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tv   Hardball With Chris Matthews  MSNBC  August 4, 2017 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT

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>> i would say move ahead. >> i want to thank chuck, amy and joan and thanks over the one at home. i wish you all a great weekend. that does it for me. we're on facebook at "the beat." don't go anywhere. "hardball" starts now. grand juries. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. the president begins his 17-day vacation tonight at his golf club in new jersey. he can't get away from the expanding shadow of robert mueller's russian probe. while trump is out on the links, robert mueller's looking at the links to everything russian, everything illegal. nbc news reported that mueller is making use of active grand
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juries in multiple districts including washington, d.c. and northern virginia. and last night at a rally in west virginia, president trump tried rally his supporters. >> they can't beat us at the voting booths, so they're trying to cleat you out of the future and the future that you want. they're trying to cheat you out on of leadership you want with a fake story that is demeaning to all of us. i just hope the final determination is a truly honest one which is what the millions of people who gave us our big win in november deserve. democrat lawmakers will have to decide. they can continue their obsession with the russian hopes or they can serve the interests of the american people.
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>> well, the president also knocked investigation itself. >> the russia story is a total fabrication. it is just an excuse for the greatest loss in the history of american he politics. that's all it is. most people know there were no russians in our campaign. there never were. we didn't win because of russia. we won because of you. have you seen any russians in west virginia or ohio? or pennsylvania? are there any russians here tonight? any russians? >> well, russians might not have been in west virginia but they were certainly in trump tower last summer meeting with the president's son and son-in-law after promising dirt on hillary clinton. those are facts. the assessment of the u.s. intelligence community concluded that moscow, quote, developed a clear preference to elect donald
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trump. and even president trump's own director of national intelligence said recently, there's no dissent inside intelligence agencies about what russia did. the president can continue to dismiss the investigation as a home and a witch hunt but cold-blooded robert mueller isn't listening to it at all. axios national political reporter jonathan swann is here with me and the "boston globe's" national political reporter. do you think trump wants an honest investigation? he said so right there to his crowd. >> so, chris, he can spin and he can mislead and lie all he wants in front of his adoring fans or at a press podium. here's something he can't do. he cannot lie to the fbi, to the grand jury. nor can his lawyers. nor can hisser associates. at the end of the day, what he says in his tweets and in the public utterances are completely irrelevant. this is about matters of law. that's what bob mueller is
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about. that's what the senate intelligence committee is about. that's what the house intelligence committee is about. what he says in these environments and these settings is irrelevant. >> what do you make of his decision to not just deny his guilt in terms of collusion, or some fiction entanglement which would allow leverage in office, but denying the russians had any attempt to involve themselves in the election. that's all testified to by his own people. >> we're back to the 3d movie. deception, deflection and distraction. it won't work with robert mueller. he's tried everything he can to bill is date robert mueller. he's threatened to fire jeff sessions, or hinted that he should leaf. or that robert mueller shouldn't be there. bob mueller is a highly decorated marine and spent his
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entire career in law enforcement going after truly bad guys. guess what, mr. president, bob mueller does not intimidate. >> let's watch this. >> do you think the white house should be concerned about the grand jury? >> of course the white house should be concerned. i worry about the government having the kind of power, notice what mueller is doing. he is changing the targets. he was supposedly going to look into russian collusion. the articles say it looks lying russian collusion will be hard to prove, maybe because it didn't happen. >> let me remind everyone what the president has said. it is a witch hunt, it's fake, last night i believe he called it a fabrication and we know these become fishing expeditions. you're just hoping jello against the wall and hoping something will stick. >> problem with the analogy is that they throw it against the
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wall because some of the jello sticks. that's a bad analogy for her to throw out. by the way, monica lewinsky stuck. they went after whitewater. the jello sticks. >> it can be very sticky and particularly concerning for this white house if mueller does what ken starr did and expands the investigation beyond just russia. the last thing that these guys really want to have happen is for people to be going, investigators to be looking into the financial dealings. >> they are apparently looking. they're looking at money transfers, any kind of business between the trump gang, carter page and manafort and the rest of they will. they're looking at all the meetings and all the russians they're dealing with. they're probably looking into the past. >> that's where it gets on more dangerous ground. this has really gotten under trump's skin. he's the one who keeps bringing this up order and over and over
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again. it is just something that he is not letting go. he senses some danger there. >> we talked about how, it is not the just the fbi director choom met with the president and felt the president was trying to obstruct justice. at least he was intimating that. he shared his phone qualls the top deputies. there's a lot of information there. and now i'm looking at what the president is trying to do. first it was destroy comey personally. now he's trying to go after mueller personally and go after him. mueller is leading an army. this isn't one on wumpbl i think trump has problem with trying to defame one person when a very professional army of attorneys are coming after him. >> absolutely, chris. let's remember that director mueller has just hired greg andrus to join that small army of people who are made of top notch, to have professional
