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tv   The Reid Out  MSNBC  April 13, 2021 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT

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@thebeatwith arimelber. without further ado i'm signing off. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. good evening, everyone. we begin "the reidout" tension bubbling over after two nights of protest following the shooting of daunte wright during a traffic stop in brooklyn center on sunday. outraged over the needless death of yet another black person in america at the hands of law enforcement, demonstrators last night gathered outside police headquarters where they engaged in a tense standoff and were met with tear gas. tonight the cities of minneapolis, st. paul and brooklyn center have all imposed curfews in anticipation of further protests. this comes as the defense began presenting their case today in the derek chauvin murder trial just across town in downtown minneapolis. word also seems clear chauffeur's lawyers are intent on putting the victim on trial highlighting george floyd's
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prior arrest and assailing his character. the wright family together with the floyd family today held a press conference with attorney ben crump. wright's grieving mother described the moment she called to see if he was okay only to find out he had been fatally shot. >> i never imagined this is what was going to happen. i just thought maybe he was being arrested and then when i called back, the girl that he had in the car answered the phone and it was on a facetime and she said -- she was crying and screaming and she said that they shot him and that she pointed the phone towards the driver's seat and my son was laying there unresponsive. >> my lord. >> that is the last time i seen my son. that's the last time i heard from my son and i have had no explanation since then. >> daunte wright's aunt expressed outrage over the loss of her nephew who left behind a 1-year-old child. >> they murdered my nephew.
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she killed my nephew. my nephew was 20. did y'all not see my little great nephew? did y'all not see that beautiful baby? not over a mistake, over murder. >> daunte's aunt said she had a personal connection to george floyd. >> and the craziest thing is to find out today that my family has connections with this man, to this family. his girlfriend was a teacher for my nephew. my lord. >> the officer who shot and killed daunte wright is kimberly potter. a 26-year-old veteran of the brooklyn center police department who had also served as president to the police union. yesterday and again this morning brooklyn center mayor mike elliott made clear that potter should be fired. and he had the power to do so.
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that's because the city council granted the mayor command authority over the agency last night. they even recommended that officer potter be fired. instead we learned from mayor elliott in a chaotic press conference today that potter had resigned. a move that could preserve her pension. but the mayor seemed unclear of the implications that have resignation which is a distinctly different thing than being fired. >> since officer potter was allowed to resign is she allowed to keep her pension and can she join another police department? >> you know, i do not have the answer to that. >> the city, did they expect her to resign? >> we did not ask her to resign. that was a decision she made. >> when did she make this decision and did she get word that you were planning to terminate her? >> i do not know if she got wind of an impending termination or not. mayor elliott later clarified he
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had not necessarily accepted her resignation. but the problem is it's not uncommon for bad officers to resign, keep their pensions and move from one police department to another. that's what happened with the ohio police officer who resigned from his position under scrutiny of his competence then moved on to cleveland where he wound up leaping from a police krugz and gunning down tamir rice back in 2014. and as a former president of the police union kimberly potter would certainly not whether resigning would help preserve her future job prospects. multiple outlets pointed out she played a role in advising officers who were involved in shooting and killing another black victim in 2019. potter was first at the scene where she instructed the two officers responsible for shooting and killing the man who was on the autism spectrum to get into separate squad car, ton off their body worn cameras and not talk to each other according to the report. on top of potter's resignation the brooklyn center police chief also resigned just a day after he characterized the wright
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shooting as an accident. he said potter had confused the holster containing her tase with the one holding her firearm. never mind that there's a dramatic difference in weight between a plastic taser and deadly weapon and that because of where the holsters are placed in that department, it was a simple question of snowing your left hand from your right hand. now "the new york times" is reporting that it was a more common problem among police than we necessarily knew with at least 12 documented incidents since 2001. unfortunately in severe cases the officer dis not serve much jail time or any. joining me now from brooklyn center, minnesota, is nbc news correspondent ron allen. ron, give us a sense of the situation there. i can see crowds massed behind you. >> the battle lines are drawn again, yes, there is a crowd back there. they've been gathering for the last hour or so. protests, the curfew still several hours away here and over
