tv The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell MSNBC April 6, 2021 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
a quick reminder of our top story tonight that just broke as we were getting on the air tonight. the "new york times" furthering their story on congressman matt gaetz, probably the most pro-trump congressman on capitol hill. he is accused of alleged sex trafficking. in the closing days of the trump administration, gaetz actually asked the office privately for a preemptive blanket pardon of himself. this is while an investigation for him of alleged sex trafficking was underway. at the time he asked for the pardon, justice department investigators had begun questioning associates of mr. gaetz about his conduct,
including whether he had had a sexual relationship with a 17-year-old girl which violated sex trafficking laws. he obviously never got that pardon, not that we know of, but him asking for it is just the latest nauseaing wrinkle in this story. that's going to do it for us today. see you tomorrow. and now we have lawrence o'donnell. >> the "times" said he was asking for the pardon for himself and other members of congress, suggesting that he wanted to see a large group pardon in which his wouldn't particularly stand out, and the idea would be that, well, those awful democrats will just want to prosecute us for being good republicans, so we need this kind of protection. >> right. and then as if that would stand up, though. if ultimately something like that happened, like republicans get charged with, like, corruption or abuse of office or even incitement to riot or
sedition or something, matt gaetz would still be charged with child sex trafficking which would still stand out even among lots of other people being, you know, charged with things that he thought were just democratic score settling. i just -- i mean, i don't find it at all surprising that he told donald trump to give him a blanket preemptive pardon. i find it sort of surprising that trump didn't do it. but if he knew he was under investigation for these particular charges while he asked for it, that is really something. >> that's the part that we're not sure of at this point. who knew -- we know that william barr knew. we know that the justice department knew last year. and so that means william barr knew. did william barr tell the president? did anyone in the white house know? the "times" reports that matt gaetz certainly didn't tell anyone in the white house that, oh, by the way, i believe i'm under investigation for sex trafficking. >> but his associates were being
questioned about his behavior, including with underage girls at the time that he asked for it, so if those associates told matt that they had been approached and talked to by investigators, then -- i'm going to go take a shower. yuck. >> rachel, as we're going to show later in this hour, and you don't have to watch it, you've dealt with this enough already tonight, matt gaetz was doing that trump thing, which is if you do it in public, it can't be a crime, right? matt gaetz was saying on fox, president trump should pardon everyone, and he was just saying, you know -- he should pardon himself, donald trump should pardon himself, he was saying. by the way, he was saying this on november 24th, which is odd, because it's the kind of thing you say when you know the trump presidency is all over, and at the same time, fox was covering the ongoing trump re-election campaign which was supposed to
change the outcome of the electoral college, of all things. >> and he was saying trump was definitely going to have a second term and he would definitely be re-elected and these purported election results were rigged, so it was weird at the same time that he was like, and i need a pardon right now. so if you think your man is getting a second term, there is no rush, especially if you haven't done anything wrong. so there was something wrong and self-defeating about the timing of it then and now maybe we know why. >> matt gaetz in a statement promised us yesterday there would be more leaks coming, and he was right, and i'm sure he's right that there will be more after this. >> good luck, lawrence. i'm going to go shower. >> thank you, rachel. thank you. well, today, day 7 of the trial of derek chauvin for the murder of george floyd, was a day of complex and important trial strategy by the prosecution, which seems to be
anticipating that the jury will never hear one word from derek chauvin on the witness stand. if derek chauvin takes the witness stand in his own defense on cross examination, prosecutors will run the nine minutes 29 seconds of video of his knee on george floyd's neck, and they will stop every 20, 30 seconds or so and ask derek chauvin would his knee is still on george floyd's neck. yesterday the jury heard the minneapolis police chief say that derek chauvin should have taken his knee off george floyd's neck in the first few seconds. those were his exact words, the first few seconds. prosecutors believe that derek chauvin has no good answer as to why he kept his knee on george floyd's neck after the first few seconds, and in anticipation of derek chauvin not testifying, the prosecution presented a series of police witnesses today to establish in detail what
derek chauvin should have done after george floyd was lying face down on the pavement and handcuffed behind his back. lieutenant johnny mercel is in charge of the minneapolis police department's use of force training, and he personally trained derek chauvin on defensive tactics in 2018. >> is this an mpd-trained neck restraint? >> no, sir. >> has it ever been? >> a neck restraint? no, sir. >> is this an mpd-authorized restraint technique? >> a knee on the neck would be something that does happen in use of force that isn't authorized. >> and when is it authorized? when can you do that? >> i don't know, it would depend on the action at the time.
