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tv   The Last Word With Lawrence O Donnell  MSNBC  April 8, 2021 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT

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move your xfinity services without breaking a sweat. xfinity makes moving easy. go online to transfer your services in about a minute. get started today. that does it for us tonight. thank you very much for watching. rachel will be back here tomorrow, not here, i am in my baseball. you know what i mean. i will see you at 4:00 eastern tomorrow. now is time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnel. >> i am guessing nicole by the sound of your voice because there is nothing in my monitor right now.
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thank you very much for filling in for rachel tonight on a night she needed to take off. >> thank you, lawrence. >> i will be watching tomorrow, nicole. >> well, today is day 9 of the trial of derek chauvin for the murder of george floyd. the most important expert testimony when dr. martin tobin took the stand. >> how long have you been a physician? >> 45 years. >> where did you go to school? >> i went to medical school in dublin and ireland and i took my degree there. >> not that anybody noticed the accent but are you from dublin? >> no, i am from a small
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village. >> 662 people live in the town of fredford. he went to medical school before getting additional training in london and now in chicago. martin tobin has become one of the leading authorities on pulmonary. he's an expert on how we stay alive moment to moment by breathing. dr. tobin's clarity and authority effortlessly held everyone in his grip for every second that he was speaking. >> how long can the brain go without oxygen. >> if you stop the flow of oxygen to the brain, you lose
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consciousness in eight seconds. >> eight seconds. the stun silence that you heard after dr. tobin spoke was exactly 8 seconds long. that's how much time it takes from george floyd going to say "i can't breathe" to dying. eight seconds. >> so it tells you how dangerous the concept of if you can't breathe or can speak, you can speak. yes, it is true but highly misleading. the cause of death is a low level of oxygen that caused the
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brain damaged and the heart to stop. >> dr. tobin delivered the most single most haunting line of expert testimony in the trial so far when he identified the precise moment when the life goes out of george floyd's body. frazier held up her phone to record video of derek chauvin's knee on floyd's neck. she testified that she could not sleep at night and witnessing what has happened. the action that frazier did take enable martin tobin to identify that haunting moment. today in court, the work of a 17-years-old girl from minneapolis teamed up with the
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world renowned of science to deliver in the trial is the video. >> you can see his eyes and conscious and you see that he's not. that's the moment the life goes out of his body. >> dr. tobin says no one could have survived what george floyd was subjected to. >> a healthy person subjected to mr. floyd was subjected would have died. >> dr. tobin testified nothing in george floyd's history contributed to his death or drug use. dr. tobin testified that the
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police officers' weight holding down george floyd essentially shutdown his left lung. >> because of the knee that was rammed in against the left side of his chest, stiemts the knee was down on the arm or against the chest so this would have the same effect so basically on the left side of his lungs, it was almost to the effect if a surgeon had gone in and remove the lung. >> dr. tobin gave the jury a new important time measurement using police body cam video that was shown, that the amount of time when george floyd takes his last breath to when derek chauvin takes his knee off george floyd's neck was three 3
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minutes, 27 seconds. >> when he last takes a breath, the knee remains for another 3 minutes and 27 seconds. after there is no pulse, the knee remains on the neck for another 2 minutes and 44 seconds after the officers found themselves there is no pulse, the knee remains on the neck another 2 minutes and 44 seconds. >> thank you dr. tobin. no further question. >> melissa murray, she's an msnbc contributor and with us, the director of the 21st century, a former new york city police detective.