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on this other side here in front of police headquarters you can see that the national guard are here backing up and reinforcing the police department. so we've been seeing them bring in reinforcements all afternoon. so there's still a lot of anger. there's still a lot of frustration. there's still a lot of outrage out here. yes, it was positive but in the protesters will tell you the officer resigned, the police chief resigned but they want to see her prosecuted and we've been hearing from local prosecutors that a decision about that, may come as soon as tomorrow. they're reviewing the case but it's another example perhaps of how authorities here are trying to move quickly, trying to be transparent about what they're doing to try and bring calm to this city. also tonight, it will be interesting to see how aggressive the police are when they -- if they choose to disperse the crowds. the city council here yesterday passed a resolution banning the use of tear gas and other
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chemical agents and also banning -- trying to basically make the situation here less hostile. but, again, now we see officers, police, national guard in military fatigues so there is an air of the military here which is the thing that a lot of protesters are complaining about. and you heard the families today. george floyd's relatives, daunte wright's family, you saw the grief and the pain. they're trying to support each other. we had an interesting chat this afternoon with china whitaker who is the mother of wright's little boy whose name is daunte, as well. cute little boy who's 1. he'll be 2 in july and, you know, to hear her talk about how this little boy will have to
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grow up without a father and how daunte, she says, was such a role model. he was a hard working doting father who was very present in his son's life. just a very emotional conversation we had with her. that really drove home, you know, protesters are one thing and police and all that another thing but when you get down to just the families and the individuals who are devastated by what has happened here and how their lives have been changed forever it's just very moving to see, but the bottom line is, people here are hoping for some progress. they want to see this woman prosecuted. they want to see justice. you know, so many people have said, you know, there wasn't due process for daunte, so there shouldn't be this slow process for this officer as well. they want to see justice happen quickly and they're going to be out here again tonight. we'll see what happens when curfew comes whether the police let this go or whether they as they did last night disperse the crowd, tear gas, rubber bullets
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and move people out of here. >> yeah. >> joy. >> ron allen, thank you so much, my friend. appreciate your reporting. with us ralph godby and jonathan capehart host of "the sunday show" on msnbc. i want to start with maybe the most obvious question, chief godby. i want to put up a "new york times" graphic showing the police service weapons, a glock service weapon and a taser and, you know, taser is a brand name. they can look different. they can have different shapes and different colors, but generally the same shape but can come in different colors but this is "the new york times" depiction of what a taser looks like and a typical police service weapon looks like. are police officers supposed to be familiar enough with their weapon, their service weapon to know it's not a taser? >> unequivocally, joy. watching that press conference yesterday as a former chief, my blood was boiling. first for the chief who should
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have resigned and i don't know if he resigned in lieu of termination but he did a horrible job yesterday representing what happened in that community and daunte's murder. the weight between a gun and a conducted electrical device, i.e., a taser, it is so distinctly different. unfortunately after the fruitvale incident with oscar grant when that was the reported reason why he was killed, it became a training standard and a policy standard that the taser is worn on the opposite side or your weak hand side, it's a cross draw function so for her to say that it was an accident, it is really incredulous to me at this time and i have to see an hear a lot more before i'm convinced this was an accident and then the second point, i think it's very important for your viewers to understand, there's no such thing as an accidental shooting. you have to purposefully put
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your finger in a trigger guard and the amount of pound pressure to pull that trigger is so much different than it is for a taser. so the fact that the officer resigned, i'm suspect about that because that's preservation of a pension that has nothing to do with any kind of altruism or any kind of regret. now for the loss of life of daunte wright. >> yeah, i don't think she expressed any in her resignation letter. jonathan, you know, if i worked at a fast food restaurant and had a mouse problem and i accidentally put mouse poison in the mcflurries, it would take about four seconds for my manager to fire me because i poisoned the mcflurries and somebody died. it's a problem to me and i want to you comment on in that it is -- that it takes so much to try to remove a bad police
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officer even after they rack up complaints as we saw in the derek chauvin case where he had 17 complaints in his 19 years it's so difficult to remove a bad police officer and that one could in theory resign, preserve her pension and do like the police officer who killed tamir rice did. one other question, tulsa, a year after the aquist tall officer shelby, betty shelby who was acquitted in shooting terence crutcher in 2016, she bopped on over to another city and became a new deputy and got herself a new pension. your thoughts? >> well, this gets to something that i know you've talked about before, joy, and the police chief knows about as well and that's police contracts. i mean, it is the police contracts that make it, oh, so difficult for police -- for police departments, for municipalities to rid themselves
