tv The Week With Joshua Johnson MSNBC January 16, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
part of the attack. thank you for joining us. i will see you tomorrow. and 7:00, an american voices exclusive with the women who run michigan. the state's governor, attorney general, and secretary of state will the be here. now, i hand it over to joshua johnson. >> that dating app story is the best thing i have heard all day. that is pretty awesome. that is -- i love it. between that and the conversation you're going to have tomorrow, you can't sleep on american voices. thanks. good to see you tonight. thanks for making time for us. tonight, the nation is on edge. state capitols are ramping up security braces for protests ahead of the inauguration of joe biden. from nbc news in washington, i'm joshua johnson. welcome to "the week." ♪♪
>> we're following breaking news tonight. capitol police arrested a virginia man at a security check point yesterday. the man flashed an inauguration credential they said was unauthorized. they found a handgun and more than 500 rounds of am nugs. meanwhile, the nib says it's increst gags will be foreign governments or individuals funded the right wing extremists that helped plan the january 6th riot. this comes of years of mounting ever dents that russia and other foreign adversaries tried to secretly support political extremists. no wonder at least 16 states have activated the national guards this weekend to help secure their capitols. here in washington, a new feature, a seven-foot nonscapible fence topped with bashed wire.
behind it, hundreds of armed guards men. the senate is preparing for the second impreachment trial of don't trump. sources say some of his allies will probably say a froel n his trial. the names thrown around are ohio congressman jim jordan and florida congressman matt gates. other possibilities ruely giuliani and law professor john eastman. both men have continuously pushed false claim of voter fraud around the election. mr. giuliani was spotted this afternoon leaving the white house around the same time as ivanka trump and jared kushner. we will slar your stories in the program and feel free to come
them coming. you can tweet us. we will put your questions to experts and lawmakers. let's begin with the latest on the train zigs of power. here is the latest we learned about president trump's plans for joe biden's inauguration day. according to a person involved in the planning, mr. trump has discussed recreating a pageantry used with a formal heads of state. they are tentative plans but president trump has made it clear to his staff that he wants a celebratory send off full of fanfare. joining us are allie and annie. let me start with the president's plans on wednesday. >> he is going to leave early in the morning, around 7:30 a.m.
this is unusual. usually the outgoing president is at the capitol, in a luncheon and is there for the transfer of power at 12:01:00 p.m. he will not be interacting or attending any of the inauguration events. all of that pomp and circumstance is tentatively planned for -- for st. andrew, where air force one departs from in washington. it's unclear there was a discussion of holding a rally for him with a lot of supporters that is not happening. his aides have been trying to under score there is a lot of welcome home celebrations awaiting him in florida. they are trying to give him a sense of an exit that has very little to do with reality. reality, he is exiting with an approval rating that is an
all-time low for him and a historic low for an outgoing president in the history of modern polling. he is about to face a senate trial. his second impeachment but he's going to see images and happiness and welcome home mr. president signs that will make him feel like he is living in a the alternate reality. >> before i get to allie, he would be flying from washington to west palm beach tomorrow, and then who knows what after that? >> the plan is for him to depart to his new home of mar-a-lago so wr he will be surrounded by the guests and being the club owner. the whole time he was president, he kept careful notes who was on the club roles, the member, who was dropping out. he still cares about that, and
in terms of how relevant he will be, that is a big question mark. taking atwitter makes it harder for him to insert of him in every story. but in terms of what happens after he gets home to mar-a-lago, it's a big tbd. >> allie, how is your team feeling now about the security provisions? >> joshua biden said he feels comfortable with the security measures in d.c. and the secret service garden and securitying against the threats. but remember, they're guarding against the threats you can see and stop and the threat we have been dealing with the last several months is the coronavirus. the presidential committee and chief of staff said they have known the inauguration is going to look different.
