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tv   Kasie DC  MSNBC  November 19, 2018 1:00am-2:00am PST

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of "dateline" friday. welcome to "kasie dc." i'm kasie hunt. we're live every sunday from 7:00 to 9:00 eastern. tonight there must be decor num the white house. the president works through wholesale changes in his administration. this as the president and special counsel shadow box over the future of the investigation. i'm joined live by senator jeff merkley to talk about ways to protect robert mueller. plus, nancy pelosi is poised to become the next speaker of the house, unless she isn't. democrats feud publicly and privately with 45 days to go until the speaker election.
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and later, andrew gillum, bill nelson and stacey abrams all end their campaigns but not before raising serious questions about the faithfulness of our elections. first, this week, there have been a lot of developments in and around robert mueller's russia investigation. president trump says he has personally prepared and finished written questions written answers to questions from mueller. a source tells nbc news the president's legal team plans to submit them by thanksgiving. meanwhile, charges filed against wikileaks founder julian assange were mistakenly reveals by the u.s. attorney's office in the eastern district of virginia this week. at the same time, alleged russian operative maria butina is negotiating with prosecutors. the department of justice defended acting attorney general matt whitaker as unquestionably authorized to lead the department. and whitaker's comments on the
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russia probe as a private citizen led senator jeff flake to push a bill to protect mueller as special counsel. this as mueller's probe has appeared to expand. the daily beast reporting the special counsel's team is looking into hanna. and conservative author roger stone associate jerome corsey publicly says he expects to be indicted by mueller's team as well for allegedly lying. with all of that, i'd like to welcome in my panel. white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. washington anchor for bbc news, catty kay and msnbc contributor betsy woodruff. in london, presidential historian and author doris kearns goodwin. i want to start with you and your latest reporting on the mueller investigation. this has been a week of basically trying to collect and pull at all these different threads and we've watched the president almost emotionally navigate it in public without a full understanding of what's going on behind the scenes. where do we stand? >> there are a couple different
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baskets we know he's looking into. the saudi arabia -- influence from saudi and united arab emirates. and then the broader traditional donald trump white house basket and there could be lots more we don't know about. the more reporting we do on the mueller investigation, the more me and my colleagues learn and it's a lot bigger, more complicated and a little weirder than we realized. clearly that's something the white house now understands as well. directionally what we know, additionally is that mueller is checking every box available to him. he's not just talking to some of the bigger more dramatic targets, name brand people like roger stone. he's also talked to completely obscure folks you'd never heard of for reasons that are confusing. for example, he talked to a woman who started a parody guccifer 2.0 account. she made it as a joke. this was not a serious thing. despite that, mueller interviewed her.
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there's lots of strange stuff and anyone that tells you may have a good handle on it is probably also trying to sell you a bridge. >> very thorough man, robert mueller. you write for the associated press, the president has expressed concerns behind closed doors that mueller is closing in on his inner circle. including potentially his eldest son. for months, trump has told confidantes he fears that donald trump jr., perhaps inadvertently broke the law by being untruthful with investigators. in the trump tower meet with a kremlin connected lawyer. he's also complained about efforts in the senate by his longtime foe, jeff flake, to introduce legislation to protect the special counsel moup high is the level of concern around donald trump jr. in particular? >> what we saw this week is we have robert mueller publicly go quiet for a period before the midterms. and the president did as well. he rarely tweeted about the special counsel. didn't talk about him as much either. that all came to an end a few
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days after the midterms. >> abruptly. >> with a series of tweets and comments. there's a confluence of things. yes, mueller returned to the headlines even though he has not made any more public moves. we've seen stone and corsey talk themselves they expect to be indicted. we've seen the flake measure. the pushback to the acting attorney general pick matt whitaker and trump being annoyed by that thinking whitaker would be an ally in deal with the mueller probe. and whitaker hasn't been confirmed so the president says, neither has robert mueller. you don't have to be confirmed by the senate. this has been bubbling under the surface for a while. in terms of don junior, in trump world, this is something that has been gnawing at them for a time. since the summer when we first got wind of this. they feel like the president's eldest son could be vulnerable.