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lawyers. he is what could only be in a highly professional legal practice. on the basis again presumably that he thinks there's something substantive that makes it worth his while and service to the nation to return to the department of justice. >> that's exactly my thinking. because jonathan, i keep looking at these guys. just the appearance of the attorneys. they are all incredibly professional in their manner. mueller is always dearing frightening aattache case. like i have stuff in this box. not a hair out of place. the suit coats are always buttoned. the game face is on. and worse for the president, not a look of sympathy. it is so neutral, so unsim that a athleticic for guilt or innocence. they're there to get a job done. if write trump, i would be
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trump, i wish it was those lawyers applauding me. >> do you know who doesn't have the buttons up and the hair not out of place is donald trump's legal team. >> which one? >> they had to leave after going off to insane kind of e-mail rant. >> the one guy -- how about the tv lawyer? he's always on television. does he ever practice law? >> one of the problems they've had, he hasn't hired the best lawyersest doesn't have the best people defending him. and he is up against a very formidable legal team. >> he has very bad track record of paying lawyers. >> i love the way -- you're so boston. if you have bad business practices behind you, why do you think they'll end here? trump does not have good relationships with the people that he owes. if you don't pay them, they're not your good friends anymore
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and trump is notorious in this regard. >> i think one the of most bizarre things that you just talked about. comparing and contrasting the two legal teams. it is not, of course, trump's legal team. it is the legal team of the people around him. they've lawyered up. when you compare that to bob mueller and the team he's assembled, if you were in a legal circumstance where you needed legal representation, which of those teams would hire? you fick robert mueller team. they're pros. >> the campaign style rally last night. president trump revisited his old standards. the old golden oldies. i won't say poor hillary clinton. it is yesterday's news. the audience even broke out in a channel of lock her up again, like in the old days. >> the reason why democrats only talk about the totally made up
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russia story is because they have no message, no agenda and no vision. it just makes them feel better when they have nothing else to talk about. what the prosecutor should be looking at are hillary clinton's 33,000 deleted e-mails. >> he says we shouldn't have witch hunts. there's nothing in there so let's see if there's something in there. that's the definition of a witch hunt. >> many of her e-mails were leaked. but i think this is one of the more insidious things that donald trump does. in this country, we do not lock up our points, our political opponents. >> we do in third world
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countries. >> that happens in caracas and venezuela. >> in pakistan, they hang them. >> and here we just defeat them and they go off and they sit on the beach somewhere. >> no. they teach he in college. for trump to be attacking -- >> you're an elected official. we respect elected officials more than anybody. the simple fact is you are elected and you carry with you the decision of the people you represent. there's trump out there saying this isn't about truth or justice, it is not about guilt or innocence. it is about revisiting the election last year. i never heard anybody, a lot of militants around here. and i never heard anyone say hillary clinton lost the election because of the russians. the question is whether the russians tried mess with our electoral process, they tried on embarrass us and bring us down to their level. it is a national issue. and he has turned it into, they
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screwed our people. that's not the way it's played. your thoughts. >> here's the deals. he only has one play in his play book. think about what we just went through on health care, whether to repeal or replace. all he had was talking points. he never really got in the game. he never put anything of substance. he thought it was all about spin, it was about appealing to people and sometimes they're more basic instincts. by analogy in this circumstance, he's not dealing with the substance of what's going on. he thinks this is what matters. it is a single play. and frankly, it is not just ham handed. it is incompetent. bob mueller doesn't care what he says at a rally in west virginia. bob mueller cares about the law. that's what he cares about. and he is going to get at the
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truth, irrespective of what the president says on the campaign trail. >> this is august 4, differ than a month or two ago. now we have grand juries that have been put into practice and they're being activated. apparently at least two or three. maybe more grand juries. once you reach this stage of bringing evidence or seeking subpoenas, are you in a stage where if a president were to fire special counsel -- >> would it immediately induce a constitutional crisis if we to take that step. i don't think he will but if he does, it will induce constitutional crisis. it is part of this talk, his rumor, the stirring up, there discussion is because he's trying to intimidate bob mueller. and i've seen my piece on that. good luck only. >> he doesn't look very
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confused. that man has the best resume i've ever seen, including serving in vietnam, i don't think he is scared of donald trump. thank you. >> hey! >> i like chivalry. especially friday afternoon. coming up, the news this week, the news that special counsel is making news of a grand jury in washington, d.c. could 19 investigation is focusing on possible crimes that happened. on 1600 pennsylvania right here in d.c. things like obstruction of justice. and that should have trump and his top aides very nervous. plus, trump has left for summer vacation. the senate left yesterday. after six months, this city and this nation's capital, they ever no major accomplishments to show for it. and general kelly's first week
