week. thank you so very much for being here with us. have a good weekend. good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in washington, d.c. as condemnations pour in from around the world over the brutal murder of a "washington post" columnist and u.s. resident, the american president celebrates the violent assault of a reporter at the hands of greg gianforte. >> greg is smart, and never wrestle him. you understand? never. any guy that can do a body slam, he's my kind of -- >> i had heard that he body slammed a reporter. i said, oh, this is terrible. he's going to lose the election. then i said, well, wait a minute, i know montana pretty well. i think it might help him, and it did. >> wow. and here's how the crew working with fox news anchor brett bare

described the attack on that reporter by gianforte. quote, gianforte grabbed jacobs by the neck with both hands and slammed him sbot ground behind him. he began yelling something to the effect of i'm sick and tired of this. the reporter works for "the guardian" they responded to trump's comments saying to celebrate an attack on a journalist who is simply doing his job is an attack on the first amendment by someone who has taken an oath to defend it. in the aftermath of the murder of jamal khashoggi it runs the risk of inviting other assaults on journalists here and across the world. the white house correspondent's association weighed in saying quote, all americans should recoil from the president's praise for a violent assault on a reporter doing his constitutionally protected job. we should never shrug at the president cheerleading for a violent act.

here to discuss the day's developments, mike schmidt, matt michelle obamaer, former chief spokesman at the justice department, jennifer rubin and former senior adviser to the dnc. there's such fatigue to the all the obliterating of norms and niceties and customs, but there's a tone deafness to this one. this isn't just a story about the obliteration of norms and what presidents normally do when a journalist is murdered abroad. this is about being oblivious to the moment in which his white house finds itself. his white house right now is fielding questions about what our intelligence agencies had collected about the saudi's plan to detain jamal khashoggi, and the president sort of has a shifting story at the moment about his views on all that. >> it is a despicable thing for a president of the united states to say at any time. it is an especially despicable thing for him to say at this time, when it seems that one of our allies has dismembered a

member of the press in a consula consulate, and our president's administration is seeming to help them cover it up or at least is giving them the time and space to cover it up. it also is a hypocritical thing for donald trump to say. he talks about law and order all the time. greg gianforte is a criminal. he lied about it and only admitted it after the fox producer gave her account and after the reporter himself, ben jacobs released the audio tape that showed he was actually beaten up by this congressman. it goes back to something donald trump has done for a long time. you only have to go back to his rallies during the campaign when he was saying to his supporters to beat the hell out of protesters and that he would pay their legal bill is if they did. he has no respect for the free press. he has no respect for anyone who's not a supporter of him. he is hostile to any of these values that are kind of long-held american traditions. >> i went back and looked at

what president obama said and did when james foley was murdered. i went back and looked at george bush's remarks when danny pearl died, and it's instructive whenever we wonder or despair over the fact that we've gone so far from who we were not 50 years ago, but four, eight, ten years ago. let's watch. >> those who would engage in criminal barbaric acts need to know that these crimes only hurt their cause and only deepen the resolve of the united states of america to rid the world of these agents of terror. may god bless daniel pearl. >> the world is shaped by people like jim foley, and the overwhelming majority of humanity who are appalled by those who killed him. the united states of america will continue to do what we must

do to protect our people. we will be vigilant, and we will be relentless. when people harm americans anywhere, we do what's necessary to see that justice is done. >> so just take that and compare it to, i mean, i thought the most riveting thing about trump's performance last night was that he actually acted out the act of body slamming a journalist. >> right. you know, seeing those two presidents it almost makes you cry. it's not a matter of being a democrat. it's not a merit atter of being republican. it is being a person who is charged with protecting the american people, protecting our values, protecting our norms, and here he is encouraging two-bit thuggery not only around the world but here at home, and i think you're right, matt. it's not only a tone deafness, it's just a complete failure of leadership. he does not understand what his role is. i've got to say, i'm a little surprised today i haven't heard more from the democrats. yes, we're in a campaign, yes they want to talk about health care and other things, but where

