that is our show for today. thanks for watching. "a.m. joy" will be back next weekend. up next, my friend, alex witt. >> you know what we're going to go to. we're going to talk about what's going on in thailand. hello to all of you. i am alex witt. high noon here in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. and here's what's happening right now. better than expected. that is the official word heading from the effort to -- heading the effort to rescue those 12 boys from a cave in thailand. the very first phase, it is now finished. >> this is an operation that could take up to 24 hours. >> it was taking six hours to go out and five hours to come back. so it was an 11-hour round trip. >> reporter: they've already. checked over by a full medical team that was waiting for them. >> they are the first of the 13 to be freed. >> how those boys are doing now

and when the next leg of the mission will begin. we've got live reports for you, ahead. worried or not about whether michael cohen will flip? new word just a short time ago from trump attorney rudy giuliani on that. plus, we'll soon find out the president's pick for the supreme court. the early indications with one day to go until that momentous announcement. we begin with the breaking news from thailand. the massive operation to rescue 12 boys and a soccer coach from a flooded underground cave. so four out of those twelve boys have been safely extracted from the caves, although depleted oxygen tanks have forced thai officials to suspend toerphe operation for a number of hours. in total, there are 90 divers involved. each child rescued so far brought out directly under a diver as they made their way through the cave. there are 13 international a divers who took part in this active rescue. but former ambassador bill richardson says local knowledge of the cave system is critical. >> i mean, these kids, they're

poor kids from humble families. some can't even swim. so it's a very difficult operation, but you have to be sensitized to the local incre e expertise, the local needs. >> nbc's bill neely and janis mackey frayer have been up all night covering this for us. we'll go first to you, bill neely. you've been watching all of this unfold at the cave's mouth. i want to know where things stand right now. and i've got to just say, looking at you, you look drenched with rain. i don't think that's a good sign. >> reporter: well, you can see, and i can feel exactly why this operation was launched, alex. this is monsoon rain and it's been much, much worse than this in the last few hours. so about three hours ago, right behind me, you can just make out some figures and red lights flashing. that's the entrance to the cave complex. and through that area, two

ambulances came about three hours ago. one ambulance with each of the first boys who had been extracted after a long operation, but one that passed much faster than anyone expected. and a few hours after that, again along that path and past us here, two more ambulances carrying two more boys. now, we don't know which boys they are. whether it's the youngest or the oldest. the weakest or the strongest. they haven't given us that information yet. but medical teams did assess which of the boys should go first. it was an extraordinary operation, as you've said. underneath each diver went one boy through the flooded sections. and you know, the beginning of their dive, of their long journey out was the most difficult. so it started with a team of more than a dozen divers. ten of them got to the actual apex, to the ledge where those

boys have been for two weeks and one day. ten divers there. there was a support team of three, a mix of international and thai divers. and then they selected two and then another two. and those groups went slowly through the cave. wading through, walking at some point, but also diving with the rudimentary diving tuition that they've had. and as you said, we're really not sure how many of those boys can swim at all. some of them can clearly do rudimentary floating techniques, but some of them clearly cannot swim at all. and remember, the route they were going along is a potential death trap, because a highly trained, highly experienced dhooithai diver collapsed in the water and died a few days ago. so those boys, as well as clinging to the underside of their buddies, of their professional divers, will also

have clung to guide ropes along the way. there will have been a several-mile-long oxygen tube, if you like, to try to help them along. but underfoot, you know, terribly difficult. you know, some of the boulders inside that cave system we've been told, you know, are as big as vehicles and trucks. so an extraordinarily dangerous, perilous trip. so four out, nine still to go. again, we don't know if the adult is still inside the cave. you would assume that the coach would be the last one to leave, but we haven't been told that. and the operation, alex, was launched in the most dramatic fashion, with the commander saying, basically, it's now or never. this is d-day. this is a window of opportunity we cannot let go. and as we said, alex, right at the beginning, it's the falling rain, number one, and the falling oxygen levels inside the cave system that made this

