that is all for tonight. chuck is back tomorrow with more "meet the press daily" and catch both of us at 1:00 p.m. and 2:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow, as well. "the beat with ari melber," except not ari melber tonight. stephanie ruhle is in for ari. i'm so used to saying "the beat with ari melber" that it just came out of my mouth before i could see your lovely shining face. good to see you, my friend. >> katy tur, yours truly, joy reid, we're about to have a girl party tonight on msnbc. >> you got that. >> all right. have a good night. welcome to "the beat." i'm stephanie ruhle in for ari melber. and we begin this eving with president trump and his allies

smearing and sidelining dr. anthony fauci as coronavirus cases are spiking in 39 states. at this point, more than 3.3 million americans have the virus, and 135,000 have lost their lives. the state of florida shattering the new york record with the largest single day of cases. more than 15,000, with some saying miami is becoming the epicenter of this pandemic. president trump denying opposition research against dr. fauci, despite memos released against him alleging dr. fauci was wrong on the coronavirus, with a litany of comments he made early on. now, many of those comments were based on research that we had at the time. others were completely taken out of context. but here's president trump today. >> i have a very good relationship with dr. fauci. i've had for a long time, right from the beginning. i find him to be a very nice perp. i don't always agree with him. i like him personally.

>> fauch i is the most trusted voice in the united states of america on the coronavirus. 67% of americans trust him against 26% for president trump. and who is president trump backing now? what great medical mind? former game show host chuck woolry. president trump retweeting chuck woolry, claiming that the cdc doctors and other experts are lying about the spread of the disease. think about that for a moment. president trump is amplifying the former host of "love connection" over the preeminent health expert in the united states of america. here is specifically what chuck woolery was doing when dr. anthony fauci was helping find a cure for aids. >> what i would like to do this evening is to review for you some of the most recent advances in aids. >> i'm going to give the wheel a final spin of the day and see

what happens here. >> i'm working directly on aids, both clinically and from a basic science standpoint. >> i'm still trying to figure out nathan's problem with his japanese plant. >> overall in the study, there was a 44% decrease in the risk of hiv infection. >> according to kool-aid, what are their current four best-selling flavors? >> and as president trump battles falling polls and a rising pandemic across this country, some of his allies are actually breaking with him. trump's former chief of staff and ond director mick mulvaney criticizing the way testing works in the united states. >> anybody that needs a test can have a test. i think we're doing a great job on testing. i said to my people, slow the testing down, please. >> joining me now is dr. megan

ranee, an emergency room physician at brown university. and columnist for "the washington post," my friend eugene robinson. eugene, these attacks on dr. fauci, who are they more damaging for, dr. fauci or the white house? >> well, if you look at the polls and whom people believe, they should be more damaging for the white house, because people believe dr. fauci. people also know that dr. fauci has credentials, has a history, has also a history of being honest, which is something that you cannot say about the president or about the white house or about chuck woolery for that matter, who i doubt is a true expert on coronavirus or anything else medical. we've really reached a point of insanity, and meanwhile, we are failing. we started failing on testing and we continue to fail, and

this won't get better until we get better leadership. that's the way it seems to be headed. >> doctor, the smearing of dr. fauci and the cdc, while it might be completely incorrect, do you worry that it just confuses american people more and more and as we get confused and fatigued by this, we stop listening to the experts? >> yeah. so the daily show today came out saying that one of the biggest challenges in the fight against covid was the fact that political leaders were spreading disinformation and that physicians and public health professionals were being dismissed. our job as doctors and scientists is to follow the science. and to share it effectively with the public. but we need the support of our political leaders and of our media and entertainment influencers in order to do that effectively. we cannot afford confusion on the ground right now.

