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tv   MSNBC Live With Velshi and Ruhle  MSNBC  December 10, 2019 10:00am-11:01am PST

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that does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." here's stephanie ruhle. it's a big day here, tuesday, coming up this hour on ali velshi, it is official, democrats have released the ha ha are articles of.
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today jerry nadler unveiled articles of impeachment against president trump. the articles include abuse of power and obstruction of justice. in the articles, nadler writing that the president abused his office by, quote, soliciting the government of ukraine to publicly announce investigations that would benefit his reelection, harm the election prospects, and influence the 2020 united states presidential electi electionally, offices and officials, not to comply with those subpoenas.
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the first order of business for members of congress is the solemn act to take an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the united states. the articles will show that we will defend the constitution and that our oath means something to us. >> republicans responded by accusing democrats of abusing congress's power to investigate. this is not a day that america will be proud about, not a day that history will write
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that anybody wants to repeat. >> 16 members of the house judiciary panel had already vote indeed favor of impeachment before this process started. >> this is a clock and calendar. this is not about facts. this is the fact they do not like this president. >> the abuse of power is by the democrats, not by president trump. >> the how judiciary committee is expect to do vote on articles this week e. sending it to the floor for a final house vote. i have an all-star cast. heidi, to you first, walk us thus these articles. >> >> the has are filled with holiday cheer, so let's just go with it. the short document, there's two things they were trying to demonstrate here, first that this is a unique moment in the,
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quote history of the republic, and second the president as actions show a pattern. they laid these out because they wanted to show like any other impeachment, the history violated all three ways that the founders set out for conditions for impeaches a president, the first being all of them falling under abuse of power. first using the office for personal gain, soliciting interference in an election by a foreign negotiation, seeking to influence the 2020 election to benefit himself. secondly betraying the national interesting of the country and corrupting our election, and then c, proving corrupt intend, soliciting this foreign power to harm a political opponent with opposition research, showing that there was corrupt intend. he knew he was fanning conspiracy theories, so they also cite -- i think this is important, both in the case of on instruction and the abuse of
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power, that this is part of a pattern by the president, that he, on obstruction ordered all of his most closest deputies to defy congressional subpoenas that were lawfully issued, and that this was just a blanket obstruction, as much as the president obstructing his own impeachment when the constitution says the sole power of impeachment lies with congress. >> heidi, are these finalized articles? could we see them change any way? >> highly doubt they'll change in any way. what will happen is the managers will be picked. there's a lot of work to be done here. you with ask joel about this, i think there were 30-something managers chosen. so we know that adam schiff will be one of them. they will be building out their case, but this framework will stand. >> maya, help us understand the
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specifics here that the democrats are zeroing in on. >> yeah, i think heidi summarized it well. at its core, what democrats are saying is impeachment is unique. it's not something that's supposed to happen every day, it's rare, but with credible evidence of very serious wrongdoing, it's appropriate. what they're zoning in on is serious, it's serious because only the president has the powers that donald trump used to, as in the words that they use, create this scheme to interfere in our elections and undermined our national security. they're really honing in on, forget the words bribery, forget extortion, forget all the legalisms that got the american public torn up into this debate among part sans, and just focused directly in on the conduct, and the conduct is himself, using his office, for
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his gain, even when it was to the detriment of the country, both in terms of our elections, in terms of our national security, and in terms of our balance of powers between congress and the presidency. the only play where we see bribery is where they are quoting the impeachment clause of the constitution itself. other than what the president did technically constitutes bribery.