absolutely imperative. the rescuers had a red line. and it passed some time this morning, maybe about 12 hours ago, where the amount of rain falling and going into the cave system was outbalancing the rainwater that they could pump out. they've pumped out millions of gallons of rainwater. but you know, it doesn't take long for the rain that's falling here right now to fill up that cave system. and that just -- and that is the danger to the boys still inside the cave now. how long can they be left? the oxygen tanks have run out. they're being resupplied. and we don't have a time yet when the next rescue operation will begin. because they're trying to resupply the tanks and resupply the teams. so an extraordinary operation here, alex. >> well, a lot has been accomplished thus far. but clearly, bill, there's a lot more to go. and i'm sure everyone there is waiting on pins and needles to get the operations underway once

again. bill neely, thank you so much. we'll check in was you again. let's go to our colleague, janis mackey frayer who's been positioned just outside of the hospital there. where you can confirm that four of the boys are there, beginning to receive much-needed medical treatment. how about the families? do we know if they are reunited with them, as well? >> reporter: the expectation was that the families were going to be waiting for the boys at the cave entrance to be reunited there, so that their relative's faces were the first one as they would see when they had come out what would be 16 days of darkness. three boys were brought by helicopter, one came by road in the ambulance. the helicopters were landing at the end of this street here and being transferred to the ambulances, drove right past us to the hospital behind, where they're being cared for on a floor that's been cleared just for them. doctors, nurses, psychologists are going to be paying very

close attention to these boys in the coming days. they've already been checked for their breathing, especially given the completed levels of oxygen and deteriorating quality of the air in the cave system over the last week. that was prompting so much concern. they'll also be checked for signs of hypothermia. they'll have help with their nutrition to get it back on track. the boys have not eaten for over a week. they had some high-protein gels that they had begun to ingest after being discovered earlier in the week by the two british divers. but they have not yet had solid food. so these are very small steps that these boys are going to have to make toward their roi recovery. then there's also their emotional health that will need to be addressed, and in some cases dealt with. sitting alone in the dark for 16 days, unsure of when they were going to get out, uncertain about the rescue mission and knowing that they had to

navigate these very tight passages, boys who had never even known how to swim. so it has been, obviously, quite an ordeal. one that has captivated the world and focused all attention on this cave and tonight on this hospital, as these boys begin their recovery. >> all right, janis mackey frayer, that comprehensive report, thank you so much for giving us that and that timeline. those boys are now getting some much-needed treatment. let's bring in cave diving instructor at the international underwater cave rescue and recovery institution, ed sorenson. thank you for rejoining us. we spoke earlier about the pe l perils that these boys and those expert divers had to face. i have to say, being a scuba diver myself, in very limited circumstances, nothing like this in terms of cave diving, my eyes popped when i heard that these boys were brought underneath the divers. when you look at the kinds of equipment that these kids have to wear.

they have regulators in their mouth to deliver the oxygen they need, they probably have oxygen tanks on them, i don't even know how to envision this. can you help describe in extreme circumstances like this, how someone would travel through a cave of this nature underneath a diver and do it successfully? >> it just shows those kids' resolve. how they stayed calm and collected through the ordeal in the darkness, with no food or water, for the first nine days was unbelievable. and then there's a lot of -- most people in the world couldn't do what these kids are being asked to do. so it's the worst of the worst environment to possibly have your first time with breathing on scuba. especially for kids that don't even know how to swim, which means they probably haven't been

in the water much. or at least submerged in the water much. so it's fantastic that some of them are out and nothing short of miraculous against all odds. >> it sure is. and ed, there's an area called here a "t" junction, it's one of the bfive biggest concerns and challenges for these expert divers to bring these kids through. to your point, these narrow areas. but this "t" junction is being described as a tunnel that has a passageway going up and coming down narrowly and you have to turn a bit. and it is very small. that sounds absolutely extraordinary. i mean, there is zero room for error there. >> well, in dry caving, that's a tough scenario, just to get through when you can see and you have air around you and you don't have scuba apparatus and you don't have scuba apparatus that you have never breathed on before. and then in zero visibility and then usually when you -- the flow seems to cease or reduce,

