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tv   The Beat With Ari Melber  MSNBC  December 25, 2020 2:00am-3:00am PST

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welcome to "the beat," i'm ari. we have a special show for you tonight. from impeachments and protests to pandemics and elections, we want to go through some of the big moments this year, including on "the beat" from the guests to the dad jokes to, of course, the lyrics and even some awkward moments. we're going to have on the comics who have made sense of all this and helped us laugh through some tough times, plus their cultural insights on what was for many a tragicomedy throughout the year. we have a special fallback never been aired before with michael phelps and we begin with the story dominating even the final month of 2020, and it previews
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what may lie ahead for donald trump in 2021. what legal exposure he will face after he leaves office in january. this is our special report on the criminal legal exposure that potentially faces donald trump when he leaves office. big picture, most presidents depart with less pressing concerns. they're focused on their memoirs, the next chapter of their careers, those presidential libraries that they tend to fund raise for. very few, when you think about it, actually leave with this active talk about potential prosecution. that was the case for nixon, who cut off the very real risk of potential federal prosecution by engineering that pardon from his successor. now you have donald trump, for the past few weeks, really, stoking some similar intrigue by talking up the more extreme measure of trying to pardon himself. now, why does donald trump even
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think he needs a federal pardon? only he knows. and to be as fair as possible, the evidence suggests it would not be for russian collusion, for example, because after all, the scrutiny on this issue, remember, the mueller probe did not conclude that donald trump criminally conspired or coordinated with russia. now, a self-pardon would not address any potential state issues in new york or elsewhere, but as with so many trump era debates and scandals, this topic, so drenched in the implication of guilt and crime, it's been stoked by trump himself, by talking up the pardons for himself and his family. when the supreme court has long held that taking a pardon is like confessing a crime, everyone knows now how bad this sounds. on the other hand, these are not easy calls. there's renewed debate about how high the bar should be for prosecuting a former president. i can tell you that people around biden have already been suggesting the very idea of going after an ex-president concerns them. while joe biden's also stressed the thing you're supposed to say, that he will not try to meddle in the d.o.j.'s process.
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there are also some prosecutors openly advocating for investigating and potentially charging trump, including a very famous one, former mueller deputy, andrew weissman. but as we get into this tonight, i want to be clear. this is serious stuff. this debate cannot just be held in the abstract. if the nation, after what we've just lived through, is going to consider a legal accountability for an ex-president, the rule of law requires this follow only evidence, not partisanship, and that actually is important as we think about this debate. i don't think we've heard the last of it, because if we're going to do this right as a nation, it can't be some vague discussion of just prosecuting trump or any politician. that doesn't get you very far. the question under the rule of law has to be about if there is evidence that a person, in this case, soon to be ex-president trump, committed a federal crime, and does that merit prosecution? if you take just an example, should the nation hold the very first trial of an ex-president
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for jaywalking or defacing a mailbox? i mean, those are crimes. most legal experts think the bar has got to be higher than that. so tonight, right now, to do this hopefully in an informed way, we turn to one of the most important examples, a specific federal case where donald trump does have exposure where a crime has already been proven and convicted, and one that also implicating our democracy, which suggests larger issues than, well, the mailbox thing i said or the jaywalking. i'm referring to conviction of donald trump's long-time lawyer michael cohen for providing donald trump's payments in exchange for the silence of stormy daniels. remember, cohen went to jail for that crime, among others. federal prosecutors said it was all to benefit trump and i can tell you we have a very relevant guest for this discussion. a man who would be a key witness in any such case, michael cohen himself. cohen was convicted for his work on behalf of individual one, donald trump. and if trump was a knowing party
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to that crime, legally, he could still face potential prosecution, i mean, technically, he could, because the deadline has not yet run for that kind of campaign finance violation. now, you may recall this whole case, it began with a secret. donald trump paying daniels to hide their encounters which date back to 2006. and the legal problems came when trump and cohen acted around the 2016 election. and there's stronger evidence here than in most stories. that is to say, if you're talking to people about, oh, should trump be charged or not, in some of those stories or cases, even the tax issues, they can be vague. but here, mueller's prosecutors had inside players exposing what was happening. we even heard from some of those key witnesses in realtime. this was during the open mueller probe in our reporting on the beat. >> in your fbi interview with mueller's team, you were asking about payments to women? >> they were asking if i knew anything about it. >> they were asking if you knew anything about payments to women.
