Skip to main content

tv   Hardball With Chris Matthews  MSNBC  April 27, 2017 4:00pm-5:01pm PDT

4:00 pm
follow me on twitter @greta. my facebook has so much going on, all the background stuff. don't forget instagram. do it all. anyway, "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. russian winter. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in the nation's capital. it's about that other capital, the russian one, moscow, that we're talking about tonight. every several days we get new and suspicious news about the connection between donald trump's people and what they were doing in that other capitol hill. new documents released today by the ranking democrat on the house oversight committee reveal that the pentagon's watchdog agency is investigating those foreign payments that trump's ousted national security adviser michael flynn received in 2015 and 2016. that includes the payments from the kremlin propaganda network
4:01 pm
rt that connects flynn to russia and vladimir putin himself. this follows the charge made by the leade of the house oversight committee on tuesday of this week that flynn never got th permission required to accept that foreign income, nor did he disclose it in renewing his security clearance in 2016, which is required by law. the ranking democrat on that committee, u.s. congressman elijah cummings now wants to know what the trump transition and the trump white house new about flynn's failure to properly disclose those payments and when they knew it. today, u.s. congressman cummings accused the mouwhite house of obstructing, threatening to use a subpoena to get documents. >> these guys are playing games. when you see mr. spicer, you can tell him i said that today. they're playing games. they have told us they have documents, and then they said executive privilege. then they said some of them are before the inauguration.
4:02 pm
if we cannot come to a conclusion there and get the documents, then they'll have to be subpoenaed. >> reacting to questions about flynn's failure to disclose those foreign payments, sean spicer today blamed the obama administration because flynn renewed his security clearance before trump took office. >> are you satisfied with the vetting that was done of general flynn by the transition team before he came on board as the national security adviser? >> the issue is, you know, he was issued a security clearance under the obama administration in the spring of 2016. the trip and transactions that you're referring to occurred in december of 2015 from what i understand. >> general flynn came in, and he walked through the door with just the clearance that was conducted by the obama administration? that doesn't make any sense. >> sure it does. we trust that when you are cleared the first time, if you are cleared on december 15th or january 20th, that you are still -- that your background
4:03 pm
check still cleared. why would you re-run a background check on someone who is the head of the department, the defense intelligence agency that had and did maintain a high level security clearance? that's it. >> well, these developments come as the ranking member of the house intelligence committee, congressman adam schiff, today repeated his assertion that based on the information he's seen, there is evidence of collusion between the trump campaign and russia. >> no proof, peter king says. i've seen no proof of collusion between the trump campaign and russia. >> i have to disagree with my colleague in terms of whether there is any evidence of collusion. i believe that there is. >> can you say with confidence at this point that it is premature for people to say there's going to be no proof of collusion? >> yes, it's certainly premature. >> anyway, i'm joined by democratic congressman eric swalwell of the house intelligence committee. congressman, despite that convoluted question from chris cuomo there, let me ask you this. what do you make of the fact that what we've gotten so far
4:04 pm
through the newspapers, anything you've gotten inside that committee, do you see evidence of collusion by the trump campaign with putin? >> chris, you don't have to be a lawyer, and you don't have to have the same access that we have on the intelligence committee to see evidence of collusion. and there are so many people in donald trump's orbit who had prior personal political financial ties to russia that converged at the same time of the interference campaign. now, i have also seen many of the materials but not everything that ranking member schiff has seen. and there is evidence of collusion. >> what is it? >> so, chris, i'm not going to betray my oath, you know, to keep classified information. i will just say look at carter page. he goes over to russia with permission of the trump campaign. once it's reported that russia is interfering with the election and russia continues its interference, so that's either bad judgment or he i going over there and working with them. that's what we're trying to figure out right now.