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of bad cops, and bad cops are few compared to the overall size of police forces around the country, but those bad cops do bad things and it should not be such a high hurdle or impossible task to protect the community from a police officer that has done harm to the community. and i watched that video. i try not to watch many of these videos because there have been too many. there have been too many accidents when it comes to african-americans, but when you watch her body cam video, she has that gun in her hand for an awfully long time. and to my mind, you ought to know at that point after ten seconds whether what you have in your hand is a gun or a taser and when she's screaming, i'll tase you, taser, taser, taser, you can see the gun in the
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frame. so for the police chief to come out -- former police chief to come out and say this was an accidental shooting is unacceptable and the fact that he and officer potter, former officer potter were able to resign, that question at the press conference today was very important, does she get to keep her pension, does she get to go to another jurisdiction because another jurisdiction is now going to have to worry about this cop in their ranks, but also why didn't the mayor know the answer to that question? and why didn't he fire her after the council gave him the power to do so? i feel -- i went to college in minnesota. i love minnesota. i have relatives in minnesota, in-laws in minnesota. i really feel for the people of brooklyn center. >> amen, jonathan, i wish you could scootch up next to me if
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it wasn't covid and could ask the mayor together because he's supposed to be on later. you could sit here or across six feet and, yes, i have the same question, sir. a lot of questions, you wonder why people want to get rid of these police officers' bills of rights because it keeps bad cops in place. ralph godby, former chief and jonathan capehart, thank you. much more on the killing of daunte wright. there are mounting questions tonight about what legal consequences the officer who shot him will face. plus, after a series of powerful prosecution witnesses the defense in the derek chauvin murder trial begins and it's pretty much what you'd expect. i felt that derek chauvin was justified, was acting with objective reasonableness. >> uh-huh. uh-huh. and the government hits the pause button on the johnson & johnson vaccine. how big of a deal is this as covid cases continue to spike in some areas. "the reidout" continues after this. ter this since suzie's got goals, she'll want a plan to reach them.
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there's just a lot of chaos going on right now. we're just trying to wrap our heads around the situation and try and create some calm, right, and that can kind of transition into we'd like some calm for the community, just to pause and community calming as we try and wrap our heads around the entire situation. >> brooklyn center, minnesota, new acting police chief got an earful from community members who joined in at the city's press conference today. >> i'm just really concerned that the acting chief here, he can't wrap his head around that? i wrap my head around it every day. you can't wrap your head around it? but you go home and you wrap your arms around your kids every day. every day. i'm going to need you to wrap your mind around it. i'm gonna need you to get in
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tune. i'm going to need you to get your boots on the ground and care about black, brown and indigenous bodies. you don't know what it feels like. i'm sick of you all. you can take the trash out but it has a way of recycling itself. >> at one point the acting chief who seemed well in over his head cited his bringing food to community members as community outreach which an organizer laid out as meaningless. >> we want to reach out to the community, we do that on a regular basis. we will continue to do that. offering, you know, at times we offer food to engage with our citizens and kind of interact and get to know them -- >> i don't need your police officers to know me and my family before they humanize and respect me. i need them to do their job and their job is to protect and serve. they don't need to know me to serve. the whole food thing and everything else, that means nothing. >> wow. and yet another community member said brooklyn center feld like a
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sundown to you, the name for towns where black people couldn't be out after sundown. >> what can you do going forward to make sure that this racial profiling because right now brooklyn center looks like a sundowntown, black people better not be traveling after sundown. >> katie fang, trial own joins me and joyce vance and we were supposed to have the mayor of the city of brooklyn center, mayor mike elliott, but he suddenly was unavailable. we received information to our booking team that said there's a situation that he's dealing with and he's not doing any media tonight. so that was an interesting development so i want to really thank katie and joyce for actually being in a bit early to deal with what he should have been dealing with. he had a rough day today. it was a difficult day to be him. and, katie, i want to go through
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just a few of these things just to start off. first of all, the fact that this young man was pulled over for apparently having a dangling air freshener in his car and then they said there was a tag violation except that we know because of covid there's been delays in making sure that automobile tags are given out in a prompt manner because it's something you have to physically do in an office and even if the thing that he had a warrant out for, at least i've seen in reporting it was a misdemeanor so it wasn't like he was some sort of serious master criminal, give me looking at this as an attorney of how likely -- i'll ask each but first katie and then joyce, how likely does it look like something we'll see a prosecution come out of? >> look, you know, unfortunately, i have to say as a former prosecutor in two different jurisdictions we had several cases that were based