so anytime you get to a small restriction, the flow usually increases. so luckily the flow is down, but, yeah, that's an unbelievably daunting task, especially for what these kids have gone through. >> you know, ed, listen. let's talk about just the duration of this 2 1/2-mile journey for these kids, much of it via scuba. when they get closer to the end of the cave, the last three quarters of a mile they'll be able to walk, because that's deemed to be clear and pretty rain free. but that, you combine the duration with their weakness and having to literally swim upstream against the currents win mean, it is absolutely extraordinary, these challenges that at least four of them have successfully mastered. >> yeah, the likelihood of people making it through that are inexperienced, through one or two of the obstacles they have, the restrictions, the overhead, the high flow, the zero vis, the inexperience is

remarkable. and to try to be asked to do that with all of the worst of the worst things that you could possibly pile on somebody, and then at that young age. i mean, we don't even allow divers to start a cavern -- a cave diving until they're 18. >> it's all very extraordinary, including what you're bringing to illuminating the situation for us, ed sorenson. thank you so much for joining us here on msnbc and all of this breaking news. and for all of you, we'll keep a very close eye on what's happening in thailand and bring you any developments, as they happen. meantime, the senate majority leader weighs in on the president's pick for the supreme court. who has mitch mcconnell's support and why? wiehl share that next. guys let'! let's do this directions to the greek theater (beep) ♪can i get a connection? ♪can i get can i get a connection?♪ ♪can i get a connection?

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we are back with a live picture of capitol hill and some new insight into ramped up efforts by the senate majority leader to avoid roadblocks once the president announces his pick for the supreme court justice tomorrow night. republican officials briefed on these conversations telling "the new york times" that senator mitch mcconnell told the president, judges raymond kethledge and thomas hardiman presented the fewest obstacles to being confirmed. now, according to the times, mcconnell said judge brent catt kavanaugh would pose dich difficulties for his nomination and also had reservations for amy coney barrett. joining me now, kate martell,

and john nichols, national correspondent for "the nation." a great sunday to both of you. ladies first here. kate, with you, is the presid t president's legal team officially closing the door on any potential sit-down between the president and the special counsel? we'll get back to the supreme court in a second, but i want to get to this with you. >> yes, alex. i think that it is safe to say that rudy giuliani is starting to shut the door for a potential sit-down. i think the president's strategy right now has been to be combative about this russia investigation for months, but behind the scenes, his lawyers have been pro-kind of doing their homework and figuring out if that's the right move for the president to sit down with mueller. but now we're seeing this major switch. we're seeing the president's lawyer, headed by rudy giuliani saying, hey, we're going to need you to show us evidence that the president did commit a crime. so this is this major shift. and i think we are going to see going forward that the chances of the president sitting down are low and let's say that mueller does then subpoena the

president, we can expect that to be blocked. and that will be a legal nightmare. so i think the chances are definitely slimmer now. >> yeah, and john, looking at some poll numbers, there's a new one out there, which found that 45% of americans disapprove of how robert mueller is handling this investigation. and the notable point there is it's 14 points increased from january. so overall, war the implications, especially going into the midterms for this? these numbers don't really affect robert mueller, per se, his investigation, per se, but there's a lot of outside factors that those numbers do affect. >> sure, this investigation has always been fraught with politics. not because of mueller, but because of all of the other players who exist round it, particularly the president and those in his inner circle. and what rudy giuliani is doing here is really upping the ante on that politics. his suggestion, essentially, that mueller and his team have to prove that they aren't engaged in a witch hunt. i mean, they have to prove a negative, right?

