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tv   Hardball With Chris Matthews  MSNBC  November 16, 2019 4:00pm-5:00pm PST

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hello, i'm richard lui at msnbc inside new york city. we'll start this hour with our panel of experts to break down 100 pages of testimony of transcripts that we received just hours ago. two key figures in the impeachment inquiry, both were on the call that triggered the impeachment inquiry itself. both will be giving public testimony in just three days. first, there's jennifer williams, the special adviser to vice president mike pence who
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listened in on the president's july 25th phone call, the call. telling investigators that that call was, quote, unusual and inappropriate and it shed light on other possible motivations to hold security assistance. also transcripts just released frod white house adviser tim morrison. he confirms the testimony of ambassador bill taylor telling investigators that the ukrainians were told that military assistance, not just the white house meeting, was conditioned on a public announcement of political investigations that the president wanted. now, that news breaking even as a saturday deposition was just wrapping up. office of management and budget official mark sandy you see there, defying white house orders to testify, speaking with congressional investigators for roughly 5 1/2 hours. the omb is at the center of this investigation, this inquiry that actually held up because it is agency that actually paused and stopped the military aid being
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paid to ukraine. we're going to start with msnbc's garrett haake on capitol hill who's been reporting on this all day. garrett? >> richard, rule number one of washington scandals is to follow the money. that's why democrats wanted mark sandy up here on the hill a top budget official. they hope he can show them something, some piece of evidence that no other witness could. tonight, another crack in the white house impeachment firewall, with career budget official mark sandy defying the white house, spending more than five hours behind closed doors with house investigators. >> we want to know exactly how the president translated his political objective to shake down the ukrainian government for the favors he wanted, translated into the budget process. >> reporter: sandy on the hill to offer insight into the decision to delay military aid to ukraine. aid that included weapons like this, anti-armor systems and mor tars, and u.s. military trainers
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which were eventually delivered but democrats allege the $400 million of military aid was held up by the president who tried to use it as leverage to pressure ukraine to investigate former vice president joe biden and his son, hunter. republicans today digging in in defense of the president. >> you know, that's a thing about facts. they don't change. we have the call transcript, we have the two individuals on the call, president trump, president zelensky, there was no link, pressure, or pushing whatsoever. >> reporter: in public hearings this week, three veteran ghats voicing their concerns about the president's conduct. late friday a fourth diplomat describing a phone call he overheard between president trump and eu ambassador gordon sondland the day after mr. trump's phone call with ukraine's president. state department official david holmes telling investigators he could hear the president's voice through ear piece of the phone asking about the investigation. holmes testified sondland later said the president did not give a blank about ukraine, but only
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cared about the, quote, big stuff, meaning the bidens. >> reporter: richard, if you thought this week was crazy on the impeachment front, consider next week. eight witnesses will testify in public over three days. three of them listened to that phone call back on july 25th. and then there's the aforementioned gordon sondland. he'll testify on wednesday. if the fact that he's already changed his testimony once is any indication, he's expected to be grilled by lawmakers from both parties. >> so much happening, garrett. you don't know whether to look forward, backwards, or straight ahead. let's look at saturday only. what was the outcome of testimony? what's the word on the street there at the capitol? >> reporter: early word is sandy's testimony was very technical. a lot of focus on the budget process, what it takes to move money like that $400 million to ukraine, and what it would have taken to stop it. governments don't just venmo this type of money back and forth. there's a lot of technical work
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that has to be done. the lawmakers wanted to dig into that process to understand what levers essentially the white house used to hold up that aid. >> nbc's garrett haake on capitol hill. thank you so much, garrett, for that report. let's head to the white house now where nbc's mike viqueira has been following today's developments. mike, how has the white house if at all to what has happened today as we get transcripts as well as from the testimony that happened on the hill today? >> reporter: we haven't heard direct reaction to the latest transcripts that have been released, but republicans even before this ukraine scandal broke and even before all the things we've been talking about, even going back before the mueller report, they've always been plagued by this fact that they are not on the same page message wise as the president. just when you think they have a communications plan, the president walks right into it and detonates a bomb. we saw that with the testimony