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upon the stops that were made for the broken taillight being out, the expired tag, the too dark tips and that reasonable suspicion to effect that traffic stop or to stop that person in the car sometimes gives rise to probable cause to actually effect the arrest, so from a pure procedural standpoint from law enforcement, if there was something wrong, then stopping vehicle was actually okay but then we actually get into the idea that they're pretext wall, that they're really not the important issue, the dangling of the air freshener in and of itself is not a crime or a traffic offense, it's the driving while black pretext is what we have going on here, right? and, unfortunately, we have this occurring less than ten miles away from where the derek chauvin trial is going on, so we'd like to expect that there would be a criminal prosecution at a minimum of manslaughter of
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former officer kim potter, but above that and beyond the criminal prosecution briefly, joy, i'd like to touch on this, it's the idea of the abolishing of qualified immunity. the idea that when you can't hit them where it hurts the most your pocket sometimes, where you can't sue for the violation of civil rights because there's this immunity afforded to officers that are violating civil rights on a daily basis, that's really something that gives people this carte blanche idea they can run around as cops and do the wrong thing and so i think that we need to have a conversation. i know in minnesota just a couple of weeks ago the house passed a new bill, it doesn't have a sister accompaniment yet that allows for a cause of action civilly to sue a cop or a peace officer for the violation of a constitutional right. but that's just, you know, in the backyard of minnesota. we need to see this across the united states and so i think that i'd like to see a criminal prosecution but i'd love to see a civil case because i think that's where people get motivated unfortunately these
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days which is money. >> they're always compounding thing, important point. in virginia we see lieutenant nazario is personally suing the two officers who stopped him claiming a fourth amendment violation suing them individually and i believe the department. some states you can. some states you can't. some have strong police bill of rights which afford the police union which is the last super strong powerful union in the country, they have such a symbiotic relationship with prosecutors, they have such empathy because they are team members with prosecutors and there are so very few types people get prosecuted then you look at brooklyn center which is 29% black, it has the second highest perjury of black residents in all cities in minnesota, one of only two nonmajority white. so it's in a particular area and you see police being told stop a lot of people because as katie said it's pretext wall.
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you may find other things you can fine people over. in ferguson, missouri, used this for revenue so black people become just income generators, we just stop them all until we get enough crimes to charge. >> brooklyn center reminds me so strongly, joy, of ferguson and it was something that mayor elliott said at the press conference today that really grabbed my attention, he made the point that none of their police officers live inside of the city. >> yep. >> that was what happened in ferguson and we all know that that's what really makes it so much easier for these departments to objectify people here where you have a lot of white police officers who don't live in the city, as you point out it become a profit making mechanism so it goes unchecked for far too long. what this really points out is how critical it is for joe biden and merrick garland to get their ducks in a row at the justice department and get some of their
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senior level people confirmed by the senate and in place because it's clear that doj will have a lot of work on its hands going back to the concept decree process that's used to transform entire police departments to require them to not just pay lip service but to actually update use of force policies to train officers to engage in communities so, you know, your original question was will there be a prosecution? i think there will likely be one here. federal law which will be changed if the george floyd act passes in the senate as it has in the house will make it easier for federal prosecutors to prosecute. right now it's really difficult because you have to prove a malicious intent to deprive someone of their civil rights and that's a heavy standard but the state of minnesota has shown that it's capable of prosecuting. the problem is it looks more like a manslaughter or maybe
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even some sort of a negligence charge than a murder. >> yeah. i feel like the ghost of philando castile which happened in that state is hovering over but if police departments hired people that were color-blind in the administration of justice and weren't actually color-blind and can't tell the difference between a taser and a glock. the defense begins its case in the derek chauvin case trying to blame george floyd himself for dying under chauvin's knee. stay with us. this is wealth. ♪ ♪ this is worth. that takes wealth. but this is worth. and that - that's actually worth more than you think. don't open that. wealth is important, and we can help you build it. but it's what you do with it, that makes life worth living. principal. for all it's worth.
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the defense wasted no time today putting george floyd on trial for his own murder. forgetting apparently that this is, if fact, the murder trial of former minneapolis police officer derek chauvin. in just the first day of the defense's case we already heard all the excuses including floyd's past drug use, the superhuman black man stereotype of excited delirium and cannot forget the menacing girl including that 9-year-old girl. surprisingly the judge allowed the defense to question a former police officer and paramedic not from the deadly 2020 incident but from a prior drug arrest in 2019 when he was suspected of consuming pills. the defense was allowed to show body cam video of that arrest but you know what's different, george floyd was not thrown to the ground or put in a prone position or had an officer's knee on his neck for more than nine minutes and, surprise, he survived that encounter.
