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tv   MSNBC Live With Ali Velshi  MSNBC  December 20, 2019 12:00pm-1:00pm PST

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that lets you design your own data. choose unlimited, shared data, or mix lines of each and switch any line, anytime. giving you more choice and control compared to other top wireless carriers. save up to $400 a year when you switch. plus, unwrap $250 off a new samsung phone. click, call or visit a store today. only took 14 seconds of your show. >> that's not bad. >> if the viewers only knew there was a potential you were going to take a whole lot more because i was stuck trying to get down here in an elevator. but i knew you were here so it was all going to be okay. always my pleasure, my friend. >> philippe and i could have gone another hour talking about chicken skewers. >> have yourself a great weekend. >> see you later. >> it is friday, december the 20th. no president has done more for the evangelical community and
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it's not even close. that's president trump's message to one of his core constituencies after an evangelical chris man magazine founded by the reverend billy graham published a scathing editorial about donald trump. the president called christianity today a far-left and progressive outlet. and said it was doing poorly after the publication called for him to be removed from office. the editorial says the president's actions in regard to ukraine are not only a violation of the constitution but, importantly, it is a profound -- it is profoundly immoral. it went on to say unsavory dealings and immoral acts by the president and those close to him have rendered this administration morally unable to lead. and that should -- he should be removed -- that he should be removed, we believe is not only a matter of partisan loyalties but loyalty to the creator of the ten commandments. now, according to the research center, 81% of evangelical christians voted for donald
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trump in 2016. earlier, i talked with the editorial writer mark galley about what has changed. >> a lot of my conservative friends, they continue to support him for those reasons. saying we don't like his behavior. we don't like his morals. but he's doing these good things. they're doing the balancing thing. and it's been -- it's my judgment in the last couple weeks that that balancing no longer works. what we're talking about now is someone who is -- you know, one might say to continue the analogy, a morally-abusive in a dangerous way. and it's -- the -- the scales don't work anymore. and it's -- it's time for him to leave the house. >> now, this editorial comes as conservative opposition to president trump continues to grow. just this week, a group of conservative critics, including george conway, the husband of white house counselor kellyanne conway announced the creation of the lincoln project aimed at blunting the re-election chances of donald trump and his congressional allies. i want to dig into this right now starting with nbc's jeff
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bennet at the white house. jeff, the president is not done talking about this yet. what else has he had to say? >> hey, ali. good to see you. president trump, in a tweet, said he is no longer going to read "christianity today." it's not clear he ever did. but look. why evangelicals have been steadfast in their support for president trump despite what they see, on one hand if you listen to conservative talk radio, you often times hear white evangelicals compare president trump to king cyrus. if you read the old testament in the book of isaiah, king cyrus was the persian king chosen by god to navigate through chaos. so that is the theological explanation they often uto justify their support for president trump. but white evangelicals for generations in their own self-interest and self-pragmatism identified
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policy goals. and then found politicians who helped them realize those policy goals. and so that is one of the reasons why despite president trump's interactions with stormy daniels, his -- his comments after the -- the charlottesville violence. the policy of separating children from their parents at the border. that is one of the reasons why white evangelicals have stuck by this president come what may. and so, certainly, he was taken aback and shaken by that op-ed that was written in "christianity today." but certainly, that does not reflect most of white evangelicals and their stated support for president trump, ali. >> is there any sense, despite the fact that the president obviously didn't like that because he considers that his base, is there any sense of influence that this publication has on that base? it does seem to be a publication that appears in most evangelical churches. >> yeah. but the trump base, i would say,