>> doing what? >> depending what the circumstances were. >> if the defendant were under control and handcuffed, would this be authorized? >> i would say no. >> after testifying that a person could be unconscious one moment and suddenly recover and become violent, the prosecution came back with this. >> you testified that an individual can be unconscious one moment and then suddenly become conscious and become violent, correct? >> potentially, yes, sir. >> have you ever had a circumstance where an individual has lost their pulse and suddenly come back to life and become more violent? >> not that i'm aware of, sir. >> the prosecution focused on derek chauvin's duty to give george floyd medical attention. >> initially the goal is to arrest someone after taking in information if you determine the person needed medical attention,
could you act on that? >> yes. >> what would the action be if a person was in need of medical attention? >> that would be the immediate goal for us. if someone is in need of medical attention, then we give him medical attention. >> why would you roll someone in the side recovery position after they've been handcuffed and are compliant? >> several reasons are there, but one would be to prevent a potential situation where they may be subject to potential asphyxiation. >> do you train officers -- as part of your training, do you train officers that if a person can talk, it means that they can breathe? >> no, sir. >> why not? >> that would be incomplete to say, because there is possible -- you know, there is a possibility that someone could be in respiratory distress and still be able to verbalize it. just because they're speaking doesn't mean they're breathing adequately. >> the prosecution tried to counter defense claims that the small gathering of eyewitnesses
was somehow threatening to the police officers on the scene. >> you can see the bystanders have something in their hands, correct? >> yes, sir. >> those appear to be video cameras, is that right, or smartphones? >> yes, sir. >> that extra fact would not justify an increased use of force, would it? >> just the cameras, no. >> in terms of continuation of use of force, and we're talking about involvement of onlookers, right, the words they use matter, correct? >> yes, sir. >> if they're cheering on and saying, good job, officer, that's one consideration. but if they're saying, i'd slap the [ bleep ] out of you, or you're a chump, would reasonably tend to rise alarm in a police officer? >> yes, sir.
>> i have no further questions. >> and if they're saying get off him, you're killing him, should the officer also take that into account and consider whether their actions need to be reassessed? >> potentially, yes. >> nothing further. >> and the prosecution drove home the single most important principle about police use of force, the least amount of force necessary. >> just explain to the jury as you would a group of trainees, what is proportional force? >> you want to use the least amount of force necessary to meet your objectives to control. and if those lower uses of force do not work, would not work or are too unsafe to try, then you can increase your level of force against that person. >> you said you want to use the least amount of force as necessary? >> yes, sir. >> why is that? >> because if you can use the
least -- the lower level of force to meet your objectives, it's safer and better for everybody involved. >> better for everybody involved, the least amount of force necessary. leading off our discussion tonight, herc berkhalter, a former nypd detective. also mark claxton, director of the black law enforcement alliance, himself a former nypd detective. mr. berkhalter, let me begin with you tonight. what did you see in the trial today that you thought was important? >> two, one from the prosecution's point of view and one from the police. the prosecution really narrowed down its argument with regard to the use of force. a lot of evidence about this use of force continuum as to when
the use of force should escalate, when it should de-escalate and when police officers should enforce that. from the defense side, we saw this continued narrative that wants the jury to presuppose in some way, shape or form the crowd posed a threat. lawrence, what is interesting about this is this is just what people of color have been saying all along, that a group of people of color, given the implicit bias of police officers and others in this country, are best perceived as a threat. if this was not a crowd of a group of people of color, that defense probably wouldn't pass the laugh test. however, that is the nature of the defense and we've seen that narrative driven home continuously and it continued to be set forth today. >> mark claxton, what stood out to you in the trial today? >> similar to kirk, what really stood out to me was the emphasis
on proportionality and some of the cornerstones of police training that relates to use of force. it's interesting because the conversation about proportionality really should focus around disproportionality when it pertains to people of color, as kirk was indicating, but i think what was most important in the discussions they're having about training, use of force, the use of force continuum, the minimum level of force necessary to achieve the goal, is the critical thinking process. you see, all of these things, all of these training suggestions and guidelines and recommendations rely heavily on the application of the mind regarding the circumstances, so you have to re-evaluate, reassess and readjust as a professional in order to avoid a fatality such as mr. floyd's.