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>> but i think it's pretty obvious they're looking into this. you have now this $130,000 payment that was made after the election from campaign to trump org. >> that turned out to be quite relevant because mueller team -- mueller's team, they thought there actually was enough evidence there to pursue and what he and others were talking about. they also, carefully, as a legal matter, decided it appeared beyond their jurisdiction, so they handed it to new york investigators who ultimately secured cohen's cooperation. and that's why we have these public facts from that probe, which could be very relevant when trump leaves office. this was, of course, overseen by the trump d.o.j., finding cohen made payments to women who claimed to have an affair with individual one and they found cohen's intent was to influence the election. that is bad because while there can be a defense that such payments were, say, separate from an election crime, committed for some other reason, cohen, the one who arranged them, already admitted it under oath and the evidence shows trump was in on it. cohen says he did all of it at the direction of individual one.
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and trump confirmed some of that by paying for it with those reimbursements, which came through, some of them while he was president. with his company involved in a suspicious series of payments, $35,000 a pop over the course of a year. this is a lot of hard evidence. now, as far as the courts are concerned, it's a felony committed with and for the benefit of one person, individual one. and everyone knows who that is. >> yet last fall, i pled guilty in federal court to felonies for the benefit of, at the direction of and in coordination with individual number one. and for the record, individual number one is president donald j. trump. >> cohen testifying he went to jail for executing trump's plan.
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>> the president of the united states thus wrote a personal check for the payment of hush money as part of a criminal scheme to violate campaign finance laws. and i am going to jail, in part, because of my decision to help mr. trump hide that payment from the american people before they voted a few days later. >> you hear that phrase, hide that payment and hide the underlying conduct and hide it for a long time. now, by today's lights, it may all sound familiar. remember, investigators, if they pursue a case like this, could bear down on how trump continued to cover up, continued to lie about this. here he was on air force one in 2018. >> mr. president, did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no.
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>> then why did michael cohen say this if there was no truth to the allegations. >> you'd have to ask michael cohen. michael's my attorney, and you'll have to ask michael. >> do you know where he got the money to make that payment? >> no, i don't know. >> false. donald trump knew because cohen arranged a cash advance. we have the evidence. and trump paid for it partly through the trump organization. you see it there. you see his signature. this is what they call receipts. even rudy giuliani came out to admit it later that year. >> something to do with paying some stormy daniels woman $130,000? i mean, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal and the president repaid it. >> oh. i didn't know -- he did? >> yep. >> there's no campaign finance law. >> zero. >> up a little bit. now, does all of this make donald trump a culpable conspirator? that's a tough question. any charges or trial of trump would still be pitting that string of reactions you just saw there from a lying denial by
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trump to rudy giuliani's, he did it but it's legal, it would pit all of that against the evidence, which includes the financials, the receipts, the legal rules, to witnesses like cohen and daniels. >> suddenly, people are reaching out to me again, offering me money. large amounts of money. and then i get the call. i think i have the best deal for you. >> from your lawyer? >> yeah. >> it's a $130,000 in kind contribution by cohen to the trump campaign. and if he does this on behalf of his client, the candidate, that is a coordinated, illegal in-kind contribution by cohen for the purpose of influencing the election. >> okay. that's a big deal. that last voice you heard there is a republican election law expert laying out trump's potential legal exposure. because the law matters and the evidence matters.