you're not going to see people in the streets. they are keeping the hall marking they can but safety is always the paramount concern, and is safety on dual tracks. you are seeing it in the tanks on the streets on of d.c., and everyone wearing masks and the fact you will have the parades and no crowds, all of this just hammers home how actually different this inauguration will be. we throw around the word unprecedented but this is a scenario where it fits. >> we understand this is going to be big push in the beginning of the administration to offer a flurry of orders to get things going fast out of the gate. what do we know about that? >> well, there are the specific words that are in a memo sent to white house staff and there is reading into the space and the blank spaces between those words. in terms of what we're hearing, none of this is weird in terms
on whaf they want to do, but it boils it down to the first ten days and it specific executive actions that president-elect biden hopes to take, things we have heard from him before. rejoining the paris climate, reversing the muslim ban. all the things that really do circle back to the four cry sis, covid, the economic change, climate change and racial injustice. and reading between the lines, what is not here. i was struck by the fact the memo would have been written two months ago. this has always been the focus on the transition before they officially won. before the networks called it. i remember being in a parking lot not too far from here and this was the message from the campaign. the consistency is really stunning. and it's interesting there is no
mention in here on the insurrection of kplil and the capitol hill and the impeachment from it. it's telling because they have an agenda, and they are not issues that are going away any time soon. we know this is a team that expects they have to see a senate juggle the potential for getting the article of impeachment. they know this is a reality but in the memo, not so. >> nbc's ali vitaly, and annie carney. thank you so much. washington's other story this week is impeachment. the senate is repairing for a second impeachment trial. democrats need to convince at least 17 republicans to convict trump this time around. three sources say that the legal team hopes to prove that a president kbnlt tried and convicted once he leaves office.
allies of the president say it's time to move on. they say it will durther divide an already divided nation. let's continue now with stacy plassket as an impeachment manager in the up coming trial. good evening. >> thanks for having me. >> what is your strategy for winning? what is the one most important thing that you think securing a conviction in the trial will depend on? >> i don't want to talk about the strategy on what the impeachment managers are working on. just suffice it to say we have ra phenomenal group of individuals that speaker pelosi, we have been humbled to be a part of and amazing staff that are working on this. we have in fact a case of a president who has done what the founders anticipated. that is an individual trying to
grip on to power and utilizing a mob that try to destroy our democracy to do that. we have all been witnesses to that, and that is what you will hair in the trial. >> john adams once said the jaws of power are always open to devour, and one of the interesting things about this, a lot has been made about the hesitance of some republican lawmaker they have power, and how much do you think they have to get over the hunger for power? the hunger to not lose it on the part of republican lawmakers as opposed to just appealing to shared american values, protecting the democracy and so on? >> well, i believe the job of the impeachment managers is in
fact to try a case, correct? and we are being entrusted with presenting the article of impeachment, which says what the president did. i believe all the senators are there and knows what happened and it will be our job to tell that story again, and i have great confidence in all 100 of those senators. i'm not going to be just speaking to a select group. we try to bring one side to the others and they are working together, to try to friend a case to those senators, those jurors, the witnesses of the crime that the president perpetrated and has been perpetrating for a period of time against the american people and against our democracy. >> there are a number of counterarguments that have come up already on the floor with the
votes to approve the articles of impeachment and the deliberations over the electoral college votes. one of is this is democrats going after the president again. if you say to a jaywalker, he is going to jaywalk, and he jaywalks, and i was right all along. and the causal connection to what the president said and what the crowd did. some are saying that you are make a first amendment argument that could ademnify that. is it possible to make an argument that exonerates the president? >> they are going to make whatever argument they are going to make. it's whether or not the argument is valid. the first amendment is not a --
>> goodness, i think we lost the congresswoman. she will be one of the impeachment managers who tries the case against president trump. let's see if we got the connection clean. congresswoman, can you hear me? >> yeah, i can hear you. can you hear me? >> good, right when it was the question i wanted to ask. let me ask you to start it one more time. first amendment argument and its potential to exonerate president trump? >> sure. we nailed it. all speech is not free. you're not allowed to say whatever speech you want. one example that is always put forward, you cannot cry fire in a crowded movie, correct? and in the same way, the president in particular cannot say the things he did. knowing what was out there, knowing what was going to happen, and to do that.
additionally, we know this president -- numerous people requested that the president say something to stop the crowd. well, after he was aware of what had happened, the capitol had been breached, he did nothing. he knew that january 6th the congress would be convening to carry out their constitutional duty to certify the election and he chose that date to have his rally, to bring his followers and to destroy -- attempt to destroy our democracy? >> congresswoman stacy plassket, one of the impeachment managers from the second trial, i appreciate you making time. thank you. >> thank you so much. >> still ahead, we will get your reactions to this week's events throughout the next two hours. we have gotten plenty but feel free to end us more. tweet us. or email us, email@example.com.