>> mm-hmm. >> is an incredibly politicized approach to this. one that rudy giuliani would have objected to vociferously when he was a u.s. attorney. and so we have to see it in that context. it's clear that giuliani is going out and setting a new standard and a very, very difficult standard. and he will press it. others around him will press it. and the result is that certainly among trump backers, there will begin to be a sense that if mueller can't, quote/unquote prove it's not a witch hunt, he shouldn't be able to sit with the president. that's absurd, but it is at a standard that i think is being out there. >> i'm going to welcome into our conversation right now, nbc's kelly o'donnell. she's been following the president, at his home there in bedminster. okay, kelly, with regard to giuliani and what he's been saying, not only has he been speak on the talk shows, trying to clarify all of the points, he's spoken directly to you on the phone.

so what are you gathering? is there a clarification by which giuliani would or would not allow an interview with the president? >> in my conversations with rudy giuliani, alex, the lawyer for the president is saying that they want to demonstrate from the special counsel team that there is some probable cause for a crime that would be linked to the president. they acknowledged, obviously, there, indictments involving a number of other figures, paul manafort, michael flynn, and others, but they're saying, is there some legal basis that would take the issue of inclusion or introduction to the president. so tell us if you have found something that suggests there's a crime that could be tied to the president as your reason for wanting to interview him. that is asking a lot of the special counsel team. they have not heard an answer yet, according to giuliani. they expect to hear something soon. but he did point out that they didn't flatly reject it, if that

was even an option. we just don't know that. but part of what they're doing is legal strategy, part of it is public relation strategy in order to try to discredit the investigation, while not attacking robert mueller personally, in the eyes of voters, and at the same time, trying to make it appear that they've been cooperative all along, and there was part of the legal strategy early on to provide documents and to encourage people around the president to cooperate by giving testimony. but not the president himself, just yet. so rudy giuliani was on "meet the press" today and he talked a bit more about what they're looking to hear from the mueller team in order to satisfy the possibility of an interview. >> we would not recommend an interview for the president, unless they can satisfy us, that there's some, some basis for this investigation. it's our firm belief, and we think nothing contradicts this, that the president did nothing wrong. in all the leaking that's gone

on, there's been no leak of any fact that says that the president conspired with anybody in russia. i know from having been on the campaign that there was no contact with russians, no discussion with russians. so we've got to see something. i mean, something started this investigation. what we're asking for is, is this the witch hunt that a lot of people think it is? or is there a factual basis for this? >> reporter: and you get the sense that at this point, despite all the president's personal comments, where he said he would love to cooperate, he would love to testify, he would be happy to sit down with robert mueller, at this point, the recommendation from his lawyers is, no, unless there is some new development from the mueller team. so, it is part of strategy and the timing, of course, is that this is getting closer and closer to midterm elections and one of the biggest audiences for the outcome of the russia investigation, wherever it reaches its conclusion, is the voters. and will there be a change,

particularly in the house of representatives, to democratic control, where they could use that authority to proceed with impeachment if they found grounds to do so. so there's a political element, a legal element, and trying to get a sense out of the special counsel team, where they find the president's role in, if at all. obviously, michael flynn, the former national security adviser was charged with lying, paul manafort was charged with financial crimes that predate the campaign. there have been others in the environment. giuliani also told me that he believes that based on the conversations that they've had with the special counsel team, that there would be no questions to the president about michael cohen. that, orvef course, is the form personal lawyer. if they're closing that door, they do not comment day-to-day on this. they're trying to narrow the pipeline of possible reasons why the president would need to do this. and they're trying to discredit the underlying investigation at the same time. >> kelly o'donnell, thank you for that comprehensive report on that. so let's get right now back to kate and john.