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professor murray, let me begin with you, this testimony we heard today many commentaries already said of the most powerful expert testimony yet and especially in a case where the entire defense has presented in the opening statement by defense consult is going to be about cause of death. >> i think that's exactly right, lawrence, not only was this the most important expert testimony we have heard was the most effective. everything reporters have said is that jury was absolutely wrapped as dr. tobin walked them through the entire 9 minutes and 29 seconds that george floyd was prone on the ground and explains to them in lament term that asphyxiation were the cause of death. the first question was whether officer chauvin's conduct was
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the cause of floyd's death. first determining that cause of death is absolutely critical. >> and, the examples that dr. tobin reached for when he was trying to make a medical point to this jury were so assessable and made so much sense. he talked about the absence of bruising which the defense is going to want to make a lot, they'll make that a major issue, an absent of bruising to the neck on george floyd. he used the example of going to church to make that point about that. let's listen to that. >> there were a reference made of the absence of bruising on the neck during the autopsy. >> does it make a difference? no. when i go to church, i sit on a
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hard bank, i would not bruise on my bottoms. this was static force. it is not as if somebody is jamming against it so you would not expect anything in way of bruising. >> your reaction to that? >> i thought quite amazing. expert witness can kill you because they aroverly technical. dr. tobin the way he described this important subject matter, the best professor you ever had. wow, i am riveted to my seat and i really understand every word this person is saying even though the subject matter is so complicated. he's the first person to address the lack of bruising on the bottom. every time the defense had an opportunity, they made a point
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about that. it seems like common sense it would be bruising but he gave this explanation that really hit home. those are the things that tend to stick with people. more so than the technical description. >> and professor murray, i think we can detect a pattern here where a lead prosecutor jerry blackwell who's especially hired just for this case seems to be the one that gets up to handle the most important moments of the trial. if professor blackwell is on his feet, pay attention, this is a very important moment. he delivered the opening statement for the prosecution and he has stepped in on days like today for this kind of crucial testimony. >> that's exactly right. a trial is nothing more than a choreograph story-telling sessions between the lawyers and
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the jury. the jury knows that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in order to secure a conviction here. again, they're doing a master full job of being consistent on that message to the jury. >> and another thing we heard from dr. tobin today was what does not show in the autopsy report and that could be an important as what's in an autopsy report. he made the point that there actually is not a way of seeing the loss of oxygen in an autopsy report. that does not leave a fingerprint. >> let's listen to the way he said that. >> no oxygen is a functional thing like -- it does not leave a fingerprint. it is something that happens. it won't leave any fingerprints
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afterwards, you don't see it. >> does not mean the person did not die from low oxygen. >> absolutely not. if you are taking somebody and suffocating them with a pillow and it is clear to you that after you suffocated the person that's dead from the pillow, you are not going to see the effect of being dead from low oxygen. >> another example that dr. tobin able to make this so clear for the jury. >> what the prosecution was doing to dr. tobin was attacking the defense's case before they had an opportunity to put it on. the defense had been pointing to this issues surrounding whether it was a lack of oxygen or not a lack of oxygen. what was not found in the body and trying to get the jury to draw inferences, knowing what the theory is going to be, is
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your job to preempt that attack. that's what the prosecution did today by putting dr. tobin on the stand, they did it in a artful manner. prosecution i thought was rather masterful gave a redirect short and straight to the point. the milliseconds. did it matter? it was crisp and that was what the jury was left with. >> the way jerry blackwell comes back on redistrict after there is a cross-examination. >> it is very crisp.
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the other point of this system that's critically important in anticipating the defense's case to come is a battle of the medical examiner. the medical examiner is going to be a key part of the defense case. going forward this is not caused by a lack of oxygen but rather a heart attack. they never saw mr. floyd in a prone position, they did not know what to look for what was hiding in plain site of the low level of oxygen was the cause of death. they anticipated it and rebutted it before the defense had a chance to make the case. >> we have to go to a break. i want to ask you about police training. today dr. tobin destroyed the idea that if you can speak, you can breathe. we heard in police training that has been as basic message in
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training. when you were trained for the nypd, was that the theory at the time? if they can speak, they can breathe? >> it goes further than that. it was no trailing with regards to what asphyxiation looks like. what will happen if someone is being choked out so to speak. this was many years ago and training has involved. something i have stressed is while i have great respect for our men and women, they're police officers, it may be a time to integrate more civilians into the training process, perhaps someone like dr. tobin being an effective person to start with. >> law professor and kirk halter, thank you both for joining our discussion. thank you. >> matt gaetz had a bad day in
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court today even though he was not in court. his friend, joel greenberg was. greenberg could provide information of matt gaetz for sex trafficking of a minor. andrew wiseman joins us next. wt i mean it... uh-oh, sorry... oh... what? i'm an emu! no, buddy! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ antibacterial or moisturizing body wash? definitely moisturizer! antibacterial can i have both? new dove care & protect body wash eliminates 99% of bacteria and moisturizes for hours two for one! can i keep it? new dove care & protect, zero compromise!
