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tv   MSNBC Live With Katy Tur  MSNBC  January 18, 2019 11:00am-12:00pm PST

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and texts, how do i help and what do i do? thank you america for doing everything you are. >> that's what make america great. who's going to change things? how do we come together? >> you are. >> i will see baack here at 3:00 p.m. eastern. >> i am going to watch you at 3:00 eastern. i am going to sign off and give it to our friend, katy tur. >> look at how positive you are. it makes me really depress about what's going on in washington. >> no way. >> this needs to happen because lawmakers can't come together to figure out how to pass a budget. it is the same thing where you see a little boy having a big sale to raise money for his parent's cancer, oh, it is lovely but it is deeply depressing. >> bad things are always going to happen in any scenario. when you see that people can rise up through something bad, a
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silver lining and do good, tast extraordinary. >> i don't disagree. >> bad things will happen long before the government. >> let me look at my constitution. >> i mean talk about cool. do you want to talk to him at a restaurant? hey, what are you doing? reading the constitution? >> i am so into that. >> good-bye. >> it is friday. >> okay, let's do the news. donald trump is facing the most damming report to date for his presidency. a story that could lead to his impeachment, citing two federal law enforcement sources, buzzfeed news says donald trump directed michael cohen to lie to congress about negotiating to build a trump tower in moscow. and internal company e-mails and
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text messages and cash of other documents before he even asked cohen about it. it could be a really big deal. congressman adam schiff says the president may have perjury. this afternoon rudy giuliani says trump did not do it. he told nbc news that the president counseled cohen to lie is categorically false. michael cohen is a convicted criminal and a liar. one of the writers of that report, one of the reporters told cnn he has no doubts about his sourcing.
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>> i am rock solid. i am an individual who confirmed and verify that it happened. i am telling you that our sourcing goes beyond the two that i was able to put on the record and we were able to gather information from individuals who know that this happened. so today's big question is, if this turns out to be true, how can republicans justify not voting to impeach the president of the united states. joining me, white house correspondent kelly o'donell and our garret hayes and our national intelligence, ken delain.
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>> we talk about so many different possible world of which donald trump faces legal liability, this one frankly would be the clearest. if this happens and donald trump in some way either convinced or help persuade or knowingly lie before congress about these facts. that would be criminal in so many ways. it would be obstruction of justice. it could be possible perjury. there is no wiggle room here. this is not getting into the complicated debate about executive power and what a president can or cannot do. as william barr acknowledged in his hearings that anyone whether you are a president or a senator
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or a businessman, you know a person on the street, a drug dealer, if you participate in conduct like this, you are guilty of obstruction and other crime. it is the clearest example yet of possible legal jeopardy for trump. >> let me ask you this, chris murphy, one of the senators from connecticut has said this is a serious accusation that if mueller has any information to back it up, this is actually true that he should tell congress right now before there is any report that it is too dangerous to let it continue. if robert mueller has this information, what would his calculation be and why would he hold onto this? >> so i think that the reason he would hold onto it is because of the broader more complicated question of why did cohen lie and why did trump participated
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in that lie? what were they covering up? revealing and proving of the lie and trump's participation in the lie, i think would necessary get to this bigger question that we still are getting dribbles and drabs but don't have the full picture of what were they covering up. was there some kind of per quo with respect to the election or the trump tower or the trump tower deal. my guess is in addition to mueller being some one not looking at the politics of this but go ahead and do the investigation until he's done. it is hard to carve off one piece in the way we would like
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him to be able to. >> i would like him to be able to. i don't know if it is possible. >> can cohen's legal team or the spokesperson for cohen's, lenny davis, issued a statement on this story. it was not a denial of the story, the same way they deny that michael cohen went to prague. what do you take from that? what do you think about the president's team rudy giuliani coming out and initially trying to blame cohen's credibility when this reporting is not based on cohen's credibility. >> before i answer you, i want to tell you that i spoke to sources in the senate, they feel a little hamstring. i do think there is going to be increasing demands like chris