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he now needs the power of
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compulsion to get documents compel witnesses to testify. that's a necessary step to move forward to a potential prosecution doesn't mean he will prosecute, but this is part of the investigation very much moving forward. >> back to "hardball." that was the ranking member of the intelligence committee, on the news that a washington grand jury, among others, are working in connection of the special counsel's unfolding trump investigation. grand juries give pros durts right right, to prosecute. and to find whether there's probable cause. paul, a former prosecutor, and the former watergate assistant prosecutor. thank you both for joining us. let's go to school grand juries. a friend of mine the just pointed this out. you go before a grand jury, you don't bring a lawyer in the room
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with you. or or she has to stay in the hallway. you can tell the truth or you lie. and you perjure yourself. >> or you take the fifth. >> which is what targets are asked to do. what if the president of the united states is subpoenaed? that's when he has his difficult political versus legal position. politically he has to testify. legally anyone who is targeted takes fifth. prosecutors like me love the grand jury because the defense attorney is not there. she sits outside the room. it is like a big classroom. 23 people as a prosecutor, you run the show. >> taking the fifth doesn't mean much to a person who is schooled in and that what's all lawyers tell you to do. to the average person, they go, what are they hiding in. >> you look guilty although it doesn't mean that. >> let's to go joe. your thoughts about a prosecutor
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in a public corruption case which this is. misuse of power, misuse of the role. what does it mean they're going to a grand jury? d.c., xanld alexandria and othe locales for grand juries. >> it is exactly as paul said. i think a discovery tool where you can bring in witnesses who have to testify, who might not have cooperated with the fbi or other federal agencies. the irs, whoever is investigating the other crimes. it is a way to get documents that people wouldn't voluntarily produce. and eventually the grand jury evaluates what evidence they have and determines where a crime is committed and who the person is who committed the crime. it does not mean there will be indictments but it is certainly a step toward an indictment. it is something people would worry before the theoretically if anyone takes fifth amendment,
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what happens in the grand jury room is secret, no one would know. on the other hand, things seem to have a way of being found out. so i don't know. it shouldn't ever be disclosed if someone takes the fifth. >> if i'm bob mueller, he always has his briefcase. he says to a group of people, te'o look at the business dealings of the president of the united states or somehow identifies someone as a public official and says i want to find out what the dealings are with russia and the only way i can zoit to see tax returns. do you think a d.c. jooury, wha would they do in. >> i would say they absolutely would. and he has very valid reasons for doing it. it can provide the motive for any conduct in this case. there's it's obviously a close
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and loyal relationship between president trump and the russian government. and why is that? what is the connection? did it start during miss universe contest? is there public funding from the russian government of any trump projects? we need more than his tax returns. we probably need all of his bank records and to find out more to get to the bottom of what the motive for his conduct is. and it may be evidence of criminal conduct. maybe there's money laundering. >> i can understand why the president and his people around him, including his attorneys are worried about a fishing expedition. that's the very thing that i think he could be involved in. meaning how do we know who trump owes money to? he may have borrowed $5 or $10 million to close a deal and then someone sells that deal to an oligarch. this dirty world of russia where
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it is all moving around. it is all gangster-y. we don't know who owns the president. >> that's why the special counsel has assembled this ace team of 16 of best prosecutors in the country with the help of some of the best investigators. they're very good at following the money, which is paper trails. so they'll subpoena e-mails, bank transactions. >> what would be the crime? >> suppose he has people tell us, like movies are backed by chinese money. there aren't a lot of people in the united states that haven't been frisked for capital in whatever industry. to go overseas where there's money. what happens if he does owe money in russia? is that impeachable? is that indictable? the fact the president of the united states is owned by
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someone over there? is that criminal? >> it is not necessarily criminal. but it could be. it depends on if there's a quid pro quo that has been expected. it is also politically devastating. so we have a president whose tax returns we've never seen. whose financial obligations we have no knowledge of. and he doesn't want them disclosed for political reasons. maybe for legal reasons, too. certainly for political. so you have to keep in mind that there's not just a legal question here. we need to look at the political consequences of this. >> and we're looking at the glass darkly. we know according to the nbc reporting, which is very sound, they dug up the fact that there's a d.c. jury here. what does a prosecutor get? >> because where the potential crime occurred, it is in the district of clul. the fbi building is in the
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district of columbia. moreover, prosecutors often use the grand jury to try out a potential criminal case. so you want jurors in the grand jury who will be like petty jurors if there is a prosecution. so d.c. jurors -- >> this is a tough town on public officials. historically very tough. >> they ask tough questions. it is much more casual. they talk among themselves. he can ask questions of the witnesses. >> tell me what you think it means. if the location was the white house, for example, something to do with obstruction of justice. it some people say it's the traffic jam. it is 10 miles of bad traffic. that's why mr. mueller wants to have a grand jury here. could it be that basic and