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oh i don't think that was ever in question. ...and stream must-see disney new releases! people need this symbol. where do we start? find the best in entertainment all in one place, with disney plus now on xfinity! a way better way to watch. the justice department prosecutors may have a key witness in the federal investigation of matt gaetz. that new witness could be matt gaetz's friend, joel greenberg. he currently faces 12 years in prison for charges of sex trafficking of a minor as well as stalking and bribery and defrauding the pandemic related paycheck protection program. during a procedural hearing today in the case against him blasted only six minutes, lawyers for greenberg and the
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federal government said they expect the case to resolve with a plea. here is what joel greenberg's attorney said outside the courthouse today in florida. >> does matt gaetz have anything to worry about? >> it comes from what happens today in court. >> does he have anything to worry about? >> well, from your mind? >> based on what your client does. >> i kept if i kept on talking and talking, i would avoid these questions and not to say -- i am sure matt gaetz is not feeling comfortable today. >> yes, it was a strange camera
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angle. joel greenberg did not say whether his clients provided information about matt gaetz to prosecutors. greenberg is unique any positioned to do that. the new york times reported that greenberg who has known gaetz since 2017. how the two men bought and used drugs like ecstasy. congressman gaetz has denied that he violated any loss. joining us now is andrew wiseman, former fbi and former prosecutor and the former member of the mueller investigation. andrew, you are reading on where this situation, i don't even know what to call it. i can't call it the gaetz's
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case. were this situation as of tonight with a possible guilty plea in the greenberg's case. >> a lot of people trying to be careful when reading tea leaves at this point. >> there is no question of a big tea leave for reading. for weeks we have been looking for very good paper trail. there is going to be records of financial transactions. it seems to be witnesses whether in congress or staffers for even matt gaetz who may be witnesses. there is going to be victims because the women who were involved were interviewed. today signalled something that although it is not clear yet, it is certainly looking like greenberg will be a cooperating witness. as your viewers and you know having an insider is critical.
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with somebody like mr. greenberg, the challenge is going to make sure if they can corroborate what he says. you can never go to trial based on his words. if he ends up flipping, that's a huge development. >> and i have to say when i see who your lawyer is, i get a sense of this. that lawyer today outside in orlando rambling on on questions that he should not have responded to at all. it indicates that we could hear all strange things we can hear from this case. >> there is no question that you would expect him to be more polished or prepared. >> speak or not speak.
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the tip off i think is he's really good at contemplate cooperating. it was not the statement of somebody who was planning to fight the government and planning on either defending themselves or trying to anticipate what they'll say at sentencing. what can i say but not really hurt the government so i think that was the -- >> and so and go to the situation that's developing where donald trump and matt gaetz seemed to be in a race. and there is matt gaetz i guess
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kind of hoping for some sort of public encouragement from donald trump that he's not really getting. >> yeah, i think one of the things that this is education for your audience in terms of power cases, joel greenberg was facing a host of charges. he was on his third indictment. he's facing an enormous time. what the manhattan is trying to do is flip insiders like the trump organization, to do that they need to develop the same kind of case that you see prosecutor in florida developed with respect to greenberg because that's how you flip people. >> matt gaetz still has not said anything that goes straight with
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accusation. >> well, wait and see what the government has and poke holes in it. right now just giving blanket denials is a smart strategy and then wait to see what happens but you know that's not an end resolve position to be in at this point. all signs are that he is going to be charged. one thing i would point out that the time he has spoken where he's given specifics which has to be the bizarre claims. the sex trafficking statue itself has an obstruction
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provision and general obstruction charge. it is certainly something that prosecutors look at. whether they get to the end of the road, we'll see. >> andrew wiseman, thank you for joining us tonight. we always appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> coming up, it could be as matt gaetz is now in a race with donald trump to see who could become a criminal defendant first. donald trump has a bit of a head start, he has hired a new criminal defense lawyer as the manhattan attorney subpoenaed documents from the former daughter-in-law of donald trump's accountant. former lead council to the house intelligence committee during donald trump's first impeachment inquiry, daniel goldman, will join us next. l goldman, will join us next
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because the manhattan grand jury investigating donald trump and his business is not full of republican senators, donald
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trump needs real criminal defense lawyer to handle that case. the wall street journal reports trump organization hired a new lawyer. the former daughter-in-law of trump's accountant alan weisselberg handed over important documents. she told the washington post, "my knowledge of the document and my voice connects the flow of money from various banks and personal finances that is paid into a trump organization. >> daniel goldman is joining us now, the lead council of the house intelligence committee during president trump's first impeachment inquiry.
