street from o.j.'s house, sixth grade. i do really want to thank seth meyers for having me on last night, it was a really good time. and that will be all for tonight. back on monday with more "mtp daily." and in the meantime, "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> katy, it looks like you had fun last night. how dare you, what is that expression, that you were using? >> how dare you? >> how dare you? >> how dare you violate my privacy as a sixth grader? how dare you? you want to spy on me mom and dad? i would like to have my cheese fries without you knowing about it. >> if you text, do you ever shorten it to hdy, as a brief? >> it doesn't get the same impact. you have to type it out in full words, and with periods after each word, how, period, dare, period, you, period, question mark, exclamation point. >> and this is my last question, you've had a long and busy week. >> i'm here for the 10:00 tonight, so keep going, yeah, i

got time. >> what is the best emoji to go after how dare you? >> oh, gosh, hold on, hold on. i don't have it. the robot. i don't know, that's a funny one. the robot just is funny to me. >> it's good. i like a good bunny ear emoji. it softens the blow of anything. >> most of our viewers right now are doing the puke emoji. >> that hurts my feelings a little bit. katy tur, see you at 10:00 p.m. tonight. >> ari melber, always good to see you, have a wonderful weekend, my friend. >> thank you. we begin tonight with new reports that there is a tape, that donald trump is on it, and that michael cohen made it. why is this news breaking right now as this legal pressure builds across the board on trump's lawyer and fixer michael cohen and the white house has continue today battle back a scandal of putin proportions that's engulfed it all week? i can tell you, i'm very excited to learn some of the answers, we have several key people who can shed light on this question

tonight. michael cohen taped donald trump two months before the 2016 election, and they discussed secret payments potentially to be made to former playboy model karen mcdougal who had a relationship with trump in 2006. she has -- we'll get to that. what else do you need to know? investigators have this tape. the fbi seizing it from cohen's office in april after that raid cohen's opponent in the stormy daniels case made some news on this show by declaring he knew for a fact this type of tape existed. >> i know for a fact that donald trump is on at least one of these recordings, ari. >> how do you know that? >> i'm not going to get into details of how i know that, ari. >> would you say that in court? >> absolutely. donald trump is on one of the recordings, at least one of them, i know that for a fact. i stand behind it. >> stands behind it. and today that fact being reported, michael joins me tonight with more. the white house is making clear

it doesn't like this news at all and that it was caught off guard, a source saying trump didn't know he was being recorded while his lawyers are probing what other potential tapes could reveal. they're also trying to put word out tonight that any other recordings that my exist are, quote, not substantive. this story has moved fast. so it is worth keeping the context in mind. these leaks make cohen look like something of a threat to donald trump. as michael cohen relies on his own lawyers to defend himself and a top hillary clinton aide. it was just three months ago, only three months ago in this lightningening warp speed era we live in that president trump was telling people on air force one cohen was still his attorney, meaning on his side, and that cohen could take all the tough questions on trump's behalf. >> you have to ask michael cohen. michael's my attorney and you'll have to ask michael. >> i haven't spoken to michael in a long time. >> a long time. in a moment i'm going to speak to former federal prosecutor

john flannery about this, as well another lawyer for donald trump jay goldberg. we have a lot to get to. but i begin with megan tuwey who has covered this extensively. we've gotten analysis by many cases which involve allegations by women who have had contact with russia. megan, this original allegation against trump, how did these women get us to this place, and why is michael cohen looking like he might be taking revenge out on the president? >> it's turned into a legal rat's nest for the president. what we know about what happened in 2016 toward the end of the presidential race was -- well, two things. one, that there were payments made to women who claimed consensual affairs with the president. one was made directly by michael cohen, the stormy daniels

payment, another made through american media, inc., the parent company to the "national enquirer." trump has been insistent in the beginning saying he didn't know anything about these payments. michael cohen said he handled them on his own. and i think what we've seen today is more new evidence that would suggest that the president was actually certainly aware, much closer to the time of the payments if not at the actual time of the payment. in the case of the american media. >> which means what? >> these payments with significant because they're being investigated as campaign finance violations. >> and it would seem to imply that he was lying about it before. >> that is one way to read it. and so the question is, yeah, not just -- if he's been lying about it. but, in fact, was he a direct participant in these payments? was he aware of them at the time? and if so, that could basically plunge him into the heart of