is the solid voice of condemnation from the democrats. i've learned to expect nothing from the republicans, that's we know, but democrats where are you guys? >> let me add, chuck schumer was on "morning joe" saying there's too much political correctness out there. i'm sure it wasn't in the context of this incident. where are the democrats? >> well, i mean, look, i actually think to your point i am surprised that republicans haven't said more because republicans have been saying for the last month or so they've been calling democrats an angry mob, that we're trying to incite violence, that we've sort of hurt the civility in politics, and now you turn around and you've got the leader of the party saying these types of things and republicans haven't said anything. >> the republicans aren't going to say anything because they've bought this. they're done. and you've got someone here who's one of the strongest voices on everything that's wrong with that. forget about the republicans. they're not going to condemn this conduct. they're in on it. >> i just want to point out,

though, that you can't have it both ways with them where they're now lecturing -- >> we get that. >> the democrats need to stand up. >> i think democrats have been standing up for a range of issues, particularly freedom of the press. they've been calling out donald trump for all of the things he said about basically the media being the enemy of people, enemy of this country. this is not just a -- i hate the fact that this is a democratic problem. this is a problem -- >> we're not calling it a democratic problem. we're acknowledging it's a republican problem. we have breaking news, donald trump was just asked if he regrets anything about those comments. he does not, surprise, surprise. >> as we wait for the results of the investigation, do you regret bringing up last night at your rally the assault on a reporter by a congressman? >> no, no, not at all. different world. that was a different league, a different world, no, he's just a great guy, and he's, you know greg very well, right?

that was a tremendous success last night in montana, and greg is a tremendous person. and he's a tough cookie, and i'll stay with that. >> so you interviewed the president yesterday before he headed to montana for that rally. this is sort of classic trump that we've all become accustomed to. doubling down. >> it's hard not to see this as part of a larger thing he's trying to do. the biggest thorns in his side are the press and mueller. he tries to delegitimize both of them, undermine both of them. if he's going to be successful and he believes that impeachment is a problem, he has to continue to undermine both of them, and that's when he goes soout and ds that. i don't know if it's that calculated, but it plays right into that. he believes public opinion will determine whether he gets into real trouble if the democrats take control. >> i want to ask about your interview. he talked to you about khashoggi, and you guys reported a subtle shift from rogue killers did it to maybe my guy

in saudi arabia's in trouble? >> yeah, but the president not wanting to go any further than that. this is a president who makes -- >> why not? >> he makes snap judgments on a lot of things. he'll say a lot of things very quickly, but similar to how he deals with russia, he's being very calculated here. he doesn't want to go any further than he has to. he's very disciplined about his messaging on this, and that's just something to take note of. >> he usually does that when he thinks he's in trouble. the only time he exercises caution is when he thinks he's in trouble. do you think there are concerns about what jared kushner was talking to mbs about in the early day of this crisis? >> to michael's point about delegitimizing, that's why you have seen this disgusting, despicable campaign to try to call jamal a terrorist or a muslim brotherhood person as if frankly any of you justifies this horrendous act, but secondly to misrepresent his views entirely.

>> let me stay with you, let me read to our viewers a piece from that reporting. conservatives mount a whisper campaign smearing khashoggi in defense of trump. hard lines republicans are mounting a whispering campaign against jamal khashoggi designed to protect president trump from criticism from his handling of the alleged murder by operatives of saudi arabia and support trump's continued aversion to a forceful support to the oil rich desert kingdom highlighting hs z youth and raising questions. >> they said he isn't even a journalist. he was killed for being a journalist. he has been working for journalistic outlets, being chased from his own country for being a journalist. this is sick and depraived. this is how they think. donald trump won't be in as much trouble if we make it a little less trouble that we had this journalist killed and dismembered. that's the kind of mind-set.