this virus is too deadly. we have already seen twice what happens when we pretend that it's just going to go away. it is essential that we listen to dr. fauci and to other medical experts who are speaking out. and potentially changing their advice a little bit, because as you said, we follow the science. >> even if dr. fauci gets sidelined and even if president trump puts in someone that stays on whatever script the president wants him to, won't that blow up in this administration's face? che clearly we've learned as it's spread to many red states that initially called this a hoax, you can't deny it when people get sick. you can't deny it when you yourself or your family does. >> yeah, science is not partisan, right? this virus does not follow political rules. the virus is going to spread the same way that this virus is going to spread whether or not it's a red state or a blue

state. and my own home state of rhode island, my governor has worked incredibly effectively with folks across the aisle to put in place good testing, tracing, isolation, and to spread the message of mask wearing. we have also seen a number of red states that have done that effectively. but anyone who tries to pretend that they can use politics to bully this virus is only going to see a rising tide of illnesses, hospitalizations, and deaths. >> that's what is so congress fusing. eugene, the -- confusinconfusin. the president claims he likes dr. fauci and knows nothing about this opposition research. who would it be from and why? who does it benefit to go after dr. anthony fauci and have the american people not listen to important health guidelines? >> well, it's nobody. it's really crazy, stephanie. because as the doctor said, the

virus pay ns no attention to re or blue, it's just trying to replicate itself. it's going to continue doing that, whether we do anything or not, no matter what we do. so when the president continues to say, as he said again today, the only reason we had all of these cases is because we're doing all this testing, it's just transparentally nuts. these cases would exist whether or not we knew about them. it is only through testing, it is only through knowing what the virus is doing that we can hope to control it and hope to contain it, hope to tamp it down until we get a vaccine. it is -- so the president is actively working against the interest of public health. and that's a real tragedy. >> to that very point, doctor, in order to slow the spread, you

need this three-pronged approach where government, business, and the american people work together, coordinate, and address our behavior and how we protect people. the fact that the president, at this moment, has gone all in on the country and schools reopening, what does that mean for the spread? >> so it is going to make it much more difficult for us to control this virus, unfortunately. we are looking at individual states that are doing a good job. we have looking at grassroots organizations which has formed organically to try to fill the void left by the federal government. but gosh, we really need a coordinated response, because not only does this virus not respect red or blue, it does not respect state boarders, right? people are traveling. i live in rhode island. people go to massachusetts and connecticut to live and work. we need to work together in order to have that add get testing to get protective equipment where it needs to go.

and if we don't get this virus under control, we are not going to be able to rebuild the economy. we started to see things shutting down before the worst of the pandemic in march and april, because people were scared. if the president really wants to see businesses reopen and see jobs come back, the very best thing he could do is to support a very robust public health approach across all 50 states. >> well, the only way we're going to get through this is together. doctor, eugene, thank you so much. i want to talk about one of those hard erest hit states tha are seeing businesses close again. let's bring in congresswoman jackie speier of california, seeing a surge of cases that are overwhelming their hospitals. over 300,000 cases and over 7,000 deaths as of this morning. congresswoman, what is your reaction to this surge? your governor, your mayors across some of your largest

cities have been addressing this in an aggressive way from the beginning. >> well, we have. we were the first state and the first area in the bay area to shut down in march. as we started to open, we saw an increase in the cases take place, so the governor has shown great leadership and guts frankly to say today that we are now shutting down all bars, and restaurant dining. if necessary, we'll go back to a total shutdown, because lives are at stake here. >> then what can you do, what will the state of california do or the federal government to economically support california? we are seeing small businesses close every single day, and i realize they need to from a health perspective, but economically, it's disastrous. >> well, it is. and ppp has been a lifesaver to many of the small businesses in

my district, and they have been able to withstand the first surge. but what we've got to remember is that we are not drive thing virus, we are riding it. and as someone once said to me, you guys show a great deal of humility with this virus. we do not have all the answers, and as we have seen in states like florida and arizona, the actual incidence of those has dropped from those age 65 to 35 in florida. and in arizona, it's a much younger population. so it is like it's not following state lines or party affiliation, it is not following age groups, either. it's because there has been a lack of a national strategy. and the president has to take full responsibility for the fact that we don't have a national strategy. we have not invoked the defense production act, so we're scraping around for reagents and