this criminal -- one aspect of this criminal investigation. >> liz, let me read more from this reporting in your publication, giuliani saying trump told cohen if he were to make a payment to ms. mcdougal, write a cash, so it could be properly documented. if there is a case, if there is a bear, if there is a case, quote, it's not clear whether a federal judge would rule on whether prosecutors can even listen to the recording, and we'll get later to the lawyers here. but whether or not prosecutors get it, it's in the "new york times" for a reason tonight. is it because michael cohen is continuing to try to give the president a hard time? >> maybe when michael cohen told donald trump that he wouldn't record his conversations, maybe he meant that he would. >> wow. i think that's a double negative burn. >> yeah, right. but if there's one person that would understand that, it would be donald trump, right? making that kind of mistake. so clearly, you know, michael cohen has used different ways of communicating with donald trump

in a very sort of sug way where we're all aware of it. whether it's with tweets he's done or meetings he's had with the show literally called trump tapes. i believe in sort of inching at the idea that there are these tapes. today it's very clear that we don't know who leaked this story, or who leaked this information, but given the reporting, i think it's pretty clear that it might be coming from michael cohen himself. so he's trying to speak to trump. he's trying to, you know, always the idea of the pardon and him wanting this pardon is always in the backdrop. and clear, i think, with this story. >> i think the point liz makes, wouldn't not be a bad theory. by which i mean, i'm sorry, double negative, i botched it. >> it's really hard to do. >> it's interesting, too, that giuliani in defending trump on this tape said he wasn't aware he was being recorded at the time. and that raises a couple

questions. was michael cohen in the habit of secretly recording the president in the process of representing him. and two, why did he feel compelled to secretly record him about this matter? >> uh-huh. let me bring in john flannery on some of these questions. mr. flannery, when you look at everything you just heard, what is the legal significance? >> well, in terms of the law, the campaign violations are an obvious one. but in terms of the strength of the evidence to show that, i thought the times story just before the quote that you had was significant because it shows knowledge of both men, cohen and trump, of what ami is doing with play mate mcdougal. he says should we buy her story directly? or should we buy it from ami? and that suggests -- and then the question is, should we pena check or should we do it by cash? he's encouraging cohen, trump is encouraging cohen to do it by check, which strikes me as

bizarre. and you have do wonder if this was also a pattern to reimburse ami for what they'd already done. >> let's slow down a bit. we're getting into the initials. you're talking about the "national enquirer" parent company, you're talking about whether there was an elicit plot to misuse or abuse that organization, that media company to secretly try to buy people off and bury their story. that's a big no-no to use a legal term. we spoke to mcdougal's lawyer about this. take a listen to what he was saying. we've been reporting this out for some time. a lot of different reporters have been working different angles of the story on what does look very shady. take a listen. >> sure. >> was the "national enquirer" acting as the arm of donald trump and michael cohen, if so, is there something wrong with that? >> we strongly suspect they were. >> can you prove it? >> if the lawsuit had continued, we would have been able to prove it. >> john? >> yes. well, here's the thing about the abuse. i think what we have is we have

a long standing relationship, which has been well reported, between ami, mr. pecker, and mr. trump, and in which they have helped each other from time to time, and both favoring mr. trump and killing other stories. what they did with the mcdougal story was they paid her 150,000 and then kill it had story and tried to tie her down with that contract. that's an abusive situation in which they said this is a story that's going to run. you don't pay $150,000 for a dog and then they didn't run it. the only person who profits from that is candidate trump. and so these conversations -- they did that in august. so these conversations in september only a month later seem to fit naturally with an ongoing scheme. should we now pay her directly? should we buy the rights to the story from ami or the enquirer? that shows a continuing knowledge of what's going on. all the denials by trump are after that. >> and megan speak to the point that michael cohen may have had

some inkling that he had exposure on this, if he kept the tapes secret from donald trump, he wasn't making the tape for donald trump, was he making the tape at that time that he thought he had the presence of mind that there might be something shady that would backfire on him? >> there are certain things we don't know. but that certainly raises the question of what was the motivation to secretly tape the president on that issue at that time? i mean, this is the thing about tapes, right, tapes don't lie. i mean, you can have disputes about a conversation you had back in 2016 with a he said/she said, tapes don't lie, so it's significant -- that's a huge significance of this tape. >> liz, as you said, scales don't lie, the tapes don't lie either. i want to bring in jay goldberg, donald trump's exclusive chief litigator from 1992 to 2012, his adviser as well, and he's