4:05 pm
rogestone tel the world that john podesta is going to spend his time in the barrel. what happens? russia releases hacked e-mails that go after john podesta a few weeks later. these are either a thousand coincidences and donald trump is the unluck iest person in the world, or it's a pattern. >> i wonder what is secret and what is not. if i were general flynn going to work in the trump campaign, i would brag to trump that i had spent a recent dinner with putin and that we sat and chatted, and i know the guy a little bit, and i'd share that intelligence. you always want to share those experiences, especially when you're running with a guy or working for a campaign that clearly wants to start some kind of bromance internationally putin. so do you think he kept it secret from trump that he had met and gotten that money to go over there and speak on behalf of rt? by the way, jill stein was in the room, and nobody thinks jill stein was on the take. what do you make of this? >> chris, it looks like they didn't care. you know, some people may argue, well, was the white house
4:06 pm
incompetent in not looking at all this evidence of michael flynn being paid by russia? i think they just didn't care. this is what donald trump said throughout the campaign. we should have a relationship with russia. nato's role should be reduced, that sanctions perhaps could be lifted. thankfully because of what we have shined on the prior ties they are right now frozen with what they can do with russia. but if they had it their way, i don't think that wob tuld be th case. >> we want to know what that committee finds out. i appreciate you coming on tonight. i'm joined right now by the great susan page, washington bureau chief for usa today as well as greg miller, national security correspondent with "the washington post." i'm going to start with susan. you've got to write the big front pages. do we have a front-page story yet connecting trump to putin in the campaign? >> we have front-page stories that connect trump associates, the trump team to putin and to russia. there's no question about that. >> give me the update. what have we got so far? >> well, we now have the fact that the pentagon is investigating general flynn for
4:07 pm
violating the law in terms of -- that is a very serious matter. you know, one thing we know from investigations, one thing leads to another. one thing makes it look more likely. you find out about another contact, another person that was involved. more likely you can get the person who is in the crosshairs to tell you what really happened. this is an investigation that's going to go on for months and months and longer. we're going to know a lot more, but we certainly have what the congressman just said was evidence of collusion with people who were close to trump. >> let's talk about evidence and what it would look like. it seems to me having watched this for months now is whether there was a conversation or two or three or four or five between trump people -- that could be anybody, started probably at flynn, maybe manafort as well, maybe stone although he's a bit of an outlier. that they actually tald about how the relationship with putin would benefit from the election of donald trump, not just that the russians were clearly helping trump win and hillary to lose and look bad if she did win, but that it would be good
4:08 pm
for russia if they succeeded with that. any conversation along those lines would be logan act material to me, violation of the ban on engaging in international diplomacy when you're not representing our government. what does it begin to look like now if it is? >> i think that's why flynn is such an important character in this investigation and why his efforts to secure immunity appear to matter not only so much to him but to the trump administration because he's a guy who can answer some of those questions. when he communicates with the russian ambassador and they're talking about sanctions and what the trump administration is going to do about them, i mean he has -- he can -- we don't know the full story yet of whether he reported back to others in the campaign or in the transition on what that -- how that conversation went. we know he misled some in the trump administration, but did he tell the truth to others? as you were saying a minute ago, those are the kinds of things you would think somebody like flynn would want to brag about to the boss. did he ever call trump and say,
4:09 pm
boss, i was on the phone with the russian ambassador today. they're really worried about these sanctions? i mean that's why the investigation, the ongoing examination of flynn's role, is such an important one. >> of course as you alluded to, that would be some material that he could use to spring himself from any violation punishment for not filling out these forms, right? >> exactly, right. i mean he's asked for his -- his lawyer has made clear he's seeking immunity here, and that implies that he has something that would be of value that he can share. i mean this is a guy we should remember that he was fired by the obama administration and then became a really active and agitat and angry person against the obama team. that is whatropels him into trump's arms in some way, i think. he really felt burned by the obama team and went on a tirade and really blasted the obama team as much as possible. he's clearly capable of turning on an administration that he worked for. >> i'm looking at these scenes showning him hamming it up on
4:10 pm
the platform with trump. i also remember him at a convention last summer saying, lock her up, lock her up. but it is amazing now that trump now knows -- apparently trump people aren't so positive towards him right now as they were. >> initially when he was fired, you had the feeling they were trying to keep -- >> he was fired twice by the way. we should mention that. >> fired by the obama administration and then fired by president trump. that president trump is trying to keep him in the fold saying he was a good man. but the impression you got today from sean spicer's briefing is they were ready to throw him under the bus. if the pentagon wants to investigate him -- >> the bus has to back over him because he already got run over by the bus because they threw him out the window. let me ask you this. do you think there's an irony? greg, it seems interesting that the charge from sean spicer, although he begins more and more to look like melissa mccarthy up there. i don't know what he is, baghdad bob, the stuff he has to say. but he's saying the obama people should have vetted flynn. as someone pointed out in the last several hours to me, the
4:11 pm
obama people vetted him and fired him. they didn't like him. so i wouldn't hold them responsible for saying the guy's -- you know, he got the betty crocker approval here. they didn't like him. they got rid of him. why is he falling back and saying, hey, they approved him? >> and that they would rely on the vetting for security clearance from a year earlier by the obama administration just doesn't make any sense, nor does it allow for the fact that subsequent to that time, all of this became public. i mean his trip to russia became publicly known. his -- in the middle of the transition, long before the trump administration seem inclined to fire him, the acting attorney general comes to the whithouse warn them, this guy could be compromised. he might be, you know, exploitable by russia. you have to be worried about this guy. and they didn't do anything about it at that time. i mean they wait until it's on the front page of the newspapers before they take any action. >> susan, you had that story, that they knew about these trips. >> yes, that's right. and, you know, i think it is astonishing but credible that
4:12 pm
they didn't do more vetting because, remember, there was a really dysfunctional transition operation by the trump folks. they didn't expect candidate trump to win the presidency. they didn't have the kind of internal vetting that other presidents in transition have had. >> why vet a guy for connections to russia if you want a connection to russia? obviously at some point they liked what he was doing. he was doing it for them. >> that is one of the questions we've been struggling with for more than a year, which is why did candidate trump take such a positive attitude toward president putin and toward russia when there are so many points of conflict -- >> he saw a mirror image maybe. is that possible? another ego? carter page, he's also a person of interest in the russian investigation. today he acknowledged in the interview that the trump campaign knew he planned to make that trip to moscow in july of last year. let's watch. >> did you coordinate or communicate the details of your trip or that you were going with any member of the trump campaign or administration?