i want to say something else as well. there are foreign policy people who should know better, who realize that their foreign policy, the anti-iran foreign policy. people have been very strong on encouraging trump to back out of the jcpoa. these people know their policy is in shambles right now. they are spinning their wheels, just like he is. >> are you talking about john bolton, pompeo? who are you talking about. >> >> all of the above. expecting giving them a free hand in yemen, excepting them to take care of a lot of the iran policy on their own that now they're sort of at a loss. the apple cart has been overturned and it turns out low and behold, transactional foreign policy does not work. this is what happens. they act in ways that are contrary to our values, and the american people won't stand for it. right now they have a total mess on their hands. it is a problem of their own making, and they have got to figure out how they navigate

through this issue but more importantly what they do about a larger middle east policy, which really leaves us with now friends. we've alienated the europeans. good luck trying to figure out a coherent policy on this. >> the stuff that's gone on here is there's a larger implication when the president says it. this is something that the publisher of the times has said in conversations with us. when trump goes out there and does things like this, talks like this about a journalist, if you're a foreign leader, you say, well, if donald trump, the leader of the free world, whatever he -- you know. >> whatever he is. >> whatever, is out saying these things, then why can't i do what i want to do with the press? if the country that has based itself on the first amendment on a free press has their president saying that, why can't i do what i want to? >> he says it so often, watch.

>> the poor guy, you've got to see this guy. i don't know what i said, i don't remember. >> 70%, 75% is absolute dishonest, absolute scum. remember that, scum. >> like this sleazy guy right over here from abc. he's a sleaze in my book. you're a sleaze. >> a few days ago i called the fake news the enemy of the people, and they are. they are the enemy of the people. >> she starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions, and you know, you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever. >> you had many people in that group other than neonazis and white nationalists, okay? and the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. >> these are really, really dishonest people, and they're bad people, and i really think they don't like our country. i really believe that. >> by sleepy eyes chuck todd. he's a sleeping son of a bitch, i'll tell you.

>> are you considering -- >> thank you very much. >> stupid question. >> those were all attacks on the u.s. press. to mike's point, i mean, they see that around the world? >> they see it around the world, and people see it at home too. there is a real effect here, too. there is a darkness that has descended on the republican party. the republican party has been attacking the press for years. trump has accelerated it in a way you couldn't imagine. you see candidates up and down the ballot attacking the press. greg gianforte wouldn't have been reelected right after he body slammed a reporter in a normal time. he was elected because donald trump was delegitimizing. >> a normal president would have disparaged him and the committees in washington would have cut off fubnds to his campaign. >> donald trump has run around telling people that you shouldn't believe the press and the press are fake news. one of the things that's most concerning about long-term effects. you talk about norms that he's shattered. norms change. they move.

he has changed the norms, at least for a certain percentage of the population. when we talk about this isn't normal, there are people, kids who are growing up who think this is normal. >> do you get a sense in talking to him yesterday that his degree of concern around the khashoggi issue, that he sees any connection to this conversation or is he totally detached from the effect of his own words? >> about the way he speaks about the media? >> speaks about journalists and the closeness of saudi arabia. they're not just any ally. they're his closest ally in the region. >> i think he was very impressed by saudi arabia and the way they treated him when he went over there. that really showed him that they cared about him and the relationship with him. >> they flattered him. >> he felt the same way when he went to china. those two things mean a lot to him in those relationships. is there a larger connection to the press here? i don't think so. >> is he offended and is he moving on khashoggi because of the brutality of the murder, or does he think the mbs is just

getting too much bad press? >> i'm not sure. i just think the white house found itself finally in a place yesterday where there was an overwhelming amount of media attention, overwhelming amount of intelligence pointing in one direction, and they realized they had to start to head in that way or it would continue to be a bigger problem for them. >> and to drop the rogue killers. thank you for spending time with us. from body slams and f-bombs, brand new reporting about the fire works inside the white house yesterday between two of the president's closest aides. and being beto. how the texas senate candidate is making america feel great again. and paul manafort now a cooperating witness in the mueller probe, all those stories still coming up. . -fridge, weather. -clear skies and 75. -trash can, turn on the tv. -my pleasure. -ice dispenser, find me a dog sitter. -okay. -and make ice. -pizza delivered. -what's happened to my son?

