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tv   The 11th Hour With Brian Williams  MSNBC  May 4, 2019 8:00pm-9:00pm PDT

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you like. that's my -- i'm sorry. vote for what you want to be president of the united states. that's what you should do, america. it's a crazy idea. danielle, cornell, and steve, thank you. you can catch us every weeknight right here on msnbc. >> i'm thrilled to be here. there are 548 days until the 2020 presidential election. tonight the big stories of this week and next. did the attorney general give the democrats a play book for the president? we'll talk to the mogul who has been there and done that and the advice he's personally giving cohen. lots to cover. this is saturday night politics. first a little about me. as a 30-year veteran to fortune
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50 companies, a consultant to presidents and former keyword, former friend of po us the, i'm going to spread light and bring in thought and leaders and flunss from outside of politics to break down the questions and challenges heading into 2020. we have a great, great group tonight. and i am so thrilled you guys are here. first my buddy mike barnicle from "morning joe." he's here because -- you are one of the best humans in the planet. it's always great dad, great husband. one of the smartest guys around. you break it down in a way that most people can't. thank you for giving up time and being here. >> it was worth it just for the intro. >> right. >> john pierre, thank you. whenever i'm on a panel with you, i lean in. that's why you're here.
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thank you for joining us. and rick wilson. republican strategist. we've never met before. you wrote "everything trump touches dies". and as a tip of the hat to my former friend, donald trump, we built a wall. yes, a wall. a saturday night politics wall. we'll go through the wall throughout the show as a road map to wrap up the week's stories and let's get to it. low bar. could the ag ease legally challenged -- in 2020. mike? >> he lied to congress. he lied to congress. and everybody else did that. it would be considered a crime. nobody is above the law. >> this attorney general lacks all credibility. >> you seem to be excusing a campaign that literally had hundreds of contacts with a foreign adversary. >> you have betrayed that trust america deserves better.
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you should resign. >> make, scary week. we saw in-house counsel perjuring himself saying the president can end an obstruction. that's aimed at him. a president saying that ag would not deny the president. the president has not instructed him to go after investigations. one of the big conundrums the democrats have had is how do you make mueller, how do you make obstruction? how do you make russia investigations relevant to voters? you can't. yet, do you walk away from it? i think bar might be the first instance where you can tie it together. now it's not about any of these things. it's about law. we have a president operating above the law. and that's something that means something to voters. am i wrong about that? >> no. you also have an attorney general to the united states of america who has forgotten or ignored the oath of office he took to protect and defend the constitution of the united states. he's acting not as the attorney
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general but as the personal up up and lawyer for donald trump. instruct me, i don't know whether it struck anybody else, but 45 years ago this week richard nixon was within four months of resigning from office. it was chaos. and conflict in the house and the senate. and yet, the government functioned and people spoke to each other and both sides of the aisle because they knew the danger, the threat that nixon posed, and that his line and his covering up -- the lying and covering up, the threats those posed to the country. today have an attorney general and half the republican party, maybe all the republican party in the united states congress, house and senate in the tank for this guy. it's almost incomprehensible. >> i'm seeing barr. we know so much doesn't stick to trump. i like using barr as a shield or actually a bad shield for trump that you do not let this guy
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leave from the public consciousness and once again to me it's the walk and chew gum strategy. it's not about investigations. reporters don't care about it, but two systems of law and the dems need to hold onto that. >> it's their constitutional duty and they're expected to do that. there's a reason why democrats in the house were given the majority. they wanted as well just -- the issues that were important, health care and all those things, but they wanted them to be a check and balance on this presidency. so i think they have to. they don't have a choice. they have to told him accountable. i think what nancy pelosi said saying he committed a crime, we know nancy pelosi has been straight laced. even donald trump mentioned how nancy has said she's not going to impeach him. the fact she said that, that william barr committed a crime, he lied to congress, i think that sends a very strong signal. we have to remember william barr didn't just disgrace himself. he disgraced the department of
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justice. he took away the notion from the department of justice is supposed to be an independent arm. that just cannot be. he is now the chief fixer for the president, and that -- you know, democrats have to stand up to that. >> rick, the i word, conventional wisdom, i agree, you can't go after trump. you're not going to get him, and it's going to look like a witch hunt. different math for barr? you're not going to get him. senate is not going to impeach him. what's the play book to not let it go? >> i think as we talked, bill barr went out there and he was clear about it. he's not there to represent the american people justice, the rule of law. he's there to represent donald trump and he's there signaling no matter what donald trump does he's going to give him a free pass. i think two systems of justice is a major feel about one of the reasons people have lost faith in government. they've lost faith in elected officials and in institutions. and in some ways that's in a we got trump category, but they
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don't like it. they don't want to see people getting away with lying and malfeasance, and bill barr has been clear this is -- he's a guy who will apply the color of law and the pretense of being this sort of dull, gray bureaucratic figure to burn everything down. i think there's a great risk factor there. i think you're right. you won't impeach him, be you might as well raise the pain level. he deserves it and it shows there's something in our immune system that's going to fight back. >> my stomach hurt this week. to me it was the biggest attack on a democracy since citizen's united. let's go back to the wall unfresh face. modern american history has taught us the only path to the white house for the democrats is through a fresh new face. is the unfreshest of faces ready to buck history? >> joe biden -- >> biden seems to have a lead. i'd be very happy if it were biden. >> happy why? >> sleepy joe.