nasal swabs and can't test properly. and then we've got to change our testing strategy. dr. osterholm talks about testing the right people for the right purposes. if we don't do that, we're going to be in this for a very long time. >> the c.a.r.e.s. act did a lot for people economically. the heroes act got bounced by republicans. they didn't want to play ball. they said let's see how things go. this month, those unexpanded unemployment benefits are going to run out. those businesses saved by ppp, they're going to shut down again. what needs to be done from congress' standpoint to keep people afloat? >> well, we've got to pass the heroes act. i think t-- there's heavy layofs

in state and local governments. that's going to raise unemployment. we already see the airline industries talking about layoffs in october. even after sthi eve received an injection of much aid -- after they've refed an injection of much aid from the federal government. we've got to use the money in a way that's going to be effective to keep companies and small businesses afloat and people employed. >> eugene, how do you see any or all of this impacting the election which is less than five months away? we just lost him. congresswoman, with the election on your mind, what are your constituents telling you? >> my constituents are a combination of angry and frustrated and scared. and i think that's probably true across the country.

we sneneed a leader who is goino have the level of confidence that we can trust them. and unfortunately, the president brings us into this parallel universe where he talks about hydroxychloroquine as if that's going to be a solution, and we find out that can hurt people and create heart problems. he said anyone can get a test that wants a test. that isn't the case. he's never invoked the defense production act. so we're scraping for the testing agents that we need. so there's a total lack of leadership on the federal level. so you have states doing very different things. and that's why we are not being able to rein in this virus. you look at china, four times as much in population, and they're fairing much better because they have shown the kind of discipline necessary to address this.

>> this administration has said over and over they want to see all schools open. we're already seeing some very large school districts in the state of california saying we are not going back to school this fall. betsy devos said kids have to go back to school or they're at risk of losing federal funding. unless the federal government does something significant from an economic perspective to help schools reopen, how can they possibly do it? as it stands right now, 92% of education funding comes at a state level. california cannot afford to reconfigure all of their schools and get kids back there with the government only putting aside $13 billion. it's a $100 billion task. >> so, you know, the federal government spends very little money on the k-12 education system. most of it does come from the state. i think what we're seeing in california, probably across the country, you've got about a third of the teaching population that is at risk, high risk.

you've got another third that is over the age of 40 and concerned about their well-being. and we still don't know enough about the virus. i was just on a conference call with some epidemiologists who said small children probably do not actually pass the virus on very extensively. but once you get into the high school age group, they act much like adults and could, in fact, pass on the virus. so, again, we don't know enough, but we do know that we've got to keep our children safe. we've got to engage them in school again, and whether it's going in for two or three days a week, i think they do need the socialization that comes when they're in a classroom, and we certainly need to protect our teachers, as well. so it's going to be a juggling act, no question about it. >> well, it's certainly a circus right now. congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us, jackie speier.

coming up, the new fallout in the roger stone case. no, he's not going to prison tomorrow. of course, the president commuted his president. and who president trump is talking about pardoning next. also, a stunning new poll shows former vice president biden over president trump in, wait for it, texas. that's right, texas. as democrats begin to talk about what they are calling a blue tsunami. a blue-nami. and rudy giuliani just wipes out trump's excuses for not releasing taxes. and guess what's here? bill nye the science guy. he's got you covered how to stay safe with the mask. i'm stephanie ruhle and you're watching "the beat" on msnbc. mc