retained attorney/client privilege. jay, appreciate your time coming on "the beat." this is a big night. do you think these leaks are in the "new york times" because of michael cohen, and did you ever secretly record donald trump without his knowledge as a lawyer, or is that something only michael cohen did? >> i don't think that's unique to michael cohen. it's not unique to a wrong doer in a relationship with somebody who maybe a co conspirator. >> not unique to a what? >> to a co-conspirator. if somebody is doing something wrongful, then they might be concerned about their own position. and they'll tape record it to see if it can be used later on to win the cooperation of the

government. >> do you think -- you're saying something so powerful, jay, i want to make sure we're hearing you right. are you saying michael cohen viewed himself as having exposure as a co-conspirator at that time? >> yes, absolutely. i might point out when i represented donald actively, he referred david pecker to me. so the relationship between the enquirer and trump is extremely close. but make no mistake, michael cohen was concerned about his own position. he wanted to stay in the good graces of trump because trump essentially was his only client. but he had the presence of mind to know that he was treading on shaky ground. and he had to have something that he could sell to a prosecutor should the matter explode. >> do you think david pecker, who oversees this media empire, do you think he has any potential exposure for doing

things that really weren't under his obligations and fiduciary duties to that company, but rather were some other sort of scheme or plot? >> i think he has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. and he, too, has exposure. but i'm concerned about michael cohen, if you spend five minutes with michael cohen, you know that he's not strong. he's weak. it's odd to say this. but when he said that he would stand up for the president, i knew from talking with him for less than five minutes that he was sufficiently weak, that he would cave in with respect to any wrongdoing. >> what do you mean by weak, though, do you mean he would tell the truth about his history or he would be intimidated by prosecutors? >> he couldn't be counted on to protect the person who was paying him.

very few people who face the prospect of jail stand up. in fact, it's difficult for me to recall any instance over decades of practice where somebody has stood up and taken it on the chin. >> let me press you for a moment, jay, i understand the point you're raising. but if the facts that he provides to the federal investigators are not negative or incriminating to donald trump, then it doesn't matter whether he's weak or strong, right? >> well, the prosecutor makes a judgment as to whether the person is telling the truth negatively or positively. the idea is to win the affection, if you will, of the prosecutor. and if the prosecutor feels that you're telling the truth, albeit not measuring up to criminal activity on the part of the target, you still have the cooperation of the prosecutor.

>> let me bring in another former federal prosecutor colleague of sorts of yours, john flannery, your reaction? >> my reaction is that you're being a little gentle about what's going on here. it's very suspicious since cohen shared this tape with trump when they were going through the tapes. and since it's not clear that the government has a green light to disclose it, and i don't think they would, there are only two real possibilities of disclosing this tape. one is cohen and the other is trump. and lanny davis is a skilled -- i don't know, a skilled publicist, shall we say. and it feels like danny may have hypothetically been responsible for the cohen tape being revealed to show that cohen has something worthwhile. and rudy giuliani perhaps should have remained silent. basically it is an inculpatory document. it does not exculpate trump.

i would say score one if lanny did this for him, and another blemish on giuliani's jump to explain how exculpatory this document is and how the timing doesn't matter when it is very close to the payoff in august that they're in september talking about maybe how they handle the money. reimbursement. >> you know, giuliani is not -- >> jay, i'll give you the final word briefly. >> giuliani has not been helpful to trump. he keeps a long, exculpatory statement, so he thinks, but then he says that michael cohen can be counted on to tell the truth. that's an exact quote from the statement that he makes. and it's in trump's interest to impute a negative hostility to his testimony with respect to any wrongdoing on the part of trump. and for trump's lawyer to say that he's somebody who could be counted on to tell the truth is

not in trump's interest. and yet that's exactly what he says. that will come back to haunt trump during the investigation and prosecution of any claims. >> i've got to fit in a break because we're going 18 minutes here. i'm waiting on michael avenatti. your calling michael cohen weak is fascinating. coming up, michael avenatti reacts live. and there's a new twist in the russia probe, mueller looking to subpoena the woman known as "the manhattan madam," and she has a very long connection to roger stone. and curtis blow bringing his son for our first ever father/son fallback friday. you're watching a special edition of "the beat" on msnbc.