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bribery as it presently exists on our federal statutes, so i think it was smart that instead of inviting a debate about whether his conduct technically constituted bribery, or whether it was extortion, whether it was just coercion, they avoided that altogether by simply saying it all, regardless of what you call it, it all constitutes an abuse of power. from this old trial prosecutor's tactical perspective, i think that makes sense. >> which article do you think has a stronger case, jill? >> i think they're both very strong one thing that's not been said so far in this discussion, is one of the references in both counts is to the fact that the president remains a threat to
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our democracy in the election. i think that's important to keep in mind why action is needed now instead of waiting until after the election. he has does something, and remains a threat. i would also like to have seen references to the obstruction of the mueller investigation, and i would have liked to have seen references to the obstruction of congress's oversight role. not to the impeachment power, but the oversight role. the president has resisted all cooperation with any investigation of any of his policies, including children in cages. i think that is a serious threat to democracy. i think that the american people and that the members of congress could have handled more specificity in those regards. >> maya, the articles have very
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specification language -- no president has ever ordered the complete defiance of an inquiry, and obstructioned the house so -- even if that's true, if there's no consequence to the president's defiance, if in fact it works to that the democrats don't get the documents, can't speak to mick mulvaney, can't the white house say work for me. >> part of the danger here, in terms of what happens in the senate, right in voting articles of impeachment that includes the obstruction means the house at least will be able to set a bar that says it is impeachable, something we can if you this ward our possible that essential
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if they're ability -- a you don't have which i think there's sufficient evidence, and then at the same time they essential set up a situation where any president quickly can literally just avoid impeachment, no matter what. >> so let's say they do that, glenn kirshner, john roberts will preside over the senate trial. what position does that put him in? >> in part it depends on how much authority the senate gives them. it only takes 51 senators to vote on all sorts of procedural rules. you know, this is not what we think of when we think of with the traditional trial, where the
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judge controls the proceedings. in a very real sense, 51 senators control the proceedings. now, i don't want to just say the republicans control the proceedings, because i don't think there's any guarantee that all republican senators will necessarily vote the exact same way on every procedural issue that comes up for debate, that comes up for a possible vote, what witnesses to call, what -- what items of evidence to receive as part of the trial. >> but, glenn, you think that mitch mcconnell is going to set up a sonar wrote where he relinquishing any control he doesn't absolutely have to? >> the answer is no. but i think there are some still patriotic, sufficiently independent, law-abiding members of the senate who will not go along with everything that they view as mitch mcconnell
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shenanigans. >> but mitch mcconnell is the one setting the stage. he makes the rules. >> he makes the rules, but they have to be voted on. whether some of these rules are going to be adopted for purposes of how to conduct the senate trial, some of those rules have to be voted on and passed by 51 of the senators. so i'm not counting out that there are still some patriots in the senate. >> all right. thank you all solve. definitely -- heidi, maya, jill and glenn, thank you. our own pete williams just sat down with attorney general bill barr on this historic day. why barr disagrees with the inspector general's reporter about the fbi's russia investigation. you're watching aing advisory - "velshi & ruhle" right here on
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. welcome back, william bar speaking out in a new exclusive interview in the wake of the impeachment inquiry, and the bombshell report, confirming that the fbi had, quote, authorized purpose to investigate any potential ties between president trump's 2016 campaign and russia. nbc's pete williams pressed the attorney general on those very findings, and a lot more. inch why do you say the fbi
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opened the investigation of the trump campaigns on the thinnest of suspicions? >> i'm glad to get into that issue, but let me start by saying, we have to put it in context. the heart of the ig's report focused on how the ig's investigation was conducted. that is especially the very serious abuses of fisa that occurred, much of which has been in my view not accurately reported by the press over the last day, but one area i do disagree with the ig. that was whether there was sufficient proceeded indicatied >> he guess on the one hand you
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could sea it's -- on the other hand you could say it's a presidential campaign, we have to be careful. >> well, i think probably from a civil liberties standpoint, the greatest danger to our free system is that the incumbent government use the apparatus of the state, principally the law enforcement agencies and intelligence agency, both to spied on political opponent, but also to use them in a way that could affect the outcountry of the election. farce i'm aware, this is the first time in history this has been done to a presidential campaign, a use of counter-intelligence techniques against a presidential campaign. >> so the inspector general says he found no evidence to indicate that the fbi's decision to start this investigation was based on a political bias. do you agree? >> what he actually -- i think
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you have to understand the ig's methodology. i think it's the appropriate methodology for an inspector general. he starts with limited information. he can only talk to people essential there as employees.'s information, but his approach is if i get an explanation from the people that i'm investigating not unreasonable on its face, i will accept it as long as there's not contradictory testimonial or documentary evidence. it's a deferential standard, in other words. all he said is people gave me an explanation, i didn't find anything to contradict it, so i don't have a basis for saying there was improper motive, but he hasn't decided the issue of improper motive. >> have you? >> no. >> you have outlined a newspaper better, and so does the inspector general, with problems on how the fbi handled the
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investigation. are you confidence that chris wray can fix it? i ask that in light of the president's tweet this morning. "with that kind of attitude, he'll never be able to fix the fbi." >> practically speak, i think chris has been working hard to address the problems of the past. we have worked well together. the people involved in the past are no longer there. he's brought in a new team that i think is a good team. i have confidence in that team, and i think he has set forth a number of specific proposals as to how to address those problems. i think what the president was getting at, and i feel the same way is we could ignore the abuses of the past and appear to be justifying them or minimizing them. we have to focus on getting it right going forward. >> so you have confidence in chris wray? yes.