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he hasn't been charged with anything, but the president has been telling them that he fears his son may have done something wrong. perhaps accidentally and, in particular, he has seen mueller get closer and closer to his inner circle, whether gates, manafort, flynn. at this point, this could be next, members of his own family. and that has always been a great question, how he would react if that were to happen. would that finally be that red line if mueller were to cross, the president would act to curtail this probe? >> it does seem based on everything we know about thisrit having your own son indicted by a special counsel and face going to jail or other massive repercussions. you know, if these behind the scenes things cause the tweets and behavior we're already seeing, something along those lines could send us places we've not been yet. >> there seems to be a culmination of things. there was losing the house in the midterms. it wasn't the great victory he thought it was. the trip to paris.
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we've seen roy blount saying he'd make a good acting attorney general. he's not getting a lot of republican support on that either. if the mueller probe is closing in on him and particularly on his family, i have been speaking to democrats and republicans over the last couple of weeks who said if don junior is invited, all hell breaks loose in washington. this is on a scale that would be hard to imagine because you'd have to see what does the president do? presumably he'd pardon his son in some way. i find it very hard to see donald trump allowing don junior to go through a process that potentially could lead him to go to jail. >> one important piece of context as we have this don junior conversation is since the inception of the mueller probe it has caused extraordinarily high levels of anxiety in the white house. people have been worried from jump street that there was going to be a blitz of indictments and they were all going to prison. that hasn't yet happened. doesn't mean it's not going to happen, but the fact this paranoia exists and is so acute
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doesn't necessarily indicate anything significant about what mueller is actually working on. >> doris kearns goodwin, thanks for staying up so late london time to be with us. second of all, i'd love to get your perspective on this conversation. is there a historical precedent to speak of for what we're seeing potentially about to unfold here with mueller? >> what i think is happening right now is the combination of the mueller probe being back in the news and the lack of oxygen for president trump not having his rallies and the losses in the midterm is putting a huge strain on his temperament. he said when he was originally running he had the very, very best temperament of anyone who had ever run for president because he had a winning temperament. he never lost. he lost during the midterms. he still takes credit for the victories and no blame for the losses. it's feeding his grandiosity. when he talked to fox today or yesterday and talked about the fact that he was asked about the
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ranking of the presidents and he suddenly says, i have an a-plus. >> let me jump right in there. i'd like to show everybody what you're talking about. >> great. >> it's great and then we'll talk about it. take a look. >> you rank yourself in the pantheon of great presidents. there is lincoln and washington. there's fdr and reagan. do you make the top ten? >> i think i'm doing a great job. i would give myself -- look, i hate to do it, but i will do it. i would give myself an a-plus. is that enough? can i go higher than that? >> doris, do you agree, a-plus? >> well, forgetting what i think right now there was a recent presidential poll where he was rated the worst president in american history. and the james buchanan used to be the worst and then it was said in the newspaper that now he wasn't the worst anymore, the buchanan family was celebrating. but the most important thing about our best presidents is that they have shared credit. they've taken blame. they've grown in office.
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they've learned from their mistakes and we don't see that growth in office. it's hard to imagine he's the very highest a-plus. >> jonathan lemire, i can't imagine him answering that question any other way. >> that's pretty stereotypical donald trump answer. i don't know that he has opinions about james buchanan. the presidents he's trying to compare himself to are andrew jackson and mckinley. this is someone very quick to claim ownership of a victory and wants nothing to do with a defeat. we interviewed him a couple weeks before the midterms and asked him if the republicans lose the house, which, of course, they did, would you accept any responsibility? president george w. bush did. president obama famously said shellacked. and his answer was very simple, no. he wanted nothing to do with it. he reiterated that when chris wallace tried to ask him. he kept interrupting him and saying we won the senate. we kept the senate. in the white house, that was the priority. more of their agenda can get
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done with the senate. they can still get cabinet member replacements confirmed. they need the senate for things like trade and so on. the house is less important and, of course, as long as they kept one of the houses of congress they couldn't face things like impeachment and removal. the senate was key to hold but the president obviously has been in denial about what it means to have lost the house of democrats. >> i was at the rally and he made this comment about, i'm on the ballot. i'm on the ballot. i've done such a great job. >> a vote for so and so is a vote for me. >> he effectively said, if i win it will be thanks to all of these rallies. and if i lose, it's on you and pointed at the crowd. basically it's your fault. the voters' fault for not turning out. the house thing is important. clearly the adam schiff is getting under his skin, hence the misspelled tweet or -- >> was it misspelled? >> i'm not going to say what he said.