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convenient? >> i don't think it is for the convenience of the prosecutors. it is also true they'll take the evidence wherever it goes. so they started with one investigation, collusion with the russian government. it quickly grew to obstruction of justice in the white house. now it's grown to obstruction of justice to taking something from a foreign national in new york. i think the grand jury could investigate all those things. it may be the alexandria grand jury is expiring and they need a new grand jury. i don't know what the scheduling is. >> could it be that you have white house people called, and they could walk six or seven blocks and they can't complain about their time being misused. >> it could be, yes.
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>> donald trump acts like there's a red line like using chemical weapons in syria. like he can only do russian stuff. if you read the mandate, it is anything that arises, any matter that has arisen or does arise. so it includes the tributaries and the archipelagos. unfairly or not, he is getting audited. >> that's right. there's always mission creep with these special counsel investigations. clinton started with a real estate trans action and ended with a stained blue dress. trump has boxed mueller in. if trump tries to fire the special counsel now, it will look like more evidence of obstruction of justice. >> because he said that's what his problem was.
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like he did with comey. he has a way of letting the truth out. if you listen to him long enough. thank you both for coming on. up next, president trump promised to drain the swamp. remember that? get things done in d.c. beginning summer vacation. what dove do have they have to show? they got gorsuch in but they got rid of the filibuster in. they didn't have the 60 votes so they said 50 is enough. what ir nationality and i would always answer hispanic. so when i got my ancestry dna results it was a shocker. i'm everything. i'm from all nations. i would look at forms now and wonder what do i mark? because i'm everything. and i marked other. discover the story only your dna can tell. order your kit now at
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the former pharmaceutical ceo for liking the price of a life saving medication has been convicted of securities fraud. no sentencing date has been set. and shocking video has been released of a violent crash in michigan of showing a pickup truck plowing through a bus stop. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." as the special counsel heats up, the president has left for a 17-day working vacation in new jersey. the relocation is due to planned west wing renovations. the president spent 59 days of his 196 days in office visiting a property that he owns. on the campaign trail, he frequently criticized president
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obama for taking vacations. let's watch that. >> i'll going to fight for every american in every last part of this nation. we have a president who doesn't fight. he goes out and plays golf all the time. if you love what you do, you don't take vacations. you're happy. i love working. i'm not a vacation guy. like obama. he plays golf in hawaii. he flies in a 747. >> if you're in the white house, who wants to take a vacation? what's better than white house? why these vacations? >> i promise you, i will not be taking very long vacations if i take them at all. there's no time for vacations. we won't be big on vacation. >> it is ludicrous. i can't stop laughing. we've been through it so many times. the difference between his notion of reality then and now. it's a dump. now he says -- howard fineman,
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global editorial. you've got the toughest job. explain how trump doing nothing will exchange to his situation? he hides, joe lewis said they can run but they can't hide. >> given what has pamd to his popularity and the lack of success he's had so far, i'll not sure kit hurt him to get out of town for a while. the more he's been on the screen, the more he's been an issue, the more he is on twitter, the more his overall approval rating has gone down. now, he is still firm, sol witness the 32 or 33% of the american public who adores anything he does and they like him personally. but with everybody else, all the independents, he's lost the independents. >> did you notice a pattern? i thought his true north was better than his day to day. if he didn't get in the news on any given day. >> generally, he emphasizes the
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contentiousness of his approach to everything. his problem has been from the moment he stepped on the stage here which was his inaugural, he's been at war with everybody here. while that's great with his base, it is not great with the rest of the country. it is not good for getting things done. >> do presidents, they all go on vacation and they all play golf. maybe the exception is jimmy carter. he didn't get in the yacht. his people. the regular people making regular incomes. they may have been a bit more. they identified with working regular people. and trump is a billionaire. does that bother them? they like frank sinatra. >> he is their billionaire. having attended many, many trump rallies and spending years covering people in parts of the
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country. >> we're looking at the lavish life of the president. >> his supporters think, you know what? he's a rich billionaire. but he's our billionaire. and he is going to use all of his wiles and all of his skills and his business deliberate selfishness on our behalf. will they ever catch up with the fact even though, for example, there were 200,000 jobs created in the last month. that real wages, especially, people in the minds and the factories, have not gone up. those wages have not gone up at all. but that particular fact is not affecting their overall view of donald trump. >> when will it catch up to they will? >> i don't know. as long as the economy stays strong. right now, his doing that stuff at bedminster. >> the members of the golf clubs are all better off.