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does not take their cues from that kind of publication. they're taking their cues from what you might call the right-wing media machine. to include fox news, oann, conservative talk radio. that realm. not so much the sort of somber, sober, well-reasoned arguments, theological-backed arguments. >> good to see you, my friend. geoff bennet for us at the white house. joining us now is jack jenkins, national reporter for the religion news service. also, author of the upcoming book "american prophets." jack, i knew i was going to talk to you so i was sort of setting that conversation up a little bit with geoff about the influence of christian today. the publication because the president called it a progressive, left-leaning publication. i was talking to mark galley and he said people call us a lot of things. they don't typically get accused
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of being progressive. >> right. no, this is not a publication that is, you know, left wing by any stretch of the imagination. at most, it's more center-left or moderate within the broader corpus of evangelicalism. cosmopolitan or elite evangelicals. these have more of a tie to older institutions like wheaten college and "christianity today." the difference about this publication and this editorial, though, is that that group actually became pretty quiet after the 2016 election. and while there was some criticism from groups like and individuals like russell moore, he was very critical of trump during the 2016 campaign. you haven't heard as much from them. so for this more conservative group to start speaking out again, it may be a har bin jer
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of things to come. >> do you have any sense now why for all the things that might bother an evangelical christian about donald trump. the ukraine phone call and interference there would have been the straw that broke the camel's back. >> right. i think it has a lot to do with power. i think it has to do with, you know, when they're looking at the situation. you know, this came out after, you know, the house voted to impeach trump. right? so we're seeing this as like in -- an exposing of the kind of immorality that might have grumbled about quietly. now, they get to trumpet out loud because they feel there may have been a slight shift in power. but i also do think, mark talked about it in his editorial. he thinks the case for impeachment was really clear. and he's not the only evangelical that thinks that. i also think there is something else right around that same time during the house impeachment vote that we heard the prsesidet referring to john dingell, the
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late congressman, and ill-implying that he was burning in hell. so i think there was kind of a one-two hit there. >> let me ask you about the -- the -- billy graham's son, franklin graham. the father founded the newspaper. franklin graham's been a vocal supporter of donald trump. says his father liked trump but wouldn't be happy with the editorial. i'm going to quote from what he wrote at "the washington post." he said he would have been very embarrassed that the magazine he started would call for something like this when there are no crimes committed. it's a totally different magazine than what he started. he also added, "christianity today" to decide with the democrat party in a totally partisan attack is unfathomable. i bring this up because they didn't sort of take a partisan view on this at all. they were sort of basing this on things that franklin graham may not agree with. but franklin graham is sort of signaling that this is a partisan attack by what he calls the democrat party. >> right. i mean, mark at "christianity
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today" is pretty clear he identifies as independent. but also, you know, franklin graham and a cadre of other evangelical supporters, head of liberty university, that have been, you know, stalwart supporters of trump through his biggest scandals. these are the people sometimes the white house will direct reporters to speak to instead of white house officials when there is a controversy impacting the president. i mean, these are some of the most stalwart supporters the president has. now, interestingly, they are not usually among that sort of cosmopolitan evangelical elite. they are part of a group that was actually more marginal before the election of donald trump. but, you know, franklin graham has gone out there to defend the president several times. so not super surprising he would do it again this go around. >> jack, good to see you. jack jenkins.
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let's go to capitol hill where house and senate members are heading home for the holidays without settling on the logistics for president trump's upcoming impeachment trial. senate leaders mitch mcconnell and chuck schumer met late thursday. mcconnell said afterwards that the talks are at an impasse. >> my friend, the democratic leader, continues to demand a new and different set of rules for president trump. we remain at an impasse on these logistics. for myself, i continue to believe that the unanimous bipab bipartisan precedent ought to be good enough for president trump. >> schumer's spokesperson saying in part senator schumer asked senator mcconnell to consider senator schumer's proposal over the holidays because senator schumer and his caucus believe the witnesses and documents are essential to a fair senate trial. lean leigh anne caldwell joins us now from capitol hill. is any of this delaying the process? would the senate have otherwise had rules in place for what this trial is going to look like?