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the defense has tried to make the case that his death was caused by his drug use, you would think that during his 2019 arrest when he consumed substances that were controlled he would have presented some of the same medical symptoms he did under chauvin's knee. >> you indicate his respiratory effort was normal? >> correct. >> he was not in respiratory distress, correct. >> no. >> his blood oxygen normal, correct? >> yes. >> his heart rhythm was regular or normal, right? >> correct. >> he didn't stop breathing. >> no. >> his heart didn't stop. >> no. >> he didn't go into cardiac arrest. >> no. >> back with me are katie fang and joyce vance. let's start with barry brood, one of the experts called. he is an expert you might not remember but the case he most
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testified in, laquan mcdonald that he testified it was a legitimate force of force to shoot him 16 times. officer van dyke in that case was convicted of second degree murder and aggravated battery. he shot a man running away 16 times. barry thought that was a perfectly fine use of force. he's attempting to explain how keeping him in the prone position was not use of force at all because it doesn't hurt at all. >> the maintaining of the prone control to me is not a use of force. >> why is it not a use of force? >> that's a control technique. without it -- it doesn't hurt. >> i need to ask you, if you believe that it is unlikely that orienting yourself on top of a person on the pavement with both legs is unlikely to produce
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pain? >> it could. >> if this act that we're looking at in exhibit 17 could produce pain, would you agree that what we're seeing here is a use of force? >> shown in this picture that could be a use of force. >> okay, katie, you're here to explain the defense side of this. what? >> yeah, no. i mean, you know, the defense failed today. brodd was unlikable. i don't know why the defense put him on other than they maybe couldn't find anyone else to testify for derek chauvin. he failed at the laquan mcdonald trial so i mean i don't know if his track record was so good. what was really critical about this expert is that he was trying desperately to show in a very clinical way that use of force has to be done, you know, compliant with police procedures, et cetera.
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the problem is the defense must assume that the jury is not paying attention because we heard from the actual guy, lieutenant mercil who said that technique that derek chauvin used is not taught by the minnesota pd so we already have the person who is actually in charge of everything including the chief of police saying we don't condone this. we don't authorize this and the other critical mistake made by the defense was through this guy, barry brodd. he said, you know what, you have to look at what the reasonable officer was doing, meaning we need to put the jury in the shoes of this officer so this officer can -- the jury can feel and determine whether or not he acted reasonably or objectively. here's the problem and joyce would agree with me, as lawyers, something called the golden rule. you are not allowed to ask the members of the jury to put themselves in the shoes of the party. that's a mistrial so what's critically wrong with this argument they're doing? if you ask the jurors any of these 12 jurors to put themselves in the shoes of derek
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chauvin, none are ever going to say what that cop did was reasonable, objectively, subjectively wasn't reasonable so that was a major mistake because none of those jurors will say that 9:29 on somebody without a pulse as something they would ever do as a reasonable officer. that was a critical problem. >> one more barry brodd clip. him trying to use resting comfortably in any way related to george floyd. >> what part of this is not compliant? >> so i see his arm position in the picture that's posteds. >> right. >> that, you know, a compliant person would have both their hands in the small of their back and resting comfortably versus like he's still moving around. >> did you say resting comfortably? >> or laying comfortably. >> resting comfortably on the pavement? >> yes. >> at this point in time when he's attempting to breathe by shoving his shoulder into the pavement? >> i was describing what the signs of a perfect compliant person would be.