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i think i'd do a great -- >> you think he's beatable? >> i just don't think he'd be a very good candidate. we'll see what happens. i wish him well. i'd like him to get it. i'd be happy. >> he's running scared. miky, you feel the fear. question, obviously historically, going back to truman when you were 40 years old when truman was in office. >> oh. man. >> i covered teddy roosevelt. >> you got obviously jfk, obama, clinton, jimmy carter. nobody never has the unfresh face. i think this is different. my tadvertising background, i'm going to call trump a crazy commercial. you have a car client. you do a commercial you go back and show running footage. show a car. comfort food. i think the unfresh face in a weird way works for his favor this time.
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>> for joe? >> yeah. >> well, first of all, it's hideously early in this campaign. i mean, this is not even spring training. forget the exhibition games they have yet to play. it's very early. he's gotten a big bounce on name recognition. i think we agree on that. there's also something going on with joe. if you're out there and talk to the average person, the average person, they feel comfortable with him. >> comfort. >> they feel comfortable about two thinks they know donald trump has difficultly doing. one, the job. the competence level of the presidency. they know it's a tough job. they know biden can do it. and a lot of people think because he's handcuffed in history to barack obama, things are going to be okay. and the other thing that joe has going for him instantly whether it's on tv or when you see him, you like him. he's got likability. now, it's going to play out and there's going to be ups and downs. he's going to have a mountain to
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climb. it's not going to be easy. he's got a lot going for him. >> newest cnn poll says they're all going to beat donald trump. i don't agree with that. elizabeth warren runs against trump tomorrow, trump wins in a landslide. the knock on biden is people like him, but when you dig into regulatory issues with credit cards and anita hill, a lot of unappealing policy stuff, i believe he's going to have some of the teflan trump has had. i think voters want to beat trump so badly. they're going to give him a pass on a lot of left prbrain issues. >> i don't know. he had a great launch. he had a solid launch. we knew he was going to jump in. it was kind of baked in already. so now i think he has a half a century old record. that is going to be something he's going to have to deal with. and then he has to figure out how does he meet the moment? how does joe biden of 2019 meet the moment that we're in?