4:13 pm
>> i -- i never -- again, none of those details -- they knew i was going, but nothing was -- >> how did they know? >> it was -- again, i don't talk about internal discussions. >> but it matters. it matters because the suggestion is they knew you were going. if they knew you were going, they must have had an interest in you going. if they had an interest in you going, did they coordinate anything that you said there which was inherently destructive to american policy? >> absolutely not. nothing i said was destructive to american policy. >> well, greg, you know, i keep thinking of this guy as the kato kaelin of this case. he's there. he's ditzy. i don't know if he can speak clearly. it's always i didn't talk to him directly. it's always caveats and cuteness and ditziness. what role has he got to play? is he possibly a messenger between donald trump and vladimir putin? that's their liaison there? that one? >> you know, it's really great that espn and others have
4:14 pm
re-told the o.j. simpson story so people can get that kato kaelin reference, chris. i think that's sort of apt, and that's why it seems, you know, based on his manner and his really strange or distant relationship to the campaign -- >> yeah. >> it's hard to see him as a central figure, but yet he did get a sign-off to go to russia to make this speech, and when you put it into part of this broader pattern, then it looks more significant than it does all by itself. >> this thing keeps growing. thank you so much. greg, thanks for coming on tonight. susan page, as wls. coming up, we're going to look at trump's first 100 days with one of trump's biggest critics during the campaign. actually rivals. ohio governor john kasich. he never endorsed trump, never will apparently. what's he think 100 days in? big guess tonight. plus president trump's all senate briefing about north korea the other day. democrats say it was a photo opp and nothing more. we're going to talk to illinois senator tammy duckworth about it. she's not impressed by what she
4:15 pm
saw. and an unprecedented look inside the white house and the realization from the trump team that governing is a lot harder than campaigning, i think. finally let me finish tonight with trump watch. he won't like it. it's pretty good tonight. you're watching "hardball," where the action is. there's nothing more than my so when i need to book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. gets it. they offer free cancellation if my plans change. visit booking.yeah.
4:16 pm
house republicans are pushing ahead with their plan to revamp obamacare. unlike with the repeal and replace proposal that crashed and burned last month, the freedom caucus is on board. the new proposal allows states to decide how insurers charge healthy and ill people and whether they decide to cover a list of services like maternity care. speaker paul ryan says they'll hold a vote when they have enough votes to get it passed, but many moderate republicans still are not aboard. here's pennsylvania's charlie dent. >> too many americans are going to be without coverage, and the underlying amendment does not deal with that. in fact, i would argue that the underlying amendment -- the amendment that's being proposed actually takes us in the wrong
4:17 pm
direction and further weakens protections for people with pre-existing conditions. as of this moment, i expect the votes still aren't there. >> congress also needs to pass a spending bill before tomorrow night to keep the government running. and democrats say they'll withhold votes for that bill if republicans push ahead on a health care vote this week. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ i'm dr. kelsey mcneely and some day you might be calling me an energy farmer. ♪ energy lives here. who's the new guy? they call him the whisperer. the whisperer? why do they call him the whisperer? he talks to planes. he talks to planes. watch this. hey watson, what's avionics telling you?
4:18 pm
maintenance records and performance data suggest replacing capacitor c4. not bad. what's with the coffee maker? sorry. we are not on speaking terms.
4:19 pm
welcome back to "hardball." ohio governor john kasich was the last man standing in the republican primary against donald trump. kasich talked about two paths moving forward politically, one that exploits fear and anger, the other that offers hope. last april i asked him to specify who he was talking about. >> two days ago in new york with the republican women's club, you talked about fear and anger out there and how certain candidates opposing you have been exploiting it for their own fame and to gain attention. what were you talking about, and who were you talking about? >> well, i was talking about trump and cruz primarily.