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>> so attempting to breathe while restrained is being slightly noncompliant? >> no. >> i'm going to leave that for the audience to absorb and move on to officer peter chang, the fifth officer there because the other piece of the defense case, joyce, he's trying to say the crowd also killed george floyd because they were mean. so here is the other officers raising concern about that supposed threat. take a listen. >> and you assumed when you were doing that that those four officers were okay over there because there were four of them, correct? >> yes. >> and if they had radioed for help you would have heard it over your radio. >> yes. >> and they never radioed for help, did he? >> no. >> that felt like a strong cross to me, joyce, because it's true. if they were so menacing why didn't they call for backup? >> the defense puts these witnesses on the stand to try to
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create reasonable doubt in the mind of at least one juror so they can avoid a guilty verdict and this was not a successful day for the defense, i don't think. you know, the caveat, joy, is we can't see the jury. we don't know how they're reacting. it's possible that the defense has identified a juror that they're trying to single out, and hope that that juror will hold out against rendering a verdict, but nothing that we heard today was really sufficient and i'll make an interesting legal point, the parties give the judge their requests for jury instructions at the end of the trial, the judge will instruct the jury about the law and the jury is obligated to apply that law and the defense asked for an instruction on expert witnesses and the instruction that they wanted is a somewhat standard one that essentially tells the jury they should use their own judgment and use their common sense and they can reject an expert if it doesn't comport with their common sense and so
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going back to mr. brodd, i think the defense will regret having asked for an instruction that's that strong and what the jury saw today was someone whose testimony just was biased. i mean that's really what it came down to, didn't comport with the reality that this jury has heard about or has understood through their own common sense and the day looks like it was a failure for the defense. >> yeah, listen, you guys are lawyers, not me, that is how i looked at it as well, quite an attempt and quite a miss. katie phang, joyce vance as we said, we never know with the jury. still ahead the fda and cdc are calling for a pause on the johnson & johnson vaccine after reports that it could cause blood clots, an extremely rare case. what it means for global vaccination efforts? we'll find out next. don't go anywhere.
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today the fda and the cdc announced a temporary pause on the johnson & johnson covid vaccine. this comes as they review six cases of an extremely rare type of blood clot linked to people who received the vaccine. the u.s. cases were observed among women between 18 and 48. to date 6.8 million people have received the j&j vaccine. that would mean there's less than a 1 in a million chance of getting a clot. just to put it in perspective according to the cdc 9,000 men, women and children get clots each year leading to 100,000 deaths, in fact, certain types of birth control pills increases a woman's risk two to four times. advising the public health agencies is holding a special meeting tomorrow to review the data. the top covid advisers at the white house moved swiftly to calm nerves and assure americans there's more than enough vaccine to go around despite the pause.
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>> let me start by saying that this announcement will not have a significant impact on our vaccination program. we have more than enough supply of pfizer and moderna vaccines to continue the current pace of about 3 million shots per day. >> the pause not only allows us to take a look at the cases and learn more but it isless a signal out there to help the physicians, so you're talking about tens and tens and tens of millions of people receive vaccines with no adverse effect, this is a really rare event. >> president biden also tried to reassure americans. >> i made sure we have 600 million doses of the mrna, not of either johnson & johnson and/or astrazeneca, so there's enough vaccine that is basically
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100% unquestionable for every single solitary american. >> this afternoon pfizer announced it will ramp up production of its vaccine and can deliver 10% more doses by the end of may. joining me now is dr. vin gupta, i'm glad you're here. can you start out by explaining they have paused the j&j vaccine. tell us about the clots and how much at risk are our friends who have gotten the johnson & johnson in? >> good evening. good to see you. so the clot that we're worried about is a so reasonial venous sinus thrombosis, technical terminology but a blood clot in your brain but the six individuals that received it, one passed away. instance where you mentioned is rare, 1 in 1 million. context this, event, let's say we're not in the pandemic and not talking about vaccine happens in about 3 to 4 cases per every 100 million cases
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baseline. lower than the background rate. for those of you who received the johnson & johnson vaccine, particularly women between the ages of 20 and 50, there seems like there's a predilection for it to happen in that cohort vaccine or not. if you have a severe headache, if you've had blurry vision or lost, say, control of a limb, for example, really just a sort of symptoms out of nowhere, that's when you want to present your clinical provider. those are extreme symptoms associated with this clot, joy, and that's what should tip us off. as to how concerned we should be, the pause is necessary in part because of what dr. fauci said. it's to alert folks like myself and my colleagues that this is happening, extremely rarely but that this needs to be treated differently than the way we typically treat a blood clot. in this case you get a different therapy than a blood thinner. >> so basically the bottom line being, people shouldn't panic if they've gotten the johnson &