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that's going to be what's his vision? >> to her point, i think his age works for him. the answer to a lot of the ills of the past is i've grown. i think you're allowed to do that. as a 60-year-old man i do things differently than i did. but that's the answer. and i think the american are very open and welcoming to that once again is that a little bit of a hope and a dream? >> you know, i think there is an affability to joe biden. people like it. and it's hard to look at joe biden and say even though he can be a bit rough around the edges sometimes and sometimes his populism is off kilter. it doesn't seem to come from an evil or negative place with joe biden. a lot of trump's populism has an ugliness. it's i'm going to tear down the swaen and the institutions and because of the brown people coming up from the border. that's what i'm going to do. that's a negatively inflicted
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populism. biden's is uplifting. he may be a dork sometimes, but i think americans are okay with that. >> dictator don. people use names like authoritative don. is it time to try out the d word? this is the guy who, and i believe, and i've known him for 20 years. i believe you look through history, and so many of the worst possibilities of what people have done, trump has shown every single attribute. and it was interesting. our buddy joe scarborough -- i saw the d-word came in casually. he said the dictator's attorney was talking about barr. strategically is it time for action? i can go through a list of 74 attributes this guy has. one of the things about dictators, they tell you what they're going to do. is that an interesting play for the democrats? >> it is. i think if they can draw this arc from nationalism to populism
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to statism to authoritarianism to trumpism, they've got something there. there is something about donald trump that is anathema. his base loves it. it's anathema to the small d democratic republic that we ought to be living in according to constitution. and this idea that i am the state, and that everything is about his ego and his impulses and his things that are the core of trump. that you see much closer than anybody else. i think they're terrifying. and i think there's an opportunity there to frame that out as to say no matter who our candidate is, you may not agree with us on every policy point, but our candidate is fundamentally a believer in the american system. he's not. >> i believe people should be so frightened of donald trump. in every society throughout history it can't happen. what is the simple play book of taking apart a democracy?
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break down separation of powers and get rid of the independent judicial system. guess what. that's what we got here. and now you put that together with a guy that i genuinely think has socio-pathic tendencies, it's frightening. and do we start -- it's not just authoritative tendencies, and is it a smart strategic play for the democrats to say we can't have a guy who wants to be a dictator as president. >> i'll add a fourth, the attacking to the other. and so if you look at the last three years of his administration administration, there's been an uprising. people have said we do not like what you're serving us. they've come out you've seen voices and people saying no to donald trump. i think there's been an energy for it and people are paying attention. you have to remember voters are not stupid here, especially in the last three years when donald trump has been president. another thing when we talk about
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dictator. he loves to dictators. he steps on our allies and embraces -- >> a phone call with putin talking -- >> mike, really quickly before you go, because you have wisdom that comes with your years. this is saturday night. we can get looser. how frightens should people be of donald trump? >> they should be frightened that there's a possibility he will get extended, that he will be reelected and get another four years because one of the things you were talking about with the democrats have to do, it's very difficult in this day and age when the country basically is afflicted with daily amnesia given the pace of events and the way the culture is so accelerated. but if you are a candidate for president of the united states as a democrat, if you can somehow get to the point where you inject a little history into your everyday spiel out there on the stump of what this country means, what it has meant to us
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and has meant to the world, and talk about that, and talk about the damage that's already been done by this president to institutions that have helped americans live prosperously and what might happen with another four years. >> coming up on saturday night politics. kamala harris goes two for two. she seems to have the right stuff to go one on one with trump. don't go anywhere. is that net carbs or total?... eh, not enough fiber... chocolate would be good... snacking should be sweet and simple. the delicious taste of glucerna gives you the sweetness you crave while helping you manage your blood sugar. glucerna. everyday progress discover. hi, what's this social security alert? it's a free alert if we find your social security number on the dark web. good, cuz i'm a little worried about my information getting out. oh, why's that? [bird speaking] my social security number is... 8- 7- 5 dash okay, i see.