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but -- >> s-c-h-i-t-t. i'm not going to say it. >> but i think schiff is getting under his skin and the prospect that there was the russians were laundering money through the trump organization which could get you back to donald trump jr. okay. he may see it as much as he likes to chris wallacer to anybody else. we expanded our margins. of course they're nervous about the house. much more to come tonight. anthony brown stops by. plus we'll talk to jonathan about his travels to california with the president to survey the deadliest wildfire in that state's history. first, will the president hold saudi arabia accountable after the cia concludes jamal khashoggi was brutally murdered at the bebest of their crown prince. "kasie dc" back after this. it was the last song of the night. it felt like my heart was skipping beats.
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ever since president trump came into office, the lines between america's friends and foes on the world stage have become increasingly blurry. dan balls writes, internationally, the president's trip to paris to commemorate the
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100th anniversary of the armistice of world war i brought a reminder of the degree to which he's chosen to stand apart from traditional u.s. allies. he was absent physically at key moments and absent intellectually in providing the leadership that has long come with being the american president. the president's leadership is once again being tested over the murder of journalist jamal khashoggi. on friday, "the washington post" was first to report the cia concluded that saudi crown prince mohammad bin salman ordered the killing. here's the president in that fox interview this morning talking about a recording of the killing that turkey shared with the united states. >> we have the tape. i don't want to hear the tape. no reason for me to hear the tape. >> why don't you want to hear it, sir? >> because it's a suffering tape. it's a terrible tape. >> a month ago, you said you had spoken with saudi crown prince mohammad bin salman and he told you directly he had no knowledge of this. >> that's right.
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that's right. and still does that. >> but we now know some of the people closest to him, some of his closest advisers were part of this. question, did mbs lie to you, sir? >> i don't know. who can really know. you saw we put on very heavy sanctions, massive sanctions on a large group of people from saudi arabia. but at the same time, we do have an ally, and i want to stick with an ally that in many ways has been very good. >> joining our conversation now is msnbc anchor and co-host of "morning joe first look" ayman. did mbs lie to the president in saying he was not involved in this? it seems that our intelligence services have concluded that he was. >> yeah, the bottom line is if we're going to believe what the mia has gathered and what we've seen come out of the turkish government and thankful subsequent reports associated
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with that, it's hard to imagine he was forthcoming and honest with the president of the united states. the short answer is the central intelligence agency, the foreign intelligence agencies of other countries have gathered enough evidence to make it quite apparent. and the way the saudi political regime operates, it is unlikely that so many of these individuals, 17 individuals, some of them who literally served and worked directly with the crown prince would undertake such a risky operation and commit such a heinous crime without the crown prince's knowledge. there's certainly a lot of questions as to whether the crown prince ordered it or whether he knew about it but no doubt from what we've seen so far, he is implicated in it and simply denying it to the president seems somewhat out of the imagination to be honest. >> doris kearns goodwin, what kind of break with the past does this represent on the part of the president of the united states? the u.s. has a long history of
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standing against these kinds of human rights abuses publicly. >> in fact, the more i think about this whole relationship that he's establishing with who are our allies, remember when he first talked about saudi arabia and the -- just mentioned khashoggi wasn't a citizen and meanwhile, the saudis were bringing millions of dollars into the united states, putting money over human rights. but the more i think about his performance when he went to europe and did not go to the cemetery to commemorate the ending of world war i, our allies are our allies because they share our values and norms and traditions. they were with us in world war i, world war ii and the fact he didn't go to join them in that moment and then talked about the rain and fog and the secret service wouldn't let him go but finally said something about how the white house staff, he was furious at, because they didn't warn him what a terrible public relations catastrophe it would be. his instincts should be with those allies. we've been with them, they've been with us.