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it gives you super fast speeds for all your devices, provides the most wifi coverage for your home, and lets you control your network with the xfi app. it's the ultimate wifi experience. xfinity xfi, simple, easy, awesome. recording of trump discussing payments to a former playboy model months before the election has called into question all kinds of accusations that the president has restly denied, including those that are of interest to investigators, both in the mueller side, and in congress. now we are getting closer to what many people remember from watergate, a moment when house aide alexander p. butterfield revealed for the first time to the congress there was a taping

system in the white house. >> mr. butterfield, are you aware of the installation of any listening devices in the oval office of the president? >> i was aware of listening devices, yes, sir. >> i'm joined now by new york congressman, a top democrat on the house judiciary committee. this is an oval office taping system. it's not watergate. but what does it mean to see leaks of these tapes, and is it of interest to congress? >> it may be. put this in the context of what's going on now, the walls are closing in on the president, the mueller investigation has come up with 35 indictments, including very detailed indictments of how the russians hacked into our systems, how they interfered in our elections. the president denies the obvious.

the president sides with the russians. and their denial. against his own intelligence people. he refuses to protect our current elections from an ongoing threat that all these intelligence people say is an ongoing threat from the russians. and yet we see -- and orchestrates a campaign of congress to discredit the investigation so people won't believe the report whenever it comes out. and yet the special counsel, who from whom we hear no leaks, we just see the 35 indictments, the guilty pleas, as is proper, no leaks. >> sure. it's apparently developing a very, very solid case of criminal conspiracy of various people in the trump campaign, maybe including the president with the russians and subverting an american election and subverting our laws. these tapes may be evidence of the president being involved in a criminal conspiracy to hide

evidence of campaign finance violations, or of worse. i think they're flailing out in different directions. because they see the walls closing in. now, will congress be interested in this? quite possibly. >> let me ask you this, if michael cohen ever did things that relate to bob mueller's core portfolio and mandate, collusion issues, do you think this type of news makes it more or less likely from an investigator's perspective that he taped those conversations? >> well, if one is taping conversations with your client, or whether it's proper to call them a client when michael cohen is really a fixer, not a lawyer, but if you're taping conversations with him on one thing, i don't see why it's probably not logical you taped him on a lot of other things. >> take a listen to donny deutsche who has spoken to michael cohen and said something on msnbc that matches what reverend al sharpton who had

breakfast with cohen this morning, michael cohen knows a lot of people and he keeps telling everyone things making it seem like he's getting ready to cooperate. >> i believe at the end of the day michael cohen is going to do, i've said this before, what you would do, what i would do, to do what's best for him and his family. i think whatever comes out involving michael will have to do with what -- with some stormy daniels things, possibly, perhaps there will be missing links to solve the problem with russia. >> are we seeing a kind of a rollout that lands with him testifying before bob mueller or before the sdny, and if so, do you find a way to get him in front of the congress if demes retake the house in the midterms? >> i suspect we are seeing that unless we're seeing the final begging for a pardon before the president with his testifying to mueller in the absence of that pardon. as to whether we ask for testimony, i think we would wait

until the criminal investigation is over. we wouldn't want to -- well, i don't know, we would be careful not to interfere with the ongoing criminal investigation. >> you would hold your fire? >> i'm not sure. we would either do it in such a way as to not interfere, or if we couldn't figure that out, we wouldn't ask for those tapes. but again, because this investigation is very important, we have to find out who was involved in conspiracy with the russians to undermine our elections, which is the basic crime here, and again you just saw the president siding with the russians against our own intelligence people, his own intelligence appointees in order to cover up a plot to subvert our elections, and an ongoing plot. we can't trust the president to safeguard the interests of the country, the special prosecutor, and hopefully democratic congress will have to do it. certainly the republicans in congress are aiding and abetting in a coverup, and maybe even aiding and abetting in an ongoing obstruction of justice.