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welcome back to saturday night politics. i'm donny deutsche. let's get back to the wall we built for donald. two for two. the senator from california is showing her chops in standout performances. are those the real chops dems need on a debate stage against trump? >> has the president or anyone at the white house ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone? yes or no, please, sir? >> the president or anybody else? >> it seems you'd remember something like that and be able to tell us. >> yeah, but i'm trying to grapple with the word suggest. >> a lot of grappling for the attorney general. mike kavanaugh, she was equally
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laser like and stunning. i keep coming back to the end. i want to see what somebody looks like on stage opposite trump. i see her up there as a tremendous adversary, as a prosecutor with gravitas. i think she's one of the top three as far as i'm concerned. >> kamala harris, you saw a bit of her the other day, never mind being the ag. she was the district attorney in san francisco. she was in court many times in san francisco interrogating killers on the stand. she's not going to have any trouble on a stage with donald trump. he's going to have trouble with her. >> kareem, i'm going to be the dumb guy question. like it or not, women have to deal with being women as a accou candidate. we're still there in 2019. i look at somebody like elizabeth warren and i say tone and matter -- don't shoot the
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messenger. i work for a company run by powerful women. i watch powerful women operate. i see elizabeth warren and a tone and manner, a bernie-like tone and manner that men can get away with, and i still think women not so much. what i think with kamala is a strength, a gav taravitas and ar that in the year 2019 is more easily digestible for men and women. i'm just -- i'm not saying for everyone. and dumb guy perspective. smart come perspective? >> i want to say i think william barr is still on the floor after the knackout punch. it was amazing. i want to say a couple things about kamala. she showed how much of a great questioner she is. the prosecutor in her, when it comes out, it shows the strength. it's stunning, and from even from that video that you saw, we just looked at, there are 3 million views of it already. right now. i think it should put to bed
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that a woman cannot be president or should not be. >> can be president. the question is this unfortunate -- >> but you said it. i think she showed how she can be a fighter. she walks about that a lot in her -- when she talks on the stump and what she's going to do and be a fighter. when you think about donald trump and you think about kamala harris, you can see them on stage. because she can surgically -- >> i would pay for that. >> i think it will be something to see. >> rick, i'm going to bring you in on the next block on the wall. what if the democrats start wrapping the brand with unsavory characters? do voters really want four more years of kellyanne conway, william barr? stev stephen miller, jared kushner? i think strategically there's something interesting. we know with the 30 -some percent, trump is trump.
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he's untouchable. the others are not. start to make it not just the trump brand but trump and the swamp things and you start to really as a democratic message say it's not just four more years of this. it's four more years of stephen miller. corruption is the killer app. >> there are a lot of people in this administration who are -- who have already gone. you can still dredge them back up who were lavishly insanely corrupt. >> and the only few good ones are gone also. >> yes. they're out. and there's enough color and context and stories out there already to give the democrats every road map in the world to use this -- use the investigatory process to go after these things. they need to run these things in parallel and get things running at once so you're bringing up the bad actors and people like stephen miller to congress. even if they fight you on executive privilege, you still make the battle part of it.
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and they look more and more isolated. they look more and more like they're covering things up. which has the advantage of being true. you're able to litigate this culture of corruption around trump and this culture of weirdness as well as corruption around trump. because stephen miller and kushner, they come off in public. they don't look like people that you can trust or like or want to have setting national policy. >> mike, i want to save the next block for you. back to the wall. hillary. did the impossible happen this week? did lindsey graham and his cohorts turn hillary clinton into an empathetic figure? for the first time i felt it got to such theater and absurdity, the american people have a sniff test. in seeing on rachel the other night, there was a gravitas that
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i don't think they have hillary to kick around anymore. >> the hillary appearances lately, if you talk to people in the everyday business of politics have created a kind of interesting things. one is trump's attacks on her, his rallies where they still shout lock her up, have given her a rehabilitation that's been difficult for her to achieve on her own. the second thing it's done internally, i'm told, within the democratic party, is it has resonated and recreated, given a rebirth to the resentment that a lot of democrats still feel toward bernie sanders for not supporting her really in the four years ago. and that's out there. and i think it's going to play a part in the primaries. >> all right. guys, great job. thank you for really on a personal level joining me on my premier show. you did pretty good.
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>> thank you guys after the break i'm going to talk to the candidate whose unicorn resume could be the one to beat trump. mayor pete buttigieg. don't go anywhere. anywhere. ♪ limu emu & doug mmm, exactly! liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. nice! but uh, what's up with your partner? oh! we just spend all day telling everyone how we customize car insurance because no two people are alike, so... limu gets a little confused when he sees another bird that looks exactly like him. ya... he'll figure it out. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ for people 50 and older colat average
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welcome back. my next guest fashions himself as the antitrump democratic contender for president. he's a road scholar. speaks eight languages and was a veteran who served in afghanistan. if elected he would be the youngest president in u.s. history. joining me now is the democratic presidential candidate and mayor of south bend, indiana. mayor pete butte junl. thank you for joining us on the premier episode of "saturday night politics". >> thank you for having me. >> you've had a stunning beginning to your campaign. the press is just nonstop. latest time magazine cover, fantastic cover. you and your husband. now, as a strategist, i might pull you aside after that cover and say mayor pete, that is a very defining attribute you and your husband on the cover.