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so it's not a stretch of the imagination to go from a president who celebrates a body

slamming politician, nbc news is now reporting that white house chief of staff john kelly and the president's national security adviser john bolton exchanged harsh words in and around a meeting about the president's immigration policy. quote, the differences escalated to an angry profanity laced exchange on thursday between john kelly and national security adviser john bolton. as a honduran migrant caravan of roughly 4,000 people approaches the border. the dispute was so heated that kelly ended up storming out of the white house shortly afterward. nbc news is reporting that the altercation arose from a dispute bolton had with kirsten nielsen. nielsen was explaining an 80% rise in immigrants crossing the border when bolton interrupted her. bolton said nielsen, a close kelly ally was doing a terrible job with the border and that her department was not producing needed results.

kelly ultimately stormed out of the white house early with no resolution to the issue saying i'm effing out of here. nbc news national political reporter carol lee joins us on set. just another day in paradise. >> just another argument in the west wing. >> i worked in the west wing, and you know, i'm a big fan of the f-word when appropriate, but i never used it around the oval office. >> john kelly has become kind of known for this. he has a reputation for being a bit of a hot head and has a temper, and you know, he -- >> not ideal in a chief of staff. >> no. and he and john bolton, their relationship has kind of been fraught from the start. if you remember, john kelly did not want john bolton to become national security adviser, and the dynamic is set up so bolton reports directly to the president and circumvents kelly's authority, which kelly finds very frustrating. there's all of that simmering underneath, and there's the closest person to john kelly has

consistently been kirstjen nielsen. he helped install her over at the -- >> his old job at homeland security, and he's very protective of her. she's been under fire from the president, from within her own agency, and you know, to have bolton then go after her for what he felt like, according to our reporting, was her not really doing the one thing that she's supposed to do and the big thing the president cares about when it comes to her department. >> what's interest about the story, and we'll get to the abomination, which was the policy they were fighting over and nobody appears to have been on the side of the humanitarian crisis it is, they were debating not whether to use the military but how to keep these people out. no one was having a fundamental argument over policy from my understanding? >> it was a policy meeting, but it's hard to be -- >> it was a personal attack. >> hard lined than john kelly on

immigration issues. he's in these types of things, so the idea that bolton was somehow more -- it had more to do with his attacks on nielsen according to people we talked to. >> what does it say about kelly's standing? we've been chasing leads that kelly was on his way out, that he was at odds with the family, the jared and ivanka wing of the west wing for many months, but he seems to hang on. where does the support come from? >> i think it's one of those things when you talk to people about this, they'll say from the president's view what's the alternative? if he is already being able to go around him and have direct access to people that he wants to deal with like john bolton, then what's the harm? and you can task him with different things shehere and th. there's been a lot of reporting of our own, other news organizations about whether or not he's going to stay. the white house tried to tamp that down by issuing a statement saying he'll stay until 2020, but no one thinks that's

actually the case. >> not clear he'll stay until monday. what do you make of the fact that it doesn't appear there was a debate over the substance, that -- and i participated in immigration policy meetings, and we landed on comprehensive immigration reform. our closest ideological allies were ted kennedy and john mccain who supported comprehensive immigration reform and the entire republican base had moved away from what george w. bush proposed. what do you make of the policy itself? >> they have no policy. this is not a policy. this is a non-policy. what they tried. >> they tried one. they separated families. >> now they're thinking of reinstituting that winning policy, i say that with great sarcasm, it was factually obviously completely unsuccessful as we see now with another caravan and secondly it was a humanitarian disaster. they do not have a policy. they also do not have diplomacy, which other administrations have

used to work in concert with mexico and central american countries to try to cut this off down below our borders. so they are completely bereft. all they have to do is scream and rant and try to inflict pain on people who are fleeing for their lives. it is an absolute pathetic statement that there is no thinking that is allowed within this bubble now that would say, you know what? maybe we got the wrong policy. maybe we're going about this the wrong way. maybe we have to start dealing with the humanitarian crises in this country. >> that's a good point. the idea there isn't an ideological divide, they're all immigration hard liners is terrifying there is no immigration crisis. this is a crisis that is a political thing they have created. immigration is at historic lows. it's up from 2017, but compared to historic levels it's quite low. it is a humanitarian crisis for these immigrants who are coming, who are fleeing violence, who are fleeing poverty, who are coming at a time when the united