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it's a really troubling thing. >> katty kay, you were in london this past week. how much did the president's reactions when he was there for the 100th anniversary, is it still reverberating? >> what is reverberating, and you see it in this whole khashoggi thing is the allies feeling donald trump feels more comfortable siding with authoritarians than western democratic leaders. he was prepared to give authoritarians like mohammad bin salman of saudi arabia the benefit of the doubt. well, he told me five times at least that he has nothing to do with it. how many times have we heard the president say, well, president putin told me he had nothing to do with interfering in the american elections. it's the same instinct that's perterbing them when democracy seems to be in retreat around the world, why is he not standing up for it. you hear none of that from this president and that's what's
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concerning allies. >> speaking of that, meanwhile, nbc news learned the white house is looking for ways to remove turkish cleric goulin who has lived in pennsylvania for years. two senior u.s. officials and 24ths briefed on the request say it's being considered as a way to placate turkey over the murder of jamal khashoggi. here's the president responding to that report on saturday. >> we are doing very well with turkey. i get along very, very well with the president. he's a friend of mine. a strong man. a tough man. and he's a smart man. but he's a friend of mine. and whatever we can, do we'll do, but that is something that we're always looking at. but at this point, no. >> erdogan has sought goulin's extradition for years. here's the turkish president speaking to ayman back in 2016. >> this man is a terrorist and extradite him. give him back to us.
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it is going to be -- >> so why haven't they done it? why do you think they haven't done it? >> translator: i'm coming there. i'm getting there. oh, he has a green card. well, i don't care what kind of a card he has. the terrorists, you demanded the extradition of might have been citizens in turkey. and regardless of their nature, if they were terrorists, i would extradite them to you immediately because you are my strategic partner. >> ayman, to you on this. what would this mean? it adds kind tof the same narrative of sort of foregoing our traditional commitments to human rights but also would doing this be enough to playicate turkey in this instance? >> this has definitely been, if not the single most pressing issue for the turkish government, along with a few other issues, including criminal charges brought against somebody very close to president erdogan here in new york and skirting
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the iran sanctions. out of all of the demands that turkey has of the u.s. government, this, by far, is number one. why? because the turkish president believes that goulin is responsible for a series of terrorist attacks inside the country. he believes the attempted coup back in 2016. and so they want him for that precise reason. as you were saying, this is a game changer for turkish/u.s. relations if the united states hands over a person that is residing in the united states, that is a green card holder. and who, at best, the extrajudicial process of bringing him back to turkey has been somewhat rejected by u.s. government officials saying that not enough evidence has been brought forward by the turkish government. and that is something that american presidents have in the past said is that, you know, any process of extradition would require this to go through the american judicial process. and there hasn't been that threshold met yet by the turkish government.
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if the president decides just to hand him over, that would be a game-changer for turkish/u.s. relations and would take it to a different level in making the president very transactional when it comes to how he conducts foreign policy interests over values. >> we certainly have seen that so far. and doris kearns goodwin, before we wrap up here, you've been in london. there is -- i guess from this side of the pond, it's a little surprising but for many of our viewers that haven't been following this, theresa may in a spot of trouble. >> a weird thing to be in a place now where people are worried about their future. they are worried about the next generations. worried about what's going to happen in these next few weeks and we're not talking about trump. we're talking about the people in london. there's a sense of turmoil here that's as large as we're feeling in our country right now because what may happen in these next days with her, with not just the prime minister but with brexit vote. whether there will be a referendum. whether there will be called
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elections. a lot of people feel that will stay really change things for the generations to come. there's lots of feeling over here. it has supplanted the feeling about trump for the last week. we're all talking about brexit. >> wow. that certainly does put it into perspective. doris kearns goodbin, thanks for being on tonight. climate change -- the prlt meets with top democrats in california as they put past fight aside and take stock of the deadliest fire in the state's history. the question, what can be done to slow fires like these as the planet changes. "kasie dc" back after this. my name is jeff sheldon, and i'm the founder of ugmonk. before shipstation it was crazy, like... it's great when you see a hundred orders come in,