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you being gay as a defining versus as one of your core attributes. i would say maybe we don't want that to be the defining attribute but a core attribute. would you push back and say wrong strategy? that is, to me, a very, very difficult needle to thread. >> it is something that you think about as you're protecting yourself to a broader public. i try not to overthink who i am. and all the things that make me who i am. my marriage is one of them. my experience in the military is one of them. the fact of coming from the midwest is one of them. my catholic high schooling and my faith and everything inbetween is all a part of who i am. at tend of the day, it's not going to be about me. i think this election needs to not be about the candidates nearly as much as about the voters. while i'm certainly not going to hesitate to introduce myself and where i come from so that people understand how my values are shaped and what i care about, at the end of the day the bulk of
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this campaign has to be about voters, about americans and everyday life and how on things from wages and health care to things like climate and immigration our everyday lives will go differently and better if we have better leadership in the white house. >> let's talk about the people who judge brand. how would you describe it? >> i don't think it's about me. >> but i'm saying for voters who understand who you are in your ideal way, this is who i am. >> well, i guess i have a story of being somebody whose life was shaped by the dynamics around me. i come from one of those communities in the industrial midwest where young people grew up getting a message that success had to mean leaving which is what so many people not just in industrial communities like mine but a lot of rural communities and even some neighborhoods in america's biggest cities have that experience. and that's kind of what i did. when i was 18, i couldn't get out of town fast enough. and yet, in returning and
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eventually serving as mayor of my hometown, i also saw how much matters in what happens in washington. the way that a good leadership or bad leadership in d.c. could make my job serving my community easier or harder. and also in my personal life. i'm somebody who by virtue of whether it's the fact that i was deployed to serve in a foreign conflict on the orders of the president or is fact that i'm from a family that experienced some really challenging medical issues with my parents and financially absolutely depended on medicare as a way to make sure that we could navigate those issues without being bankrupt. or just as somebody who gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night knowing that my marriage, most important thing in my life exists by the grace of a single vote in the u.s. supreme court. i'm somebody who can never forget what's at stake in the decisions made in washington. and i come at them from the perspective of not who looked
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good or got the best zinger in the committee hearing but how this is shaping our lives. >> here's what i love about your brand and why i think you're one of the anti-trumps. your resume and a resume is not a brand. it's attributes, but harvard grad, traditional in an untraditional way, religious, road scholar, you bring out hope in the better angels in all of us. when i read about you, i'm like i'm not doing so good in my life. i can do better. to me, that is the ultimate antithesis to trump who as a human from my vantage point is the polar opposite to me. to me that decency, that core excellence of humanity is what separates you and i think is the essence of your brand that we could aspire to be. not only as a country, but as a person. >> well, i don't mean to put myself forward as an excellent
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specimen, but i agree there's a need or the us to recognize a big part of leadership is just calling forth what's best in us. right now we have leadership that dlaus out the worst in it, draws out the worst in supporters and opponents sometimes. and we need something different. we need a different way. and this is traditionally more of a conservative thing to say, but that moral leadership really matters. character really matters. and i think we need to hold our president to a very high standard. and want to put forward a case that each of us competing for that job ought to be looked at in those terms. >> obviously you were watching trump long before you ran for office. tell me what kind of human being you think he is. to me i think your humanity is your essence, the excellence of it, donald trump as a person, not as a candidate, not as a president, what do you see there? tell me what you see in that human being? >> well, i've never met him and spoken with him. all i have to go off of is the
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way that he conducts himself and the way he approaches this office. but i guess what i see is a lot of self-orientation. >> i want to stay there for a second. i describe the president as a bad man, as in some ways an evil man, a callus man, somebody with little conscience, no come pass. are you too nice? i think we need a candidate that when i ask them is this a decent human being, is there something wrong here? i want the harder punches from you, and why are you holding back? i do know just by looking at your life and how you've lived your lifer, how you must feel about him as a human being. i'm going to give you one more shot to take a tougher punch. >> my emotions about this president are not what's going to matter most. i'm not interested in expressing my anger about him as much as i am in defeating and ending his presidency. if we want to have a debate with him, a fight over any number of
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things from the difference between the way i approach service and the way he did. the fact that i was packing my bags for afghanistan while he was working on season seven of his show, we can have that fight. if someone wants to talk about who has a more traditionally attitude on marriage, we can have that, but it's not about me or him but you, the american voter. and we need to make sure that we're taking it -- because here's the thing about this president. he has the ability to take any attention that comes his way. including attacks and criticism, and just kind of devour it and grow bigger from it. and so we could unintentionally feed the beast by competing to see who is the one who is going to land the biggest punch, the best zinger. the reality is that's an environment, if you just step back and think about the mentality that that represents, that's an environment where it's almost as if he's the one we're trying to impress. >> mayor, you're about to go up against 19 others, and you