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>> they've done fantastically. even the working class people who voted for trump are with him right now. >> thank you. up next, general john kelly has been tasked and asked to bring discipline to the white house. he hasn't reined in the president just yet. the leaking goes on. still calling the russian investigation a ohio valley. does this guy kelly have any control after all? let's party! [kids cheering]
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[kids screaming] call the clown! parents aren't perfect but then they make us kraft mac & cheese and everything's good again. is everything ok?adt, i could hear crackling in the walls, and my mind went totally blank. all i remember saying was, "my boyfriend's beating me" and she took it from there. when a fire is going on, you're running around, you're not thinking clearly, so they called the fire department for us. and all of this occurred in four minutes or less. within five minutes. i am absolutely grateful we all made it out safely. it's kind of one of those things you can't even... you cant even thank somebody. people you don't know actually care about you.
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that was president trump on monday touting his new general. he brings military discipline not only to the white house but
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to the president himself, the commander in chief. that said "the new york times" says that kelly will not try to change mr. trump's twitter or tv watching habits. he wants to limit the possie of people urging him to tweet. his authority would be undermined if he tried and failed. so far, general kelly hasn't stopped the leaks. the president's tweeting is unabated and now there's more possible upheaval. the three star general, h.r. mcmaster, may soon find himself on the chopping block. it quotes officials saying everything he wants took mcmaster opposes. let's bring in the roundtable. the columnist at the daily beast.
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i want you to get this started. let's start with the top stuff that really matters. leaks. let's start with that. the president goes crazy over leaks. not just this president, all presidents. they think somebody in the white house is working for the other side. they're not sloppy, they're not lazy, they're energetically putting out stuff that will hurt the president as he walks through the hallways. they're out to screw the president and he hasn't been able to stop that. >> and this week we saw one of the most significant leaks with transcripts of calls between president trump and the leader of mexico and the leader of australia. some of these pretty tough cause. >> have you ever seen a like like that before? >> never the full transcript. >> so somebody physically has the transcript. runs to the post guy and gets out of the building with his payments. i have the whole transcript for you. and he hands them over in the most obnoxiously -- undermining
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way. and he or she knows they're doing this. and the president knows that too. >> and they know that it will end up in the "washington post." >> front page, top of the spread. >> and it shows the president negotiating over the wall with the mexican leader saying, you know, this is all going to come out in the wash. you won't have to pay for the wall. just don't say that to the press. i don't want to be embarrassed. so it shows trump is not quite the tough negotiator. >> you guys will never tell me but most people out there are going, if that's a political appointment, the guy is a rat. he shouldn't be working for a president. if it is a civil servant, the president must be looking for this guy right now. this general kelly must be on the beat saying who had access to that paper? what was the paper? the custody trail? how did it go after he got approved, national security had a stamp on it? i want to know every person had their fingers on it and i want
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to start interrogating they will. >> i think what's going on -- >> you want to talk about how you get this stuff. >> sessions scolded everyone today about this. but going forward, i can't imagine things will change. people knew yesterday that leaking this was against the law. politically, people are so motivated by this president to disclose things. you've never seen the amount of leaks. people are very unnerved by the president and they're willing to take troiks put things out there. >> why? >> because they believe there needs to be a lot more sunlight here. they believe the disclosures about flynn which led to flynn being fired. the disclosures about sessions which led to him being recused. >> why is it important that we know the president hung up on the prime minister of australia? why does that help the republic? >> i don't think it is our job to say like, no, we shouldn't go with this information we know.