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now, reporting on this case, you'll hear from many different people with direct knowledge or who were involved in some part of this. and they come back to the fact that if this was a crime, and cohen convicted -- was convicted of the crime, and cohen was taking orders to commit this crime, then do we all just move on or do we deal with the fact that this crime, committed in public, convicted in public, that someone went to jail for, actually raises a question about whether the ultimate guilt goes higher? >> donald trump was complicit in this conduct. he should face significant liability for the conduct. >> the weight of evidence will continue to get greater, but it's so overwhelming now. >> do you think it's nefarious? >> of course it's nefarious. >> the campaign finance violation, which was donald trump directing, this is the finding of the prosecutors, directing his lawyer to pay hush money to corrupt an american election. >> was "the national enquirer" acting as the arm of donald trump and michael cohen and if so, was there something wrong
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with that? >> we strongly suspect they were. >> can you prove it? >> those parties said they had lots of proof. let's be clear. some fared better than others. mr. avenatti, he was ultimately indicted on other, unrelated crimes for which he awaits trial. and in fairness, there are other legal reasons that this kind of case against donald trump might not hold up if pursued. take the relatively unsympathetic example of former senator john edwards. indicted on a similar fact pattern, charged on a similar theory, but he avoided conviction, making the argument that whatever bad things he did, the goal was not violating the campaign finance laws. he was acquitted. now, the rule of law requires putting one's views of donald trump as a person or as the leader of the ideology of trumpism, if you want to do this fairly, you actually have to put that aside, and you have to seriously reckon with whether there is a crime so serious that a ex-president ought to be put on trial.
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now, some legal experts point to edwards as the kind of case that should give pause to pursuing trump under the evidence you just saw. and then second and separately, more broadly, there are real questions about the costs and risks of potentially normalizing the prosecution of ex-presidents. is this the right direction? would this be the right precedent? we know the office of president has shielded donald trump, like any other president. it is a constitutional fact that he becomes a citizen again, not the president. potential prosecution becomes technically more legally possible. but should it be on the table for this alleged offense? we get into all of that and more with the perfect guest on these issues, the man in the middle, my interview with michael cohen in just 30 seconds. heavy, overwhelming scents? we get it. introducing febreze light. it eliminates odors... with no heavy perfumes... in light scents you'll love. new febreze light. sprinting past every leak
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in our softest, smoothest fabric. she's confident, protected, her strength respected. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. i'm joined now by donald trump's former attorney, michael cohen, also host of the podcast mea culpa, and author of the book, "disloyal." thank you for having this conversation. >> how you doing, ari, good to see you. >> good to see you. i'm all right. let's start with the basics. did you commit this crime with donald trump's knowledge and direction the whole time and should he be charged in your view? >> so, i pled guilty, as i'm sure you're aware, little more
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than a year and a half ago. and it was done, as i had stated before the house oversight committee, as well as to many other authorities, other agencies, that it was done not only at the direction of but in coordination with donald j. trump. so the answer is, if, in fact, that i'm required to plead guilty for this crime, then so is the president. >> to be clear, although there were other allegations that you addressed, on this particular one, did you benefit personally from arranging this for donald trump, or was he the main beneficiary of this arrangement? >> well, he was the only beneficiary of this arrangement. i also want to say that, as we're talking about potential criminal prosecution here, that's not really the issue that donald trump is most concerned about. what he's most concerned about is the irs. he's concerned about issues that's going to show that he does not pay his fair taxes, that he's tax evaded, that there's bank fraud, that there's
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potential insurance fraud, et cetera, et cetera. so, that's really what donald trump is more concerned about, because it doesn't only just affect him as the stormy daniels hush money payments did, but it also affects his children. and the trump organization, which of course is his financial, you know, cash cow. >> in the way they handled these payments, which i just reminded the audience how much we know about that, we know a lot more than usual, given the range of probes, do you see any other potential legal problems beyond the main one of the campaign finance violation? >> meaning what? >> for example, the way it was routed through the trump org, do you think there was anything else shady in the payment that went to ms. daniels? >> okay, much better question. now i get what you're going with this. the answer to that is yes. >> michael, as a lawyer, sometimes you have to fix the other lawyer's questions. so thank you. >> yes. that's true. sorry for that. this isn't the deposition, though. so, the answer to that is, yes.