>> professor berkhalter, i thought i saw two things in the way the prosecution was approaching this case. they were putting on experts, including one who trained the defendant himself in use of force, to say this is the way it should be done. but it also seemed that they were anticipating the possibility of never getting a chance to question derek chauvin on the witness stand, and so today we saw a kind of question aimed at these police experts, these police trainers that would be aimed at derek chauvin if he took the witness stand. they may never get a chance to bring that kind of information up with derek chauvin, so it seemed like they were trying to get pieces of it out today. >> very much so, i would agree, lawrence. derek chauvin would take the stand as a last resort. if he had nothing to lose, if this case was over, he would take the stand. however, that would be a risk because the prosecution would
hammer him the whole way. so as an alternative, what the prosecution did was ask questions of their witnesses. let's stop the film at this point. what use of force should be used here? let's stop the film here. have you ever trained anyone in your department to do xyz? it's very helpful that we saw some of these witnesses testifying in part as if they were derek chauvin, providing the answers that the prosecution was seeking. >> marq, what are we out here learning about the effectiveness of police training when we see all these police professionals come on from the chief on down throughout that department. we had an expert flown in from lapd to testify today to say this was improper use of force. what are we learning about the effectiveness of police training or ineffectiveness of police training when it comes to police work in the street as executed
by police officers like derek chauvin. >> what we're learning is what you indicated right there is that it's ineffective in large part. something kirk has been focused on, and that is going away from training, necessarily, and really focusing on education, which is vitally important. i think the prosecution can get as much testimony from experts as possible, but they want to break it down to the bottom line. the truth is the most straightforward explanation available, and this time that truth is on videotape. >> professor kirk berkhalter and marq claxton, thank you both for joining us again tonight. we really appreciate it. >> you're welcome. coming up, we will have more on the breaking news rachel and i were just discussing from the "new york times," their report that congressman matt gaetz personally asked and privately
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today president biden announced that his administration is on track to deliver more than they promised once again. >> we crossed 150 million shots in 75 days the first 75 days of my administration. we're on the way of hitting my goal of 200 million shots by the 100th day in office. >> and the president announced today that the federal government will be urging all states to make vaccinations available to younger people sooner than planned. >> on march 11th, i announced that i was opening up all vaccination sites to all adults by may 1st. i'm announcing today that we're moving that data from may 1st to
april 19th nationwide. that means by no later than april 19th, in every part of this country, every adult over the age of 18 or older will be eligible to be vaccinated. >> turning our discussion now, andy slavitt, white house senior adviser for covid, thank you for being here. we appreciate it. according to what the president said, you're going to overdeliver once again on the 200 million shot target. at what point do you think we'll reach everyone eager to get the shot leaving however many are vaccine reluctant still there? >> we just announced we hit our 150 millionth shot, which
translates roughly into about 60% of seniors have had their first shot, and i think right around this coming weekend, we'll have about half of all adults in the country that have had their first shot. that's good, that's obviously a lot of progress. when we came to office, only 8% of seniors had had their first shot, but that leaves lots of people who haven't had their first shot yet, and that means that we have still a lot of work to do. so it's going to be important for people to try to stay as patient as possible for the near term. but i expect, lawrence, that sometime over the course of april and may, we are going to be quickly reaching, particularly in some parts of the country, parts where we are getting everybody who wants to be vaccinated vaccinated, and if i had a message today, a message to states is it's going to be time to get more creative and find people where they are,
because there will be lots more people who need vaccine shots and we need to find them. >> there are some states that are ahead of the biden schedule as announced today in new york state, for one is reportedly already offering the vaccine to 16-year-olds and above. how do you expect this to go, because some states are going to be doing this at very different paces? >> you know, it's funny, as we started talking to states and said, look, we might be moving the date forward to april 19th, they gave everybody a chance to get out ahead. and, you know, we want states to be able to go as quickly as they can possibly go knowing we're going to be pushing on the back end there a bit. what's really important now is that seniors, even though we have 76% of seniors with their first shot, we would love to get that over 80%, and we should push to do that as quickly as possible. because come the 19th in many states, there's going to be long lines again.