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nbc justice correspondent pete williams joins me now. pete, based on what we just heard, it seems like attorney general bill barr is trying to have it both ways. he's defending christopher wray and the president. just a few hours ago, the president was going after christopher wray. >> reporter: well, i think what the attorney general is saying is that the problems he was concerned with happened in essence under old fbi management. that's what he's most critical of. he seems to say that chris wray is on the right track trying to fix those problems. it's not just the attorney general, but the inspector general was worried about how the fbi kept processing this warrant application to survey carter page, conduct a wiretapping on him. that's where the inspector general focuses most of his criticism, the fact that the fbi was ignoring in its submissions
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to the court things that would cut the other way. >> he spoke at length about john durham, running a separate investigation into the origins of the russia probe. tell us more about that. >> yes, he said the advantage in his mind to the durham investigation is, unlike the inspector general who basically looked in-house at what the fbi and justice department were doing, john durham has freer rein. he can talk on other parts of the department, and as we now know, most notably, to other governments, to the extent they were involved in collecting information that ended up in the hands of the u.s. government. now, i did ask him whether it was appropriate for durham to put out a statement, given that his investigation is still under way. it's a grand jury investigation, to put out a preliminary statement as he did yesterday, saying he too disagrees with the inspector general's finding on whether the investigation should
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have been opened in the first place, and the durham investigation is nowhere near done. >> all right, pete, great interview. thank you so much. next, president trump attacking his own fbi director. he did it on twitter yet again. the bigger question is, what harm does this do to the intelligence community at large? coming up we'll look at what's next in the inquiry, but sheila jackson lee, a member of the house judiciary committee, we're going to dig into that and more. you're watching "velshi & ruhle." more you're watching "velshi & ruhle. you can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. oh no,... ...a cougher. welcome to flu season, karen. is a regular flu shot strong enough... help prevent flu in someone your age?
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welcome back to "velshi & ruhle." this morning fbi director christopher wray was asked about the report and its findings. >> based on the findings in the inspector general report, was the fbi part of some deep state? i think the label that's a disservice to the 37,000 men and women who work at the fbi. that's not a term i would ever
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use. >> so the fbi did not spy on a campaign? >> that's not a temple we use to describe our work. just minutes after that air trump tweeted this -- i don't know what report current director of the fbi christopher wray was reading, but it sure wasn't the one given to me. with that kind of attitude, he will never be able to fix the fbi. the number three position at the fbi, robert anderson, former spokesperson and senior director of the security council, ned price. he also served as special assistant to the president and now an msnbc analyst. "los angeles times" white house reporter eli stoker. they talked about foreign contributions, and ibt to share
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what he said. >> as far as i'm aware, this is the first time in history this has been done to a presidential campaign. we have to remember, in today's world, presidential campaigns are frequently in contact can foreign persons. instead in most campaigns there are sign of illegal foreign money coming in. we don't automatically assume that the campaigns are nefarious, and traitors, acting in league with foreign powers. many professional have said it's not normal for a campaign to communicate with russians hundreds of time, and here is bill brar giving us a no-biggie. >> i got to tell you, my experience in the fbi is
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obviously foreign powers like russia and others are constantly targeting our presidential and political campaigns we would conduct in -- so the fact that he kind of mentions this is a routine thing, i'm not siding with that at all. in most cases, frankly, in a higher presidential or governor or senatorial races, we look at that as a significant indication of targeting that candidate and most likely would go talk with them. if there were issues with the fisa warning, there was no political bias in opening the investigation. given that conclusion, how does it impact the 35,000 i think it's great they found there was
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no bias i think it also points out there's a lot of issues to fix the fbi, where cases are being run, i think chris wray is already on top of thatted fact that -- notice openly criticizes chris wray, i do think it takes a toll on the workforce in the fbi. as he said men and women are all over the world working to keep us safe, and a constant barrage by the white house takes its toll. >> i think we can think about this in a couple different ways. of course it doesn't help the morale of an important national security workforce when the
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president and people like bill barr are continually going after them, the people who are supposed to be in charge of that workforce, and there are practical implications. there have been cases of people who have betrayed the united states to go to the russians, the chinese, because they were dissatisfied, they had such low morale but a more important implication is by contradicting what we are hearing, but consistentably attacking the fbi, cia, other entities of our national security, president trump and his defenders are going to make those in charge with our national security think once, twice or perhaps not take the tough but necessary decisions when it comes to investigative steps that are in
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our national interest we could one day see a time when an important threat goes unheeded, because someone in the command didn't want to see themselves on the other end of the political winds. that's dangerous for you are's a country. how safe is christopher wray's job? the president called him the current director. >> that seems like a not-so-subtle statement, insinuating that wray serves at the president's pleasure. i don't have any reporting that the president is considering that, but the president seems to want to put political pressure on the fbi director, but that does not necessarily mean he's planning on removing him. he understands that he removed