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murphy made. if you got evidence and you lied to us, you newe need to know it. it is important that michael cohen and his team have not d y denied the story. they denied other allegations that's been made, for example, the dossier and michael cohen went to prague. he denied this report the other day that he handed cash in a bag to somebody in connection to that online poll story. and as you also mention the white house team and the rudy giuliani's team, it took them 14 hours to issue a clear denial of the story. it seems like hogan giddily on fox news seems to be unprepared and they do not know the facts but unwilling to stick their necks out not knowing the fact and now we have rudy giuliani
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denying this. >> let's listen to some of them. >> if that's true, he should be impeached immediately. >> this is obstruction of justice if these facts are true, there is no question of impeachable offense. that's going to go into the discussion of about whether or not the president should continue. >> well, this information is extremely serious. there is no question about the definition of what is criminal activity. >> democrats have not all been on the same page when it comes to impeachment. some demanded sooner than others. a lot have just said it is not time yet. they have to wait for the full mueller report. if this report turns out to be true, more outlets confirm the reporting. how much closer are we going to see democrats come together on this issue? >> in the structure of all of those comments that you just played is this if then
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statement. members of congress want to see the receipts here, they want to see the proof. they want more than justice reporting from buzzfeed. a lot of members of congress are nervous of anything that comes close to michael cohen because he's someone that's convicted of lying. they want to see additional information here. absolutely. we talk so much about collusion, collusion, it would be an impeachable offense for democrats to pursue if and when they choose to go that route. it is something that a lot of democrats are paying attention to and a lot of caution here. this story had been out since last night, it is one report from one news outlet and it is not confirmed. a lot of folks are trying to not to hold this one too closely
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until we see where it goes. >> william barr, the president's nominee for attorney general was asked about what would cons substitu constitute of obstruction of justice, and in the exchange he had with cloklobachar. >> on page one that a president persuading a person to commit perjury would be obstruction, is that right? >> yes. you also said a president or any person convincing a witness to change testimonies would be an obstruction, is that right? yes. >> on page two, you said the president impairing the evidence would be an obstruction, is that correct? >> yes. >> can the buzzfeed report olt
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in significance of that exchange. >> 100%. i don't think republicans are able to argue if there is convincing proof of evidence beyond and it is hard to argue. it is the kind of thing that drove richard nixon from office. it is separate from the whole russia issue. it is an entirely different thing in the sense that it happens after the election. it is fundamental of our constitution. >> kelly o'donell, it is the ph president's family as well, talking about how cohen has swoop into donald trump's children than this plan. listen to what it is said by about ivanka. >> ivanka instructed cohen to
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speak with the russian athlete to get the moscow project off the ground. another aspect of the deal revealed by buzzfeed, it was later affirmed by the special counsel memo. it talks about don jr. the trump's children have shred this off and they diminished their involvement in it saying this is a michael cohen thing. how is the president responding or what is the word of the white house regarding the broader allegations made here? >> the president did not respond directly to that. we have seen his daughter-in-law who's a spokesperson for the campaign and works for that entity and within the white house, we have seen spokesperson for the president commenting on this and it is all about attacking cohen. one thing you have to remember is playing out differently is
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manafort or other figures who have been swept up in this investigation, anything with the president plays out in a political realm, not the course as we understand it zw and in ts of accepting the premise. the remedy is politics of impeachment. whether it would be an actual trial and where it would be evidence presented when votes will be casted. we are a long way from that. these are very serious allegations and the way the white house and by extension, the family has handled it is to attack cohen. we saw it play out on television, we have that clip if you want to refer to it or we can move onto say we have not seen it. the president has tweeted about a fox news report but not really addressing the under lining issues. there will be opportunities, the president as we often see him in public settings and that'll be
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at the top of our list of questions to try to get some of these fact issues to better understand what happened and why. katy. >> i think we heard them all say multiple times now that cohen is ridiculous and he has no credibility and he's a liar. rogan gidley, another person said that as well. the basis of this report does not come from michael cohen. it comes from two law enforcement from buzzfeed. >> they're not addressing that it comes from documents or e-mai e-mails. >> within the trump organization, not from michael cohen. >> which then raises the question of who within the organization? we know the cfo had been in a limited, i believe in a unity deal or cooperation deal, check me on the facts there.