so if you are a senior or you have a senior in your family and they just haven't gotten that first shot yet, now is a perfect time, now and in the next week would be a great time to go get your first shot, because then we're going to push for the rest of the country eligible to be vaccinated soon after that. >> i want to mention something that dr. michael osterholm said on sunday. >> we will see more globally since the pandemic. we haven't really even begun to see it yet. >> what's your reaction to that, and if there is a surge here, will the vaccine protect against that? >> i think it already is. i think if we had not had the rate in the level of vaccinations we've had so far, it would look a lot more like it does in europe right now where you've got much higher peaks.
we have seen some increases, and i think it's important we take stock of the fact that even with all these vaccinations, we're seeing a slight uptick. we're averaging 60,000 cases a day. but if we keep accelerating our vaccinations, and one of the reasons the president is pushing so hard to do more vaccinations, we've done a day of 4 million vaccinations, is because if we can accelerate our vaccinations, we can meet and beat the threat. there are plenty of people out there with plenty of projections. nobody knows the future. what i can tell you if we hadn't vaccinated 60% of seniors and close to half of adults, we would be in a much worse situation, so let's get the rest of the way there. >> how far away are we from knowing how effective the current vaccines are against the variants that have developed after those vaccines were developed? >> it's a great question, lawrence. for the variants of concern, and
there are roughly three from outside the u.s. and there's a couple called variants of interest, the distinction is a little bit hard to explain, but i guess a variant of concern is worse and a variant of interest is something they're watching. the good news is that the vaccines, all three of the vaccines, seem to be effective against all of these variants in one form or another. now, there may someday be a variant as happens with other illnesses like, say, the flu or other things where there are modifications that we will need to amend the vaccines for. right now the vaccine manufacturers are in trials to see if there are additional vaccines or additional boosters that might be required, but the very good news is that while they work to varying degrees on different ones of these viruses, we will see, particularly against the three of most concern, these vaccines do a pretty good job, if not just as good a job.
>> andy slavitt, thank you very much for including us in your busy workday. we really appreciate it. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, we will have the breaking news from the "new york times" on matt gaetz asking the trump white house for a preemptive blanket pardon for himself and for unnamed members of congress. that's next. that's next. you're on it. staying fit and snacking light? yup, on it there too. you may think you're doing all you can to manage type 2 diabetes and heart disease... ...but could your medication do more to lower your heart risk? jardiance can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults who also have known heart disease. so, it could help save your life from a heart attack or stroke. and it lowers a1c. jardiance can cause serious side effects including dehydration, ...genital yeast or urinary tract infections, and sudden kidney problems. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may be fatal.