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>> you know all of these players in the new york criminal ba. what do you make of the new hiring on the trump's side. >> i find it interesting. >> that's not ron's forte. he's really a child lawyer and outstanding and is not someone that the trump organization is bringing into steal the tax returns and bank records. that's not what he does. that tells me they are gearing up for some sort of significant defense work that needs to be done and in light of the information that came out about, and do you means and clearly being eager to provide not only the documents but her on testimony about what her
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ex-husband and perhaps her ex-father-in-law have said. it is an indication that this investigation is certainly heating up. >> one of the interesting notes here is that the new hire by the trump's team used to be a law partner. >> that's right. they practice today in the '80s. the head of all the prosecutors. i don't read much unto that. long-term colleagues and a variety of different cases and
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traveled in a lot of it the same and public corruption, that's my guess as to why ron was brought in. lawrence, as andrew just said in the last segment of how you build a case, it is interesting that alan weisselberg is also in the hot seat. he also works for the trump administration. one way to get your way to work your way up is you start low on the ladder so to speak and weisselberg could be the target for charges. there may be other white collar type of fraud cases that they're looking into. if you charge berry, does berry start to cooperate against
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others and the prosecution. >> this is prosecution 101 of what's going on with good and in this case. smoo. >> is there a possibility for a plea agreement. with donald trump, we know it would be impossible. it would be impossible for him to agree to some kind of guilty plea in manhattan or georgia and that he's strategy is going to be fight it out in court. >> the real question is that right now as i kind of look at this from the outside. we know that donald trump does not e-mail. in order to charge donald trump particularly with tax fraud case and bank fraud, you are going to
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need a cooperating witness. it is a for sure thing that's what you will need in order to prove any cases against him. that's why weisselberg seems to be a key professional defendant or potential witness. without someone like him, i think it is very hard to make the case against donald trump. >> daniel, thank you so much for your expertise on the working of criminal prosecutions in new york. >> my pleasure, lawrence. >> thank you for having me. >> congressman was in the garden today. ten people were murdered in a super market. >> last month, congress magoose,
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today in the rose garden with guests that included members of congress and families of gun violence victims and the survivors of gun violence. president biden announced a series of executive orders to reduce gun violence. >> our flags was still flying at half staff for the victims of horrific murder of eight asian-american people in georgia. ten more lives were taken in a mass murder of colorado. you probably didn't hear it, between those two incidents less than one week apart, more than 850 additional shootings, 850 that took the lives of more than 250 people.
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left 500 injured. this is an epidemic for god's sake. >> before the president's speak, there was a mass shooting in north carolina and after the president's speech today there was another mass shooting in texas, one person has died and four people in critical condition. one of the president's orders will stop the prolegislative ghost guns. joining us now was democratic
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congressman magoose. what was it like being in the courthouse today? >> i think that was certainly the case and my observation as well during this critically important ceremony. i am grateful for the president to take action, it has been a difficult few weeks here in boulder, colorado where our community is reeling at the kings super market. >> a number of us urging the president to use steps to save lives.
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concealable assault styled weapons had been used by the shooter here if boulder as well as in dayton, ohio and other locations across the country where tragedies like these have occurred and we are grateful that the president took that step and he would take that common sense measures and heighten regulations. and in addition to a number of other important steps today. it is a very important day. to underscore there is a lot more that we have to do. >> the president mentioned today that when he was a senator in the early 1990s, he managed to get past a ban of assault weapons. it was a ten-year ban, that was the deal they would have to make. in order to get it past, it worked. it shows to reduce the use of
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those weapons and these kinds of mass killings. because george w. bush was elected president when that ten-year expired, no action was taken to extend that ban. this president would like to bring it back. >> i certainly agree with it. the fact that the president is willing to so boldly state the need for reinstatement of these assault weapons. >> the efficacy of the weapon ban was in exact activity 1994 clearly worked in our country and reduce the persuasiveness of mass shootings. i would also say what has changed unfortunately is that the congress has hacked the political hill to do what it did successfully 25 years ago.