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>> well, yeah, we're going on a two-week break now. so nothing was going to happen over these two weeks anyway. there's nothing scheduled as of this point between schumer and mcconnell to meet over the next two weeks. and if past is precedent, then i wouldn't expect there to be meetings or anything to be worked out over the christmas, new year holiday anyway. look. these guys are pros. they have been here before in these stalemates. they are fine waiting. mcconnell has indicated that he's not in any rush to have a trial. and he doesn't even want a trial. and democratic -- democratic sources in the house have told me that house speaker nancy pelosi wants impeachment dangling out there. she didn't want it rushed over to the senate. and just the new -- the new flashy thing over there. she wanted this to settle in, into the public, and of course she wants a fair trial. and she's trying to use her leverage. but if there's any indication we have that this is probably going to be worked out when they return in early january because
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there was a break anyway. and there's really no rush at this moment for them to get started because they were going to be gone. ali. >> all right, leigh anne, thank you as always. a big reason for that impasse we were talking about is house speaker nancy pelosi has not sent the articles of impeachment over to the senate. harvard law professor lawrence tribe pushed the idea in an op-ed in "the washington post" earlier this week before the house voted to impeach trump. he wrote, quote, this option needs to be taken seriously. now that majority leader mitch mcconnell has announced his intention to conduct not a real trial but a white wash letting the president and his legal team call the shots. tribe added it could strengthen senate minority leader chuck schumer's hand in bargaining over trial rules with mcconnell because if mcconnell's and trump's urgent desire to get this whole business behind them. now, professor tribe was asked about pelosi's move during an appearance on the last word last night. >> i do think that she's handled
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it just brilliantly, as has schumer. i mean, i think even though what the majority leader said this morning was nonsense. and he didn't discuss any of the facts. it was a pretty hard act to follow because to somebody who hasn't been in the weeds, it may have sounded reasonable. >> joining us now to have a closer look at this is j.w., associate professor of law. he is one of 900 legal scholars who signed a letter earlier this month concluding that president trump engaged in impeachable conduct. j.w., thank you for being with us. give me your sense of this. why, and for how long, would delaying transmitting the articles of impeachment to the senate be effective in getting a better trial? >> i think it can be effective for a couple of reasons. and i say this as someone who is a lifelong republican, conservative. i think it's fair to say conservative law professor and supporter of leader mcconnell on a number of initiatives.
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i think it's absolutely legitimate for the speaker to engage in this strategy. i think it can be effective for a couple of reasons. one, you have donald trump having a very different and i think frankly misguided from his own interest view in wanting to see more of a public show. that's always been i think through all of this, that's been his achilles heel. at the same time, you have a small handful of republicans who i think are quietly behind the scenes interested in a more fair trial than trump wants. and are willing to work with schumer if they don't do so publicly. so i think if she buys time for all that to play out and adds leverage and pressure to let that play out, i think it'll be a winning strategy for her in the end. >> what -- what does success look like? if everybody's success is based on what the outcome of a trial would be, that's not a whole lot of mystery in the air right now about what an outcome of a senate trial would be. so what's the importance of -- of mitch mcconnell doing the right thing in terms of a trial that seems fair to the american
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public? to the justice system. in front of the -- the -- the chief justice of the supreme court. what's the relevance of this looking fair and being fair? >> the relevance is, first of all, the judgment of history. that what donald trump did is not okay. i think the -- what victory looks like is presenting this message to the american people. by recent polls, 50 to 55% of whom believe it was proper for him to be impeached. they deserve to eventually see this process play out in a transparent way. i think we could learn new things that we don't know now from testimonies by mulvaney and particularly john bolton. i think that could, potentially, be a game changer. you don't know until you get people in the seat testifying under penalty of perjury what they'll say. >> a game changer enough to change republican votes to remove president trump from office? >> a game changer in the ability to potentially move some of them. though, i think he will ultimately be acquitted at trial. that doesn't make this an empty
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exercise. and it could move voters, too. remember, obama's historic election had 90% of republicans voting for him. i think if you can get to 10-15% of republicans voting for a moderate alternative to trump, like joe biden, i think that will also be a game changer and this trial could affect that. >> thank you for joining me. associate professor at the law school at george mason university. all right. coming up, pete buttigieg found himself at the center of attention at last night's democratic primary debate. we're looking at who that helped most. him? amy klobuchar? elizabeth warren? because the two of them took their issues with him to the campaign trail to full view on the debate stage last night. plus, why president trump practically, from day one in the white house, aggressively embraced the conspiracy theory that ukraine tried to keep him from winning the 2016 election. you are watching msnbc. you are watching msnbc can you tell me the story again? every family has their own unique story. give your family the chance to discover theirs this holiday season, with ancestry.
