on stage we'll bring it to you live. of course his first remarks since we called the alaska caucus moments ago. and we have michelle goldberg, on anne lindsky from washington, d.c. as we wait for him to come out, he is not going to say anything that different. and yet what he will be able to do, joy, is say here i am. i won another state, maybe one of three today. the projections look very solid. and the folks have been managing expectations, and we're ten days away from wisconsin, i'll put one out here before the responses with the live pictures there. she is only down six points, 50-44 in the latest march 22nd
poll. >> i think for bernie sanders, this of course is going to be more fuel for what has already been incredible fundraising for him, strictly small dollar fundraising, anything to keep people believing he can close that delegate gap, that there is a path to victory. i think he has raised something like $140 million, which is really a large amount. and that he will be able to keep going, california, the big state where they're really pinning their hopes on the sanders campaign of doing really, really well there. >> and wisconsin, we should mention, the democrats care a lot about it. they have a senate race there, russ feingold, they're battling over a number of issues. right now the supreme court nomination has been one that we've seen and your papers got a report on that. >> i mean, look, wisconsin has been the crucible in a lot of
these national debates, so i think it is appropriate to look at the showdown between bernie sanders and hillary clinton. he may be the first candidate to run out of states before he runs out of money. so many money, it keeps coming in. he has no problem raising cash. he has more tv ads on the air right now than you would believe. but he will run out of runway. they're talking about winning states. but there are only so many delegates in those states. as you said before, joy, it is the flip side of 2008, where hillary clinton was saying but the states and states, and barack obama had the delegates, racking them up. >> you hear these things person personalized. people said rand paul didn't have the heart, or the stamina. no, he ran out of money, if had -- he had $10 more million, he
could have showed up at these places. with bernie sanders, it is not a small amount. >> well, he is running out of voters, right? i mean, that is the essential problem. strip away all of this, as much enthusiasm as he has and as many people as he is bringing into the party you know, really enthusiastic people don't get to vote more times than people who are only sort of middling you know -- middling dutiful voters. and as much excitement as there is about bernie sanders i think it would be a very different thing if it was the situation like 2008 where there was some question such as if hillary clinton is going to use super delegates to push herself over the top. she is not winning just because of kind of procedural manipulation. she is winning more votes than he has even if people are more grudging about it.
and that ultimately should be what matters. >> that is why she hits on the 2.6 million vote numbers, because if you listen you quickly hear about the caucus match and the at-large delegates and that is all true and based into it. her point that you just invoked is actually you can still count the number of people who voted and she still has a lot more than bernie even on a day like today that he is doing well. we got a really good look, not only at you, danny, but really like a specific middle part of your face i want you to know just to put you on the spot. last time you and i spoke at a big packed event in seattle, it was about 15,000 people, now you made your way to wisconsin. what are you seeing today? >> reporter: well, hi, ari, we were in seattle and now we're here in madison, wisconsin and it is still a raucous field of
energy. the amount of enthusiasm is still there. you have behind my shoulder, a sign with bernie sanders' face on it saying you're our only hope. with the charter plane to seattle just moments ago that plane does not have wi-fi on it. so the sanders campaign was out of wi-fi zone and out of any view of results for about three hours. and then just as they were touching down you could hear the cheers erupt from the front of the cabin. and that would be where the sanders campaign found out they were finally winning in alaska by large margins. of course they won margin, we'll see how the night goes. they're feeling good. >> they're feeling good, you can read confidence in the schedule and he is out here where you are in wisconsin, another important state. he keeps moving forward and staying out on the field. what are you seeing in terms of