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jim comey and that sparked the special counsel investigation, even though yesterday when he was in the cabinet room reacting to the news of the ig's report, suggesting falsely that it basically proved this bog gus theory that all of this, the russian investigation was a deep-state witch-hunt, even though the report said the opposite, the president confirmed it by confirming his believe that there was an attempt to overthrow the elocated leadership of the country, even though he hnlt been elected during the campaign. he also seemed to insinuate he had to do something about it. he did not specifically mention the comey firing, but he seemed to be suggesting that he fired comey, because he knew there were some problems at the fbi under his leadership. >> robert anderson, for you at home, don't go anywhere. we have more to do. we are digging into the
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politics of impeachment with our own steve carnaci and chris matthews. and have democrats been able to change any hearts or minds in this process? coming up we'll speak with a member of the how juice dishary committee, sheila jackson lee. y committee, silhea jackson lee. (groans) hmph... (food grunting menacingly) when the food you love doesn't love you back, stay smooth and fight heartburn fast with tums smoothies. ♪ tum tum-tum tum tums with tums smoothies. apps except work.rywhere... why is that? is it because people love filling out forms? maybe they like checking with their supervisor to see how much vacation time they have.
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american history, the house is drawing up articles much impeachment against the president of the united states of america. house democrats note this -- no president has ever ordered the complete defiance of an impeachment inquiry or sought to obstruct and impede so comprehensively the ability of the house of representatives to investigate high crimes and misdemeanors. joins me are my dear friend steve kornacki, and the host of "hardball," chris ma matthews. give us a history lesson. >> the party was split on nixon. there was a dramatic event, the release of the june 23rd tape to show that you can hear him obstructing by covering up.
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that was it. >> but can the last two years, when we've said -- this is it. and what the president is masterful at is rebranding, marketing and twisting things. , what the republicans on the how judiciary have wanted to do is get people back to their tribal corners. all they're asking is are you a democrat object republican? >> the five machine they call it. stop talking about the evidence
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and focus on the simple question of which side are you on? ist a very smart move. if you just say what they won, it's going to be interested. because it breaks about even. look at the latest polls. but my god, it's narrow. it's not bad. 50-50. >> the poll numbers aren't moving. what does that mean if you're nancy pelosi? >> chris just mentioned it, on that question of impeaching trump, 40% say yes, 46% say no, don't. 48/46 was the pop ulair vote margin. what it tells me is all of the attention, everything chris is talking about there, people are synced up where.
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we don't see a process on either say is changing minds. that is the -- began when the vietnam war was killing or people, just killing our people. so what happened is johnson went out of office, all of a -- right under johnson, right through the republican party is very bitter about that. >> it got us into the war, kenny and johnson. you know what the average democrat thought? we've got a chance to screw this guy, get this guy. we gave them a sword and they plunged in with relish.
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you know, i agree, a lot of it has to do with medium, back in the '60s, '50s, there was a moderate newspaper when they died the moderate party died, so you do need a medium. it's mart. roger ailes gave it to them. >> had fox news existed?
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teddy kennedy went do you there to screw him in the south. nixon problem was he didn't have friends. kissinger was right. it's pretty basic. he didn't have people fighting for him. you're not just thinking about the home state, but i'm you for reelection.
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they're going to have to get through a primary next year. the primary will be -- plus pro-trump. no matter -- he he wants to die in that job. a lot of bachelors back in the old days were southern democrats. he want to stay there. he wants 90% this time so no one will challenge him next time. lindsey is a likable guy, but why is his tail wagging all the time when trump comes in the room? because he wants to get reelect ed soundly. >> chris matthews, steve kornacki, a pleasure to have you both here. next we'll hear from sheila jackson lee on impeachment, to 20, and trump's new attacks on
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way. jerry nadler unveiled two articles of impeachment against the president of the united states. nadler sitting alongside nancy pelosi and other committee chairs said that quote, no one, not even the president s above the law. joining me now, congresswoman sheila jackson lee from the state of texas. congresswoman, thank you for join iing me. articles of impeachment just released. how does your committee decide on these two specifically? >> well, hi. i'm so delighted you have me. first of all, this is not something that any member of congress ran for office to do. this is a sober and somber moment and it's going to be ultimately a moment of moral conscious. not a moment of whether you're a democrat, republican, independent. finally, let me say that i was here for the 1998 impeachment proceedings. and my predecessor, the honorable robert jordan, who
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held this seat, was here in the nixon proceedings and as well i knew leon very well. so i've been around these issues and has never been easy. we did a lot of work and i want to thank chairman nadler, schiff and the entire team of chairpersons who stood with speaker pelosi. this work was not frivolous. it was serious. democratic members of the judiciary committee were here over the weekend into yesterday discussing these issues and frankly, we believe that we have put forward the central theme that the president put himself, his personal interests, his private interests, before the national securities of the american people. it's plain and simple. and in essence, the constitution is law. many people don't see it as a legal document. it is hawe. it is a set of laws. and the president violated the highest law of the land and therefore, he participated in high crimes and misdemeanors.