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final debate of 2019. seven of the democratic candidates took the stage. got heated. full of jabs and rousing accusations. south bend, indiana, mayor pete buttigieg appeared to be the latest target. took hits on all sides from his fundraising and his experience. >> the mayor just recently had a fundraiser that was held in a wine cave full of crystals and served $900 a bottle wine. billionaires in wine caves should not pick the next president of the united states.
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>> this is the problem with issuing purity tests you cannot, yourself, pass. if i pledge -- if i pledge never to be in the company of a progressive, democratic donor, i couldn't be up here. senator, your net worth is 100 times mine. >> i know you ran to be democratic chair of the committee. that's not something i wanted to do. i wanted to be president of the united states. and the point is we should have someone heading up this ticket that is actually won and been able to show that they can gather the support that you talk about. >> you want to talk about the capacity to win? try putting together a coalition to bring you back to office with 80% of the vote as a gay dude in mike pence's indiana. >> if you had won in indiana, that would be one thing. you tried and you lost by 20 points. >> the attacks came mostly from senators elizabeth warren and amy klobuchar, and could be in
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response to buttigieg's rising poll numbers. in the latest nbc news ""wall street journal" survey, buttigieg up three points since october. senator bernie sanders second. warren, third. vaughn hillyard joins me now. he's been covering the pete beau buttigieg campaign. last night after the debate, you spoke to buttigieg. you spoke to klobuchar. and you spoke to warren. what was the takeaway? >> i think this was a night that, you know, the name you didn't mention was joe biden. who did not come into the spin room after that. and i think in large part, because joe biden largely left those two and a half hours unscathed. instead, it was pete buttigieg who really took the fire of elizabeth warren and amy klobuchar, ali. pete buttigieg, we should know, you know, pete buttigieg is campaigning across california today. and then heading to nevada. but california doesn't vote until march 3rd on super-tuesday. really, it comes down to iowa. just 45 days away. and right now, for the last month and a half, atop the
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leader board in iowa has been pete buttigieg. and that's where you saw elizabeth warren take him on. you heard those sound bytes. take him on when it came to the fundraisers. i asked buttigieg why did he feel the need to hold these states fundraisers? he insisted he would do whatever it takes in order for the democrats to build up a war chest comparable to the trump apparatus. right now, the trump campaign has about $150 million cash on hand. you look at any of the democratic candidates, buttigieg and warren, they have about $25 million themselves. then amy klobuchar, was the other one, ali, who really took buttigieg on when it came to experience. because who are the two midwesterners in this race? pete buttigieg. amy klobuchar. amy klobuchar is looking to take some -- they like to both call themselves the pragmatic candidates in this race. it's trying to take some support away from buttigieg. >> talk to me about what klobuchar got out of that because she is not in the top-ranking list of candidates. but she's not in the bottom
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group either. she's sort of somewhere in the middle. and has to make fairly major inroads to get into the top tier. >> ever since the candidate from minnesota, ali, launched her bid in iowa back over after launching minneapolis, she first went to mason city. and you consistently here across iowa folks say the name amy klobuchar as being bone of the candidates they are really taking into consideration. but at what point do folks believe she is actually worthy of them caucusing for? what you saw last night was her trying to draw that contrast with buttigieg. and i asked buttigieg, you know, she brought up his 2010 race was the only time in which he has run statewide. and it was in that 2010 race he lost by 25 percentage points. he said, look, 2010, it was not a good year for democrats. despite two years earlier barack obama winning the state. he said that 2010 was perhaps not the best year to be looking at his metrics. to note, i -- i think as part of
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amy klobuchar's criticisms is the fact that you are seeing pete buttigieg at the age of 37 go and make the case that he is the candidate that can win the midwest. at the same time, there is a -- the governor's race in indiana is up in 2020 and pete buttigieg opted not to run for that but instead run for president. >> vaughn, good to see you my friend as always. vaughn hillyard is in los angeles for us. all right. coming up next, president trump reportedly fixated on the conspiracy theory that ukraine interfered in the 2016 election because russian president vladimir putin told him so. but first, facebook announced today that it's taken down more than 600 accounts linked to the epoch times parent company epoch media group for engaging in foreign and government interference. what the social media giant calls coordinated, inauthentic activity. epoch times is a pro-trump website known for spreading conspiracy theories, like qanon and anti-vaccination propaganda. you are watching msnbc.