you guys, i did promise you a question each on the scotus nominations. things are being played very close to the vest from the white house, although we have this interpretation from mitch mcconnell on who he thinks would have a better chance of getting through the nomination process, that being raymond kethledge and thomas hardiman. i'm curious if you agree with that, kate. thomas hard minnesoiman is a ve second amendment extremist. wouldn't that pose some problems, you think, given the nature about the feelings to have gun control and challenges that way throughout this country? >> yes, alex, i think that judge hardiman does pose these issues, as we are seeing the shootings as of late, and that is very topical in national politics right now. but also, i like to remember, too, that trump's sister, also a judge, has worked with judge hardiman and he was a finalist when fthe president ended up picking judge neil gorsuch. so he is this popular pick. and when you look at judges

cavanaulve cavanaugh and barrett. republicans really want to lock this down. so if senator mitch mcconnell, he knows the votes and if he thinks that hardiman and kethledge are the easier ways to get. the confirmation process quickly, those are the ways. so i wouldn't be surprised if we see one of those two get the final pick. >> and john, do you think that by mcconnell making this statement publicly, going there, he is signaling to the president, as well, like, these are your two best choices? because to the best of our knowledge, the president is still making up his mind. there have been reports of last-minute scurrying and scrambling and politicking and lobbying for various different candidates. but when you look at, let's say, raymond kethledge right now, he doesn't exactly fit the prototype of the president saying, i've got to have some, you know, high, i guess, education, he says, yale, harvard, although certainly university of michigan is one of the top countries as well.

but doesn't have necessarily that brand name. do you think mcconnell will be able to flups influence the president's decision, ultimately? >> i think the president plays a lot of games with this stuff. and i think mcconnell may believe these two are strong candidates. but the thing to understand is that this really all comes down to susan collins and lisa murkowski. those are the two senate republicans who might flip and go with senate democrats. it also relates to democrats who might not stick with their caucus on a court fight. so when you talk about guns, for instance, a judge who's very, perhaps, seen by some as out there on the second amendment, that's a candidate who might have appeal to some of those democrats from western states. similarly, i think that the president is going to be looking at this in a very political sense. this is about mobilizing from the midterms. and from that standpoint, a

judge like kethledge or amy coney barrett, who are very well regarded by social conservatives, might be extremely strong candidates. so, i would listen to what mcconnell says, understand that he is really a master strategist on this. but also understand that at the end of the day, the president is going to be looking for somebody who, frankly, will improve the president's decision politically and that may not necessarily be one of the two that mcconnell has mentioned. >> it is interesting. it could be potentially a political short-term gain. someone who has a job for three or four decades in the long run. john nichols and kate martell, thank you so much. appreciate your insights. four boys rescued after making a treacherous journey through a cave in thailand, but what medical challenges could they now face? we'll ask an expert, next.

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a total of 90 divers are involved. there are 40 thai divers and 50 international divers. each child rescued so far has reportedly been brought out, directly under a diver, as they made their perilous way out of that cave. let's bring in dr.erland with the children's health fund. it's of tantamount importance that these kids get the correct medical treatment. if you were treating them, what would you look for. >> we would look for skin rashes, fun ggal infections, the are certain diseases, especially those carried by ticks, a chronic cough, other conditions. but i'm assuming most of those things will be identified and taken care of if they are, in fact, a problem. more importantly, we want to make sure that the mental health issues are covered. these kids have been traumatized. although i will say, this is a really resilient bunch of young people with a very excellent

leader in this 25-year-old coach, who took them in there in the first place. but these kids have been trained to be young athletes. they're resilient, they're strong. i think they've been really energized by all of the outside attention and this extraordinary team of international experts are going to get them out of there. so i'm not really all that worried about any of this. although paying attention to the psychological needs, as well as the medical issues will be key. >> look, we've talked to people who have experienced similar entrapment inside of caves and spending so much time in a dark place like that. little things like the ping, ping, ping of the dripping of water and wondering if that then means more water is rushing their way. so there has to be a baseline element of fear, apprehension. because you do not know what's happening, and you're in the dark. >> you're in the dark. and this is incredibly disorienting, for anybody. i would be a complete basketcase after about two hours in there. but these children managed to survive with their 29-year-old