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i think anyone who cares about the rule of law in this country is nauseated by the fact that the president has commuted the sentence of someone who willfully lied to congress, covered up for the president. other americans, different standard. friends of the president, accomplices of the president, they get off scot-free. >> accomplices of the president, did you hear what he said? that was intel chairman adam schiff reacting to the news that president trump commuted the sentence of his long-time adviser and friend roger stone. who was convicted for lying to congress and witness tampering, all related to the 2016

presidential election. stone was supposed to report to prison for more than three years starting tomorrow. >> the president has saved my life and he's given me the opportunity to fight for vindication, to fight for my exoneration. >> in a very, very rare rebuke, special counsel robert mueller responding to president trump's move in an op-ed, writing this -- >> there were many aides urging president trump not to save stone, including his own attorney general bill barr. barr discussed the sent tense and recommended clemency not be offered. other advisers telling him it was a very big mistake. remember, attorney general barr

has said this in his confirmation hearing last january. >> do you believe a president can lawfully issue a pardon in exchange for the recipient's promise not to incriminate him? >> no, that would be a crime. >> "the new york times" noting that president trump has done what even richard nixon didn't dare do. the watergate tapes revealing how dangerous everyone thought a pardon would be.

well, for all you loyal "beat" enthusiasts, you know this hour is about law and order. when we get back, i'm going to get into all this and more with john meechah and nick ackerman when we're back in 30 seconds. e. i said it was just 30 seconds. joining me now, presidential

historian john meecham. and nick ackerman who just wrote an op-ed on this piece and questioned roger stone in 1973. john, give us a history lesson. is this commutation different than others? >> i think it is. for the reasons even president nixon laid out there. it's as close -- here's a phrase, remember this from the thousand years ago, quid pro quo from a different galaxy. it's clearly a self-protective maneuver. the clemency power in the constitution is absolute. it was meant to be a check and a balance against other branches going too far. but in this case, you have a president who has insisted on the absolutist elements of his job and of his task. and has now used the

constitution specifically to protect himself. >> but that's the thing, nick, even if it's the absolutist elements, the president is allowed to do it. so while he may be highly criticized or it stinks to the high heavens, is there anything anyone can do about it? >> well, unfortunately, nobody can do anything about it. but i would argue that this power is limited. it can't be that a president of the united states can grant clemency to somebody who is his own co-conspirator in which he has an obvious conflict of interest. the problem is, no court has ever confronted this issue, and no court is ever going to confront this issue with respect to roger stone because there is no special counsel or special prosecutor in place to contest this issue in the courts. and that is what i find to be the absolute shame of this situation, and what makes it so

different from watergate, where we were totally independent from the department of justice. we didn't have to answer to an attorney general. we didn't have to be worried about threatened to be fired every other day. we ran our own shop, what we investigated was far more expansive than what our robert mueller's team had. we looked at all the crimes, not just relating to the break-in at the watergate complex, but also to the coverup and lots of other crimes, including nixon's taxes, his treatment of demonstrators, his illegal campaign contributions. we covered the water front. unfortunately, robert mueller was really in a straitjacket on this one. >> but nick, even if it can't be philosophically, literally it is. the president did it. roger stone is not going to jail, he's not going to turn on the president. in fact, now that he's not, his loyalty to the president is

super charged. that's a win for the president. >> no question about it. but if there had been somebody in place right now, it's robert mueller's group who is still in place, they could actually challenge this through the courts. you certainly know that bill barr, the attorney general, is not going to do a thing about challenging donald trump's commutation. no way. and so you're right, we're left in a situation unlike watergate where we all believed that the system worked. here the system is broken. donald trump has gotten away with this time after time, and he's going to continue to get away with it with the two other individuals who are knowledgeable about the russian interference, that involves michael flynn and his campaign manager, manafort. he's got manafort out of prison. manafort's now at home. flynn, he's asked the judge to

drop the case, and there's going to be a legal battle over that. but essentially what president trump is doing is he's doing everything he can possibly do to make sure that anyone with any knowledge about this russian interference is going to keep silent, keep their mouths shut, and not point the finger at donald trump. >> john, bill barr has shown us he is willing to do a lot for this president, a lot that hurts his own reputation and credibility. but bill barr advised against this. does that tell you anything? >> just that he was speaking or writing at that particular moment. i think it was a little bit like in the most overused cliches, like being shocked there's gambling going on in the casino from "casablanca." president trump has never taken advice he didn't want to take, or certainly very rarely.