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the ability of -- >> he knows how all the money move and a privately held family business might have a much more relaxed way of communicating on e-mail without knowledge of the kind of speck to thtor that we dealing with now. >> also, somebody would be dumb enough to write down on paper, the president wants you to lie about this in congress. considering all the scrutiny they have been under, it would be so wild. >> we'll have to see it. >> kelly o'donell at the white house. ken dilanian a, thank you guys
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the first article of impeachment against nixon was just this, obstruction by directing others to lie. this is not hysteria or hyper ventilating, it is history. joining me is jon meacham, author of the book "the soul of america" and along with steve cohen, he found articles of impeachment of donald trump back in 2017. jon, really great to have you. if this turns out to be true, do you think there is any choice that republicans to vote out for impeachment. >> if the evidence is what it appears to be many good conscious, republicans who are following their duty and the
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president impeachment himself which has the virtue of being bipartisan. both president nixon -- well, he resigned first. president clinton was impeached for obstruction of justice for attempting to shape stories or keep facts from congress and from the public. ultimately, you hear an argument a lot from republicans and i am sure you hear it more from i do which impeachment is not the way to go because that would over turn the election. that's a political limitation of what is also constitutional and legal procedure here. if in fact the president of the united states committed what we found in our system to be a high crime or misdemeanor and we have evidence, i don't see how one would argue not proceeding and ultimately not voting for that possibility. >> are you saying even though
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high crimes and misdemeanors have not been laid out in the constitution there had been too modern day congresses who have decided that high crimes and misdemeanors does equal the very least, obstruction. >> absolutely. >> it was the house judiciary committee in 1974. it was the judiciary of the house itself in 1988. they both proceeded on these grounds to impeach presidents for obstruction of justice. i don't see what the argument is. >> congressman, you introduce article of impeachment already against the president. not a lot of your colleagues are so supportive of you in that move last year. what do you see happening among your democratic colleagues the more news like this comes out? we have 17 cosponsors.
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that was considering the pressure that we had to not come out forward, i think was pretty good. i had people coming up to me and ask me to put them back on again. we'll have the opportunity to light some of that issues concerning obstruction and monument violations or who's repressing the free press and tax on the judiciary and bring those facts out. to get a conviction is the most important thing. you need to have republicans and senators across. you got to change the republican base, change their tune. you got to have some things like obstruction as clear and present as we can bring it out in hearings. we need to hear that. >> what happens if the republican base does not care? >> if they don't then trump will continue on and finish his term. that's all he's looking at right now. i think he's given up the idea
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of being reelected. he's hunkered down. >> their campaign keeps on sending e-mails. >> well, they may do it to raise money and spending for trump's hotel. he's hunker down to keeping his base and keep the senate republicans on his team. he foresees impeachment is coming because he knows and mueller knows what he did and that scares the heck out of trump. the worse thing that people expect are probably the least thing that people will realize. this was like the "titanic" coming at the iceberg. i have seen it as i sat in congress, that's why i follow my resolution in 2017. obviously the iceberg is there and trump is the titanic. >> you studied the presidents going back for a long time.