states is basically at full employment and needs other people to come in and help take jobs. it is, you know, it is this thing where i think what you see inside the administration is they don't have a policy to fix this. they're trying to satisfy an irrational president who just wants to see immigration -- >> and irrational supporters. this is the right wing media establishments, big deal. >> this is one of the most important important issues to the president. it's what in his mind connects him to those blue collar voters, the base. >> his base. >> he's been president now for almost two years. >> feels like 32. >> he's got nothing done. kropt him i don't want him to build a wall, but there is no wall money. there hasn't been any sort of comprehensive legislation that's moved through congress. he hasn't done anything. i think he knows that. i think it probably worries him that at some point he's folks

are going to turn around and be hey man, it's been two years. >> did your reporting pick up anything other than this real personal nature of this dispute? is there any consternation behind what doug and matt and jennifer are saying that there isn't any progress on what is most closely associated with trump's brand? >> that's part of the issue. you have a president who everyone knows has been widely reported is very -- when he gets angry, you know, that tension really spreads throughout the west wing, and so his staff reacts to that. one of the people we spoke with told our colleague julia ainsley that trump is prepared to use any option. they're trying to come up with something to satisfy the boss because he hasn't had a lot to show for his biggest promise as a candidate. >> including blame george soros and democrats for literally paying these folks, which is a total conspiracy theory. that's where he is right now. >> conspiracy theories, we know how he feels about those.

after the break, when texas senate candidate beto o'rourke talks people listen. his performance at a town hall last night goes a long way in explaining why. we'll show it to you on the other side of the break. get go! and you want to make sure to aim it. i'm aiming it. ohhhhhhh! i ordered it for everyone. [laughing] (dad vo) we got the biggest subaru to help bring our family together. i'm just resting my eyes. (dad vo) even though we're generations apart. what a day. i just love those kids. (avo) presenting the all-new three-row subaru ascent. wave to grandma, everybody. (avo) love is now bigger than ever. with tripadvisor, finding your perfect hotel at the lowest price... is as easy as dates, deals, done! simply enter your destination and dates... and see all the hotels for your stay! tripadvisor searches over 200 booking sites... to show you the lowest prices... so you can get the best deal on the right hotel for you.

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at the very outset when he began with another lie, i decided i could either spend the rest of the debate responding to every single dishonest thing he said or i could make sure everyone understand what he was doing. i said he's dishonest. it's one of the reasons he got tagged with this nickname, and that nickname resonates because it's true. i got to tell you, it's not something that i feel totally comfortable with, and perhaps in the heat of the moment i took a step too far. >> that was beto o'rourke at a town hall last night talking about whether he regrets resurrecting lying ted at tuesday night's senate debate. now he'll have to deal with the low road again, the president

tweeting this afternoon, quote, beto o'rourke is a total lightweight compared to ted cruz and comes nowhere near representing the values and desires of the people of the great state of texas. he will never be allowed to turn texas into venezuela. listen to how beto o'rourke answered a question about impeaching trump. >> i do think there's enough there for impeachment, and if asked i would vote on it. now, i have not made this the mission of the campaign. i've never called for it at a rally. never sent a campaign e-mail out about this. i'm not on any articles of impeachment for all the reasons i gave you. i'm focused on the future. but yes, i want to answer your question honestly. i think there's enough there to make sure we move forward. >> and with 18 days to go, o'rourke still has a long way to go in the polls. he's down seven points to ted cruz in an average of the polls. good news for o'rourke, today the houston chronicle endorsed him and that's no gimme for the