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you might remember one of president trump's first controversies on the international stage from july of 2017. and i'm not going to forget this one. he privately met with russian president vladimir putin at the
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g20 summit in germany. but in case you don't remember this, we are now beginning to learn more about the close-door meeting at the time. which drew sharp criticism from foreign affairs experts. according to "the washington post," former white house officials said that they feared that as a result of that meeting, putin influenced the president's views on ukraine. and the 2016 campaign. it goes on to read, in part, quote, after meeting privately with -- in july 2017 with russian president vladimir putin at the group of 20 summit in hamburg, trump grew more insistent that ukraine worked to defeat him according to multiple former officials familiar with the assertions. one former senior white house official said trump even stated so explicitly at one point. saying he knew ukraine was the real culprit because, quote, putin told me. joining me now, former ambassador to russia. michael mcfaul. ambassador, i recall very
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distinctly in our coverage of that meeting in hamburg, you saying that there are remarkable dangers with unrecorded meetings. meetings at which there is not someone in an official capacity to be with the president. because when an accusation comes out that something happens, you tonig don't have the ability to say, no, that didn't happen. ask mike mcfaul, he was right next to me. >> great point. i remember it, too. and not going into those meetings without any advisors around you when you know nothing or virtually nothing about national security issues, foreign policy issues, very dangerous. doing it with vladimir putin is especially dangerous. i've been in many of those meetings whe meetings with vladimir putin and he is not afraid to use disinformation and make things up completely to see how you'll react. and president trump has done this time and time again. by the way, it's kind of personal because he did it once in helsinki. i don't know if you recall that.
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>> i do. >> when president putin said, oh, president trump, there's a bunch of americans who broke our laws. and rather than saying that's crazy. that's cockamamie. that can't be true. president trump went along with him, as well, in that episode. and that was about me personally. so this is a pattern that putin uses. it's just shocking that three years into the trump presidency, he still listens to him. >> so what i take away, what i have always taken away from listening to you because we've had similar discussions a lot over the last few years. is that this would be bad practice for the president of the united states if he were meeting with the prime minister of canada. or if he were meeting with the president of mozambique. it is uniquely-dangerous when dealing with an adversary and one whom you've already been accused of being too cozy with. >> yes. again, i just never understood it. i never understood why it's in trump's political interest to do it. it most certainly is not in the national security interest of the united states of america to roll into these meetings.