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have -- you take a very high ground. it's wonderful. challenging for you now that it does become a zero sum game and you see bernie going after biden. right now if i say your key competitor is joe biden, tell me not just why you're better, why you're better than joe biden. that means you have to punch back at some of the other guys. >> i think at this point with 20 of us, it suits all of us to run our own game plan, because you're kind of competing against the house, but this competition will sharpen, and we will be able to point to the differences and how we view the important questions before us as well as just the differences in where we come from as people. i will say this. i think about 80% of the views of the various candidates on the democratic party are pretty well aligned. you're going to see some differences from the left most and center most candidates. you're going to see some differences in what we choose to emphasize. at the end of the day, while
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there will be some disagreements over substance, the alignment is strong. what's going to matter is what kind of messenger do we want to put forward? can we put forward a messenger can win over -- that september a message that the economy and the government let them down so much that they wanted to burn the house down? tone and messenger is going to matter a lot. i think it's time for something completely, completely different. >> i hear you. mayor, final question. it's a personal question. and i always think we're fooled by some of the early personal interactions. were you ever picked on as a kid? you're going to be up against a bully, and who picked on you and what happened? i'd love to hear what happened and who you have to say? >> i have no shortage of batting practice when it comes to bullies. it's one of the reasons i'm not going to hesitate to get into the arena with some of the most morally challenged people we've
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seen in a long time in politics. one of the things i learned, especially i remember it must have been high school. a kid hit me from behind to get a rise out of me. i turned around and looked him in the eye. i've never seen somebody back off so quick. sometimes when somebody is hitting you like that, it's not because of you. it's because of them. and the strength that is required to see through that, see past that, and get to a better place is very different than the strength or i should say the super official toughness that's not strength associated with just becoming like the person who roughed you up. >> mayor, once again i want to thank you for your service in afghanistan. because to me, as i said, that humbles everything else. you've been running a great campaign. i think you're one of the great hopes. thanks for being on our premier episode. >> thanks for having me on. up next, michael cohen is going to prison. i'm going to talk to another
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friend of mine who has been there and done that and risen to greatness. steve madden will be here next. t everyone's got to listen to mom. when it comes to reducing the sugar in your family's diet, coke, dr pepper and pepsi hear you. we're working together to do just that. bringing you more great tasting beverages with less sugar or no sugar at all. smaller portion sizes, clear calorie labels and reminders to think balance. because we know mom wants what's best. more beverage choices, smaller portions, less sugar. introducing miracle-gro's next big thing: performance organics. this new organic collection of soil and plant food is what you've always wanted. no compromise. twice the results. guaranteed. miracle-gro performance organics. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills?
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tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. eliquis, the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor if eliquis is what's next for you. welcome back. i'm donny deutsche. come monday the president's former attorney michael coroner will report to federal prison to serve a 36 -month sentence. the fact he's going to prison
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mainly on things -- my next guest was at a meeting at my house with michael cohen. he built a multibillion dollar empire. steve spent time in prison for securities violations. he's probably the most stunning example of a man who hit rock bottom and rose to greatness. his story is inspirational and a focus of a netflix documentary. >> at all costs. there are costs. i'm not proud of it. it's really taken its toll on me. i have to say it's changed me. you're like what the hell am i doing this for? what's happening here? so i'm thinking about my life. >> steve, welcome, sir. >> donny, great to be here. >> thank you. as our viewers know, i'm friendly with michael cohen. >> yeah. >> and i got you guys together at my home a couple months ago
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to talk to him about what to expect because obviously he's freaked out as well he should be. and i was so taken with what you did for him and the way you kind of got him to a much calmer place. what did you tell him? >> so, you know, it's not -- you know, what he did is not who he is. he made some mistakes. he's going to pay the price. you know, he has to own what he did. i think that's helpful in his recovery. he did some bad things, and he did some bad things for somebody. and -- but it's not who he is. he needs to -- but he also has to cop to what he did and he can grow from there. >> i was speaking to him today. that's what he said to his daughters. that's not who i am. you walked in. you were telling me your experience. you were at a similar type facility. you flew down with buddys? >> yeah. i went down and -- but once you go, you're in. that's it.