democrat. the chronicle endorsing o'rourke is a sharp turn away from the paper traditionally endorsing republican candidates. it endorsed mitt romney over barack obama in '08 and george h.w. bush and george w. bush during their presidential campaigns. doug, talk to me about how beto's success as a candidate could instruct the future regardless of how this race turns out. we've covered this race more than any other, and we're not blind to the polls, but there's something about the way he talks. he seems to be one of the few politicians on easter sunday site of the aisle tryi-- on eit aisle trying to answer honestly and with substance. >> when people really took notice of him is when he was asked a question in a town hall by a republican about nfl players kneeling, and he gave a very passionate honest answermeanswer. that sort of spread like wildfire. i think what people appreciate

about him is that he doesn't run away from questions. he doesn't hide. he answers them honestly, and i think compared to a guy like ted cruz, you know, that can be -- that can be encoloneliuraging f voters. he won the" houston chronicle" endorsement. this has always been a tough race. the fact that we're talking about texas, no one thought we'd be talking about texas. no one thought we'd be able to raise money to compete against ted cruz. it's interesting to see donald trump defend ted cruz after the spat they had in 2016. >> matt miller, i want to ask you a question about how you take what beto also seems to be doing is he's not buying the narrative that things are so bleak for democrats. there is this resignation s setting in. they feel defeated. the midterms are 18 days away. they think kavanaugh getting on the supreme court changed the

dynamics. that's probably only a little bit true. there's something that happened, both partisans come home election day new year's. there's something about his optimism, and there's something that reminds me of president obama, george w. bush before he was running nationally. there's something about the it factor he possesses. >> there are a few lessons to learn from his campaign. be yourself, don't be the politician political consultants tell you to be. authenticity is the most important thing. >> that's a progressive guy in texas. >> that's exactly right. the second thing is engage with the grass roots. he spent his campaign going around the state and using social media to talk directly to voters, and the third thing is compete everywhere. you will win some senate races you didn't expect to win. we won a senate race in alabama in a special election where no one would have thought we would have won. he may not win but the grass

roots will pull over democrats over the line. he's going to have energized democrats in a way that are going to pay long-term dividends to the party. >> the way barack obama taught democrats how to talk to the country with his i don't live in red state america or blue state america, the way he taught democrats how to talk about that moment in politics seems to be what beto's doing. he's projecting or leading by example telling people how to talk in this era. your point about being authentic, who he authentically is probably a little out of step with texas? >> that's right. i don't think the majority of voters in texas support impeaching the president. >> give them a little more time. >> maybe. most people would say look, the way you ought to answer that question is let's wait and see what mueller comes up with. the thing he has going for him is he will tell voters, you may not agree with everything i say, but i am who i am. i'm not a phony like ted cruz. i'm going to always tell you the truth about what i believe. >> george w. bush ran for re-election on this message.

you may not -- and he ran against john kerry who said i voted for it before i voted against it about supplemental military f military funding. george w. bush said you may not always agree with me, but you'll always know where i stand. >> exactly. there's sort of a technical thing he does. he is completely fluid. he talks from the diaphragm up. there are so many politicians who either screech. they turn it up way too high because they're faking emotion, or they're way too resideticent brittle. >> where's ted cruz talking from? >> and then there are people who are just unlikable that is the ted cruz problem. you do have to like the candidate. donald trump was the exception to the rule of every election we've ever had. people didn't care because they hated hillary clinton more. i think he's been able to on a personal level convey some sense of passion, some sense of urgency, and in a way where he

says, you know, i'm not going to play those games. don't call me a gun grabber. i'm not going to grab your guns, but here's what i want to do. i'm not for socialized medicine. here's what i want to do. he's not playing in this role. >> it's reminiscent of obama's first inaugural address. thank you so much for spending so much of the hour with us. when we come back, paul manafort took a break from all that time he's been spending with robert mueller to appear in court today. we'll tell you what happened next. here we go.