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of marie yovanovitch yesterday, the ukrainian ambassador that the president recalled on the strength of those rumors in what she termed smears put forward by the back channel of rudy giuliani and the individuals that he was dealing with within the ukraine. the republican defense all along -- we heard from jim jordan in garrett's piece, has been one about process, complaining about the closed-door testimony. now it's moved into public, they're still complaining saying how can there be a quid pro quo bribery, extortion, whatever you want to call it, if military aid in the end was not withheld and there was never an investigation announced by zblenlelensky or a else in ukraine, something that was demanded according to the testimony of administration officials themselves. and then, of course, there's the hearsay argument. that has been sort of blown up itself of the testimony of david holmes yesterday, having overheard according to his account that conversation between the president and gordon sondland. add to all this president trump today sort of playing the
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economic card. he says that if there is an impeachment, the dow, which is at 28,000 now, the highest ever, there will be the biggest fall. it's called the depression and not a recession, says the president. whether that actually happens, of course, is an open question. we can have our own skepticism about that. but that is what the president -- part of what the president has been trying to say. we should be working on other things, the economy is great, hey, don't pay attention to the stuff that democrats are trying to put forward, richard. >> as you look ahead, as we were talking about with garrett here, gordon sondland, you have vindman also who's going to be testifying. but these are two big witnesses, right? >> right. >> when it comes to the white house, how are they preparing, if at all, the idea of war room being banties around, don't have one, they can't say preparation that you're hearing? >> reporter: it's like saying at the outset, there isn't a lot of
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coordination in terms of the message and what coordination there is is sort of whatever the president sees on fox or whatever he's watching and he decides to tweet. that's sort of the direction it goes. it's very ad hoc and seat of the pants. you can see that when the hearings are taking place, the republican from new york trying to interject, trying to provoke adam schiff into admonishing her in public, she being a female lawmaker. you see allies and surrogates outside the white house tweeting about how poorly she's being treated. you know, everybody from steve bannon who's got a war room at the so-called breitbart embassy on capitol hill and other outside groups are trying to, you know, put forward these talking points, put forward these defenses and arguments to defend the president. but it really does have an ad hoc quality to it. and gordon sondland, that is going to be key testimony there. he's at the center of all of this and he has already changed
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his testimony a couple of times. he's amended it. vindman is still serving as the ukraine expert here at the white house on the national security council. >> mike viqueira at the white house joining us. joining us now is jill wine-banks, nick ackerman, former watergate assistant special prosecutor as well. andrew, since we were talking about gordon sondland coming on wednesday, is this going to be the testimony of all tmz so far to date? >> well, i think it's shaping up to be that way, certainly, after david holmes' testimony last night on capitol hill, of course mr. homes is one of bill taylor's aides in kiev. according to his opening statement, he basically
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confirmed bill taylor's testimony from last wednesday, which was that he overheard ambassador sondland and president trump discussing these investigations. they used crude language that was included in that opening statement as well. but in addition to that, gordon sondland during his initial testimony and deposition, did say the words i cannot recall very often. and then he had to amend his testimony before the transcript ended up being released. in that addendum he submitted to the house intelligence committee, he actually told investigators that he communicated directly with a senior ukrainian national security official by the name of andriy yermak and told him that the ukrainians likely wouldn't receive that military aid until and unless the ukrainians publicly committed to those investigations that the president was seeking. that's obviously something that democrats are going to try to draw out at this hearing. mission to getting him to talk about more of the specifics of that conversation that he had with president trump that david
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holmes relayed to investigators last night. >> nick, for gordon sondland, because there's already statements that he's made that are not jiving well with what we're hearing from others who have given testimony so far. does this mean that if you're a democrat setting sitting on the intel committee, you've already got him? >> got him pretty good. he's going to be sitting down with his lawyer this week and his lawyer is going to tell him, you got to get your act together here and tell the truth because otherwise you're going to wind up being charged with obstructing congress and being a radiometric with roger stone. so there is a great incentive now on gordon sondland to come clean and tell the truth. i mean, i think he's at least got some outs here. he said he didn't recall certain things. you can see his recollection has now been refreshed because he's
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heard of this other testimony. he's looked at phone records. i mean, i would love to see gordon sondland's cell phone. >> you and a couple other people. >> right. because that may tell you a lot here. if there's a lot of calls on there at that time, if they are the calls we're talking about, and you've got holmes' testimony, he has really got to do a lot of soul searching this week in determining what exactly he's going to say to the congress next week. >> democrats have not already asked for these phone records, they definitely have done so now based on what happened this week. jill, we're on day 53. what chapter are we in in the impeachment inquiry? >> we're getting close to the end of the beginning. it's been very effective. i see so many parallels to what happened to watergate on your screen you just had, expletive deleted, that was a big thing in the watergate tapes.