coming up, we look at the legal challenges for trump. can a self-pardon be in the works? and nine years since the flint michigan water. congressman dan kilndy will join us ahead. and nbc's ken delainan has reporting on the fbi investigation, that is next when "the week" continues on msnbc. m. to support a strong immune system, your body needs routine. centrum helps your immune defenses every day, with vitamin c, d and zinc. season, after season. ace your immune support, with centrum. (grandmother) thank you for taking me home. it's so far. (young woman) don't worry about it, grandma! this will be fun. two chocolate milkshakes please.
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investigating a $500,000 bitcoin payment made to key figures in the alt right before the attack. federal and d.c. police agencies have noticed since the riot, russian, iranian and chinese influence actors have seized opportunity in the presidential transition, end quote. joining us now is ken delainan. tell us about the fbi invest investigation. it sounds like they is -- this has been become a geo political matter. that overstating it or
it this it? >> that is certainly what the fbi is investigating. they are looking at $500,000 in bitcoin. it appeared to be from a french programmer who committed suicide. and people have looked and said that was a french computer programmer but that is a lot of money that went to some significant alt right figures a few weeks before the protest. but the fbi -- there is a long history of a russian government making common cause with far right and far left extremists in the united states, and the fbi is looking to see whether there was any that here. whether there was any recruitment of the people, whether there was any funding. because looking a the what the russian government and the chinese government are doing now, they are trying to seize the episode and try to denigrate
the united states and feed their narratives. and motivating, it's clear this was a domestic movement. a domestic -- mostly a united states phenomenon. there may have been foreign influences. >> in your reports, you report how they have long been believed to have an affinity between them. elaborate on that. >> yeah, there are -- the fbi has seen evidence for years of atimpts by rush intelligence officers to infiltrate them in the group, and some americans and westerns have gone to the ukraine for training and so, there's -- there's a symbiosis here, and we even saw the russians seeming to infiltrate the national rifle association,
a right wing republican oriented group. and the question is -- some of that is not illegal but if the russians funded -- there are a lot of potential criminal charges and also it's a counter intelligence issue. and that is why the fbi's counter intelligence is part of the investigation. >> and one having to do with the security issue here, red zones and green zones set up here around the capitol and the national mall to delineate where people cannot go in and out. you can see the area around the washington monument, the lincoln memorial, the capitol up to the white house, carolyn asked on twitter, do you think the fences, walls and barriers are going to stay up in d.c.
permanently? so sad for the city? >> i don't think so. these barriers are designed to address a mass gathering of people, and a potentially mass demonstration. we may see more fencing, more security based on what happened on january 6th. but what we're seeing now is about adds militarized they have been there since the civil war. not even since after 9/11, the armed troops and streets blocked off. >> live in d.c., you see the security presence, and one question from twitter, a viewer asked, why have we not heard a peep from the dn snirks where is dni? before we go?