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in a breaking news report tonight, the "new york times" says that congressman matt gaetz who is under investigation for possible sex trafficking charges privately asked for a pardon from donald trump in the final weeks of the presidency. he privately asked for blanket preemptive pardons for himself and any congressional allies for
any crimes they may have committed, said two people told of the discussions. on november 24th, when donald trump and matt gaetz were pretending that donald trump would be president for life, congressman gaetz went on fox to prepare his supporters and trump supporters for what he hoped would be pardons for everyone. >> president trump should pardon michael flynn, he should pardon the thanksgiving turkey, he should pardon everyone from himself to administration officials to joe exotic if he has to, because you see from the radical left a bloodlust that will only be quenched if they come after the people who worked so hard to animate the trump administration with the policies and the vigor and the effectiveness that delivered for the american people, so i think the president ought to wield that pardon power effectively and robustly. >> the "times" reports that it's unclear weather matt gaetz or
the president knew that he was under investigation at the time that he was asking for that pardon. quote, mr. gaetz did not tell white house aides that he was under investigation for potential sex trafficking violations when he made the request. it is unclear whether mr. gaetz discussed the matter directly with the president. congressman gaetz has denied that he has violated any laws. joining us now is glen kirschner, former career federal prosecutor, now an msnbc legal analyst. glen, this is so striking, especially this allegation that matt gaetz and rudy giuliani was sending everyone to matt gaetz with fair election claims. they are begging the trump presidency for a pardon for himself. >> let's start with the obvious
observation, lawrence. you don't ask for a presidential pardon unless you've committed crimes, unless you need a presidential pardon. but it's nice to actually have some supreme court precedent to look to to put this into context. more than 100 years ago, 1915, there was a case called the united states against george burdick, and president woodrow wilson issued george burdick a pardon. george said, i don't want one because i don't believe i committed a crime. the supreme court said, a pardon carries with it an imputation of guilt, and if you accept a pardon, that is virtually a confession of guilt. so if we extend the supreme court rationale to matt gaetz, what does it mean when you request a pardon, when you speak out a pardon? it obviously, if you apply the same rationale, has an
amputation of guilt and could be viewed as a confession of guilt. >> the "times" is reporting that matt gaetz was asking not just for himself, he wanted a group of republican congressmen to get a pardon, which strikes me as just kind of asking for cover. you know, he wants jim jordan and a bunch of other people to be pardoned, including people who might not need one for any reason at all so that his pardon won't stand out. >> you know what, nobody wants to stand in a line-up by themselves, because then you're the one who is going to get picked. let's surround ourselves, let's put ourselves in a bag of pardons and then maybe i'll get lost in the mix. that's important that he was asking for pardons for lots of folks, but he was also asking for a blanket pardon, not a targeted pardon. you could see if matt gaetz was hypothetically facing a reckless driving charge and he said, mr. president, i don't want to contend with this reckless
driving charge, so i'd like a targeted pardon for that. no, matt gaetz wanted a blanket pardon. what does that mean? i want a pass, mr. president, for all crimes i have ever committed in all my life. and, lawrence, that is quite an ask. there is news tonight from "politico" about what might be matt gaetz' next public appearance. they say he is to be the featured speaker at a pro-trump women's speaker event this friday in florida at a trump country club there. it says, the organization praised gaetz as one of the few members of congress willing to stand up and fight on behalf of president trump and his america first agenda. it is likely we won't hear any facts on this case.
>> probably not, but they will be listening keenly, because matt gaetz is always making admissions. he is his own worst enemy. so you know what? let him continue to talk because he's only providing more evidence for investigators and prosecutors. >> glenn kirschner, thank you very much for joining us. really appreciate it. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, major league baseball is moving the all-star game west from atlanta to denver, colorado and that provoked a bunch of lies from republicans today about election laws in colorado. the new governor of the all-star game, colorado governor jared polis will join us next. polis will join us next. erently. wet teddy bears! wet teddy bears here! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ [music: "i swear"] jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day...
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was asked about moving sporting events out of georgia in protest for the new georgia law restricting voting access. >> do you think the masters golf tournament should be moved out of georgia? >> i think that's up to the masters. look, you know, it is reassuring to see that for-profit operations and businesses are speaking up about how these new jim crow laws are just antithetical to who we are. the best way to deal with this is for georgia and other states to smarten up. stop it. stop it. >> joining us now, the governor who is welcoming the all-star game to denver, colorado
governor jared polis. thank you very much for joining us tonight, governor. when did you get the word that the all-star game was coming your way, and what do you think it means for denver? >> i couldn't be more excited, lawrence. we knew we were in the running. the buzz was we were the likely city to get it. it's because denver such a great baseball city, colorado is a great place to play. you can imagine the home run derby on july 12th a mile above sea level is going to be absolutely epic, and we haven't hosted it since 1998. there were a whole host of fans who weren't even born yet when we hosted, so we're ready. >> mitch mcconnell is not happy about this. let's listen to something he said today. >> republicans drink coca-cola, too. and we fly. and we like baseball. if i were running a major corporation, i'd stay out of politics. i think this is quite stupid to jump in the middle of a highly controversial issue.