leader for nine days before they were even discovered, which is a remarkable thing. and i think that or tends vepor good for them. >> their leader, he was trained the as a buddhist monk. they do a lot of meditation. some people might poo poo that, but the reality is, that can help. >> extremely important. and i think that would be one of the things that could help kids or anybody, really, get through an ordeal like that. but really important, knowing how to relax and even in the face of unbelievable uncertainty and danger and loss of life, to be able to sustain a level of calm, be ready for those rescuers, it's an amazing story, that's going to resonate for a long time. and a really piece of good news for all of those children and the guy that helped neutralize, maybe, some of the c-- constant flow of bad news we're hearing every day. >> wouldn't that be nice. the four rescued so far is being

dee deemed as miraculous. back here in the u.s., we're getting new details on how mitch mcconnell thinks the president should pick for supreme court justice. that is if he wants to replicate the swift confirmation we saw with neil gorsuch last year. republican officials are tell "the new york times" that mcconnell is nudging the president towards nominating judge kethledge or hardiman and that judges kavanaugh and coney-barrett could be problematic to get confirmed. let's bring in amy hardick. so is mcconnell spot on or do you see some issues with it? >> i think it's an interesting choice. and obviously, the president is going to consider what senator mcconnell has to say, but i think when push comes to shove, the president is going to be the one making the decision. and many senate republicans have said that these are all strong choices. you know, judge kavanaugh, on the one hand, has a very long

track record, and that's said to be a concern for senator mcconnell, not only his over a decade on the bench, but also all the papers from his years in the george. with bush administration and working on the ken starr investigation. and on the other hand, judge barrett has a very short track record, because she's only been on the u.s. court of appeals for the seventh circuit for a few months. you know, judges hardiman and kethledge both have roughly a decade, i think, that judge kethledge celebrated his tenth anniversary on the bench yesterday, but without the sort of extra baggage, so to speak, of time in the executive branch. >> yeah. i want to get your take, amy, on a "washington post" report on how religious liberty is the main focus for conservatives. but wouldn't a nominee who speaks out loudly on this issue, wouldn't that person be scrutinized, since abortion rights fall under the umbrella of religious liberties? i would suspect that in talking about this issue, it is mostly focused on amy coney barrett

right now and her affiliation with a very, very conservative catholic group called the people of praise organization. >> i think that's right. but as we saw during amy coney barrett's confirmation hearing, going after a nominee too strongly on religious liberties can backfire. the famous line from her confirmation hearing was dianne feinstein saying, the dogma lives loudly within you, because she believed that amy coney barrett's faith might play a role in her judging. and it didn't torpedo her nomination, and in fact, made her somewhat of a heroine among social conservatives and probably one of the reasons why she's on the president's short list. >> all right, amy howe, too brief, but thank you for joining us. coming up, rudy giuliani claims president trump is anxious to sit down with robert mueller and cites himself and the rest of the president's legal team as the reason he

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alright guys let's go! let's do this directions to the greek theater (beep) ♪can i get a connection? ♪can i get can i get a connection?♪ ♪can i get a connection?

new developments today in the russia investigation, as president trump's lawyer rudy giuliani discusses the possibility of a presidential interview with the special counsel. >> have you simply determined that the president is not going to sit down for -- >> we have not. we're close to determining that. mueller hired originally as his chief investigator a man that has some kind of vicious bias against donald trump. out of all the fbi agents, how

