tv The Beat With Ari Melber MSNBC April 29, 2021 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT
thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> welcome to "the beat." i am ari melber. president biden in georgia right outside of atlanta. this is his 100th day in office. and we are waiting a rally after that big and ambitious speech to congress last night. we're keeping an eye on this. we have special guests and we will dip in and listen to him live. we begin, though, with the
biggest story in the country, the criminal probe intensifying into rudy giuliani. the story that touches not only onering we lived through in the last four years but where we're headed now as a nation and what it means for an ex-president who remains under criminal investigation for trying to steal an election. what's new is the feds now have giuliani's phone and electric devices and computer after raiding his apartment and office. giuliani speaking out now on what he's up against and the raid. here's what he said. >> the report a moment ago is that the search warrant involves my pressuring ukrainian officials on behalf of president trump. nothing of the sort. the search warrant involves something totally opposite. search warrant is one act of failing to register as a foreign -- failing to file as a foreign agent, which is completely false. >> this is mr. giuliani's
response to defense. we're not able at this time to fact check it yet. although, all of it is coming through different sources. what he is asserting is that the issue at hand was an alleged failure to register as a foreign agent. he's denying that he actually made that failure. now, we don't know what else is coming. but for a judge to approve this type of source, they believe giuliani has evidence of a crime. now, donald trump's doj tried to hold back this search according to "the new york times." today i mentioned how big a story this is. it touches on the insurrection. it touches on whether donald trump broke laws in two plots against the bidens, basically. the first one of course with the ukraine malfeasance and the second one what we all recently lived through, the effort by giuliani to overturn a lawful election. so the new president understandably asked about this. president biden telling craig melvin he did not know about
this federal raid beforehand. >> were you aware of that raid before it happened? i. >> give you my word i was not. i made a pledge. i would not interfere in any way, order or try to stop any investigation the justice department had. i learned about that last night when the rest of the world learned about it. >> that's very interesting. and whatever happens in this case, of course, it is a marketed contrast how donald trump tried to illicitly control aspects of the government that are supposed to be independent. there you have the president who know what is a big ticket issue this is. we're talking about raiding a lawyer that represented the former president. he didn't know about it in advance and he wouldn't want to because he respects the doj independence. investigators might be interested in a call that has giuliani instructing him to call him back at a redacted number,
quote, the soon to be gotten rid of number. very interesting. and this is apparently a quite thorough investigation. "politico" reports the fbi interviewed a former ukrainian lawmaker last year about activities there and we're learning the warrants include an allegation of what giuliani mentioned in that audio i played you tonight, that he failed to register as a foreign agent. now, you may recall was shown video of giuliani in ukraine. a trip that he admitted was taken on trump's behalf for his ukraine plot. he said we're not meddling in an election. we're meddling in an investigation. this isn't foreign policy and that he was going there to help his client, the president of the united states, donald trump. and there was nothing illegal about it. well, that's his view. and he is a lawyer. and he used to run the southern district of new york. but right now, the people who do run the southern district of new york with its massive federal investigative powers as i'm
reporting to you, they think there may be illegal things here. they convinced a judge there may be evidence of a crime, whether that's committed by giuliani or someone else. as we told you before, these legal questions are ultimately not up to the people involved, the defendants or the people tweeting or the people making all kinds of conspiracy theories about other people. the legal questions are results in our system. first of the investigative process and then to our legal process. it is up to those processes to divide. giuliani admitting during this trip he was there because trump asked him to go there, something that trump even denied. >> the president of the united states, i can tell you this, is asking for this. >> him to go to ukraine and do anything? >> no, i didn't direct it. but he is a warrior. rudy is a warrior. >> quote, i didn't direct him. spoken like someone who has been in and out of a courtroom and
legal processes for a long time. whatever you think of donald trump, he understands, from experience, how to say the words criminal defense lawyers tell you to say. you didn't direct him. you weren't involved. you relied on others. none of this looks like good news for rudy giuliani. meanwhile, i mentioned the southern district. an assistant u.s. attorney says it is a clear indication they're close, very close to indicting him, executing the search warrant. the quote from someone who knows their way around these probes. with us is that perry here to give us insights into the legal process. michael steele, and olivia nuzzi. you may recall some of her coverage of rudy giuliani that was interesting largely because of the way giuliani rolls. her story, a reporter's guide to texting with rudy giuliani.