so i think there are quickly two things that are so fascinating about this moment. one is we have to remember what this is about. and nick alluded to it. this is about russian interference in our election. and president trump and others can say as much as they want, that it's a hoax. but history is like an iceberg. it's like illegal cases like that, too. you see part of it, but there's a whole lot of it underneath. roger stone is part of the stuff very much underneath. the other, to the mueller point, they're going to miss two opportunities this year, more or less. one was the ability to challenge the extent of the clemency power as nick mentioned. also, the question whether you can indict a sitting president. remember, the special prosecutor accepted that as a premise, and i think that one of the reasons we're seeing a lot of the interference and the prosecutorial offices beyond washington is there's still an

ambient anxiety in the highest levels of the government that they can't really control all of this. which tells you there's a lot of that iceberg under the surface. >> oof. icebe iceberg, dead ahead. also a line from a movie. thank you both. always better and smarter after speaking to both of you. ahead, president trump's personal lawyer rudy giuliani did it again. blowing up his number one client, where else, on live tv. this time on president trump's taxes. mya miley is with us next. but first, president trump's campaign has a problem in the state of texas and some are seeing a democratic tsunami coming. tic tsunami coming

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everything is bigger in texas, and president trump woke up to maybe a very big problem there. a new poll from "the dallas

morning news" has former vice president joe biden up five points over trump in texas. this is alarming. we know there is a very long way to go, but down five in a state as red as texas is not good news. democrats now sensing or hoping i should say for a democratic tsunami come this november. with senate gop candidates not mentioning trump in ads and not wanting to hug him tightly, concern about turning off more moderate voters, one gop senator saying trump will win because people will sort of forget the last six months. >> the stakes are very high in this election. but you know why i know we're going to win? because people remember how good their lives were in february. >> these last six months aren't over. we have five months to go, in texas for example is seeing a surge in coronavirus cases. amid all of this, there were reports that president trump is frustrated with his campaign manager and there are rumblings

of a possible shake up. joining us now margaret carlson and susan dellpurseio. susan, do you buy this poll? >> i buy it in the sense that i think people are upset with donald trump. i don't think it's necessarily going to be the case some november. the polling is interesting. it's very good news for joe biden for no other reason it's going to freak prumesident trum out. so he will have to shore up resources in states he's supposed to take. >> what do you think, margaret? >> well, i don't know if people are going to forget how many people died on donald trump's watch in the fall, especially because it's unlikely to be that much better as dr. fauci said, you know, we've ended up only be in the first phase, and look at california having to close again. i think that's going to be on voter's minds. and you know, as texas goes, so

goes the country. that would be a phenomenal switch. you know, north carolina is, the senator from north carolina just said, north carolina is in play, and democrats haven't won that since jimmy carter, if i'm right. it's been a while. and that's in play. where trump would have been having his big party until he moved it to florida. and i would watch, stephanie, those senators who aren't going, who are dropping out and not going, which is a real rebuke to president trump. he doesn't want that to happen. and i don't think charles grassley would be doing that if people didn't sense that trump was going to be a little -- was sinking a bit and could be a drag on some races. because in iowa, take iowa, where the challenger is beating joni ernst, and she just won the primary, theresa greenfield, president trump won that state by ten points and it's neck and neck.