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follow the money, of course, was part of the watergate case. but these witnesses are going to have to come clean, and i think nick is correct. sondland doesn't have much left to hide because there are two people left in addition to holmes who may corroborate what holmes said. and so he can't get away with lying anymore. he's going to have to tell everything. if he doesn't want to be indicted for the perjury, because even saying i don't remember, i don't recall does not mean it's not perjury when you're having a conversation like the one that he reportedly had. that's something that you would remember and juries are willing to say if you said i don't remember it, we don't believe you. even that could be perjury. if he wants to get a deal, he better come clean and do it fast. >> if you look at what came out today then, andrew, the hundreds of pages that have been mentioned, again, just several
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hours into this from jennifer williams as well as timothy morrison, both of whom will be testifying as has been said this coming tuesday, what do you think their role will fit as the prosecutors in this case, the democrats there on the intel committee, are pushing for. what is the relevance? >> it underscores the entire national security apparatus, including political appointees at the white house, within vice president pence's office, and within the national security council were all aghast that this ukrainian military aid was put on hold. the white house budget official who testified today, even he as basically the number three official at omb, being a career official, not a political appointee could not himself pinpoint by twhooi aid was put on hold. that is a key blind spot for
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democrats right now because they have not been able to get the politically appointed omb officials in for testimony. these are the people who apparently had actually signed off on the hold that the president had ordered on the military aid and implemented it. there's a lot of budgetary processes as garrett was just talking about that need to be implemented at that point. democrats have not been able to hear that testimony and it's a big blind spot for them heading into this week. >> jill, reflect on that, the money trail that andrew is talking about? >> well, it's very important and i think we can assume that if the continued hold on all the witnesses continues, that the congress can safely assume that it's because it would be incriminating to have their testimony. the president would not be withholding evidence that was helpful to him, and it is a logical thing to conclude it's against their interests. and i think that will perhaps fill the gap. it would be better to have people come forward and be
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honest. starting with someone who's a career employee and someone who knows the procedures, maybe boring as it's described in technical, but that's where you start, and then you go from there. once you understand the process, you know who are the witnesses that you should be asking for. obviously we know that mulvaney would be one of them, and that means the courts have a very important role and must act expeditiously because the decision about whether people can continue to ignore subpoenas, which i believe will be answered they cannot, is important, and it needs to be handled fast. so let's count on the courts to come forward and be significantly honest in this. >> nick ackerman, when you look at the money trail here, the question might be mick mulvaney, acting chief of staff for the president of the united states, he's the head of omb, and what was said today, again, when we learned from what holmes said,
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which we don't know at the moment, follow the page 1 trail. >> i think that's right but a lot of it can be followed just by documentation. there has to be memos that came over. there has to be directives that came over. the whole idea behind this, it's so out of the ordinary in the first instance. this is money that had to go to ukraine. they were being -- in a real war with the russians. they needed this aid. everything we've seen shows that this is the leverage that donald trump was using as part of the his bribery scheme in order to get the ukrainians to do his bidding and open an investigation into the bidens. all he wanted was the ukrainians to announce the investigation so he could use that throughout the campaign. >> all right. thank you so much, andrew december dero, jill wine-banks as well as nick ackerman. great to have all three of you. straight ahead we'll look at the case against donald trump in the words of three people who
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. welcome back. we want to focus now on the case against donald trump made by three dedicated foreign service professionals in more than ten hours of public hearings that happened just this week. we want to bring you some of that. here it is in their own words.