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you know? >> what happens? >> you walk in and then that's it. you're just like everybody else. no one cares. no one cares about what you did on the outside. you're just another number. and it's a heart breaking experience. it's a terrible experience. >> what -- >> for me, when i hear people getting prison time, as onerous as their objections, let's say a manafort, or somebody like that, and everybody is like i can't believe he only got five years. he's a 69-year-old guy. and everybody is very blood thirsty, but prison is a heart breaking awful experience. it's not to say they don't deserve some time or michael doesn't deserve some time. i mean, he -- but -- it's a tough thing. >> you went just like michael is going from this very glamorous big powerful life. what he's been through the last couple years doesn't do justice to the last 20 years. you were running this empire. you go in there. take me to the first night.
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>> it's very scary. i mean, you can't believe where you are, and you're forced to face certain truths, and to try to find your character. you know? it makes me think just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character. >> yeah. >> and that certainly applies here with michael. >> what was your day? >> just -- i was teaching classes there when i got there, and you know, just try to get through the day. exercise. reading. it's heart breaking. because the people you love are on the -- they're not there, and the world is going on and you're -- and you're there. >> you said it's a different world. there are no restaurants or sex, good food or family. you're at a different spot in life. at the end you said when you were released, i was stronger
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mentally, physically, spiritually than i ever had been. you do your mistake. you have your time. you have a little contrite to do your redemption. you were actually stronger or better when you came out. >> well, i made some mistakes. i got involved with my childhood friends. everybody saw the movie "the wolf of wall street" and, you know, i was foolish and i took shortcuts. so i paid the price. i had to acknowledge that. and, you know, it forced me to just be a better guy. >> does he have anything to be frightened of? >> no, i don't think so. i think he's not going to be in a penitentiary, but, you know, he should take the time to look at his life. >> what'd you do first night you were lying in that bed? if he's thinking like you were thinking, you're in that bed.
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>> i looked at the ceiling and said how did i get here? you know, it's going to be tough. it's a tough experience. this thing about club fed and all that, people talk about that stuff, it's just not true. it's a very heart breaking lonely experience, horrible experience. but you know there's guys in there and for me it was helpful to like teach. >> did the three years feel like a year or three years or five years? >> it felt like 300 years. it was 2 1/2 years and it felt like forever. >> if michael cohen's watching and i'm sure at some point he'll see this, i know what you said to him privately at my home, what would you say to him right now? best advice. >> you know mind your own business and try to build your character, try to acknowledge what you did. it's helpful. it's really a helpful process.
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because if you think you didn't do anything wrong, you have no hopes of any sort of recovery, i believe. >> steve, thank you for coming. people don't know you, you are one of the best people around. right now you run this major empire. that's your bravery, that's your courage, and people like you came out and went on to do great things. i really want everybody to watch your documentary. this is just not a promotional thing. it is an incredible story. this is a special man. buy his shoes. you can watch steve madden's documentary. steve, thank you. the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't. (straining) i'll take that. (cheers) 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar. ensure max protein. in two great flavors.
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money is a motive. pride is a motive. love is a motive. >> it's a tale of love turned lethal featuring an adoring wife, a pageant queen. >> she was a whole lot of gorgeous woman. >> and at center stage, a charismatic guitar hero. >> just charming. you know, everybody loved him. >> he was playing us both for quite some time. >> two women, one man. a love triangle with sharp edges. >> jim at one point had told me that he wanted to know what it felt like to kill somebody.


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