>> susan, are these polling trends more about a rebuke of the president or voters changing their minds about him or changing demographics of voters in texas? >> well, it's a combination of things actually. i think it's one a reflection of the environment we're in. people now, this is unlike russia, this is unlike roger stone. this is in people's homes, their families, their children, their grandparents. this crisis, this pandemic is actually affecting people's jobs, the economy, and it's personal. those other things that we hate about president trump or some hate about president trump i should say, are down in washington. they're not the things that touch people right at home. and in texas, there is a shifting demographic. i do not think that texas is ready to go blue yet. it's definitely moving purple, but i think it's a bit too

early. and i think at this point, biden has a responsibility to win. he doesn't have a responsibility to run the table. maybe in the second term, that's what you do if you're really up like ronald reagan was. but this is a -- he's trying to beat the incumbent. you don't take chances. all he needs to do is win michigan and florida, and it's game over, literally. that gets him to 270. that has to be his game. so look at michigan. look at wisconsin. pennsylvania should be his. president trump won florida with 1.2% of the vote. that's where biden should be focused. his job is to win. it's not to expand the party, it's not to be the leader of the party, it is to become the next president of the united states. and you do that by getting to 270. getting yourself over 300 really doesn't make much of a difference, because he's already pretty secure that he will get the popular vote. >> and stephanie -- >> "the washington post"

reports -- yes? >> i was just going to say michigan is only 10,000 votes. and that's a few pilates classes from suburban women. this virus is in everybody's house. it's their kids going to school or not back to school. so michigan is gone, pennsylvania, my hometown, is about 30,000 votes, that's gone. biden doesn't even have to be as ahead as much as he is ahead by all the polls now to be winning back those states. but you go ahead, stephanie. i didn't mean to interrupt. >> the president at this point, according to "the washington post," has made 20,000 false or misleading claims. when he was running in 2016, he didn't have to run against his former political record. he didn't have one. but now he's three plus years in. what do you think matters to voters?

>> you know, the astonishing thing is that he's trying to run not on his record, and as an outsider, like you know, he doesn't have all this to answer for. when in fact he does. you know, he's throwing punches that are landing back on him, like gratuitous mistakes, like going after dr. anthony fauci. that's no win for him. and on the one hand, you have trump insisting with our own eyes what we can see isn't true, that the virus is disappearing, and fauci, very delicately saying no, it's not. and everything fauci, except for one thing, which trump with the oppo research made a point of, which is he once said we didn't have to wear masks and he said at the time, all of the information was it didn't really help. now we've learned that it does. but be that as it may, you cannot put up a man with 20,000 lies against a man with no lies.

but that's how trump is going to play it. he's still going to find people to go after. but it's going to ricochet back on him, because his record is bad, and his targets are not easy. >> susan, you said joe biden should not try to run the table, he shouldn't get cute here. he should just focus on the swing states and bring it home. however some democrats say he should go for it. famd y and if you look at his economic plan he put out last week, there's lot of talk that is similar to great america great again, buy america, produce america, doing things that president trump swore he would do. so is joe biden trying to go for it and get manufacturing america? >> well, i understand why people want him to do it. now, that kind of message, what it does, and he should continue, will help the folks running for senate. and there is a chance to flip a

couple of seats. we look at arizona, we look at north carolina, maine, these are places that the incumbents are in big trouble. and a message like joe biden's will work. but how much resources should he put to it? until we get closer, maybe if we're looking at things in october and they're just blowout numbers and there's tons of money at hand, maybe you start playing there. but he should stay on that message. that's a fantastic message. what people are looking for. they want hope and to see a plan of action. that's what biden is giving him. >> susan, margaret, always great to have two extraordinary women on tv. up ahead, cleanup in aisle giuliani. president trump's lawyer and long-time friend just demolished president trump's tax excuse. the excuse the president has been making over and over on why he can't release his taxes, rudy

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president trump's personal attorney rudy giuliani, he did it again. he reemerged on national tv, haven't seen him in a while, and he blew up his number one client's defense. this time it was president trump's excuse to keep tax returns hidden. and in is a pattern for rudy giuliani. remember when he told sean hannity about payments to stormy

daniels? >> having something to do with paying some stormy daniels woman $130,000? i mean, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. that money was not campaign money. sorry, i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know. you a factw that you don't know. the president repaid it. >> oh, i didn't know that he did. >> yeah. >> yep. then he admitted on live tv a quid pro quo plot with ukraine. >> did you ask the ukraine to investigate joe biden. >> no, actually, the only thing i asked about joe biden is to get to the bottom of how it was that u senn ko dismissed the case against -- >> you did ask you ukraine to look into biden? zwl zbl of course i did. >> you said you didn't. >> of course i did. and now, there's a new one.