4:20 pm
do we have problems? yeah. of course we do. people worried about their jobs. they're worried they don't have good wages. they put their money in the bank. they get no interest. what they're really worried about is their kid went to school, and is still living with them. can't find a job. you can either get people and drive them into a ditch and feed on their anxiety, gnashing of teeth, this person did this to me, or you can walk into a room and you can acknowledge the problems, and you can try to give people an answer. have a little hope. >> governor kasich refused to endorse donald trump. in his new book, i have right here, a great book, two paths, he explains why. one of the main reasons, quote, i didn't endorse donald trump as the republican presidential candidate after i suspended my campaign is because i couldn't stand in front of karen and the girls and look them in the eye and tell them i supported this man. i could not condone how he seemed to treat women and immigrants and minorities or the way he looked at the world. mr. kasich concluded here, i
4:21 pm
pushed myself to imagine a future with donald trump as president, and what it would mean for the soul of try. so let's talk about it now with you. thank you. 0 days in, governor. you're still governor of one of the great states. you went to the ohio state university. >> i did. >> where i was lucky to get an honorary degree. >> really? oh, you were a speaker? >> that's how you do it. you have to earn these. >> how did you do? >> i did pretty good. 60,000 people. let's talk about you. i think you -- and i've said this on the show without you blushing here. i thought you're the perfect alternative to trump because there are certain republican values that are really valuable, even if progressives don't share them. they know they're valuable. fiscal accountability is a good value for a family and sometimes it's a good value for anybody in government. don't spend money you don't have, don't waste it, don't cheat, don't steal, and be accountable for it. trade is a good republican value. i say school choice too, and some progressives disagree with
4:22 pm
me, but i had choices in school. i think it's a good thing. >> how about immigration? >> but i think distinctive to the republicans. so are they going to founder now with trump? are the good values going to die? >> that's what i warrant about, chr -- warn about, chris. you can't be in the negative. first of all to the viewers, i've known chris for a very long time, and i've always loved him. we've been friends for a long time. >> i'm blushing now. >> we've been friends for a long time. he worked for tip, tip o'neill. >> that's where we first met in the '80s. >> we mifirst met, and we both have watched the system. we know that if people can't get along, nothing happens that is sustainable. they all write about reagan and o'neill, they act like they were great buddies. they really weren't great buddies. >> they worked together and could be friendly and they were. they were friendly actually. >> so when we lose that --
4:23 pm
>> on the budget committee, on either side, house or senate, it is a tough job to say no to some people and yes to others. you get 8 million. you get 4 million. i'm sorry. that's all we've got is 12. trump's tax cut looks like it's easy money. we're going to get rid of estate tax. we're going to be latin america someday with a certain number of families, you can think of the big names now. their grandkids will be zillion airs. the other thing is like getting rid of the alternative minimum tax. at least now our government says, all right, if you've got every loophole in the world, you still got to pay a certain minimum. he wants to get rid of that. >> what about the debt? i mean we're $20 trillion, and people somehow are dismissing the debt, like it doesn't matter. the interest on the debt is so big, it keeps us from investing in things like national institutes of health. >> tell that to liberals because
4:24 pm
they ought to hear that. every time you say -- the middle class family says what's the government do for me? it provides for the military, social security, medicare, and it pays off the debt. you know what, paying off the debt is a big chunk of your tax dollar. >> and it doesn't do anything other than pay off a debt when we could take it and use it for certain things. >> you know who gets the money? older t-bond holders. in other words, hard-working 25-year-old, 35-year-old family with three or four kids, just barely making it by, their tax money goes to the older couple on treasury bills. that's where the money goes when -- >> i know this. when the debt goes up, the jobs go down. and when the debt comes down, the jobs go up. >> what do you make of trump? >> let me tell you about the tax thing. i never had -- i had -- pro-growth conservatives were furious with me. i don't believe you cut taxes and all this magic happens. i do think if we cut taxes, you see some improved economic growth. but you can't pay for these massive cuts just out of economic growth. so who's going to pay f it?
4:25 pm
my daughters. it's not right. i'm not sure this bill is going to go through because here's the thing we have to think about. >> who's going to stop it? the democrats or the moderate republicans? >> well, the democrats have never cared about that. all of a sudden, they say they care about that. >> will they vote against it? >> wait a minute. the republicans say they don't want that, and i think it doesn't matter. >> what about all those guys you served with in the house, all these fiscal conservatives, fiscal hawks. they say i'm a republican, and mime primary concern is fiscal responsibility. trump comes along and says free money, monopoly money. >> it used to be that way, so i hope republicans will say, fine, we need tax reform. we need lower tax, especially the corporate tax. the corporate tax is too darn high. >> is this going to bring back the money from overseas, the 30-some trillion dollars sitting overseas because they don't want to pay taxes on? >> i don't know. that's part of the goal is to get that money back and hope they put -- look, i called one of the obama people. i said, why don't you give them a tax holiday so they bring the
4:26 pm
money back? they said, well, if we did that, they might give it back to shareholders. i said, well, that's not a horrible thing. >> you're a trade guy and a fiscal responsibility guy, and i know a lot of things about you which i think you were at all middle of the road, you'd say, yeah, i like that. let me ask you about manners. you were the only guy to get through that trump jamboree that went on for months without getting a nickname. he seemed to have avoided you. what was that about? how did you keep him from attacking in a personal way? the other guys were lyin' ted and little marco, very personal. i thought it was high school. >> i don't -- you know what? if i acted like that and called these names, which many of them were doing, they'd throw me out of ohio. i'd have to come, you know, i'd bring my family. we'd live on your porch. >> he's the road less traveled guy, and he got the votes. he got ohio. >> i know. >> how did he get ohio? how come he won the general in ohio? >> you know why, because these
4:27 pm