>> governor, what's your reaction to that coming from a man who has spent his entire professional life begging businesses and corporations to be financially involved in politics by giving him and his party money? >> well, you know, it certainly sounds hypocritical, but you know what, mitch, you're invited to colorado, too, if you're a baseball fan. come out, it's about baseball, it's not about politics and whether mitch is a national league fan or an american league fan. you'll be able to cheer from your seat on july 15. >> when you have a win, you have a win. to joe biden's point today, there's been a lot of comparisons now, republicans throwing out their, hey, wait a minute. colorado's voting laws are restrictive also. what's your response to that? >> it's absolutely false. it's been rebuffed by all
responsible media. colorado was the second state for turnout. every voter gets a ballot in the mail three weeks before the election. that's one of the reasons we have election day registration, early voting. we're proud of our system. it's bipartisan, republicans like it, democrats like it, independents like it. if you're allowed to vote, you vote, and then we have measures in place to make sure there weren't fraudulent ballots cast. i'm proud of colorado, but really this decision is about showcasing the amazing athletes in major league baseball and what better place to do it than coors field in mid-july and i certainly couldn't be more excited. >> i want to turn to what the president was saying today about the covid vaccine and how they're lowering the age recommendation for delivering the covid vaccine. in colorado you've already opened it up to younger people, haven't you? >> it's open to everybody 16 and up. has been for several days now. it's going well. our priorities get it into arms, any arm, and the pandemic, we've
reached 80% of people over 70. they represented three-quarters of the deaths due to covid in our state. now we're moving on to everybody. it doesn't mean everybody can get an appointment tomorrow or the day after, it might be a week or two weeks. but we're rapidly moving to save lives in the pandemic. >> how are you balancing the reopening of activities in colorado with the penetration of the vaccine? >> it's important to put things in perspective. we're only at about a quarter of our population with immunity. that means there's still ample room for the virus to grow. it's why we wear masks in colorado. it's why we also have six feet distance across restaurants of colorado and we're working for as much outdoor dining as possible, especially with our beautiful spring weather. >> and what's the capacity of the stadium? how many people will be allowed in? >> i think we're at about 51,000
and we expect full capacity by july. president biden has said everybody will be able to get the vaccine by mid to late may, and that means immunity by mid to late june. thankfully the all-star game leaves several weeks of buffer. we're already at 26,000 people a game at coors field, so we're at about half capacity currently. >> governor jared polis, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. i really appreciate it. >> thank you. good evening, lawrence. coming up, some things are exactly as they appear to be. a new study by political scientists show that many of the people arrested for the attack on the capitol are white supremacists. the author of that study says that those people represent an ongoing threat to the country. that's next. that's next. a potato pay. where ore-ida golden crinkles are your crispy currency to pay for bites of this... ...with this. when kids won't eat dinner, potato pay them to. ore-ida. win at mealtime.
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urgings of did the account who told them to go there and fight. a political scientist at the university of chicago assembled a team to analyze the available data on 377 of the people who have been arrested and charged with the attack on the capitol, and he told "the new york times" this about what he found. quote, you see a common pattern in the capitol insurrectionists. they are mainly middle class to upper middle class whites who are worried that as social changes occur around them they will see a decline in their status in the future. the professor's study found that people arrested at the capitol are, quote, 95% white, and 85% male, and many live near and among biden supporters in blue and purple counties, counties with most significant declines
in the nonhispanic white population are the most likely to -- who now face charges. professor pape holds a long held view called the great replacement theory. it's achieved iconic status and holds that minorities are progressively replacing white populations due to mass immigration policies and low birthrates. to ignore this movement and its potential would be a kin to trump's response to covid-19. we cannot presume it will blow over. the ingredients exist for future waves of political violence from lone wolf attacks to all-out assaults on democracy. joining our discussion now, professor eddie long, the chair of african-american studies at princeton university, and a christina greer, an associate
professor of political science at fordham. professor greer, let me begin with you. this does seem to be one of the cases where the people arrested are what they appeared to be when we were watching them do what they did that day. >> right, lawrence. reading this piece by my colleague it reads a little bit like a web story for a lot of folks. this idea of economic anxiety is something that black organizers have been talking about for years where it's just their -- the economic anxiety is so minuscule compared to the white supremacy that we saw in charlottesville and again on display january 6th. when people were marching through charlottesville talking about the jews will not replace us, blacks will not replace us, specifically going under the ideology that the president had sewn those seeds for months and years, so many americans knew exactly what that was.