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and it's yes, because they actually hid the payment instead of marking it down as an expense, they marked it down as a legal expense, so it became a tax deductible tryst, which i'm certain the irs is not interested or the u.s. taxpayer is not interested in paying for donald trump's, you know, affairs. >> so, they not only hid the payment, your contention and your evidence, you're directly involved in it, is that they then lied to the federal government about what the payment was? >> yes, they marked it down as legal expense, when it clearly was not a legal expense. >> yeah. so, those are a series of questions about what you went through. i want to ask you a question about being incarcerated and it's a difficult thing. we've talked about it before, but you went through this in a way, but we've all gone through these four years and we all have different views but i'm curious, if you could let us in on this, did you ever feel and think
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about, while you were incarcerated, inside prison, away from your family, the idea that at least on this crime, you were in there for something you did for him and he hadn't been held accountable for it? >> yeah, that actually haunted me on a daily basis, and as i think i have said to you before, it doesn't just break your heart to be away from your family, especially because of somebody else's dirty deeds, it shreds your soul each and every day and you only get ten minutes maximum a day to speak to your family. well, i have a wife, and then i have -- my son was at school out of state and my daughter, so i would get, what, three minutes to speak to each of them, at best, a day, and any time, god forbid, there's an issue that needed to be addressed, unfortunately, you just don't have the time on the telephone to do it. so, it's really an ugly situation. i should not have been there based upon his dirty deeds, and since i did, i pled guilty for a crime that i was certainly involved with, so is the president. >> michael, the flip side of all
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this, and i'm going to have experts get into it but i wanted to give you the benefit of addressing it. there are many people who say whatever one's criticisms are of this president and this period of time, the united states has not historically prosecuted ex-presidents, and there are many reasons not to do it, including the ordeal of putting the country through it. your response to that argument, both as someone involved or as someone who's, of course, studied the law and separation of powers and as you know, there are legitimate arguments against that. your response. >> so, you could play it either way. first and foremost, you know, the biggest problem of incarcerating a president is the fact that the president has national security information embedded in his head. now, of course, we all know that donald trump didn't spend a lot of time at briefings and so on, short of whatever they could write on a piece of paper with a crayon, right, he didn't really
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spend much time in these briefings, but he still has national security information in his head, and that makes him obviously a danger to be placed in, you know, an institution. well, here's the flip side to that. donald trump does not care, as we all know, about anyone or anything other than himself. well, if that's the case, is he more dangerous on the outside, because donald trump will sell, there's no doubt in my mind, he will sell a national security information to the highest bidder in order to develop a piece of property in iraq, you know? he doesn't care. he is prepared to talk about, which he did with putin, right, unsolicited, he just gives away information. so, is he more dangerous on the inside or on the outside? but you could play it either way. i think he's a danger no matter
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where you put him. >> a very interesting and, michael, this is one of those threads, and that's why we wanted to show the reporting on it, that everyone can move on and forget. i know you and your family haven't forgotten. i appreciate you coming on the back on "the beat." i hope you'll come back, sir. >> any time, ari. thank you so much for having me. coming up, some special guests on the end of this trump era, plus where we go from here. and our favorite moments from "the beat" across all of 2020. stay with us. the first fda-approved medication of its kind, tremfya® can help adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis uncover clearer skin that can last. most patients who saw 90% clearer skin at 28 weeks stayed clearer through 48 weeks. in another study, the majority of tremfya® patients saw 90% clearer skin at 3 years. serious allergic reactions may occur. tremfya® may increase your risk of infections
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donald trump's long-running denial of his defeat has been both dangerous and at times ridiculous. a new source of satire and comedy for late night hosts, definitely in those weeks after the election was resolved. in fact, we spoke with comedian amber ruffin, the first black woman to write for late night talk show in the united states and cornell belcher about the dynamic. >> senator kamala harris was elected vice president on saturday, and though the economy is not quite back on track, the airbrush t-shirt industry is thriving.