people who were hurting were looking for a strongman. >> could you have beaten hillary? >> you know what the polls showed. the polls showed that i -- >> you could have beat him in the general? >> that's what everything looked like. >> you think biden could have beaten trump? >> it would have been an interesting rate and i think he could have. part of the reason why trump won is not just because of how he campaigned. i was amazed, chris, at how many people did not like hillary. i never talked -- >> when did you first notice that? early on or later? i learned it later on. ? >> i think i got it later too. >> you think it was comey? >> no. i never had anybody walk up to me in the campaign and say, you know what, i love hillary clinton. the whole time i was running, not one person. and i don't -- look -- >> i sat with all these 67 or 68 war leaders, and there was
4:28 pm
cameras there. i didn't hear anybody say anything good about hillary. brady said this guy is not nice to the ladies. he's kind of old school. but that was the only -- there's no positive rah, rah for hillary. maybe she ran too many times. >> i think she also was the subject of being demonized for a long time. politics is not beanbag. it's down right vicious. >> it's "hardball." >> it's "hardball." the other thing i think was a problem is her people didn't let her be who she might have wanted to be. there are too many advisers, too many people. remember when they used to say let reagan be reagan. >> but she was deep down i think for things like trade. i don't think she's anti-trade. i never bought that. >>no. i think she probably would be for school choice. i don't think she has to be with the union all the times. but the problem with the democratic party and i know it very well is there's a tendency to go along with all the interest groups no matter what they want and say yes to everybody, or else you've got trouble. >> don't you think we are going to see a rise, particularly
4:29 pm
among young people, of independents? >> we'll see. here's something i want you to look at. this is called two paths. is this robert frost? two roads diverge? the only trouble is they took the trump road. if you want to know what a moderate republican -- i should say conservative republican is like -- >> and how we heal the country and how it comes -- >> my parents voted for this kind of guy, john kasich, you know. john kasich, thank you, governor. >> thank you, chris. up next, that briefing yesterday at the white house on north korea. the entire senate was there, but at least one democrat -- she's coming here -- tammy duckworth says it was a photo opp and nothing more. this is "hardball," where the action is. and the urinary symptoms of bph. tell your doctor about your medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, or adempas® for pulmonary hypertension, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess. to avoid long-term injury, get medical help right away
4:30 pm
for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have a sudden decrease or loss of hearing or vision, or an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis.
4:31 pm
4:32 pm
let's[ whimpers ] dog. find ping-pong. okay, let's go. find your awesome with the xfinity x1 voice remote. that's amazing!
4:33 pm
i'm milissa rehberger. united airlines has settled with the kentucky doctor who was dragged off a flight to make room for crew members. the airline has accepted full responsibility in the settlement for an undisclosed amount. the man suspected of killing a straight trooper outside a delaware convenience store was shot to death by police after a standoff. the man refused to surrender, so police used explosives to blow open his door and windows. they shot him after he came out of his home armed. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." we're just two day as way from the 100-day marker and the white house spinners are in overdrive. president trump who originally called the metric ridiculous is making a feverish push right now to promote his accomplishments so far. the administration launched a new 100-day website touting the president's applicable accomplishments. he's dispatched his cabinet
4:34 pm
members across the country and in a made for tv moment, the white house herded 100 u.s. senators and had them board a bus for a classified briefing at the white house on the topic of north korea. several senators left unimpressed. illinois senator tammy duckworth called it a dog and pony show. here's what the chairman of the foreign relations committee himself had to say. >> how was the briefing? >> it was . >> did you guys laernearn anyth in there that you didn't know before? >> i -- i didn't really. they already have through open source reporting, we already know they have nuclear weapons. but it was -- it was an okay briefing. >> what do you mean okay briefing? you didn't really learn much? >> i -- it was -- it was okay. >> that's too much honesty for the white house, i'm sure. senator tammy duckworth joins us right now. senator, there was corker from tennessee, the republican chairman of that committee not
4:35 pm
exactly singing the praises of what was displayed. what do you think it was worth on a scale of 1 to 100? did you learn anything at the briefing? >> chris, i learned more about north korea watching your show than i did from that briefing yesterday. >>le w thank you. i hope that's true on a number of occasions, but on this one -- do you know, there's been two newspaper articles today. i'm getting serious now, not just p.r. here but the reality. one of the papers, must have been the times i read first, the new york times, that basically said there's no evidence in the koreas, in the peninsula, that people are getting scared. north koreans are not hoarding government gasoline. they're not taking it away from the gas pumps for the government to use for a war. there's no shopping cart racing through the shopping centers of -- or the safeways or whatever their safeways are called over there. there's no hiding of food or water. people don't think something's up. how do you see it? >> well, listen, the people of north korea live in pretty dire circumstances under an extreme dictator who has kept them isolated from the world. but at the end of the day, you know, the trump rhetoric and the
4:36 pm
things coming out of the white house with regards to north korea is just that. it's rhetoric. i'm afraid what he has done is put us into a corner where there is no off ramp. what if north korea does do something that the president thing thinks should provoke american action? he's left our military no real options to get away other than to move forward with use of force, and that's really scary. that's what i wanted to hear discussed yesterday. instead they gave us no plans, no goals for what they wanted to do. you know, no real discussion took place at all. >> what do you think the red line should be? >> i don't know that there needs to be a red line, chris. but, you know, look, one thing for sure, we have a treaty alliance with japan and with south korea. if those two nations come under attack, we are obligated by treaty to help defend our allies. but what we should be doing is talking about an authorization for use of military force. we need to be talking about what the trump administration's goals are and what their trying to achieve. we didn't get that yesterday.