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bushes that you could see are totally dry. weeds. and they're raking them. they're on fire. that should have been all raked out and cleaned out. you wouldn't have the fires -- >> what about the argument it's climate change that it's drier. it's hotter. and that's contributing to it. >> maybe it contributes a little bit. the big problem we have is management. >> the president was asked again about climate change after he spent the day surveying the damage in the cities of chico and paradise, california. >> does seeing this devastation at all change your opinion on climate change, mr. president? >> no, no. i have a strong opinion. i want great climate. we're going to have that and we're going to have forests that are very safe. >> and how will he keep our forests safe? trump told reporters he's taking his cues from finland. >> take care of the floors. the floors of the forest. very important. i was with the president of finland, and he said we have -- he called it a forestation. and they spend a lot of time on
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raking and cleaning and doing things and they don't have any problem. and when it is it's a very small problem. >> according to the associated press, the president of finland told a newspaper that he, quote, remembered telling trump we take care of our forests but couldn't recall raking coming up. i shouldn't laugh about this. this is a very serious subject. we have the associated press here to talk to us about it. you orp that trip. and he did seem to take a different tone. he seems to not like the confrontation when he's actually face to face with officials. he didn't criticize the governor or governor-elect but what did you take away from the trip? >> we've seen that time and time again where he's reluctant to go after someone when they're right in front of them. the sheer amount of devastation, particularly in northern california, by paradise, it's hard to comprehend. it's the most devastating disaster he's seen and certainly i have seen and others on that trip felt as well. the houses in malibu that we saw destroyed were also jarring but nothing like what we saw up north.
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you know, he certainly is there -- what you'd expect a from the do, mostly in terms of sounding the right notes and promising the frequently government would be there with resources, putting aside political differences with governor brown and governor-elect newsom. we saw tension though issue of climate change. beyond the clip you just played, our flight between northern and southern california. the three themp came back and i asked governor brown. you believe climate change is a big part of this. he said of course. i asked him, did you bring this up with the president and the president said, no, we didn't talk about it. so certainly that though he seems unwilling to believe or at least acknowledge the change in climate could play a role here. instead starts talking about this forest management idea, including this idea from finland where you have to rake the floors of the forest which seems a nonsensical idea and those california officials say they're already doing what they can to manage these forests to prevent
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these fires. coming up -- from military operation to training exercise. the american military's presence on the border awaits a caravan that has already arrived somewhere else. neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® works in just one week. with the fastest retinol formula available. it's clinically proven to work on fine lines and wrinkles. one week? that definitely works! rapid wrinkle repair®. and for dark spots, rapid tone repair. neutrogena®. see what's possible.
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you see what's happening at the border. for the first time we're getting gang members out, druglords out. we're getting really bad dudes out of this country. and at a rate that nobody has
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ever seen before, and they're the bad ones. and it's a military operation. >> listen to this. no. repeat. no use of military force in immigration operations. none. >> the president was using that as an adjective. it's happening with precision and in a manner in which it's being done very clearly. we've made it clear in the past and secretary kelly reiterated what kind of operation this was. the president was describing what kind of manner in which this was being done. >> the president's then dhs and press secretaries qualifying what he called a military operation at the border early last year. fast forward, some 20 months and now there's a full-scale military operation at the border. more than 5,000 troops were sent there to corral the migrant caravan that's arriving soon at the southern border in tijuana as we speak. secretary mattis visited this week calling the mission the best field training exercise possible.
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nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez has been travel with the caravan and reports from tijuana, mexico. >> mexican police in riot gear have shown up outside the main makeshift tijuana, mexico. about 3,000 so far. some of the local residents here are very upset these migrants have been allowed to come here. this is the demonstration that's happening behind me right now. tijuana's mayor has called this an avalanche and says the city is ill prepared to deal with the influx which he said could last at least six months. of course, president trump has seized on that saying that since his city is ill prepared, these migrants should definitely not be allowed to come into the united states. the president, of course, has decided to deploy nearly 6,000 troops so far. they have fanned out across california, arizona and texas. an estimated cost of $220 million by the end of the year.