this is president trump's excuse not to reveal his tax returns. >> i don't mind releasing, i'm under a routine audit and it will be released and as soon as the audit's finished it will be released. >> while i'm under audit, i won't do it. if i wasn't, i would. i have no problem with it. >> under audit. but now, check out what former mayor giuliani says about those so-called audits. >> they have no reason to believe there's anything wrong with his tax returns. i mean all these tax returns have been by and large maybe not the last one, all have been audited. all of them have been either passed on or settled. >> hmm. joining me now, former sdny civil prosecutor. let's take the outrage, the embarrassment and put it over here. what legally happens now, if those audits are done? >> well, let's start at the

beginning, stephanie. there was never a solid argument to with hold the tax returns based on a supposed audit. that's just not a thing. so i just want to start there. that was an excuse that donald trump used. it was more about the spin cycle than the washing machine. this is about what his tax return said, no whether there was some auditing. number two, is issue here is especially when we're looking at the criminal proceeding in the manhattan district attorney's office, is about whether the trump organization did not properly and lawfully account for the payments, the repayments to michael cohen for the stormy daniels hush money. so that is not, there's no audit issue there. the it's like how did the

president trump orb book it. donald trump has been using every leaver available to him to prevent any transparency into financial transactions, tax returns and other financial documents and he's simply has not been behaving as a man who doesn't have something to hide. he's been behaving as a man who's got everything to lose. juliani's just been the perfect witness for the prosecution, which is not a good look in your defense attorney. >> except of course, it's worked for the president. i haven't seen his taxes. have you? >> nope. but you know, what's worked is the fact that you know, the political stall tactics, the fact that the republican party has not called this for what it is. just simply outrageous. we just haven't had a u.s. president or even a candidate for president refuse to release these basic financial, just his tax returns. yeah, there are other financial documents that there are

arguments about, but there's plenty of evidence including what giuliani himself has said. funneling payments through the law firm. well funneling the payments through the law firm is one of reasons why there's a credible investigation into whether or not there was a violation of new york law, so everything points to you can't stop a criminal proceeding. the supreme court has said you can't stop the criminal proceeding. it's going to happen any way, but there's no question that donald trump, as he has done before holding office and during office, has been very aggressive about using the courts as delay tactics. this one is going to come home. these chickens are going to come home to roost one way or another because it's a criminal proceeding because it's in manhattan, because it's not federal. >> and what do you think's going to happen with that because there is a hearing this week on his taxes with the manhattan da.

>> yeah. look, i think eventually, the manhattan da's going to get those records. donald trump's attorneys can certainly tie it up longer just by fighting the subpoena, but they don't really have a leg to stand on legally in the supreme court made that fairly clear. he only has any of the arguments against a subpoena that you or i would have. there's no special protection for the president. that means that i don't see a legitimate reason for a judge to say that the grand jury cannot have and see those materials. >> and the clock is stiticking. great to have you here. thank you so much. we'll be right back. we've got more to cover. l be ri. we've got more to cover. everything's stuck in the drawers! i'm sorry! oh, jeez. hi. kelly clarkson. try wayfair! oh, ok. it's going to help you, with all of... this! yeah, here you go. thank you! oh, i like that one!

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that does it for me. i will see you right back here tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. eastern and my dear friend, steve kornacki, is up next. and good evening. i'm steve kornacki in new york and america hit a grim new milestone over the weekend. reaching record levels of coronavirus cases and deaths across 20 states including and beyond the sun belt. states from virginia to alaska, all reported new records of infections over the past week. florida broke the national record of confirmed cases in a day. they reported 15,000 cases in a single day and according to reuters, if florida were a country, it would rank fourth in the worldhe