>> i think that is a fair question. radcliffe issued a statement about the space force. we are mainly a foreign intelligence, and includes the fbi and the national counterterrorism center. was clearly an intelligence failure, and they have not said one word about it. >> nbc national security correspondent ken, thank you very much. coming up, why the second impeachment trial will not like the first still ahead. stay close. like the first still ahead. stay close
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the president's words incited people's actions to commit a deadly insurrection after the united states capitol. and i think once we lay out all the evidence, the senators and the american people will see clearly that you have to hold this president responsible. >> that was texas congressman joaquin castro. he will serve as one of the impeachment managers for the impeachment trial. the second trial. the status quo has changed since the first one. democrats will be leading by a slim majority in the senate. also, last year's case revolved around a private phone dhaul mr. trump made to a world leader. the evidence for this year's charge was televised live for the entire world to see. we all saw the same thing at the same time. for more on the legal challenges facing the president, let's bring in joyce vance, former u.s. attorney, and chuck rosenberg, a senior fbi
official. both are msnbc legal analysts. good to see you both. we are so delighted to have the two of you. let's get you a question from a viewer named chuck. that doesn't get you to the front of the line but clearly it doesn't hurt. if trump pardons all the insurrectionists, leaves office and is impeached by the senate, account pardons be overturned? i think the answer is no, that the presidential pardon power is one of those kind of absolute pieces of presidency that is sort of grandfathered in, be what would you say? >> i agree with you, joshua. it's not quite absolute. the constitution itself puts at least two restrictions on it. it can only be for federal
offenses, and it can't be for impeachment. as long as the pardons were authored in his presidency, they would be valid. >> and self-pardon. what happen do you think of the prospect for one? >> well, the law is delightfully ambiguous on the self-pardon topic. there is no clarity. and the better part of the argument is clear the president can't pardon himself. one of the principles of the rule of law is that no man can judge his case. if the president can self-pardon, he can commit crimes for your years and hold himself above the law on the way out of door. to say a self pardon is unlikely to hold up in court, there is very little to keep the
president from converting without convention and we can see one before he leaves office. >> can trump issue pardons for the act that gives him impeached, for rioters or himself? >> i think it follows from the earlier answer that he can't in the sense that it couldn't wouldn't be legally valid. if he was down the road prosecuted by the united states government for the same acts, tried to offer a self-pardon say you can't prosecute me and we would be back on the supreme court to let them decide the issue. my legal crystal ball is that it wouldn't work in the president's favor. >> a few more legal questions, what about a pardon? does receiving a pardon assume a question of guilt, what it means for future litigations? >> yeah, absolutely.
there is an old supreme court case, i think it dates back to 1915, and the supreme court said in berdych, is that offering someone a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and accepting the pardon is a confession of guilt. i don't know necessarily if someone who receiving a pardon would have confessed in the conventional sense to having committed a crime but there is an imputation of guilt in the ofference of a por don. >> before i let you go, let me get your sense of what the pril might look like. joyce, we understand that jim jordan of ohio and matt gates on two people that might be part of the president's legal team. and two of president trump's
defenders part of his legal defense in the impeachment trial. >> well, it will be colorful, loud and tough for the american people to sit through. but one thing i would highlight, joshua, this is a houston most unusual journey, and they are also victims of the crime itself in a very real sense. when his -- sensed real movement in terms of how they receive this president and whether or not there was an act too far and abuse of his power. this will be a very unfriendly jury. >> what about the nature of the evidence. i almost feel like this is a the george floyd homicide in terms it shifted for black lives matter. everyone saw the same 6:06
seconds. we saw what happened at the capitol raw. there is no question what we were looking at. how much of a difference do you think it will make this time? >> you're quite right. we saw and heard and felt the evidence but i don't think the trump speech on the morning of january 6th is the entirety of it. are lots of other things he said and did leading up to the january 6th speech that are relative. there may be lots of evidence that comes from people with whom he spoke before and after his january 6th speech. depending on when the house delivers the artle with of impeachment for the senate, they can call witnesses, something we did not see in the first impeachment trial. >> chuck and joyce, we appreciate you answering some of the audience questions and our questions as well. thanks very much. we will shift gears in just
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group does the vaccinations. to overcome the shortages, they tapped nursing students to assist. >> do you think it's something that other cities with use? >> yeah, we will make sure our model is as transparent as possible? >> you are just going to share it? >> yeah, away want to get out of the pandemic. >> reporter: for you newly vaccinated jo anna vazquez, it can't be soon number. >> it's going to be amazing and i hope it's not too long. >> reporter: getting vaccines out quickly and efficiently is key. >> my grandmother died of covid earlier in year so it's bittersweet. sorry, and i'm just really happy. >> that is nbc's stephanie gosk reporting. tomorrow, we will answer more of your questions about covid-19 or the vaccine. dr. ezekiel emmanual is on president-elect biden's covid-19