you could select that guy is beyond me. george, he wants to testify. he believes -- >> it's hard to believe that anymore, mr. mayor. >> well, it is hard to believe given all the things that have shown how tainted this investigation is. this is the most corrupt investigation i have ever seen that the justice department is allowing to ining to go forward. >> joining me now is barbara mcquade. can i ask you to react to what you heard mr. giuliani say? he made some pretty strong accusations there. >> the more we hear from rudy giuliani, the more it's clear that his role is to be the public relations lawyer as opposed to the legal adviser. you know, the suggestion that the investigation is tainted, i think he's referring to former fbi agent peter strzok, or the agent that was formally involved in the investigation, who has been off the investigation for over a year. you know, robert mueller is the lead investigator here, who was appointed by rod rosenstein, who himself was appointed by president trump. so the idea that this group is viciously out to get the president, i think, is

nonsensical and is really, instead, a pr campaign, as opposed to reflecting reality. >> okay. let's look at what rudy giuliani is saying with regard to having his legal as opposed to pr hat on. and that is that special counsel robert mueller needs to prove factual basis for the investigation and that his client's testimony is essential to completing the probe. so, is mueller legally required at this point in time to turn over any of his findings to the president's team? >> no, both of those things are wrong, as a party of law. number one, the prosecutor does not have to show any evidence of any crime before someone has to speak. there's a long body of law that says something like, the grand jury is entitled to every man's evidence. and so, by his sworn duty to uphold the constitution, robert mueller has the right to serve a subpoena if they want to work a voluntary interview out instead, they can do that. but there's no duty -- imagine if that was the case, in every case, where someone was being investigated, they first had to say, you show me what uyou have

against me and then i'll decide whether i want you to talk to me. the whole system would fall apart. i think robert mueller is showing incredible deference to president trump, and at some point he needs to make a decision whether he serves a subpoena and risks that constitutional crisis or decides to simply forego it. is it necessary in every single case to talk to a target? no. it's useful especially when someone is charged with having a corrupt intent to tell their side of the story. but if president trump does not want to avail himself of that opportunity to tell his side of the story, i think robert mueller will just move on. >> very quickly, before i let you go, i'll ask will to put up a tweet that the president out there with regard to public opinion. with regard to that, does the president damage his own potential defense by continuing to chime in and sort of partake in these attacks? >> i think that most lawyers would advise their client not to talk in these situations, because all of those tweets are official statements that could be used against him at some point later down the road in court. but i think it is a unique situation when you're the president of the united states,

and to the extent the ultimate fact finder here is congress in an impeachment proceeding, then public opinion matters. and if he can poison the well through his tweets, maybe he sees it as being well served to do so and it may be an effective strategy. >> msnbc contributor, barbara mcquade, thank you so much on this sunday. >> thank you. productive or gangster like? what's behind the starkly different views of the same meetings between the u.s. and north korea? got legs of lumber and arms of steel ♪ ♪ he eats a bowl of hammers at every meal ♪ ♪ he holds your house in the palm of his hand ♪ ♪ he's your home and auto man ♪ big jim, he's got you covered ♪ ♪ great big jim, there ain't no other ♪ -so, this is covered, right? -yes, ma'am. take care of it for you right now. giddyup! hi! this is jamie. we need some help. alright guys let's go! let's do this directions to the greek theater (beep) ♪can i get a connection?

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it is scheduled to resume around 7:00 a.m. monday morning local time there is the latest estimate. we'll have more at the top of the hour. new tensions between the u.s. and north korea, this after north korea blasted talks with mike pompeo. they are accused of having a gangster-like nuclear weapons demands. pompeo respond to do that overnight. >> i am determined to achieve

the success that president trump had, and i'm determined to see that kim follows through on the promises he made. if it's gangster, then the world is a gangster because there was talks with the council about what needs to be achieved. >> former dnc chairman and msnbc contributor and also an msnbc political analyst. welcome to you both. susan, if you look at the point of these talks with pompeo as the reason for the gangster rebuke, is there something bigger at play here, do you think? >> absolutely. first and foremost, it looks like director pompeo came back with nothing. and last week i was speaking with gordon chang who i believe you have coming up in the next hour, and he said that would be the worst case scenario. gordon chang san expert on north korea matters. and, you know, now we have to look at what are the next steps? do we go back to maximum pressure or not?