>> we heard some of the view from investigative reporters and jay goldberg, the president's former lawyer, before, and now we're hearing from you as a democrat in congress. i appreciate you coming on. up next, what would michael avenatti think about all this? does it match his prediction. i'll ask him in 30 seconds. i'm back with michael avenatti, attorney for stormy daniels. you made this prediction. you were proven right. how did you know it then that

there was a tape, and what does it mean tonight? >> well, good evening, ari. you know, there's not just one tape, there's multiple tapes. and, you know, i think ultimately when all of these tapes come out, it's going to be very problematic for michael cohen and the president. you know, i called for their release back in late may. we're calling for the release now. i agree with one of your guests in the assessment that this clearly came from michael cohen's camp. and i think it's the last flare gun, if you will, in a long list of flare guns, shots, if you will, aimed at getting donald trump's attention and telling him that the shoe is about to drop unless he brings michael cohen into the tent to mix metaphors. >> that makes sense. we've definitely seen that interpretation. the other theory that i'll ask you about is that donald trump had, perhaps, the worst week of his presidency given the credible accusations that impugn the rather bizarre display in

helsinki as well as the ensuing things that he said, unsaid and resaid about vladimir putin, and that this is some kind of massive distraction, or is coming out from the giuliani side. your response to that theory. >> i just don't buy it. i don't think it's accurate. i think, look, ari, there's a series of tapes. there's more than one tape. that's why i called for the release back in late may of the tapes, plural, and not tape singular. and, you know, again, i mean, the clock is running out on mr. trump. and i think this is going to be very, very problematic. i mean, this is the one guy, michael cohen is the one guy who has more information on potential misdeeds of the president than anyone else, well with the exception, perhaps, of vladimir putin. >> a big statement there, but not one that is different from what some former intelligence officials suggested in various ways. let me play for you jay goldberg who represented donald trump before michael cohen, but they

had a very similar role, speaking just moments ago on "the beat," and calling cohen weak. >> if you spend five minutes with michael cohen, you know that he's not strong. he's weak. and it's odd to say this, but when he said that he would stand up for the president, i knew from talking with him for less than five minutes that he was sufficiently weak, that he would cave in with respect to any wrongdoing. >> do you agree with that assessment? do you know why goldberg is saying that on television? >> i agree 100%. michael cohen is not a general. he's never been a general. he's a corporate. a corporal, ari. you know, this was not a guy that was calling the shots. this just goes to show you, what i've been saying a long time, i mean, michael cohen was not smart enough or tough enough to serve in the role that he was placed in by donald trump. and eventually donald trump is going to pay the price for that.

and this is another example, ari, of the lack of judgment by donald trump and the people that he surrounds himself with. >> michael cohen, retaining lanny davis in this role, a long-time clinton aide and a former white house counsel, something we reported, something you tracked, something that seemed significant, lanny davis is a huge critic of trump because he says he's a liar who can't be trusted. now he, of course, is working with cohen, which would suggest against trump. take a listen to mr. davis. >> i've never worked for a client that has lied to me or that i could trust not lying to me. that's the reason he can't find a great lawyer. it's because he has lied to the american people. we know that. but he's also lied to his own lawyers. and no lawyer will take a client who lies. >> are we seeing this new lanny davis chapter on behalf of cohen this week? is that why this stuff is leaking? and what do you think is holding them back from moving forward and trying to get a cooperation

agreement and getting it done if that's the goal? >> well, i think a lot of things may be happening behind the scenes here, ari, that aren't necessarily public or have not been disclosed yet. but you've seen a progression. you had me on last week and i talked about the progression. it was either on your show or on your podcast where, you know, we've seen a drum beat now from lanny davis relating to an effort to rehabilitate michael cohen and a series of flare gunshots aimed at mr. trump. i will say this, and i have a lot of respect for lanny, i don't agree with lanny or don't believe him when he says he's never had a client lie to him in the history of his law practice. i'd be very surprised if that were the case. this is consistent, what happened today is consistent with what we've seen as it relates to sending a warning message to the president. i think that michael cohen has been placed on an island. i've said this in the past. i think it was a grave mistake by the president, if there was anyone that the president should

have been looking out after, he's clearly looking out after vladimir putin, we know that, right? he's even inviting him to the white house. he should have been inviting michael cohen to the white house a long time ago. >> cohen retaining davis also shows he's looking for a tough lawyer who's willing to take on trump. you are probably known as the number one person in that category. would you ever consider representing michael cohen in any way? and have you ever discussed it with him? >> well, i'm not going to get into discussing what i may or may not have discussed with michael cohen and i'm not going to speculate, i'm not going to say no as it relates to potentially representing michael cohen. >> you would not rule out representing your civil adversary in the other proceeding, you would not rule out trying to represent michael cohen in this matter? >> if he was prepared to do the right thing and come clean and basically turn states evidence i would absolutely consider it in an effort to disclose information and bring the truth to the american people, ari.