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>> and so even though president trump was saying repeatedly that there is no quid pro quo, ambassador sondland relayed to you that the facts of the matter were that the white house meeting and the security assistance were conditioned on the announcement of these investigations. is that your understanding? >> that's my understanding. >> he described conditions for the security assistance and the white house meeting in those terms, that is, dependent upon, conditioned on pursuing these investigations. >> in your opinion, was this a comprehensive and whole of government effort to end corruption in ukraine? >> referring to the request in july? >> exactly? >> i would not say so, no, sir, judge i don't think president trump was trying to end corruption in ukraine. i think he was trying aim corruption in ukraine at vice president biden and at the 2020
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election. >> ambassador taylor, in your decades of diplomatic service representing the united states around the world, have you ever seen another example of foreign aid conditioned on the personal or political interests of the president of the united states? >> no, mr. goldman, i have not. >> is pressuring ukraine to conduct what i believe you called political investigations a part of u.s. foreign policy to promote the rule of law in ukraine and around the world? >> it is not. >> is it in the national security interests of the united states? >> in my opinion, it does not. >> what did you think when president trump told president zelensky and you read that you were going to go through some things? >> i didn't know what to think. but i was very concerned. >> what were you concerned about? >> she's going to go through some things. it didn't sound good. sounded like a threat.
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>> did you feel threatened? >> i did. >> the member of my staff could hear president trump on the phone asking ambassador sondland about the investigations. mr. sondland told president trump the ukrainians were ready to move forward. following the call with president trump, the member of my staff asked ambassador sondland what president trump thought about ukraine. mr. sondland responded that president trump cares more about the investigations of biden which giuliani was pressing for. >> what this call indicates as other testimony has likewise indicated is that the instructions are coming from the president on down. >> that was the reveal on wednesday, a call that may not have been known about before. that call has now been corroborated by state department aid david holmes, a source with direct knowledge of his closed-door testimony that just happened last night telling nbc news holmes overheard the call,
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clearly remembering, hearing the president ask sondland about whether ukraine was following through on the investigations into the bidens and as well, sondland telling president trump the ukraine president would, quote, do anything you ask him to do. our panel is back with us. andrea desiderio, jill wine-banks also with us, as well as david jolly and chris lu. david jolly, david holmes now at least by testimony from what we're hearing becoming a primary witness, right? hearing a call, saying he understood that was the president of the united states and he's saying they were discussing ukraine and investigations. >> and that really was the news coming out wednesday that we now have somebody who says they heard the president of the united states in his voice speak to the fact that he wanted an investigation of the bidens. i think what the country saw wednesday was the baseline facts
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established that there was this effort by donald trump's team led by giuliani to, in fact, extract this concession from ukraine, an investigation. in ten hours of testimony, that's what we saw. there was a moment with marie yovanovitch saying why were you dismissed. would you have supported investigation into the bidens? no. she said no. it painted a picture of not only on wednesday that there was this effort donald trump was running, but by friday with ambassador yovanovitch there was an effort to remove people who were in his way. and now add on the testimony we had over the weekend that in fact there is a witness to the president's own voice. the facts are there, richard. what we will end up at the end of the day as a country is this is on us. we know the facts now that the president has done this.
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are away country that says that's okay or it's not and the president should be impeached. >> it is related to the very heart of this impeachment inquiry, david. i want to move to you, chris lu. just looking at the calendar, we have sondland on wednesday who's going to be on the hill. and then we move to the day before and we have williams and morrison as well. but gordon sondland now, because of the david holmes revelation, he's going to have some tough questions here. you would not necessarily want to be sondland on wednesday at 9:00 a.m., right, chris? >> ambassador sondland has some explaining to do. in his deposition he didn't recall a lot of details, he didn't give specifics. we now know from every other witness, that sondland really was the point person. he was the person that was giving out the instruction. he was part of three amigos we have from david holmes'. the sondland picking up the phone in a restaurant in kiev
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and getting the president of the united states on the phone and getting instructions from him, which is remarkable from a security perspective. but the fact that anyone can get the president on the cell phone is remarkable as well. so sondland is going to be important. let's not forget tuesday we'll hear from colonel vindman. on thursday we're going to get fiona hill testifying as well. that's an important one because fiona hill was in the meetings that sondland had with ukrainian officials where she left it. actually, john bolton cut short the meeting, told fiona hill to report those conversations to the national security council lawyers, and then fiona hill followed sondland where he continued to make the demands of ukrainians. the whole of this testimony, i think, will continue to fill out this picture, but i think it will then show even more why it's important to hear from people like john bolton, mick mulvaney, pompeo, giuliani whosoever has not been willing to testify despite the fact that they have firsthand knowledge.