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>> yeah, it's your man, lil doof and you know what i always say. anyone who makes me pay a lot of taxes can't have my vote. >> oh, donald trump, you raggedy bastard. ♪ go back to your country ♪ go back to africa >> amber ruffin joins us now, actress, comedian and host. congratulations. and thank you for being here. famed obama pollster cornell belcher back in the mix. let's start with one of the jokes we just heard there, rappers who want low taxes for trump. how important is it to you to have a new platform with representation, inclusion, you can come at these issues and also why is it that so many trump issues are as effectively dealt with punchlines as a serious debate? >> because everything he says is absolutely absurd, and when a person who has any respect whatsoever talks about donald
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trump, they sound ridiculous. but when a comedian talks about donald trump, they sound perfectly fine because everything he does is ridiculous. >> well, that goes right to where we're living right now. i mean, we don't even have to go back. you're part of the, as i mentioned, the creative team behind seth meyers. he had a joke, you know, this week that was, you know, trump tweets, biden won, and trump tweets why he won't concede. when you say someone won, you are, in terms of english, making the concession to their victory. it's like we're just in this orbit for as long as we're in it, amber. >> yeah. it's ridiculous. and i just -- i love to get lost in thinking about what must he
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be surrounded by to behave this way? who is there, and what are they hearing? can they hear him when he said saying these things? does it say it and then he tweets it? is it new every time? i mean, if someone in your presence said something like this, you would grab them and you would whisper, oops, i think you need to go home. >> right. might need a nap or a rest or it's not all functioning and we have some reporting on that. there are white house reporters who say that he requests printed copies of his most retweeted tweets, so they go print them on a printer, bring them out -- this is real. and he looks at those, which i actually think speaks to, you know, cornell, that's only a few beats away from one of the challenges of the internet, which is if we're all just looking at our own likes or whatever, sometimes we become more extreme versions of ourselves. it's not really a question, cornell, but take it. >> well, first of all, i'm a big fan of amber, but i have no idea why i'm on the segment. i know, ari, you think polling is like comedy, but i think comedy's more reputable than polling these days.
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>> wait, amber -- >> i have no idea. >> he doesn't know why he's here. amber, tell him why he's here. >> you're here because you have the facts, and i have the goofiness. >> yeah, we didn't want to go solo goofy. we put a political person with the funny person. that's why. >> because cornell, if it was just me, people would change the channel. but then i say something goofy and then you say something normal but it's all gone crazy, because you said that people print out his tweets. ari. >> facts. facts. i'll give you another -- >> ari, i need to double down. i need to double down on the dark night because you know, as they say, madness is kind of like gravity. all it takes is a little push. >> just a push. i remember that line. >> and that's what we have right now. we have madness in our political system right now. and hopefully that will change soon.
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>> i'll flip it on you. the great estelle says sometimes love takes just a push. so, we could go mad or we could return back. amber, you knew this was going to happen. >> yes, i know you. >> i got something to play for both of you, which is when donald trump -- although he has his supporters and we've had them on the program and many of them find him, you know, edgy or they say he's funny but it's certainly, i think, fair to say, it's a harsher, rougher style. barack obama, as a president, used his power in a different way. it was -- the joking felt somehow a lot more warm. this was one of his classics that everyone in politics can remember because it's funny if you know the characters. take a look. >> some folks still don't think i spend enough time with
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congress. why don't you get a drink with mitch mcconnell, they ask. really? why don't you get a drink with mitch mcconnell? >> amber, funny but not mean. >> it's funny. i mean, if you're mitch mcconnell, it doesn't feel great. >> okay. >> but mitch mcconnell is lying in the bed he made, so it's not totally terrible, yeah. >> yeah, and it's not mean-spirited. it's more like, because mitch mcconnell's thing is not -- he's not like a proud socializing beer drinker. he's more of just, like, getting judges confirmed. i'm out of time. amber, i hope you'll come back. >> they printed the tweets out. >> that's her takeaway.