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especially, again, because we've now seen this pattern for years now. president trump wants to be vladimir putin's friend. right? he's made that very clear. that he wants to create a close personal relationship. and that puts him in a very vulnerable place because he's fawning. he's looking for praise from putin. and that gives putin the opportunity to -- to float this just crazy ideas, including this latest one that we've now just learned about. >> and i'm just keeping on the screen this picture. this is helsinki in 2018. where an even more amazing thing happened, if you recall. he was asked by jonathan la mere, who was on air about an hour ago with katy tur, about russian interference in the election. and donald trump said, the russians didn't do it because vladimir putin told me they didn't do it. standing next to vladimir putin, he told the world that the reason he believes something that's contrary to the -- to the advice and guidance of all of our intelligence agencies is because the guy standing next to
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him also happens to be an adversary. same adversary he met with in hamburg in 2017. told him so. so at some juncture, if the president's not willing to fix this problem, his well-meaning advisors can't fix it for him. >> well, i'm glad you brought up the advisors because all these former advisors are saying this off the record. why aren't they saying it on the record? and why aren't -- you know, why aren't we talking to secretary pompeo about this? and the national security advisor and the secretary of defense? because they know this is not true. and how can they just sit there, you know, with somebody that's -- that's, you know, literally repeating disinformation from one of our adversaries. that's not doing the job of an administration official. remember, they all took an office -- an oath of office to the -- excuse me -- to the united states of america. not to president trump. and i really do think they have -- we have to push back on them and say, you need to do
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your job to defend the united states. and not just go along with what the president continues to -- to -- to spew and spout, which we all know is just not true. >> interesting point and valid point. except i don't believe that in your tenure in government, you actually had to have this internal struggle with yourself. you probably didn't have to sit there with your closest friends and say how is it that i can maintain my oath, my loyalty to the president, and my oath to the country? the fact that we're even having this discussion is highly weird. ambassador, good to see you, my friend. michael mcfaul is the former united states ambassador to russia. coming up, as republicans continue to refuse to let democrats subpoena witnesses for president trump's impeachment trial, we are looking at who should be called to testify. plus, they blame nafta for turning their community from one booming with factories and manufacturing jobs to one of the poorest in all of ohio. so what do they think of president trump's usmca trade deal? we're going to hear from voters in the county later this hour. you're watching msnbc. movie.
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for small prices, you can build big dreams, spend less, get way more. shop everything home at wayfair.com mcconnell has announced that he is at an impasse with the top senate democrat, chuck schumer, as they try to negotiate the terms of president trump's impeachment trial. mcconnell has pledged he will not permit new witnesses to testify before the senate. "the washington post" breaks down exactly which key figures should appear and the significance that they could bring to a trial in the senate.
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for more on that, i am joined by aaron blake, senior political reporter at "the washington post." we start with the idea mitch mcconnell, echoed by lindsey graham, says we don't need witnesses. we don't really need testimony. we don't really need to read transcripts. we're in lockstep, and mitch mcconnell actually said this on tv on fox news, we're in lockstep with the white house about how we're moving forward with this. this stands in contrast to the idea that the constitution calls for the senate to hold something akin to a trial. >> yeah. and i think it's important that we view some of these early comments as posturing. i don't doubt that mitch mcconnell would prefer not to actually have a trial. certainly, that's probably the case with lindsey graham, too. but i view what democrats are doing right now by threatening to withhold the articles of impeachment as trying to apply some pressure. trying to put a -- a spotlight on what mcconnell and graham are saying. and maybe the idea is if they get some of these more moderate
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republicans like mitt romney, like susan collins, to raise a ruckus about the idea that there's not actually going to be a real trial, maybe that forces mitch mcconnell's hand a little bit. at the same time, we haven't really seen from mcconnell and collins all that much interest in rocking the boat on this. so i think it's really going to be a tough situation for democrats to extract some of these concessions and really get any of the big witnesses that they want. >> literally, i mean you need a lot of senators to come over in order to remove president trump from office. but you only need three to come over to -- to affect the rules so they can call witnesses. so if, somehow, that were to happen, what witnesses do -- does "the washington post" think would be beneficial for americans to hear from? >> well, i think what we could ultimately see here, if some of those members do raise a fuss, is there could be a little bit of horse trading going on. maybe if, you know, democrats, you know, allow for somebody like joe biden to go and testify.