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>> jill, when you look at gordon sondland and the ambassador coming up on wednesday, based on the descriptions of him now from morrison saying, well, he was a little off, right? not quite right down the center. is this morrison trying to degrade him, pull away the credibility from what may be revealed when he does come to the microphone to give his case? therefore, how can sondland help democrats and how can he hurt them? >> sondland is a unreliable witness because he has not been truthful. he's already changed his testimony once to make it conform to known facts. now we have at least one other witnesses who has testified in a way that's inconsistent with him, and that's mr. holmes. and so he may have to modify his testimony again. that makes him not your ideal witness. on the other hand, he was a prime player in this, and no one is really -- even morrison has
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admitted that sondland told him that what he said toier mack, the ukrainian representative, was that basically the aid depends on the prosecutor general going in front of a microphone and announcing a burisma investigation. that's bribery. that is a quid pro quo, and we're not using that word anymore. we're saying bribery or extortion so that people understand exactly what it is. but even the best witness that the republicans think they have admits the facts. and people can judge for themselves whether the facts are criminal or not, whether they're impeachable or not. no one is debating that these facts happened. there was a long-term campaign to get the ukrainians to do two things that were of personal political benefit to donald trump, that had nothing to do with our security, and were contrary to our security. i think ambassador yovanovitch
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made it clear that if the cannes didn't fight the russians, we were going to have to, and that meant that we would be in more danger. >> andrew, the words being used by the democrats have evolved. you listened to them firsthand in the hearing room. jill brought up a couple of those, bribery, extortion, not quid pro quo. how is it working? >> they actually introduced the word bribery this week when speaker nancy pelosi said it at a press conference. i remember being there from that and my ears sort of perked up because, of course, bribery is one of the crimes laid out in the constitution itself. and i think democrats after hearing the witness testimony this week and certainly after hearing probably what the witnesses are going to say next week too will start to wrap their arms fully around that word and characterization of it. quid pro quo is obviously probably not the best way to sell something to the american
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people, but there was a third leverage point that was introduced today by jennifer williams' transcript. ms. williams is vice president pence's russia and europe adviser. she suggested that maybe the decision -- president trump's decision to stop vice president pence from attending president zelensky's inauguration in may could have been related to this because at the time the president we know was in contact with rudy giuliani and with ambassador sondland about pressing ukraine to do these politically motivated investigations. of course, the president initially said he wanted vice president pence to go to zelensky's inauguration in kiev in may, and then later pulled back and ms. williams told investigators based on the transcript i just read before coming over here, richard, that she and her staff never got a reason for exactly why that was scrapped and why the president ordered that. so it's potentially a third leverage point that has been introduced into this by democrats. >> andrew desiderio from
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politico, david jolly, chris lu, former assistant to president obama, thank you so much on this saturday. jill wine-banks, we'll talk to you in just a little bit. the release of testimony of two key impeachment witnesses. ♪ limu emu & doug hour 36 in the stakeout. as soon as the homeowners arrive, we'll inform them that liberty mutual customizes home insurance, so they'll only pay for what they need. your turn to keep watch, limu. wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪
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welcome back to msnbc. we're following this hour some breaking news. two deposition readouts just released the only one last couple of hours, and they could have major implications for the impeachment investigation into president trump. now, both of them firsthand accounts of the president's july 25th phone call. the first special adviser to vice president pence, jennifer williams, who listened in on the president's july 25th phone call between president zelensky and president trump, telling investigators that the call was, quote, unusual and inappropriate and it shed light on other possibly motivations behind hold to security assistance to ukraine. then there is white house adviser tim morrison, confirming the testimony of ambassador bill taylor, telling investigators that the ukrainians were told that military assistance, not just the white house meeting, was conditioned on a public announcement of political