4:37 pm
we just got a lot of information that was the same information that are available in newspapers and a waste of people's time and really, most importantly, people's resources. the taxpayer dollars that were involved in busing all the senators over there and then busing them all back. >> let's talk about strategic patience, which is the term used for the obama strategy, which was basically like we did with the soviet union starting in '47 with the cold war starting off, we basically waited them out. it was a terrible system. just waited it out and keep it from growing throughout the world, containment. but is that strategy appropriate for a young leader who obviously has ambitions to protect his country with an arsenal of nuclear weapons, icb m's? is it the smart policy now, patience? is that smart? >> well, i don't know that it's smart, but here's the deal, chris. we should be having that discussion at the secret level with the administration, and we didn't get that yesterday. we should be talking. they should be coming forward and saying, look, this is what we propose the strategy to be.
4:38 pm
this is what we think we should do with this young leader. here are the factors involved. and congress should be doing our job with, you know, having these conversations. that's not what happened yesterday. what happened yet was a giant photo opp so the trump administration can prove they did something in theirst 100 days which they really haven't done. >> earlier today the president took to twitter to attack democrats in the house over negotiations to fund this government. in one tweet he told followers -- this is pretty bad -- democrats jeopardizing the safety of our troops to bail out their donors from insurance companies. it is time to put america first. there he is saying the democrats -- this is another convoluted statement for today. what do you think he means by that, that your party, the democratic party somehow is responsible because it's drawing the line on abusing the debt ceiling fight? i don't know what he's talking about. what do you make of it? >> i don't think he knows what he's talking about either. i think this man just throws anything he can against the refrigerator door and hopes something sticks. bottom line, the last affordable care act fight we had that the
4:39 pm
trump administration lost would have taken 7 million veterans and put them out on the streets without the subsidies to help them pay for their health insurance. he was planning a tax hike on veterans, 7 million of them at a minimum the last time around. and if he's going to do it again, then darn right i'm going to fight him every step of the way because our veterans deserve better. >> let me ask you another thing. tell me what we can do about afghanistan. i am frightened that all this blood and treasure that's going into saving that country from the taliban is oozing away. i look at the taliban's gaining of territory. they keep gaining territory. if you look at objectively, they're winning slowly. should we stay in there and keep trying to fight the taliban or get out? what should we do? >> well, i think what we need to do is work out some of the basic issues. this is where the trump administration's cuts to the state department is a real problem, and even flag officers, generals and admirals h come out a said do not cut the diplomatic efforts. one of the reasons the taliban
4:40 pm
grows in influence is because of the basic corruption that exists. we saw this firsthand in the military, that the corruption is what turns people to the taliban because they can't rely on their own governme officials. and we need to address that as one of the many things we should address. and in cutting the state department, it's not one of the ways to address this issue. >> some of the great stuff we do, like educating women in a country that never believed in that in afghanistan, you know all about, senator. we're doing great work. women are going to movies. women are going to school. they're dressing the way they want to dress. it's all the values that we hold true in the west, and yet that's what's aggravating the damn taliban. they don't like what's going on over there. they see that success in afghanistan, and they want it the old way with men able to beat up women and do anything they want to do. >> well, they see it as a threat to their power because investments in women actually makes the entire population better educated. when you educate a woman, her children get educated. both the male children and the
4:41 pm
female children, and that is a threat to the taliban. this is why, you know, in my maiden speech just yesterday, i spoke at length about the fact that we need to make investments in education. we need to make investments in keeping america a lea of the free world, and investing in our state department and diplomacy is all part of that. i'm not afraid of the world the way donald trump is. he seems to want to cower behind walls and tough talk. at the end of the day, we must engage with the world in order to remain leaders of the free world. that means we have to support efforts to educate the women of afghanistan. >> thank you so much, u.s. senator tammy duckworth of noil. up next, nearly 100 days in and trump and his team are finding out that governing is a lot harder than campaigning. you're watching "hardball," where the action is. you do all this research
4:42 pm
on a perfect car, then smash it into a tree. your insurance company raises your rates... maybe you should've done more research on them. for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident. liberty mutual insurance. due to your first accident. they open on a game show set in the 70's, in my johnsonville commercial, today we have a new smoked sausage from johnsonville. made with 100% premium pork. some brands mix meats and add fillers, but not johnsonville! contestant #1 bids the closet, so he wins a boat. and he says " i don't want that boat, i want the sausage." what if i told you that boat is filled with johnsonville smoked sausage? and that's a smoked sausage commercial made the johnsonville way.