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maybe joe biden decide he's going to take part in that as a -- as a service to his party. and maybe he thinks that can help him in his campaign. maybe the republicans say, okay, we'll let john bolton come talk. we'll put mick mulvaney on the stand. obviously, that's very hypothetical. but -- but the big ones here would obviously be bolton, who has shown somewhat of an interest in testifying even as he's awaiting these court cases. he seems to be the most motivated of these potential witnesses who could say something that would be harmful to the president. mick mulvaney, who is the president's top aide. the most senior person who has been directly implicated in these quid pro quos and actually admitted, before he pulled it back, that there were -- that there was a quid pro quo with the military aid. i also think it would be interesting to see a couple people who we haven't really been talking about. one would be senator ron johnson. he was in touch with both the ukrainians and with president trump towards the end of the military aid being withheld. he, of course, is going to be a juror in all of this. so that's a complicating factor. but he seems to have a
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perspective that not everybody would have. and then in a -- in a crazy world in which this would be possible, the one ukrainian who i think would really lend some perspective to this would be andriy yermak, which is the top zelensky aide conversing with these administration officials about withholding military aid and about the white house meeting. >> aaron, good to talk to you. aaron blake is a senior political reporter at "the washington post." now that negotiations for a senate trial are at a standstill, speaker nancy pelosi has decided to delay sending the articles of impeachment to the senate. and republicans are seizing the opportunity to slam the speaker for what they're calling, quote, a failed strategy. >> you know, sandra, it is as if the house voted to impeach. and now, they don't want to send it over to the senate. i would think that the reason she's doing this is she knows they have fumbled the ball. a big fumble.
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so now, she wants to play the game of hide the ball. >> i want to bring in democratic congressman from illinois. he is a member of the house intel committee and the house oversight committee. congressman, good to see you. >> same here, ali. >> fast spin on this one. because maybe it wasn't telegraphed to the country why nancy pelosi decided to delay the transmission. people like senator martha blackburn have filled that space by saying something's wrong. she's having regret. she's fumbled the ball. why don't you tell us what is actually going on here? >> no, i don't think that's the issue at all. i think that she just is very understandable that she wants to understand what the rules are in the senate for the upcoming trial before she sends over the articles of impeachment. just a couple days ago, i believe that mitch mcconnell not only uttered what you said in the previous segment. but he said, along with pat cipollone, that maybe the trial will last a few days without any witnesses. that's not a trial.
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and regardless of how divided americans are about impeachment, i think most people want some degree of fairness. and want the trial to look like something that the constitution envisioned. not some kind of a kangaroo proceeding. >> what do you think the outcome would be different amongst republican senators who would vote for impeachment if there were a trial that had the witnesses that i was just talking to aaron blake about who could be called? do you think it just makes for a better trial? or do you actually think enough senators might change their mind and vote to remove president trump from office? >> i don't know the answer to that question. however, what we do know is that, for instance, mick mulvaney is sitting on a treasure trove of documents that were subpoenaed. that were never turned over. that would give a lot more information about exactly why military aid was delayed or withheld from ukraine. even at the same time that president trump was pressuring the ukrainians to announce
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investigations of joe biden and -- and make other political announcements. and so getting those documents and then potentially having mick mulvaney come and testify under oath is, i believe, very probative of the underlying articles. and, therefore, i think that he should come forward and testify. >> do you think there's any danger? is there an amount of time, in your head or that you've been talking about with your conference members, about when a delay becomes too much? >> no, i haven't had any such conversation. as you know, the articles just passed, i think, two nights ago. and so, you know, it's -- i think it's still a time to kind of consider, you know, how these senate rules are going to be devised. i think right now the president believes that a senate trial will completely and totally exonerate him. in all caps. and i think that he is counting
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on a rigged trial to accomplish that. however, if he's not able to get that exoneration as quickly as he wants because he can't get this rigged trial as quickly as he wants, that might put some pressure on him, as well as moderate republican senators to come up with some more fair rules. and, hopefully, a trial that actually lives up to its name under the constitution. >> congressman, good to see you as always. member of the intelligence committee. up next, it went from being a booming port city with a robust manufacturing industry to one of the poorest communities in ohio. what voters in the county are saying about president trump's bipartisan-backed usmca trade deal. we'll hear from them next. you're watching msnbc. maria ramirez? hi. maria ramirez!