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johnson vaccine unless they have a severe symptom and basically now your doctor will know what to do if you do present with these symptom, right? >> absolutely and this is to flag people who received the vaccine that these are exceptionally rare symptoms. this is unlikely exceptionally . if you are noticing one of these, to raise their hand, call your provider, and get anticipatory care. >> let's talk about the difference. the two vaccines that are considered mrna vaccine, meaning the moderna and the pfizer, they're not included in this. the johnson & johnson and astrazeneca, they're a different kind of vaccine. can you just explain the difference between the two types of vaccines? >> of course. so pfizer and moderna, by the way, none of these blood clotting rare events are associated. we have no detectable evidence that this has happened with pfizer or moderna. those are based on mrna technology. basically a little piece of the genetic footprint of the covid-19 virus, that gets
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injected into the human being and then your body uses that as a blueprint to build a key part of the virus structure, the spike protein and it builds antibodies. it's a blueprint from genetic material that gets injected directly into your body. the key difference with j&j and astrazeneca is that they use another virus as a vehicle to insert that genetic material. it's called an adno virus vaccine. it's a transport to get the material into the cells so they can build that spike protein on which antibodies can detect the virus if you're exposed after your fully vaccinated. there's a slight difference there. astrazeneca and j&j are similar in technology to the way we usually build the flu vaccine. it's all to say that the same type of phenomenon that is rarely seen with the astrazeneca vaccine is now being seen with
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the j&j vaccine. so joy, what's going to happen? i suspect tomorrow evening when they gather, there might be some narrowing in terms of anticipatory guidance. who is to say, but they could potentially redirect folks potentially. >> very quickly, this is the thing i worry about. it's hard enough to talk some folks into getting vaccinated, as you know. we've been through this. do you worry this is going to make it harder? even though the moderna and the pfizer -- this has nothing to do with those vaccines. what do we say to people who are saying now, see? i don't want to get vaccinated. >> number one, pfizer and moderna -- you saw senior officials really lean into this. pfizer and moderna are very effective. what vaccines prevent, for all of you hesitant or worried about the vaccines, they prevent progression to serious illness, hospitalization to the tune of
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100%, including johnson & johnson. what i'll say is we really need clear guidance from acip because there are going to be people here and we have to contend with that fact. either we redirect those who we think might be high risk for this rare complication to pfizer, moderna in clear terms and then message on that that this side effect doesn't occur with pfizer and moderna and that's what you saw them leaning in on. >> from a layperson, the bottom line is these vaccines are safe. you know what's not safe? covid. covid is actually deadly. do not get covid. get vaccinated so you can protect yourself. dr. vin gupta, thank you very much. really appreciate you being here and giving us that knowledge. dr. gupta is participating in a big nbc news special coming up sunday night called "roll up your sleeves" aiming to educate viewers and dispel concerns about the covid vaccines. president joe biden and former
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president barack obama will also be taking part. roll "up your sleeves" airs sunday night at 7:00 p.m. on nbc. do not miss it. when we come back, a tribute to fallen capitol police officer billy evans who lay in honor in the capitol rotunda today, the building where he served this country. outside of which he was killed in the second attack on the capitol this year. we'll be right back. to make thi, we listen. because platforms this innovative, aren't just made for traders-they're made by them. thinkorswim trading. from td ameritrade. vo: calling all builders, all welders, and roofers. engineers and electricians. calling all brick masons and boiler makers. steel workers and steam fitters your country is calling you to rebuild america. to create a cleaner, safer, more prosperous future for all.
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it was day of mourning in the nation's capitol again today with u.s. capitol police officer william "billy "evans lying in honor in the roton do, the building he was sworn to protect. the casket has since been removed in a departure ceremony that ended an hour ago. the 18-year veteran of the capitol police force died earlier this month when a man rammed his car into him and another officer. among those paying their final
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respects a person familiar with loss, president joe biden. >> i didn't know billy, but i knew billy. i grew up with billys. he's still with you. he's still in your heart. losing a son, daughter, brother, sister, mom, dad, it's like losing a piece of your soul. but it's buried deep, but it comes back. >> evans is the second capitol police officer to die in the line of duty in less than three months, the first being officer brian sicknick who was killed during the january 6th assault on the capitol. before this year only two other capitol police officers had ever been attacked and killed in the line of duty. officer evans is survived by his wife, shannon, and two children. ♪ was blind but now i see ♪
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that's tonight's readout. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on "all in" -- >> i believe your question is did we pull the trigger too soon on this. >> america puts a pause on the johnson & johnson vaccine. >> we want to get this worked out as quickly as we possibly can. and that's why you see the word "pause" "pause". >> tonight, my exclusive interview with dr. anthony fauci. the indicted associate of matt gaetz is cooperating with the feds. plus, will the outrage over the police killing of daunte wright affect the outcome of the chauvin trial? my exclusive interview with senator eli


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