4:43 pm
hey, need fast try cool mint zantac. it releases a cooling sensation in your mouth and throat. zantac works in as little as 30 minutes. nexium can take 24 hours. try cool mint zantac. no pill relieves heartburn faster.
4:44 pm
welcome back to "hardball." as the 100-day marker of the trump presidency is fast approaching, the 45th president is faced with record low approval ratings, no legislative accomplishments to speak of, and
4:45 pm
an fbi and several congressional investigations into his campaign's relationship with the russians. three reporters from politico who interviewed nearly two dozen aides, allies, and confidants of president trump paint a picture of a white house on a collision course between trump's fixed habits and his growing realization that this job is harder than he imagined when he won that election on november 8th. they also write that trump's unexpected win gave him and his closest advisers the false sense that governing would be as easy to master as running a successful campaign turned out to be. it was a rookie mistake. the president told politico, making business decisions and buying buildings don't involve heart. this involves heart. these are heavy decisions. well, for more on the president's on the job training, let's bring in our roundtable tonight, francesca chambers, jonathan capehart, and ryan streeter, the director of domestic policy studies at the american enterprise institute. let's start here. i asked you ahead of time, i said tell me what you think is the best example to you of
4:46 pm
trump's learning curve, which is as steep as mt. everest? >> i think on domestic policy, health care. they just assume that all of the republicans and conservatives would just get behind them and take whatever bill they put in front of them to repeal and replace obamacare. >> no hearings, nothing. >> and that didn't happen. >> john? >> i don't know if this counts as learning curve, but the flip-flopping from one position to the other, sometimes within hours, i don't think -- >> what's your favorite flip-flop? >> from last night. remember the whole campaign was we're going to rip up nafta. we're going to rip up nafta on day one. then it was, no, i'm not going to rip up nafta. then last night it was we're going to do nafta. then today it was, we're not going to -- >> let's look at that. sinc becoming president, trump has canceled a federal hiring freeze he imposed during his first week. he flipped on labelling china a currency manipulator. he declared nato relevant after calling it obsolete. he says he will renegotiate nafta instead of withdrawing or
4:47 pm
terminating from that trade deal. by the way, it doesn't sound like he's doing any of that. and he launched strikes in syria after opposing an intervention into the war torn country as a candidate. >> i think his biggest learning curve so far has been congress and how it works and the separation of powers and that whole thing. i think that was on display -- >> what grade did you learn that in? i think it's like sixth or seventh. >> early on. >> i think that was the steepest learning curve. it was on full display during the health care debacle. i would just say on these flip-flops, that at least suggests to me that he's getting briefings and that he's being presented with options. >> so he's learning. >> in every single one you mentioned, there's a certain amount of complexity. >> you can't trash the guy for being wrong and then he switches to the right side and trash him for flipping. there's such a thing and learning and that means flipping. >> wait a minute. first he's i am for torture. then he says i talked to mad dog mattis. he said torture is a bad thing,
4:48 pm
so i'm against it. but then he's elected and comes back and says, well, i talk to some other people and they say torture works. >> the flip-flopping you don't like. >> here's the reason why i think it's bad. ultimately these are little drips that erode the credibility of the president of the united states. >> what do you want to do about it? >> at some point, chris, we're going to have to believe what the president says. >> what do you want to do about it? >> i'm not sure what we can do about it. >> you're a columnist. you're supposed to tell. what do we do? >> i can just diagnose the problem. right now i don't know how to cure it. >> what is your prescription? >> i don't know how to cure . doou really want me to say what the prescription is? >> i want to hear it from you. >> no, i'm not going to say it because it's not going to happen. i think what we need is a grown-up -- >> write a column. >> we need a grown-up? the oval office. >> we have an election coming up in 2020. >> in 2020. hopefully the american people will put a grown-up in the oval office. >> so that's the goal? >> yes. >> a regime change? >> by the people at the ballot
4:49 pm
box. >> i just want to know where you're headed. four years of columns are coming up. that's a long run. you might get a pulitzer out of this. >> speaking of regime change, going back to the list -- >> the argument i have with you, okay, you're very excited. you' you're very emotional about this. now what? i think we can scorn him, test him, challenge him when he's right. but we got to keep punching him. >> don't worry. >> resistance ought to be real and aggressive, but it can't be we're giving up. you hope somebody can pound some sense into him. >> absolutely. >> you think you can ever pound some sense into him? >> no. >> thank you. >> speaking of regime change, part of the reason he changed his position on syria is because bashar al assad dropped chemical weapons on the people that had a really big effect on him. >> the kids. >> on the kids, on women and children. he realized that their position that assad can essentially just stay, this isn't our problem, that wasn't really something he
4:50 pm
was comfortable with. >> those kids got to him. >> can i just say, though, when we look at syria, when we look at the tax plan that was outlined yesterday, which i think is missing some pieces. >> some? >> when you look at his statements on trade, he's sort of regreszidpregressing to a tr republican mean. >> roundtable is sticking with us. up next, the three will tell me something i don't know. they keep doing it. this is "hardball," where the action is. when you're close to the people you love, does psoriasis ever get in the way of a touching moment?