>> prior to this television interview is he aware of your willingness to do that? >> i'm not going to answer that question. what i will answer -- >> does that mean it's likely yes? if it were no, you could just say no, you've never discussed it with him? >> you are a very skilled questioner and a very smart lawyer. you know i've always thought about you. i'm not going to answer that question. >> what it seems that you're implying is this is something that's not news to him through this interview, but something that may have been discussed is what i'm getting. >> you can draw your own conclusions, here's what i'm going to say, ari, i recently had occasion in the last few days by sheer happenstance to run into michael cohen at a restaurant i've been going to for 15 years in new york. and by sheer happenstance we happened to be seated about six feet apart from one another. and during that run-in, michael cohen and i actually had a chance to converse. and we had a very -- what i'll describe as a positive meeting. and i came away from that

meeting, i came away from that meeting very encouraged by ultimately how all of this may work out. we're going to see what happens in the coming days. >> you feel encouraged based on your recent face to face with michael cohen, his retaining lanny davis sends a message as a hillary person. do you think, as a hypothetical, retaining you would send an even bigger message to donald trump? >> oh, i think it would send quite the message and i think it would advance the cause of the american people as it relates to finding the truth. 100%. that's why i'm not going to rule it out. >> michael avenatti, you have said many things that have been borne out here. we showed some of them in our reporting. you are a man in demand tonight, you could have been anywhere in the world. i appreciate it. >> flattery will get you nowhere. >> thank you. the manhattan madam, providing sex workers to new york's rich and famous and has a link to roger stone. that's coming up.

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there is more. we've been reporting on michael cohen and his tapes back in the news, which could be a dangerous combination for donald trump on everything from allegations of his contact with women to his own finances to the original russia probe. mueller investigating cohen's purported secret trip to prague during trump's presidential campaign, he's denied it. that relates to the famous dossier. cohen playing a key role in his attempts to build trump tower in moscow, and setting up an alleged back channel regarding ukraine. there's a lot of material for mueller to look at and he's operating on many fronts tonight. now there's this news breaking today, mueller looking to subpoena the so-called manhattan madam kristen davis, you may remember her from the elliott spitzer prostitution scandal. the governor of new york brought down by that in 2008. mueller wants to talk to her because of her links to roger

stone. she told nbc today she doesn't have anything on russian collusion. says this is all out of the blue and also, quote, very upsetting. i'm joined by analyst howard fryman and kim waley. what would mueller be looking for with ms. davis. >> mr. cohen had -- the romanian hacker that formed the basis of the most recent indictments against russian operatives that were attacking our democracy and our electoral system. if she had a close relationship to mr. stone it would make sense he would want to talk to her, to find out what she knows, to confirm or deny the other pieces of information they have, which i'm sure is mountain of. i was also in the white water investigation, a much smaller thing than now, but what happens behind the scenes is very different than what's public. >> howard, you have reported on

roger stone for some time, including on this show. what are you learning tonight? >> well, i texted with roger stone a little while ago, and he sent me a reply in which he described this as harassment. he said, and i can read it if you want. >> sure. >> hold on one second. >> i think we have a version of it if you go ahead and read it. >> he said have you lost your sense of humor? that was his opening to me. kristen davis has been a friend of mine and has worked on and off for me for ten years. she is a brilliant woman who has remade her life. i am the godfather to her son. she is currently in the cosmetology business. she has no knowledge of russian collusion during the 2016 election. i cannot imagine why the special counsel wants to interview her other than for purposes of harassment. now, i followed up by saying harassment of who, you know, you or her or both?

and he said both. i would describe the interest in kirsten davis as a subsqueeze. he can call it harassment, and certainly from his point of view he may view it that way because apparently he is close to her personally. but what the mueller people are looking for are people who know what roger stone knew. and roger has said a variety of things about what he knew about guccifer, what was going on in russia and the campaign, and the mueller people are obviously trying to pin him from the outside in if they can. >> right. i think your reporting, roger's rebuttal, and kim's context all serve to underscore the fact that somebody might be called to questioning is not to infer anything negative about them, in all fairness. and we're seeing these grinding gears in a way that obviously swirls around stone. kim, the other big news that's relatively unusual beyond the cohen tapes was mr. avenatti who has a track record of predicting certain things telling me this