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the question right now is how long will these migrants stay here? processing asylum applications could take quite a while. some of these migrants deciding whether to stay here in mexico or continue to try to apply for asylum in the u.s. casey, back to you. >> and joining us on set is democratic congressman anthony brown of maryland. a member of the house armed services committee and an iraq war veteran. sir, thanks so much for being on the show tonight. let's start where gabe left off. as a veteran yourself, what is your view of whether or not this is an appropriate way for our troops to be serving at this point right ahead of thanksgiving? >> i think it's an inappropriate mission for the active duty. i felt strongly earlier this year when the administration ordered the national guard to the border. i introduced an amendment not trying to stop that deployment but simply saying if you're going to send troops to the border, lay out a strategy. tell congress and the american
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people its impact on readiness, the cost, the benefits. now this takes it to another level. it's active duty soldiers who certainly could be deployed in more important places at home and abroad. so i have real concerns with this operation and the fact that it's happening before thanksgiving and the holidays makes it that much more demoralizing and, therefore, an impact on military readiness. >> the president tweeted about this. he called -- he said the mayor of tijuana, mexico, said their city is ill prepared to handle this many migrants. likewise, the u.s. is ill prepared for this invasion and won't stand for it. they are causing crimes and big problems in mexico. go home. i also want to put up this tweet from our producer annie rose ramos. she writes of this woman in the caravan, seven months pregnant worried the u.s. will take her two boys and baby away from her. she is running from crime in her home country, not causing it. this is who president trump says
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is invading our country. and i talk to one democratic candidate in the midterms who said there is no reason for the u.s. to fear this group of people if we are, in fact, the strongest military on earth. >> you're talking about up to 7,000 combat-ready troops who are positioned and poised, facing a caravan of very tired, hungry, demoralized people who are just simply seeking asylum. this is not an opposing force that is presenting a threat to the united states. even to the extent that you believe, and i certainly believe we've got to secure our borders. in this case, it means processing asylum seekers. making sure that we are offering the accommodations that are necessary and important as we process those applications but not a military force if in is -- this is a combat ready migration. >> the president's criticism of some military figures, in this
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case, navy s.e.a.l. bill mccraven, former head of u.s. special operations. this is more from the president's interview with fox's chris wallace. >> bill mccraven, retired admiral, navy s.e.a.l., 37 years, former head of u.s. special operations. >> hillary clinton fan. >> special operations -- >> excuse me, hillary clinton fan. >> who led command of the operations that took down saddam hussein and killed osama bin laden. says your sentiment is the greatest threat to democracy in his lifetime. >> he's a hillary clinton backer. and an obama backer. and, frankly -- >> he was a navy s.e.a.l. >> would be nice if we got osama bin laden a lot sooner than that. wouldn't it have been nice? >> betsy woodruff, why is it that that's the one fact he knows about this man and how are those comments going to be perceived among the military? >> when bill mccraven speak out several months ago criticizing
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the trump administration for one of the host of steps that trump has taken that have deeply disturbed people in the intelligence community it was a really big deal. there t was a big deal to people in the ic and people adjacent to it in large part because he's been nonpolitical in his time in private life after leaving the american armed services. him coming out and criticizing trump made waves specifically because he was not a political hack. because he had not been one of these former members of the intelligence community and military space to put himself out there as a leading political voice. for trump now to talk about bill mccraven like he's a lefty code pink character who thinks trump is destroying america is just amusing distortion of the role that bill mccraven has played in american public life during the trump administration. it's divorced from reality and highlights the fact that trump looks at all of his critics simply as coming from a partisan perspective. he's not able to process the fact that sometimes people who
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aren't particularly politically partisan, people who aren't hacks will have concerns about the decisions he's making as president. >> to be clear, mccraven did not become political until after the election is over, is that correct? so the characterization of him as a hillary backer is completely untrue. got it. okay. i want to quickly put up, we just had this graphic up on the screen. trump disapproval rating among active duty times readers. when the president was elected, he enjoyed quite a bit of support from our service members. in 2016, his disapproval down around 37% but it's ticked up according to the military times to 43%. what do you attribute this to? why are military service members looking at this president and changing their opinions? >> i think when you send soldiers to the south border for dubious mission, that impacts morale and raises the disapproval level.