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i really am grateful to the president for appointing me as ambassador. i learned that the u.n. has 193 member nations, 180 which are mad at us on any given day, and the most important thing i learned is that with all of our differences there is still one thing that unites all 193

countries. at one point every single one of them was paying paul manafort. [ laughter ] >> i don't know whether to laugh or cringe or both. nikki haley poking fun at paul manafort who last month pleaded guilty to eight charges of tax and bank fraud and is currently cooperating with the special counsel. manafort appeared in court today in the eastern district of virginia where a judge said his sentencing date for february 8th of next year. prison has already taken its toll. he arrived at the courthouse in a green jumpsuit visibly grayer in a wheelchair wearing only a left shoe which is due to complications from a diet change. he attended the june 2016 trump tower meeting and was trump's campaign chairman during critical moments such as the dnc e-mail hack and the rnc's platform change on ukrainian policy to a decidedly pro-russia

policy. joining us former federal prosecutor paul butler and john carlin, senior counsel to robert mueller and former assistant attorney general to the doj's national security division. his new book, yt dawn of the code war, america's battle of russia, china, and the riseing global cyber threat." manafort's sentencing, any significance to it being so far out? >> again, mueller is a cold-blooded relentless prosecutor. so basically he -- >> cold-blooded in all the good ways? >> in all the good ways. he made this deal with manafort. he said you're looking at 20 years in prison. you're 70 years old, so your choices are you can die locked up or you can bring me someone's head on a platter, and then cut to these scenes of manafort showing up at mueller's office

six hours a day, nine times. he's punching our clock, so he's got the goods on somebody, and again, it's in his interest to deliver either obstruction of justice because now he is mueller's inside man at that meeting with the russian lawyer or collusion. again, we know when manafort was running trump's campaign he was meeting with this ex-russian intelligence officer and when he was -- when people reached out to the trump campaign and said we have all this dirt, we have all these hacked e-mails, most folks say they would have called the fbi. manafort tried to arrange a meeting, so who else knew about that? did jared know about that? did don junior know about that? did president trump know about that? whatever manafort knows, bob mueller knows now. >> and do you think that the determination to sentence him in february, john, does that

represent wanting some more time with him, wanting him to log some more hours, helping their investigators? >> that's what it looks like. and you often do want more time to make sure he can play out an investigation, see the extent of the cooperation you've received before having someone go face their sentence? >> does that incentivize more and greater cooperation? >> i think so, look, the thing that most incentivizes greater cooperation is the fact he could have had the sentencing reduced more. mueller's team wanted to drag this out and do it at the very end, but the judge in the eastern district of virginia had different ideas as he's had different ideas throughout this trial. >> he's kind of ornery, i think. he never liked this prosecution. he made that clear throughout the trial in ways that were inappropriate. this is movie theater of tre of >> he did make clear they can do the sentencing on february 8th and if the cooperation hasn't concluded they can come back after the fact and reduce his sentence. >> i think it is doj's national security division that announced

that a russian was charged with election meddling. talk about the significance of these charges being filed against russians. we saw the excruciating detail with which bob mueller and his team charged 13 russians, and it seems like we may have underestimated the capacity for the fbi and bob mueller to really get right down to the keyboard in understanding what people did and when? >> i think that's right, and it's kind of amazing that here we are towards the end of your hour, many great topics today, but there's a case today that shows that the russians are spending millions of dollars to undermine not our last election, but the election that's about to come up? >> 19 days away. >> and it's barely catching people's attention, and that's a problem. we're at war. it's a war that's being fought digitally, but it's on our democracy and our country. outstanding work by the prosecutor's agents. >> so from nbc's report the

charges filed friday in the eastern district of virginia accuse eli na of st. petersburg of using social media platforms to create thousands of social media and e-mail accounts appearing to be from u.s. persons to create and amplify divisive social media and political content. >> you look at the details in this are amazing. they go and analyze each of the subgroups in american politics, and then give advice to the members of their conspiracy. you know, here's the time of night that this particular group reads their twitter. that's when you want to send the message. >> conspiracy, they're able to sort of freorensically analyze e conspiracy. >> the take away from me from the charges, when you go back and look at the titindictments t bob mueller announced months ago, that has provided a foundation for other offices inside the justice department. >> is he telling you i've got