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investigations that the president wanted. all of that just out today. more on that just ahead. now to more of the public testimony that happened from the blockbuster week from three key diplomats this week in their own words during their modern ten hours of testimony. the witnesses returned again and again to the strategic importance of ukraine to the united states. while the president's alleged scheme was aimed at helping himself politically potentially, it also stood to benefit someone else, vladimir putin. >> the security assistance we provide is crucial to ukraine's defense. >> it demonstrates to ukrainians and russians that we are ukraine's reliable strategic partner. it is clearly in our national interest to deter further russian aggression. >> if the assistance was cut off, he would have been much weaker in his negotiations with the russians. >> the russians may have taken it as an invitation to actually
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take military action against ukraine, is that right? >> the russians always look for vulnerabilities, and they know that the united states has supported ukraine. >> they could have pounced? >> they could have taken advantage. >> now, how would this theory of ukraine interference in the 2016 election be in vladimir putin's interest? >> well, i mean, president putin must have been aware that there were concerns in the u.s. about russian meddling in the 2016 elections, and what the potential was for russian meddling in the future. so, you know, classic for an intelligence officer to try to throw off the scent and create an alternative narrative that maybe might get picked up and get some credence. >> an alternative narrative that would absolve his own wrongdoing? >> yeah. >> you also described in your opening statement a discussion you had about president trump
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being a businessman who wanted to have people pay up before signing the check. what did you understand that to mean? >> he used that analogy very clearly to indicate that this would be -- this would require something. if that person owed him something, before you sign the check, he wanted to get whatever he's owed paid back to him. >> did ukraine owe anything to the united states? >> mr. goldman, they didn't. >> you would agree that if president zelensky contradicted president trump and said of course i felt pressured, they were holding up $400 million in military assistance, we have people dying every day, if he were to contradict president trump directly, they would be sophisticated enough to know they may pay a heavy price with this president, were they not? >> that's a fair assessment. >> if president zelensky were to
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say i had to capitulate, i was ready to go on cnn until the aid got restored, that would obviously be hurtful to him back home, would it not? >> he cannot afford to be seen to be deferring to any foreign leader. >> msnbc national security analyst and former national security council spokesperson ned price joins us right now to discuss just some of what we saw here as well as the rest of the week. ned, thanks for being with us. in the times that you had to present to the president, you know, those briefs, right? thin and thick, and it was about ukraine, what would that headline be? i think for most americans they were watching what was happening there in the testimony. ukraine is important to america. >> ukraine is important to america, but there is also a
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corollary lesson. it's also a critical deterrent to russia. i think that's the other point that some of the witnesses this week have alluded to. ukraine, of course, is a friend, it's a partner of the united states. we have a vested interest in ukraine's success. of course, our support is a critical element of that. but it's also bigger than ukraine because ukraine is a symptom of russia's expansionism, its newfound aggression under vladimir putin that we've seen especially in "the post" 2014 environment when russia first went into crimea and subsequently into eastern ukraine. so the point is that without american support for ukraine, it would essentially be a green light to vladimir putin, not only for ukraine, but also for countries like georgia and even more dangerous potential nato allies. that's the most dangerous possibility, richard, because as
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a nato member ourselves, we are retreat bou treaty bound to go in and defend military action, to defend other nato allies if they come under threat from vladimir putin's russia. >> so vladimir putin and russia looking for leaks in the dam, if you will. one of those might be here in this case ukraine. describe to us what that is like in terms of the way russia approaches this knowing that you pull the thread on that sweater and it may keep going and ukraine could be one of those openings? >> right. vladimir putin is always pushing to determine just how much resistance there is, whether that is in syria, whether that is in ukraine, whether that is in europe with democratic elections across the atlantic, whether it is here at home as we saw in 2016 with our democratic elections and russia's attack on that process. what putin is always trying to gage is a level of resistance.