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put in to perspective for us. >> it is unprecedented in a sense that having a president who has explosive been this unconventional, who ought power and has executed in this way that has had no regard for norms who has clearly put himself over vertly above the law. at least only did it on his tapes privately. where i think we are is at a really interesting inflection point, not just for congress but for the people themselves. you ask about the republican base, it is an essential question. one of the questions we have to figure out is in fact, are we loyal to and are we still invested icinves invested in the environment and the constitutional tournament,
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that's not perfect, it is trying to make it more perfect. are we dedicated to that beyond our partisan triable loyalties. it takes a long time for this to happen. i argued this for a long time. joe mccarthy reign in the country for four years. linda, andrew johnson, survived this process. where i think we are, i think people have to look and say and i don't mean to sound sentimental about it, you have to decide is s system more important than the passion of a particular partisan moment. is the system itself durable. is it smomething that we believ in. >> you know you are asking people to look forward and to
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care more of the future then the present moment maybe. as we learn one thing, we are not so good of doing that. look at how we address climate change. >> we are not thinking about the future. >> that's exactly right. >> i would say conservative friends in tennessee. >> the original intent of the american experiment which was a nobel and remarkable and revolutionary insight was that we have to have a chance against passion in the arena. >> passion is the dominant human force. it is what thomas hobbs met talks about a war. >> donald trump believes in perpetual conflict. america were supposed to create a system that we give our better
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angels a chance in this state of nature. >> i think it is a remarkable one. it will be a huge reach. that's what what we are supposed to do. >> jon meacham, steve cohen, thank you as well. we have a little bit of a breaking news from the house. >> this is the breaking news. i am sorry. president trump has met with king young chol from north ko a korea. he had a letter for the president. they are asking for another summit between kim jong-un and donald trump. the white house has now said that there will be a second summit. it is take place near the end of february, denuclearization.
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there is a lot of questions about it. there is not a concrete decision, the north koreans wanted to relief sanctions from the united states, they did not get that. we are in the same place we were minus the missile tests back when donald trump first met with kim jong-un. a second summit, end of february. donald trump and kim jong-un, no meeting place announced yet. no doubt announce yet except top say that it will be at the end of february. we'll follow this. stay with us for more. >> she aresponded to president trump, speaker pelosi point. >> we had report that the president is outing our trip and
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made the scene on the ground much more dangerous because it is just the signal between the bad actors that we are coming. we never give advance nosing going into a battled area which i never do. people should have known that. that's very dangerous. >> it is day 28 of the shutdown. if you are following along at home. if this goes another week, federal worker will miss a second paycheck. nick sherman and our barbara boxer from california and ryan k k
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costelu. >> it only pull the two kids further apart. i am not sure it is possible to move them all the apart since they are not talking even. that's the kind of irony because of what trump said. >> the status o f the negotiations does not look like it is going to change with pelosi in washington. she's in cal boll. the president won't open the government without a wall. they are where they are and i will say vice president and jared kushner were on capitol hill last night talking to mitch mcconnell. as you are looking for good news, mr. mcconnell is somebody that's been involved in many negotiations between parties.
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if you looking for good news, mitch mcconnell ketel marting off to the sideline to the eye line he put himself on is a good sense. >> clearly mitch mcconnolly is the sucre. there is two people responsible for the shutdown at this very moment. not $800,000 of millions. when y it is a disaster, the two people who are responsible is donald trump. he adult not access p-- he got into this jam and he said he
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would be delighted to embrace the shutdown. it is his. then you have mitch mcconnell, i services fed we him for many years, all of aen he's a accomplice sit coward until the president tells us what we want. if mitch mcconnell is getting off the sidelines and you know what it means, avowing a veto to reopen the government the putting off this battle over the best way to do bofddisorderer secured. we are just fine and turns this into chl into sew dulucia. a congressman, i was talking to somebody yesterday and after the trump letter came out, canc
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cancelling pelosi's trip and a melania led a campaign and went to palm beach. during -- they looked at me and say they think we live i in -- >> i think if leader mcconnell is engaging, that's the reason the white house would lay down to some sort of marks. i have seen reward of what taxpayers will fund. more technology and video to trak cars that stayed across the
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border. that sort of specific policy pros cal. >> it may be a medical, not really a concrete doo. i thoep thathope that's the cas. you think there is no movement at all. jake would probably have the most details in terms of if he hears my murmurs going behind closed door. >> i think the person public sitting at home watching your show is saying this is really all kinds of stupid. >> they are. you know automatic ask them who they blame for this? people have a lot of thought on who is at fault. most people think that donald
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trump is at all the -- fault. they don't want us to work with donald trump and especially not on his wall and donald trump will argue hey my base wants me to build the wall, i take exception to that. there are other people that don't care as much of the wall as the president may think and not find it all a i feeling and maybe peeling off as we speak. >> given both sides are so intense, what is he going to take? then it is going to be difficult. >> if we lay this out, we doug in not only the substance which is i need a border wall on the southern border of mexico. he also dug into the money amount so i need a $5 billion op
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t on the border of mexico. congress for many years has voted democrats and republicans for barrier on the border with rex co. they called it many,many things. there is a pack way to a deal, most people know what it is. it is a dhaka. if the two size it can get there? >> i don't know. >> federal workers are missing paycheck. >> for all the businesses surrounding federal government and buildings and people who rely on the work that the government does, ryan cro, thanu everyone for being with me.