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that's what she took from this. everyone check out the show on peacock, "amber ruffin." my special guest cornell belcher in a segment for reasons he didn't understand. we also heard all about this comic fallout from this election with former daily show correspondent larry wilmore and former dnc chairman michael steele. >> it is a tragicomedy. we have to make jokes about it but it is tragic. and like i'll tell you what is the thing that is really not funny, ari, is the people who believe the disinformation that is being put out there, especially about covid, and people who are dying while they're continuing to believe in all this disinformation. that is not funny. it is a dereliction of duty as far as i'm concerned, by all of those people in charge, especially the top one. >> yeah. right. especially people pushing that. you know, we were having fun
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looking back at when washington really had to grapple with the larry wilmore experience, which was at the correspondents dinner. it's a huge honor, as i think viewers know. you're up there. how often does anyone get to stand up there while a sitting president, that was president obama, watches you do your thing? let's take a look at a couple moments which are right on point as far as the political commentary. here we go. >> yeah. >> nice to be here, though, the white house correspondents dinner or as you know they're going to call it next year, donald trump presents a luxurious evening. i want to thank mitch mcconnell for not blocking my nomination. seriously you got to give mitch mcconnell credit. at this point, he could block lebron james. he's unbelievable. >> how do you update that joke when he's stolen more supreme court seats since then? >> i know. call me negrodamus, ari, i don't know how i knew all these things ahead of time.
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but mitch mcconnell has always been the same. it's easy to do jokes about mitch mcconnell, that kind of last forever, that have no expiration date which is why, by the way, i wish he were a democrat. that's why he's good at his job. you know, i think -- i'm sure the democrats are probably jealous of mitch mcconnell too because he does exactly what his constituents want him to do. put in conservative judges. and he's very successful at it. >> and larry, people got to wonder, i wonder, we got to ask, is it different doing the whole bit in front of the sitting president? >> oh, god, it's so bizarre. i mean, when you're right next to him, all kinds of things go through -- first of all, you want to make him laugh, you know? and you don't want to just -- you don't want to just go crazy and just have something else take over, like, larry, just stay calm, don't do anything weird. you know, don't make any sudden movements. because you don't know what's
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going to happen. but you do want to try to make him laugh, but who knows? i did this one joke about him dropping drones and i kind of felt him go, oh, like it was this -- you could feel, like, the disapproval just wafting over you, like pepe le pew. it was downhill from there. but at that moment, i stopped caring. am i wrong? you know, it just went on from there. >> now, hang with me. michael, you know why you're in this segment, right? >> i just go for the ride, my friend. i've learned with you to do that. and hanging out with larry is always fun, so i figured no matter how this worked out, i'm going to have a good time. >> amen. >> we just had michael on my show. >> yes. >> i love that. we think these things through and larry, whether you remember it or not, michael steele knows his way around, at least what we consider a lower rent version of late night. he stayed up late with us on all those debate nights and even busted out his own muppet from
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your same daily show, which breaks the rule that says you can't talk to your own muppet live on cable news, michael. >> yeah, exactly. look. i have to tell you, larry and the ladies and gentlemen over at the daily show beat the crap out of me for two years on the program, and it was such fun to go back and watch, and larry's so right about the humor. it is the great leveler. it really is. and it tells us -- and at important times and sometimes very serious moments, you know, try to find a little bit of the humor in it, and guys like larry, they do that. they kind of reflect that instinctively. >> thank you, michael. >> seriously. and being the only black correspondent on that program, that's an important first step for the rest of us brothers out here who are looking for role models so you know, you play a double role here. >> god, michael, i hope to have a puppet of me some day. that's all i can say at this moment.
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>> well, that's the last question. we got -- we're looking at it now and he was with jon stewart. larry, msnbc viewers have come to know the many michael steeles. do you like better the original rnc chairman, the new michael steele who said that because of trump's leadership and record he was breaking with his party to endorse joe biden, or the third choice, the original muppet michael steele? >> i'm always going to prefer the muppet because the muppet has a type of facial hair that humans just can't achieve, you know? and it's fantastic. it's this fuzz that kind of -- it's coming at you, but it's kind of spreading out at the same time. see what i mean? it's like, it's just a beautiful type of thing. >> hold on. fact check. are you talking about the fuzz -- the blue fuzz or the actual mustache? >> yes. no, no, the mustache and the hair on top. all of it. i mean, you can't duplicate
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that. it's fantastic. >> no, you can't. >> michael's been -- >> i've tried. >> michael's been trying to duplicate that but he's
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