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when putin determines that there is no resistance, that there is no price to pay or too little of a price to pay, he will push further. so i think that is the concern here, richard. if putin were to be even more aggressive, vis-a-vis ukraine, go deeper into ukrainian territory and didn't find that resistance in the form of american military assistance, american partnership, political and military partnership with ukraine, that would not be a stop sign to vladimir putin. it would be a green light. >> one of those viindividuals w marie yovanovitch. helper testimony was showing her steeliness, her importance and those who stand in front of the the diplomatic core to prevent that from happening. what do you think america also saw from marie yovanovitch and her three decades of service? >> i think they saw firsthand from marie yovanovitch why it's so important that we not have a
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shadow foreign policy, why it is so important that we allow our professional diplomats, people like marie yovanovitch, people like ambassador taylor, people like georgie kent and other nams to represent our country. these are the professionals. we become familiar with these names yovanovitch, kent, flor, b -- taylor, but they are the tip of the iceberg. there are tens of thousands of them in the state department, in the national security staff, the intelligence community, in the department of defense, individuals sworn an oath to defend the constitution of the united states. the key difference between those individuals and individuals like rudy giuliani is that oath. those individuals we've seen testify, defend and protect the united states, everyone else is in this case defending and protecting the interest of one man, and that's donald trump. >> as ambassador yovanovitch said, they put their lives on the line here, the very individuals you talked about, and that is definitely one of the messages that came out of
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this week. thank you so much. msnbc national security analyst ned price, appreciate it. we'll be right back. >> thank you. >> you bet. 25. that's why i take osteo bi-flex, to keep me moving the way i was made to. it nourishes and strengthens my joints for the long term. osteo bi-flex - now in triple strength plus magnesium. motor?
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coming up for you, two who don't remember watergate prosecutors join me to discuss what legal jeopardy the president now faces as we take a deeper dive into two newly released testimony transcripts just released in the impeachment inquiry. (burke) at farmers insurance, we've seen almost everything
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don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking eliquis, you may bruise more easily and it may take longer than usual for any bleeding to stop. seek immediate medical care for sudden signs of bleeding, like unusual bruising. eliquis may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. eliquis, the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor if eliquis is what's next for you. breaking news we're covering the last several hours here, following capitol hill tonight. transcripts have been released of national securitied a viedzer tim morrison and aide to vice president mike pence, jennifer williams. who better to have on this day
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the last two weeks? you got just got in, what do you make of these two new data dumps of the transcripts, hundreds of pages, what have you been able to see what stands out? >> with vice president pence's person, i mean it looks like now pence was kept away from president zlelenskzelensky's inauguration campaign part of the bribery skaem to get the ukrainians to investigate the bidens. i'm sure it's something that the committee is going to investigate further. with respect to morrison it's more of the same, he's reporting more of the same facts. he doesn't come to the same conclusions but he's not somebody -- he's a former republican staffer who had been in the congress for a long time. wasn't really somebody that was
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that experienced in foreign affairs and dealing with national security council. but he reports facts that are basically on all fours with the other witnesses. what we're seeing here is an investigation in realtime. not like watergate where the house judiciary had everything presented to them by our house and the senate select committee that had done an investigation before. what's really interesting here, we're watching this all come together in real time because once this they get a little bit piece of information they go out and investigate more. we keep learning more. >> jill, having been through this before where's the prosecution going with this? >> building a very strong and compelling case and where they're going they're taking each piece, i think, as nick just said, each person is
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corroborating what the person testified before them. each fact is fitting in and they'll keep following it up. for example the testimony of holmes about the sondland public conversation with the president from his cell phone in a restaurant and there were two other witnesses. i'm sure what they're doing, they're calling those other two people to confirm their recollection is the same and so it's really a question of how much time will it take and how far do you have to get? as a prosecutor you learn you have to come to a conclusion at some point. >> all right, nick, jill, thank you so much. that wraps it up for me this hour. impeachment coverage continues straight ahead. liberty mu... line? cut. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. cut. liberty m... am i allowed to riff? what if i come out of the water? liberty biberty...
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tonight on a special edition of "all in." >> the beginning of the story is an effort to get you out of the way. >> impeachment hearings day two. >> sounded like a threat. >> donald trump cannot help himself. >> as we sit here testifying the president is attacking you on twitter. >> tonight, the president commits what looks like witness tampering during his impeachment hearing. >> well, it's very intimidating. >> as his former political adviser is found guilty of witness tampering. plus, new reporting on what the president's lawyer was up in ukraine and congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez on all the president's mess.