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more thdemocrats are callin
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for impeachment. they all want the same thing. answers. joining me jim heyes, congressman, thank you for being here. >> hi katy. what do you think of this report and what do you think you should be doing about it? >> the report is shocking. let's stipulate right up front. it is a report in the media, we don't know what the sources are. there is the two individuals associated with the investigation and a lot of e-mails and documents and other stuff from the trump organization. so stipulating in the news report and not yet evidence. obviously the president telling everyone to lie to congress is very serious but yes potentially impeachable crime. in the article of impeachment both richard nixon and bill
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clinton was what the lawyer is calling subbording perjury and trying to get people to lie in front of congress. >> what can you do to get more information, chris murphy, says that mueller should release this information if he has it on hand. listen to this tweet. if mueller does have multiple sources confirming trump directed cohen to lie in front of congress, we should know this asap. it is about time he shows congress his cards before it is too late for us to act. do you agree with it? >> i agree with the senator. >> it is essential that the mueller investigation and all of its parts are made public including at the front of the line this piece of the mueller investigation. you know we had a lot of talk with the confirmation hearing for mr. barr last week, would the mueller report ever see the light of day? i mean let's face it, this has
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been a wrenching experience for the american republic, quite a part, the president is asking people to lie to congress. to me it is absolutely certain that whatever in that report, the american people need to know what it is and be in a position to judge itself. it has been of the sequence and the timing and the steps he has taken and has been exactly right in their calibration. i am not saying we should push mueller to do something faster but these charges are very serious and at some point the congress and the american people need to know exactly what happened. >> you guys are back in charge of the house. is there ways for the intel committee to subpoena this or an organization employee that you can ask about this? >> of course there is.
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again we are much more likely to wait until special counsel mueller to release that information or report and makes the indictment. there is not a lot of point reinventing the wheel. if congress starts to polk arou poke around in the same area, there could be pile ups and conflicts between those investigations. we have to be careful about that. for my part, i think mueller has been doing this right. let's just make sure the information he has ultimately gets to the congress and to the american people. congress will have to make hard decisions if this buzzfeed report is correct. >> the atlantic in march will have a cover story talking about the case for impeachment just as a forum to debate the fitness
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for office, what it should constitute whether donald trump is fit for office given everything that has happened in all the ways he has behave. do you think there is a place for this sort of hearings to happen right now before anything that mueller comes out or do you believe that this is something that only can come about if the president is found to have -- i don't know, colluded with the russians. >> yes, you have to start with the constitution. if the president committed high crimes and misdemeanors that there will be impeachments. impeachment is a process. this is how the atlantic is thinking about it. ip peachment a that's a public process. the way i would think about it is that if there is credible evidence that the president has
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cross that threshold indicated in the constitution committed high crimes and misdemeanors, i do sacry credible evidence. >> it absolutely does. so then you look at presidents with bill clinton who was impeached and richard nixon who was about to be impeached encouraged people to lie. so again you don't start planning anything on the basis of a news report. if mueller indicates that if the president committed serious crimes, we are going to have a tough time in congress. if there is real evidence that the president committed serious crimes, the constitution would have us do an impeachment proceedings. just because there are
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proceedings or articles of impeachment, does not mean the president will be impeached. this is my personal opinion and as i have been expressing to others, i think there are crimes so serious, we may be talking about murder and child molestation that would cause republicans in congress to do anything other than defend the president. >> you think that's the bar? >> it goes that far out? >> i think i may exaggerate a little bit. >> it is the president himself said i can kill somebody on fifth avenue and my people would stay with me. the idea that republican senators and congressmen saying, well, did he really ask them or what did he really say? there is no doubt in my mind that it would be a heavy lift for a republican congressman and senators even presented with documentary proof of the