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when you call for a multimillion-dollar parade in washington, d.c., simply because the french do similar types of parades but it's not a tradition of the united states, we like parades in small towns but not the big parades and most soldiers don't like any parades. they'd rather be training or at home with their families. that demonstrates the president is ready to use the military as its play thing and not support them in the way they want to be supported. >> i have to ask you about an unrelated story but one that's going to be important. that's nancy pelosi. do you believe she'll be the next speaker of the house and would you consider supporting marcia fudge? >> i think nancy pelosi will be the next speaker. the next speaker. when it comes to the house floor it's not a question of which democrat you'll be voting for. at that point it's either the democrat or the republican. i'm supporting nancy pelosi. >> do you think you need a new generation of leadership? >> we need to be developing a
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new generation of leadership. right now nancy pelosi, steny hoyer and jim clyburn, that's the triumvirate that we need to go toe-to-toe with the administration and mitch mcconnell. while i do believe that we have to develop the next echelon, the next generation of leadership, let's not toss out our most experienced leadership today when we're about to go into a very serious battle. >> all right. fair enough. congressman anthony brown, thanks for being on the show. just ahead -- facebook under fire yet again for using a fake news shot to take on their critics. going to talk to "new york times" nick confessore. and catch rachel maddow's special "betrayal -- the plot that won the white house." richard nixon reaching out to a foreign power to win the presidential election. that's tonight at 9:00. my name is jeff sheldon,
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one former employee describes as an in house fake news shop. pushing back against facebook critics in part by linking critics to liberal f george soro congratulations on the story. i read it with great interest and worth noting facebook quickly overnight that night fired definers public affairs in the wake of the story. what in your view is sort of the most telling or important thing you discovered in the course of this and do you think that facebook is actually at this point changing their ways or are they just digging in? >> kasie, this was the work of five reporters over many months. what we found was a pattern where this important and
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powerful and wealthy and profitable company kept makes mistakes covering them up and pushing back on critics and trying to get the heat taken off instead of solving the problem quickly. i think they are doing some things to solve the problems with russian misinformation and fake news and abuse but the real problem is the things that are bad about facebook are very close to the things that are profitable about facebook and good about facebook. the platform's ability to find what you want and serve it to you and excite you and focus you on that thing is the same thing that these other, you know, entities use, the russians use to spread propaganda and fake news. it's a real dilemma for them. >> i want you to describe the meeting between sheryl sandberg, mark zuckerberg and the board of facebook and how sandberg came out of that. she turns around to facebook
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security chief and effectively blames him for having the investigation, not for what trying to find out what was wrong and bring it to light but for having the investigation in the first point. >> it was a real stunning moment and a fascinating example of the leadership of facebook being angry at the wrong thing or exercised about the wrong thing. the security chief for facebook had done an investigation that first was not authorized and became authorized and communicated those details to the committee on the board and told them a few more details than she thought he would, cheryl sandberg thought he would. a lot of people that watched the election unfold, watching the problems with the russian fake news would have said this is a
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big problem and thank you for trying to get it fix. >> hey, two quick questions for you. one is your reporting here, is there any sense to attract congress but what steps will facebook take to prevent this sort of happening again, the idea of it being a platform for fake news going into the 2020 election? >> the first question, i think the story got a lot of attention on the hill and there is a growing consensus that the social media platforms that have become so powerful in politics can't be trusted themselves anymore. they can't regulate themselves. it's time for some rules. the trick is what kinds of rules and what do those look like? it seems farfetched to treat them as utilities for certain responsibilities but it could go down that road. you can see privacy rules that would make the networks lessfect -- less effective for targeting effective for targeting.
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this is the founder that owns over half the stock. he has to decide he wants to do this and prioritize it and create a culture in the company where those problems could get fixed. i think the big problem is it possible to fix these problems and still have facebook be facebook and profitable? >> yeah, excellent questions. nick, stick around for us. jonathan lamarre, thank you-all. stay with msnbc to catch a live
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it's been almost two weeks since election day and president trump is still calling it a tremendous victory for him and the republican party. in california firefighters are making progress against the deadly wildfires but the number of people unaccounted for continues to climb. the cia concludes that the saudi crown prince ordered the killing of jamal kashoggi, but president trump maintains that the crown prince told him he had nothing to do with it. ♪ great being with


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