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unless we're really harming national security, i think our thought is, if we have information, then we have -- >> the guy who put it out. you're reporters. you're supposed to report the news. why is a guy who is employed by the white house think it's their job to screw the president? >> i'm not going to get into their motivation. >> just asking. >> my sense is that people -- >> i'm amazed. >> if you're on the nsc and you're an obama holdover. >> you're doing what every reporter of the top paper has done to me. every time i raise the question of trade craft, law do you get this stuff in the white house, you're blalaughing. there is no limit to how much can get leaked. >> i think people think it is a lot easier than it is. it is never as easy, at least for me, as it looks. >> why am i looking every day the and there's a great story that's leaked? >> we're putting in an enormous
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amount of resources to cover this story. >> it's not people doing leaking thinking it is a higher calling for they will. >> but they're there by political appointments. their higher calling was to work for this guy. >> general kelly is probably there because of some what is out in public. >> i don't get leaking against someone who appointed you. >> there's always a line when you leave a white house. >> i'm all for the truth getting out. sometimes you like the get something done but you don't like the person who did it. >> this white house, there is also a lot of leaking as part of the palace intrigue, undermining your point within the administration. sometimes leaking something that will make someone else within the administration look bad and maybe allow to you get -- >> the roundtable is sticking with us. using artificial tears often and still have dry eye symptoms? ready for some relief? xiidra is the first and only eye drop approved
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take your time and tell me something i don't know. >> you remember the movie, the butler. enough to make you cry. >> oh, yeah. >> such a sacred duty, being an usher in the white house. you work your way up. a lot of military people hold job of chief usher. trump fired the chief usher of the white house and has put in place the clerk at the trump hotel here in washington as the chief usher. >> he's allowed to do that? >> yes, well, you know, you're president. you're allowed to -- >> i thought those jobs were protected. >> they're not civil service jobs. >> will this person have the dignity of the office? they're always very dignified. >> which the clerks at the hotel -- i'm thinking, you oversee about 100 people. it's a big job. >> grand people. >> despite speck blags mcmaster, the breitbart story, he's not going anywhere.
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>> does trump despise him? >> i think the president may think he talks too much, he may go on too long. >> trump won the election because of one thing. he said we'll get rid of this. he said we'll send in more trumans. the answer was never with how to end it. we have to keep sending in perpetuity. you want to survive in office, send more troops. >> we're 15 years in. afghanistan may give trump an opportunity for a foreign policy if he can figure it out. i don't know if the answer -- >> the generals say more troops. >> we would get to know more about his policy is if he would do a press conference lt it's been 169 days since the last press conference. we thought he would do one today. he's far behind president obama
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who had five press conferences at this point. >> you'll know general kelly is successful if general mcmaster stays. >> margaret carlson with a pro found comment there. when we return, trump watch.
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trump watch friday, august 4, 2017. last night it was a barn storming trip. it is what you do when you're about to head out of town. it seems like you're still here. it will no doubt work with supporters. they appreciate an august vacation and won't hold it against their hero but they are
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not the key figures in the story now. the key figures are those attorneys working at the justice department under bob mueller. with a mandate that might look at any matter that might arise until allegations. pay attention to the looks. compared to those hooting and hollering, caught up themselves in the hoopla. now look at the folks coming at trump. ties tightened, suits but ttone unsympathetic. i have a feeling these the best of the breed. if they can find a case, they're going to make and it make it solid. they didn't see this so it would dribble off into the last paragraphs of the history books. trump can say this is all fake with you this is not a phony war, this is the real thing. i can hold rally after rally, from west virginia to wyoming, and in the end what will count is not the cleverness of his
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name calling or the wildness of his charges, but through all the deals he broke the law that rules me, you and donald j. trump. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts now. tonight -- >> are there any russians here tonight? >> the counter offensive begins. >> they're trying to cheat you out of the leadership you want with a fake story. >> tonight, new details on the mueller investigation. as the white house attacks leakers and the president and his allies undercut the special prosecutor. >> i think mr. mueller is hurting his reputation. >> maxine waters. >> we would certainly object. >> what we know about investigators following trump's money and about those transcripts lt. >> what