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investigation found that the cadettes were not using what some have called a white power symbol. they had no racist intentions and were playing what's known as the circle game. although the superintendent of the u.s. military academy says they are disappointed by the immature behavior of the cadettes and the cadettes will be disciplined. the senate finance committee just announced it will take up the u.s./mexico/canada trade agreement early next month after it passed through the house with an overwhelming majority. the $1.4 trillion deal is poised to replace the decades-old north american trade agreement, nafta. in a statement yesterday u.s. trade representative robert lighthizer called it, quote, the first-ever trade coalition of workers, farmers, republicans, democrats, business and agriculture groups, organized labor, and much more. it's still unclear how usmca is
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going to impact small factories and how much better it's going to be for them than nafta. where the new deal has been a priority for the community. dasha, how's it going over there? >> reporter: hey, ali. quick fun fact. robert lighthizer actually grew up here in ashtabula. and when he was growing up, this was a booming port city. you can see behind me we are right on the end of the ashtabula river that hits lake erie. there was a lot of economic activity around here at one time and the manufacturing industry that supported this community. but a lot of that left. and the voters we talked to here have blamed that on nafta. they felt like they saw a pretty direct connection between nafta being signed and jobs leaving this area. so they've been waiting for a pretty long time for something new to come along. so the usmca deal is giving people hope right around the holidays. i want to introduce you to a couple people we talked to. the first is the vice president
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of operations at a local manufacturing company. and followed by him you will hear from ray grubber. he is the president of the local union here. his family's been in this community for generations. take a listen to what they had to say about this. is usmca better than nafta for your business? >> yes. our initial perception is yes it is, because it changes the business structure for the automotive industry. and it puts the manufacturers in all three countries on a more even cost footing. >> reporter: and for this community and workers throughout ashtabula county, why is it better for them? >> it's employment stabilization. people don't have to be concerned about a layoff. it lets us look at investing and expanding the facility, increasing our labor force, and providing more jobs to the community. >> reporter: so you might be hiring more because of this? >> correct. we might be hiring more in the coming year.
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>> reporter: was nafta a bad deal for workers? >> yes. a lot of our jobs went to mexico. >> it was a race to the bottom. >> reporter: is the usmca deal better? is it actually a better deal? >> i hope so. more stability built in. >> reporter: and you've heard from the labor perspective there, the business perspective. but across the board voters we talked to also said that the bipartisan element of this was really encouraging to them amid all of the divisiveness that we are hearing in washington, people here want both parties to pay attention to the issues that are going to impact them day-to-day. >> dasha, thanks for your coverage of it. we will be right back after this quick break. you are watching msnbc. you are watching msnbc do you have concerns about mild memory loss related to aging? prevagen is the number one pharmacist-recommended memory support brand. you can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere.
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we business journalists call the kind of thing that's been going on in the stock market the last few days a santa clause rally. take a look the what's going on in the dow. this is on all sorts of news. we got some earnings out. we got this kind of deal. we've got the usmca done. when i say kinda deal i mine china. the dow's closing about 3% higher. the s&p 500, which i like better, as you know, than the dow, is up 1.2%. the dow's up .9 of a%. the nasdaq's up 1.7%. ooh here's what i have to tell you for the year if you are a
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regular investor who rebalances every now and then but largely doesn't trade the market, you are up 28% for the year so far. there are a couple more trading days left in this year. that is by all standards a very, very big game. there are lots of reasons for that. we can talk about that another time. that wraps it up for me. i will see you right back here 10:00 p.m. eastern. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. ♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york on the last day of a week that saw donald j. trump become only the third american president ever to be impeached, something that the "new york times" today reports has left donald trump shell shocked. and there is more, stunning new reporting in today's "washington post" about the origins of the president's belief in a russian conspiracy theory about the 2016 attack on the u.s. elections. donald trump rejecting the conclusions of his entire intelligence

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