clearly donald trump took him at his word, and it means nothing. and this is a lot of embarrassment for donald trump. cia director pompeo is trying to make something come out of this, but boy, is this embarrassing for the president. >> you know, howard, from a political perspective, you have democrats who aren't surprised one bit by all of this. nobody expected to take kim jong-un at his word there. but now that we are here, what do democrats think is the best path forward? >> it's hard to say. what really happened here is that trump never did -- first of all, kim jong-un's word is not worth anything, and second of all, trump didn't get it. trump came home and claimed there was an agreement. there was no agreement. the paper is public. it said nothing about denuclearizing north korea. so in this case, this is a case of trump blowing his mouth off, as he always does, without thinking about what he's doing, with no plan, going over and meeting kim, which kim has

wanted to do for a long time, and then being shocked and surprised when kim does what he did to every other american president, which is say one thing and do something else. this is what happens when you have a guy who doesn't think about what he's doing as president of the united states. >> and when the president said he would no longer allow training exercises to go on, that concerned our allies. this is a big problem internationally, and besides embarrassment, there is real things at risk here. >> yeah. and to your point, the president canceled those exercises with south korea that were scheduled for next month. making a concession to north korea, though, in all his tweets and comments about it saying there were no concessions so far, that was a big one. can you tell me how we're looking next week? we have the nato summit and then the summit with vladimir putin. what are the expectations for that, and will what is happening

now with north korea influence, do you think, the meeting with trump and putin? >> the president's word is no good to anybody, and everybody understands that all over the globe. it doesn't really matter what he says, because you can't count on his word. you know, to have eight republican senators go over and kiss putin you-know-where over the fourth of july weekend was shocking. i can't imagine having that when george w. bush or george h.p. bush or ronald reagan was president of the united states. this party is so much in disarray. they're so is afraid of trump that they're kissing putin you-know-where. i think the republican party is completely shot and they stand for nothing. >> we have rudy giuliani brushing aside the notion that cohen could flip on the president. take a listen. >> i don't know what he has to flip over. what i do know is there is no

evidence of wrongdoing with president trump. so if he believes it's in his best interest to cooperate, god bless him. he should cooperate. i don't believe michael cohen is going to lie. i believe he'll tell the truth the best he can to his recollection -- >> and you believe the truth involves nothing that is negative or even worse for president trump? >> yeah. i'm very confident of that, and i think we all should be, because mueller would not have given it away if he had any hope of producing evidence against the president. >> do you think rudy giuliani is being overconfident here given the fact that rudy giuliani said the president is devoted first and foremost to his country? >> clearly giuliani is devoted to making trump happy. this is nothing different than a pr lawyer. the fact is they must be scared with what is happening with michael cohen, otherwise we wouldn't have seen the president

be so outraged with the fbi raid. they have to be concerned. there's very little doubt about it. michael cohen has done too much work for the president. >> and to you, howard, very quickly, your thoughts? >> i think that's exactly right. i think rudy, alan dershowitz and lanny all have one thing in common, they try cases in the press a lot more than they try them in court. i think that's why lanny davis got taken on by michael cohen. michael cohen knows more about donald trump's business dealings more than anybody else except maybe the trump family. i think if cohen -- now, i think cohen is sending a signal saying, you better pardon me or else, but if cohen spills the beans, trump is going to jail, somebody with the last name of trump is going to jail. >> okay. well, that is a big statement right there. we'll see if that comes true. howard dean, susan persio, have a good week ahead. meanwhile, officials in thailand are regrouping right

now preparing for the second day of their l mission. what is next for those boys stillk! trapped in the cave? stes husband isn't a lawyer, call legalzoom and we'll connect you with an attorney. legalzoom. where life meets legal.

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this dramatic rescue is underway, and so far it's going faster and perhaps better than expected. >> next, d-day in thailand after two harrowing weeks trapped in a thai