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president asking cohen to lie in congress. i think it would be unlikely that most of them would sign up for impeachment proceedings. that by the way is a constitutional crisis. >> that term has beenimpeachmen proceedings. that is a constitutional crisis. >> i wonder when we will get a consensus on that. a broad consensus on that. good to see you, thank you for coming on. >> thank you, cas katie, up nex why is the vice president planning a summit with north korea when they haven't done anything since the first summit. anything since the first summit. you're always itching. but even though you see and feel eczema on your skin, an overly sensitive immune system deep within your skin could be the cause. so help heal your skin from within. with dupixent. dupixent is not a steroid, and it continuously treats your eczema even when you can't see it.
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the white house is planning a second summit with north korea, but as the administration planning a second meeting, mike pence said earlier this week that there has been little progress since the first. >> while the president is promising dialogue with chairman kim, we still await concrete steps by north korea to dismantle the nuclear weapons that threaten our region. >> and joining me now is sumi terry who is currently with the center for strategic and international studies. mike pence just said a moment ago that nothing has changed. why have a second summit.
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>> i think president trump was to showcase north korea. so he wants to get something out of north korea and kim jong-un also has incentive because he thinks he could get a deal with this president. you know, and so -- >> what could he get from him at the end of february, potentially, that he has fot already asked for. what are they going to talk about in nothing has changed. >> they will agree to continue to talk and negotiate. there could be some kind of a deal. i think this is modest progress. but it is disconcerting because in the new years address, there was a long list of demands for the united states. the u.s. has a take a number of sanctions, scrap the exercises with north korea, and the
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territory of south korea. >> and that includes our nukes. >> that's right, our umbrella over south korea. so a long list of demands for us. it will be easy to see if we can make in king of progress. >> this administration is a wild card with this president, but one of the things you just listed would we be willing to k agree to. >> we don't have a peace declaration, we may try to change them a little bit. in return for some action by north korea, it is a declaration of your entire nuclear missile territory. >> donald trump talked about
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they would denuclearize and there was some some video of certain nuclear sites appearing to be destroyed. but i believe our energy commute doubts that the arsenal was being diminished in any way. the president doubted the community in the past. i wonder what he expects will change with this particular leader when nothing changed the first time. >> i don't know if he expects himself -- he did lower the declarations, but he walked back from that saying this would take a long time and so on. but and you're right, the intelligence community leaked reports showing that north korea will continue with their activities and that has not discontinued at all, but he is
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looking to spin this as a foreign policy win. >> it is a success that he is not testing nukes any more. >> you can say it is better. it is better that they're not. but let's have a modest expectation on the second summit. >> thank you for your expertise, we will be right back. your exp, we will be right back. ht to♪ ♪and shakin' me up so ♪that all i really know ♪is here you come again, and here i go, here i go♪ here we come again. applebee's all you can eat is back. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.
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that will wrap things up for
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me this hour, ali velshi is here. >> a busy afternoon as well. i never do what i end up thinking i will do in the afternoon. >> are you back this afternoon? >> i'm not. i'm working on something else. >> all right then, have a great one. >> president trump directed his attorney, michael cohen, to lie to congress about the moscow tower progress. it smarked more calparked more democrats to call for impeachment. they told the special council that the president personally instructed him to lie to congress by giving instructions to end it sooner than they actually did. i want to point o


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