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>> i believe conversations with others and folks are tired of excuses. they are finally making progress in our community and saving lives. >> one thing i was struck by the president was doing everything he can at the executive order level and recognizing it is not enough. he does not come out and say problem solved, he lays out the aspirations he has legislatively beyond the executive order. >> obviously the president brought ors and they'll make a difference. i believe these executive orders issued today will save looifrs. >> at the end of the day, it is going to take the united states congress to muster these wheels
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that the american public so broadly support. his willingness to use the bully puppet to demand and implore. a welcome action today zn certainly i am hopeful that we can build on that in the coming weeks and months. >> congressman jone maguse. >> thank you, lawrence. >> we'll be joined by the person who's long more appearances on this program than none. >> president obama thanked her for her work and help passing her. >> and joe biden, it says sign
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sister simone campbell announced she has completed her work as an executive director for catholic social justice and will be moving onto other adventures that may or may not involve nuns on the bus. she published what came to be known as "the nuns letter." >> it will uphold long standing and conscious and make the historic new investment of $250 million in support of support women.
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this is the real pro-life stands and we as catholics are all for it. >> president obama thanks sister shimon privately. >> in 2012, sister simone spoke at the convention >> i meet jeannie's sister. >> she lost her health and she died unnecessarily. that's tragic. it is wrong. >> the affordable care act will cover people like margaret. >> president obama in lit sister simone into the white house. in 2014 she testified and shared by fellow catholic congressman
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pie i don't know. paul ryan. >> everyone has the right to eat and in our position, a government possibility to ensure everyone's capacity to eat. >> joining us now is sister simone campbell. a former director of the catholics of efficacy group. sister simone, does this mean you have more or less time to be on the bus? >> well, lauren it is going to be interesting to see. i am going to take a vacation for a little bit. i have four months off of sabbatical and we'll see what's new. >> i know you will be active but moderator, in the discussion that you helped organize. you have such a range of interests that does not always
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gets expressed in these kinds of segments that we do. what have we learned dealing with washington that you want to bring into the rest of your work. >> learning from the rural roundtables as from the bus, what we have learned is that listening to people around the country, people who ordinarily don't get hurt and bringing those messages back to d.c. is critically important. we are informing congress and the administration about the reality on the ground. we can make good change fore the entire nation. broad ban is one of those issues being picked up now. as a national issue, we need to address that and ensure that all have access and we know that because of our conversations around the country. >> in leaving this job, certain
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things happen like you get a letter from the president of the united states, i want to read what president biden said in his letter to you as you stepped down from this job. >> he said as catholics we are called to serve rather than be. love our neighbors, you exemplify these tenants of our faith. i am so grateful for everything that thank you do. your support and friendship mean the world to me. god bless you. >> what was it like when receive the letter? >> i was so touched by it. i knew the president values his faith deeply. and to think that i have been a support to him in making challenging decisions and caring so passionately for the person
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medium, i was humbled and heartened by it. i go a tear or two in my eyes. it just really touched me. >> the work that needs to be done by the biden administration, what do you see as their biggest challenge? >> one of the big challenges is they're not mentioning the last president and the fact that the government itself is decimated because of the policies of the last administration. rather than naming that problem, they're just working to make change. that shows upmost in immigration. the challenge of addressing immigration at the border are huge. and we need to both six the law in congress as well as a system
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that can respond with compassion and entirety to the people at the border. >> we'll have to hear more from you about that is on the program. >> sister simone gets tonight's last word. "the 11th hour" with brian williams starts now. good evening once again, i'm ali velshi in for brian williams on this, day 79 of the biden administration. florida congressman matt gaetz is now facing a new and potentially much more serious level of legal jeopardy. he's under federal investigation for potential sex trafficking, possibly involving a minor, and that case grew out of a broader probe involving a close associate and ally, a man named joel greenberg who's facing an array of federal charges himself, also including sex trafficking. it appears