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>> it's law but in the next steps when this thing makes its way to the senate, mitch mcconnell will be setting a lot of those rules. how much of a disadvantage does u that put you in as far as getting this thing through? >> again, let me go back to my theme of how decisions should be made. yes, the majority leader will make the rules but there is no tout that the power of impeachment is in the house of representatives. we are doing our job. we'll ultimately have those impeachment articles on the floor. we'll seek to have people vote their conscious and pass those articles of impeachment, which by the way, do build on the president's pattern of behavior that seeks political help from foreign entities. ukraine and of course we all remember russia, are you listening. e-mails. china, help us out. so there's a pattern of behavior
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and a continuing threat. what wepg will happen is that the house managers will have a very solid basis of material including the 300 page document p prepared by the committees who were part of the investigation. the house u judiciary committee has had two years of hearings and respond to a certain act. those materials certainly will be part of it. and i believe that the majority leader needs to be fair. a fair ash tor and let the jurors, the r senator, all of them, hear all the facts and let them as jurors make the decision. this is not frivolous and we can't handle it frivolously or in a political manner. it is not a political process to the extent that we get in our corners and we say we're democrats and republicans or independents. it has to be what is best for this country. >> attorney general bill barr disputing the inspector general's report.
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president trump attacking on twitter his own fbi director. what does this do to the intelligence community and how much can it confuse the american people? >> can i say that it breaks my heart? i'm a 24-year member of the house judiciary committee. i have seen many fbi directors i have disagreed with them on policy, but i have respected them for their service to this this country. they have even helped me solve problems, horrible cases in my own district when identi've cal them in. let me be very clear with barr. here he goes again. he stepped on the report that was worked on so hard by the mueller lawyers. he now u steps on this. he has taken not a position that he is attorney for the people of the united states, he has clearly taken a position that rerepresents one man and one person and that's the president of the united states. that's not the job of the attorney general. i would say that the inspector general's report cleared the fbi in terms of bias.
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they said they had no bias respect to the russian investigation. yes, they had infractions and wrong procedures that as a member of the judiciary committee, i'm going to help them correct, changing the law, looking at how pfizer applications are made, but it is absolutely absurd that the attorney general would not give credit to hard working members of the fbi across america solving crimes, being called in right now, being called in in difficult cases, finding individuals who have been kidnapped, et cetera. my answer to that, it is sad, but the report stands on its own two feet. the inswekter general is an independent agency and i believe the american people should look at the long standing history of the fbi. overall, their intent to be to serve the american people. >> thank you. still ahead, the power of pennsylvania.
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that was from my colleague katy tur is the next hour. she's speaking impeachment and whether pa will go for trump again in 2020. and whether pa will go for trump again in 2020. what'd we decide on the flyers again? uh, "fifteen minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance." i think we're gonna swap over to "over seventy-five years of savings and service." what, we're just gonna swap over? yep. pump the breaks on this, swap it over to that. pump the breaks, and, uh, swap over? that's right. instead of all this that i've already-? yeah. what are we gonna do with these? keep it at your desk, and save it for next time. geico. over 75 years of savings and service. and when you open a new brokerage account, your cash is automatically invested at a great rate. that's why fidelity leads the industry in value while our competition continues to talk. ♪ talk, talk
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thank you for watching. right now, katy tur picks up coverage in pennsylvania. >> it's 11:00 a.m. out west and 2:00 p.m. in pennsylvania and on this historic day, we wanted to get out of new york and d.c. and see how the country is viewing what's happening in washington. we are here at the mill in hershey, pennsylvania. the president is going to hold a rally down the street later today. and the president won this state by less than a percentage point in 2016. and if he makes it to 2020, he'll need to win it again. voters here might also hold the answer as to if he'll make it to


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