4:51 pm
if you have moderate to severe psoriasis, you can embrace the chance of completely clear skin with taltz. taltz is proven to give you a chance at completely clear skin. with taltz, up to 90% of patients had a significant improvement of their psoriasis plaques. in fact, 4 out of 10 even achieved completely clear skin. do not use if you are allergic to taltz. before starting you should be checked for tuberculosis. taltz may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you are being treated for an infection or have symptoms. or if you have received a vaccine or plan to. inflammatory bowel disease can happen with taltz. including worsening of symptoms. serious allergic reactions can occur. now's your chance at completely clear skin. just ask your doctor about taltz.
4:52 pm
you can play "hardball" all week long online. follow the show on snapchat, twitter, and instagram and like us on facebook. you can watch some of our best interviews and special video features as we cover the trump white house and of course the resistance movement previously mentioned, like only we can. we'll be right back. and adapting them to work for you. the ultrasound that can see inside patients, can also detect early signs of corrosion at our refineries. high-tech military cameras that see through walls, can inspect our pipelines to prevent leaks. remote-controlled aircraft, can help us identify potential problems and stop them in their tracks. at bp, safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better. we always take time getting to know you, so we can ensure you hear what matters most in your world. grandpa! (vo) call, click or come in today to learn how to start your better days. miracle-ear...hear a better day.
4:53 pm
4:54 pm
we're back with the "hardball" rounable. francesca, tell me something i don't kn. >> a senior administration official told me today that one of the white house people who have been most under attack, reince priebus, he was brought in because it was thought he knew lawmakers from his rnc days. >> sure. >> and that he'd be able to get them to move on health care. this official -- take from it what you want who this might be, says even if you know them very well, you can't make someone vote for something they don't want to vote for, so it's not his fault. >> you can lead a horse to water. >> the horse might drown. sir richard branson will be in town.
4:55 pm
i'm interviewing him at washington post live tomorrow. >> you'll get all the scuttle on the former president's vacation. >> then he's marching in the big climate march on saturday. >> he owns an island somewhere, doesn't he? >> yes, in the british virgin islands. >> go ahead. >> more 18 to 34-year-olds, young adults live with their parents than on their own for the first time ever. if you look into the numbers. >> what year? >> 18 to 34-year-olds. so young adults for the first time ever, more of them live at home with their parents than on their own. you look at the numbers, and about half of them have an associates degree or some college. my prediction is that if the president doesn't figure out how to engage those people, their parents are going to vote for somebody else. >> how to live with your parents. anyway, thank you. that wasn't funny, was it? when we return, let me finish tonight with trump watch. you're watching "hardball." ♪
4:56 pm
he's told that joke a million times. and you always laugh like you're hearing it for the first time. lincoln financial, we get there are some responsilities of love you gotta do on your own. and some you shouldn't have to shoulder alone. like ensuring he's well-taken care of. even as you build your own plans for retirement. ask a financial advisor how lincoln can help protect your savings from the impact of long-term care expenses. buttrust angie's list to help., [ barks ] visit today.
4:57 pm
it'that can make a worldces, of difference.
4:58 pm
expedia, everything in one place, so you can travel the world better.
4:59 pm
trump watch, thursday, april 27th, 2017. well, tonight we met with the man who might have been the republican candidate last year. it's an interesting question whether governor john kasich could have excited voters in states like his, ohio, michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania. in a race against democrat hillary clinton. could he have gotten them off their seats and off to the polls with the same enthusiasm that trump did? this much is clear, there still exists a republican party with its basic philosophy strengths of fiscal accountability, free trade, support for school choice, and open skepticism towards russia. you may not like those values but they are values, not the crazed impromptu dances learned for the occasion we're getting from donald trump. it would be good for the country to keep the two-party system alive and vibrant, and i have a hunch there will be republican
5:00 pm
leaders around like john kasich far longer than we'll see more donald trumps marching across the country's stage. that's not a hope. it's a prayer. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> i honestly do not understand why the white house is covering up for michael flynn. >> a brand-new michael flynn probe is announced as the white house blames obama? >> all of that clearance was -- was made by the obama -- during the obama administration. >> tonight, new charges of a cover-up and what it means for the trump-russia investigation. then the new push for trumpcare runs into the same old trouble. >> can you reassure people with pre-existing conditions that they won't be worse off under your plan? and as the president's bluff gets called again, this time on nafta -- >> i said i will hold on the termination. >> why just about everyone is grading the