other offices that can do the work? >> that can do this work, but also that there will be ongoing investigations into russia's interference. he has shown the justice department how to bring these statements, what the elements of conspiracy are. other offices inside the justice department and the fbi can continue that work-related to trump or not related to trump after he's gone. >> to echo matt's point, he transferred those cases after he indicted them to the national security division and said go keep chasing these russians. that's exactly what they did by bringing this case. >> and seems to be more insurance. robert mueller is one of the smartest people i'm sure that will ever serve his country. this seems to be the durability of the mission of the probe, no? >> including insurance against president trump. to put in my criminal law professor's hat, one reason people are indicted is to deter other people from doing the same kind of conduct. we see robert mueller steady on the case, but you have to wonder when the president is calling

all of this a witch hunt and false news, whether that em boldens the russians to go ahead and do the same thing they did in 2016 in the midterm elections. >> you've got a chapter called fake news in your book. tell us a little bit about the book and about what we still don't understand about the extent of and the ongoing nature of russian meddling in our democracy. >> it links to what we're seeing today. what you'll see is this wasn't one person or a small group, this was a 15-part organization with an accountant paying people for different tasks to influence and attack our democracy. it's not an attack on one pattern party or one person, it's an attack on all of us. we can't face a true enemy of not just democracy but our right to speak, that would be putin's russia. >> putin's russia is something

donald trump has both his arms wrapped around. he stood next to putin in helsinki saying i believe him. >> if you look at the charges unsealed today, one of the most interesting things they showed the russians do were attacking bob mueller regularly, calling bob mueller a tool of the establishment, the exact same lang wanl a language and attacks the president of the united states uses. nikki haley gets the last laugh. that's coming up. as their spokesperson because apparently, i'm highly likable. see, they know it's confusing. i literally have no idea what i'm getting, dennis quaid. that's why they're making it simple, man in cafe. and more affordable. thank you, dennis quaid. you're welcome. that's a prop apple. i'd tell you more, but i only have 30 seconds. so here's a dramatic shot of their tagline so you'll remember it. esurance. it's surprisingly painless. so you'll remember it. i never thought i'd say this but i found bladder leak underwear

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actually, the president called me this morning and gave me some really good advice. he said if i get stuck for laughs, just brag about his accomplishments. [ laughter ] >> it really killed at the u.n., i got to tell you. last year you went with paul ryan, who's a boy scout, and that's fine, but a little boring. so this year he wanted to spice things up again, right? i get it. you wanted an indian woman, but elizabeth warren failed her dna test. actually, when the president found out that i was indian american, he asked me if i was from the same tribe as elizabeth warren. >> that was good, matt miller.

she's good. >> she's good and i think you see there a little bit how she can be -- that last joke was a crack at the president, obviously. >> the last three, he killed at the u.n., talked about my accomplishments. >> she is a real danger to him on the outside. although she worked inside the administration, she never tethered herself or her political career to him. i take her at her word, she's not going to run against him in a primary, but she does seem to be positioning herself to be out there in a strong position in case something happens to him. >> she is sort of the establishment republican's dream, more than a palate cleanser, but someone that would return us to the norms republicans used to stand for, john. >> as you know, i'm never big on politics but it sure would be nice to get to a place where there was a little more humor in our national debate, a little less anger. >> the relationship with law is

robert mueller might have something to do with what nikki haley does in the next presidential cycle, right? and some people say that the whole reason president trump ran for office in the first place had to do with another jokey dinner like that where there were jokes about donald trump made by obama that trump did not take kindly to. >> we know he doesn't have a great sense of humor when he's the butd t of a joke. when we come back, michael cohen with an unexpected message for voters. -here comes the rain.

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you're going to have another two or six years of this craziness. make sure you vote. >> one more, we know that you had meetings with investigators. >> matt miller cynically called that a fund-raising play > my mother called and said "michelle's dead." how is that possible? >> a young mother found brutally murdered. her little girl left to wander in her mother's blood. police had a suspect and they say he had a motive. >> we had an intimate relationship. >> we ended up having sex. >> but could they prove he was the killer? >> it was a circumstantial case. >> except for that witness. the girl who left those footprints. >> we will ner