just moments ago. take a look. >> i'm not going to get into discussing what i may or may not have discussed with michael cohen, and i'm not going to speculate, i'm not going to say no as it relates to potentially representing michael cohen. >> you would not rule out representing your civil adversary in the other proceeding, you would not rule out trying to represent michael cohen in this matter? >> if he was prepared to do the right thing and come clean, and basically turn states evidence, i would absolutely consider it. >> kim, that would certainly be unusual and be a rocket at the white house. your reaction? >> well, it would also be a conflict of interest as an attorney. i mean, i think it's interesting somewhat what mr. avenatti is doing with respect to his clients and personal career and national reputation now. the bigger issue is what are the implications for the democratic process? the drain, the trump administration is somewhat circling the drain here on many different levels. the question is going to be how

is this going to turn out? congress is doing nothing. there's real questions as to whether the mueller investigation can produce indictments at the highest levels of office. and the american people are deeply divided here. and i think the message has to be how is this going to resolve in a way that minimizes the trauma on the american populus as well as our democratic system? >> ari? >> yes. >> edward bennett williams said he didn't represent a client, he represented the situation. michael avenatti is the closest thing to representing the situation. what's going on here is that all the people around donald trump who are worried about going to jail may be the situation, and they need coordination. even if michael avenatti ends up not representing michael cohen in any way, i can assure you that the coordination is growing among all the people worried about going to jail.

that is bad news for donald trump. >> we're ringing the alarm on people not loyal to trump as they once were. the situation needs a lawyer, inadvertent jersey shore reference. thanks to both of you. coming up, kurtis blow is here, he's bringing his son for a very special fallback friday. until her laptop crashed this morning. her salon was booked for weeks, having it problems? ask a business advisor how to get on demand tech support for as little as $15 a month. right now, buy one hp ink and get a second at 30% off at office depot officemax

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been quite a week. it is friday, so time for fall back friday. this is our first father/son.

the breaks. he has worked on hits by the fab boys. curtis blow junior his company. rap phone mobile. thank you for doing it. and who needs to fall back? >> well, fall back, i was thinking about this ihop. needs to fall back. this whole changing the name into ihob international house of burgers was a ploy just to get people to complain about it. just for press and media. and to get more exposure for ihop. they recently changed back to ihop. >> so we got played.

>> we got played. so they need to fall back and don't you ever do this again. >> kurtis, who needs to fall back? >> this guy who took this girl out on a date, and stole her car and took another girl on a date. you got to fall back. that's crazy. >> that's not good. i'll do one. i will just tell vladimir putin to fall back. stop messing with the elections as charged and as evidence has said. and stop working over our president. i mean, it's at times disturbing and at times embarrassing. >> right. >> i meant to say wouldn't. >> come on. >> the double negative. we were saying in the show,

saying i wish you would. no one says i wish you wouldn't. and then a day later, i wish you would. not plausible. >> we wanted to do one together like father and son. and what was it? >> a generation gap in hip-hop. old guys talking about the young guys. young guys talking about the old guys. let's be all love. come together, lyrics, mumble rap. one big party. >> fall back on the hate. >> that's beautiful. >> there is a generation gap and i want to show support to all the young rappers coming up doing their thing. the world is yours. do your thing. this thing is an awesome, awesome culture. we have hip-hop, and it is all yours. the future is yours, guys. so go for, man. get the money. >> my man drake, too.

>> drake has become controversial. >> i was talking to peters earlier in the week about the grateful dead. this is a generational thing that happens. because my father and i had ra long running debate. saying this hip-hop doesn't feel like music in the '70s. >> everyone has those stories where grandma or mom in the background, turn that music down. but the only way we are going to bridge this gap is through love. each party, each section, all of my peers, all of my fellows, show them love. >> you have this in all

generations. you are saying the love has to be mutual. the hat you are wearing says i am hip-hop. that happens to be true. i appreciate you doing this. thank you very much. you can catch kurtis blow mc'ing the nutcracker this fall. and we will be right back. cord of being prescribed for over 10 years. humira works inside the body to target and help block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to symptoms. in clinical trials, most adults taking humira were clear or almost clear and many saw 75% and even 90% clearance in just four months. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal, infections and cancers, including lymphoma have happened as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections,

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flip and michael avenatti telling me he would not rule out representing michael cohen. if he were to get a full written presentation, he might be able to do that without a full legal conflict. that todoes it for us, "hardbal is next. >> another day, another bombshell, let's play "hardball." good evening, i am steve kornacki in for chris mat matthews. we have a new bombshell tonight. michael cohen secretly