and during the tenure of donald trump, far too many americans refused to recognize it. they told themselves it was everything but white supremacy, everything but racism. even on january 6th. >> we had far too many americans trying to justify it as something else. when political science finally meets up with politics we get a far better understanding of what they have been telling us since day one. you can look at the pictures on the screen and say there's not enough anxiety in the world to justify storming the capitol and killing a police officer in the process. >> professor, when i was reading the study, it has a lot of the kind of almost inaccessible social science language and political science language that finds its way into this kind of work, and yet, the ugly and
powerful reality that it was delivering still leapt off those pages in a really chilling way. >> oh, absolutely. and what struck me is that of the 370 plus people who are arrested, only 10% of those could be self-identified as oath keepers or proud boys. and part of what the professor reveals is that these are ordinary people. mostly men, obviously but men who live in the counties that went for biden who believe the country is turning brown and black, they are losing this idea that america is this majority white nation, and that anxiety is driving their own sense of alienation, so what we saw on january 6th is that the cold civil war that we know that we're in can easily turn hot, and what professor pape tells us
is it's not just those in ideological extremes holding this point of view but folks among us holding this point of view that -- i just want to say this really quickly, lawrence, it also leading us to believe or leads know conclude, rather, that we need to understand the challenge to voting rights across 43 plus states as a kind of extension of what we saw an january 6th. because just as january 6th was an insurrection about america must remain white europe, the assault is an attempt to continue the view that america must remain a white nation as in the vein of old europe as well. >> professor greer, to extend that, what we're seeing in these georgia laws is a reward in effect for those that went to the capitol. they didn't get what they wanted that day, but we'll deliver for
them. >> absolutely. but we have to back up just a bit. the fact that georgia had gone to the republican presidential candidate every year -- bill clinton delivered it one time, jimmy carter delivered it, but georgia was ostensibly red, and not only did joe biden win georgia, but we also delivered a jewish american and african-american to the senate. most black voters know the pendulum swings in american democracy succinctly. it tends to ebb and flow. the gains are oftentimes followed swiftly by the receding of our rights. the new laws coming through georgia and arizona and florida and in 43 total states don't come as a surprise to many black democratic voters because we have seen this type of behavior
in statehouses. this is why it's so important we participate in loek and national level politics, because what happens, the people we put in the pipeline, they mean something, and those folks tend to run for presidency. those are correlations between our behavior and how it plays out on the national level. >> profession sort glaude, we see these racist impulses of these people as revealed in this study, but it combines with a stunning lack of mental processing ability and this complete inability to tell the difference from fact versus fiction when donald trump speaks. >> that's consistent with politics as such, right? we know there's a way in which people play on resentments, grievances, on fears. it actually presupposes an ill-informed electorate.
i want to note, the point the study makes is this is criminal violence, not political violence. these aren't going anywhere, because they're putting pressure to bear on standard or traditional conceptions of what this country is or what it's supposed to be. this political violence, lawrences isn't going anywhere. that's the warning that we see. >> professor eddie glaude and professor christina greer, thank you very much for joining us tonight. "the 11th hour with brian williams" starts right now. good evening once again. i'm ali velshi in for brian williams. there is breaking news about trump act lite matt gaetz. now under investigation for possible sex trafficking. tonight "the new york times" reveals gaetz was looking to get a blanket