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this week, prosecutors announced new indictments in michigan against nine former officials for their alleged roles in the flint water crisis governor rick snyder. the crisis began in 2014, part of an effort to save money. officials in flint switched the city's water supply from detroit's water system to the flint river. that exposed residents to dangerous levels of michigan's solicitor general said this about the charges against former governor schneider. >> let me be clear. there are no velvet ropes in our criminal justice system. nobody, no matter how powerful or well-connected, is above
accountability when they commit a crime. >> joining us now is congressman dan kildee. he was important and raised in flint and represents the area in congress. congressman, good evening. >> thanks, joshua, thanks for having me on. >> what does justice look like in this case and do you expect justice to be done in this case? >> well, it remains to be seen whether justice will be done. i never get ahead of a criminal investigation or criminal charges. i think the process will work itself out. and the people of flint finally will have their day in court. but justice for flint comes in lots of forms. holding these individuals accountable, especially thinking about the times we're in right now, seeing that the state of michigan, this current prosecutor team, is not letting anyone off the hook no matter who they are, no matter what position they hold. the facts led them to these defendants. and even though they were in
high positions of government, they're going to facial a jury and a judge. i think that's obviously one measure of justice. there are lots of other things that flint needs in order to have real justice as a result of the water crisis. making sure everyone has the support they need in order to overcome the barriers this crisis has created. dealing with the economic impact, the psychological impact, all the health impacts. some financial compensation for the losses that people faced. but this is an important part of the march for justice for the people of flint. not everyone is satisfied with these charges. but i think it's pretty extraordinary that this prosecution team did their job, followed the facts, and it led them to the people at the highest levels of the government. >> the state senate minority leader says he still can't trust claims that the water is safe to drink. everyone i've talked to this week in my own life about this story was like, i wouldn't trust it either. i don't know how you go about rebuilding confidence in the
water system that people are paying for, that is still not necessarily safe to put in their children's bodies. first of all, how is the water in flint right now? is the water drinkable? and where do you see the effort to make sure that people can trust the water once it is drinkable? >> those are two really interesting and distinct questions. whether it's drinkable or not, people don't trust it. they were told it was drinkable before by some of the people that are facing these charges. had some of the facts that will work against them. the quality of the water has improved in there are still problems for sure. we are almost completed in terms of replacing all those lead service lines. i don't think anyone is going to completely trust it until all those lead lines are gone. you raise a very important point. this is a community that had government fail virtually at
every level and it's really tough to ask them now, you know, we want you to trust us now, don't trust those other people. you know the folks in flint see government as a set of institutions that failed them. and i don't take it personally when folks are suspicious. i think we have to give the people of flint a little bit of space but also make sure what we're doing is not just getting them back to where they were before the crisis. i think that would be the ultimate breach of trust, because what that will say to them is that we're going to get you right back where you were before one miscalculation put this whole community in free fall. the underlying problem that fails -- that we've completely failed to address as a society is that we have too many places like flint that are just teetering on the brink. this time it was water. it could have been something
else. we have to find a way to make sure the basic elements of civil society, whether it's affordable drinking water or basic public services of a reasonable quality, that ought to be an assurance for everyone, not something that we have to question. >> before i let you go, i want to ask you about these protests that are feared in connection with the inauguration. flint is not too far a drive away from lansing, the state capitol. how prepared is michigan and michiganders for this monday? we remember the crowd that was literally calling for governor gretchen wilmer's head. >> the events that occurred in michigan before were just a dress rehearsal for what we saw in washington. i think our governor and the entire security infrastructure will be prepared. but joshua, there's a really important thing i want to say.
we are expecting the president at some point, obviously he'll leave office, to tell the truth. i don't know that we can expect that, but one thing we can expect, all those members of congress and senators that went along with the lie because it served their political purposes, they have a responsibility right now to help tamp this down by doing the hard thing and that is tell the truth. acknowledge that this was all a lie, apologize to the people who have been hurt by this. now, whether they'll do that or not, i don't know. but i think they have an obligation, those people who voted to overturn this election, those state officials who went along with this big lie, they have an obligation to help tamp this down by telling the truth. and we'll just see if they'll do that. >> congressman dan kildee who represents flint, michigan. congressman, we appreciate your time, thank you. >> thank you very much. we have much more to get to in our next hour including the latest on the situation here in
washington. security is beefed up all around the capitol. new threats of violence are coming ahead of the inauguration. also we'll explore how something called "the invisible obvious" may explain the biases that shaped the capitol riot. and i'll share my thoughts on the emotional work we may need to do to prepare for this year and this presidency, all ahead when "the week" continues from washington on msnbc.
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