good to have all of you here. i gave a little legal summary and we'll get to more of the law. but, michael, i want to begin with you big picture. what does it mean even in a time where everyone has gotten used to everything that the former president sees a second top attorney of his indicted by the -- excuse me, raided by the southern district, the previous one indicted. and what does this tell us about the hangover from that trump era? >> well, it is not a good day in the neighborhood if you're in the giuliani neighborhood or in the trump neighborhood because it means that there are federal investigations that are out there. and we don't even though. it's a lot like very good reporters, when they put out the first story about something and it like blows up and everybody is like, oh, my god, you know there is a second possibility or third or fourth story coming along. same is true in this story with federal indictments. when there is a hint of something going on, when there
is a raid or an investigation, that doesn't happen, especially when it requires a judge to sign off on it. it doesn't happen unless you have all those dots dotted and those ts crossed in a way that puts some cement to what you are doing. i think that should be very concerning for rudy and for trump. but here's the rub. on the trump end of it, he's just like rudy? rudy who? i really don't know the guy. you know, we met on occasion, but i'm not familiar. what does he do again? so expect that to come at some point if the heat comes up on this where trump creates that move he's known for, creating distance between him and the individual who is suspect number one, two or twenty. and rudy again has to figure out how he navigates this space. you know, there are a lot of stories out there about just how sort of thin this relationship is between rudy and donald trump in the first place.
so we'll see whether or not that has an effect as this investigation unfolds. >> and you look at the situation. as michael mentioned, just from reporting the news, if any former lawyer to the recent president has their home and office raided, it's a huge story. if this happened to former president obama and his former lawyer over lapping, it would be a big deal. it's happened now twice to donald trump. based on your knowledge of sdny, and we quoted you earlier, where do you see a raid like this figuring into an open probe? >> well, as he's saying, it is highly unusual. raids on lawyers' offices are unusual in the first instance. i have seen it done a couple of times, both on the defense side. i represented michael cohen who i know will be on later and michael avenatti, both of whom
had their offices raided. and there is a lot of steps in the process. i was on the other side for many years of the u.s. attorney's office. i had to sign off on these kinds of warrants. and the u.s. attorney has to sign off. the assistant attorney general and the deputy. and these almost assuredly line up to the level of the attorney general. so it is a very big deal. typically the standard is probably cause. in this case there was no doubt a much higher standard. i don't know if it rises to beyond a reasonable doubt, but these lawyers at the u.s. attorneys office have been waiting a long time. they have run through all the paces. they have this locked down. >> yeah. >> so they are feeling very confident about this. >> let's -- let's drill on your point there just to be clear. in a standard situation, probably cause low, medium standard there is evidence of the crime in the place being searched, specific articulate
facts. you're saying it is, in fact, practically a much higher standard, which means it is worse for giuliani? >> i think so. i mean, it's not just because -- not just because he's the former president's former lawyer, but also this is obviously a high profile case. the stakes are high. there are some built-in defenses. there are political defenses. there is going to be a lot at stake here. so i think for all those reasons, they will go the extra mile. no doubt they have executed additional search warrants before they got to this point. they have, as michael said, dotted all their is and crossed all their ts. i would be shocked if they could indict right now. there is a grand jury that's already impanelled. this was about the presenters. they will go through the evidence. it could take some time.
>> i'm only slowing you down because you are such a smart, fast lawyer. you are moving fast on me. i'm just a country television lawyer. you're saying, based on your knowledge of the way these things work, that right now your understanding, your premise would be that they already have enough to indict mr. giuliani now? >> i would say that with a high degree of confidence. i would bet a lot of money on that. so the timing, i would say, is unclear just because they are going to want to go through this. they will have a team go through it. they will take as much time as they have. they don't have any political pressures anymore. so they will go through all of this stuff and they will make sure it is completely buttoned down. but i think it's highly likely that they know already that this is an indictable offense. >> that's fascinating.
michael, as elliot ness used to say, whoomp there it is. >> look, anything can happen, of course. but they have been sitting on this -- i'm sorry. i'm bringing michael in, if you can hear me and then we'll go back to you. >> yeah. no. i was just saying those words were about to drip off my tongue. whoop, there it is. that's the reality. that's the reality for trump and those that have been in that orbit around these controversial manners. to the point about what the president himself, joe biden, has said in the interview that i didn't know about this until you learned about it, i think that's the kind of wall that the american people want to see rebuilt between the executive branch and those branches that deal with law enforcement like the fbi, like the department of
justice so that we can look at these events as they occur, as these reports are rolled out and certainly as these investigations unfold with clean hands and clean eyes and appreciate the work that's being done here that is not somehow tainted, that there is not some back room deal trying to cya rudy giuliani or the president himself. i think that's a good thing right now. >> olivia? >> hi. yeah. i think this is obviously a bad leak for giuliani, but one he had seen coming. i mean, he knew the reports were out there for several years now, that investigators were interested in him. he talked to me about it. he seemed bitter that people he considered to be, you know, his guys, his community of people in his mind that he would become a
target. there is sort of a tragic element to that. but it's not surprising. it is almost as if they were tempting investigators. his behavior has gotten more and more insane. he was out in the open talking about meddling for different years now all on behalf of someone who as michael eluded to earlier, it is not as if he has a deep friendship with donald trump. donald trump doesn't have deep friendships. he has people he has known a long time. he has people who have displayed loyalty to him for a long time like rudy giuliani. but he does not have soul connections with other human beings the way that other people might. so it is not as though these are a guide to do back to grade school and they swore an oath to each other. rudy has been using donald trump for relevance and probably for profit for the duration of his
political career, certainly. and donald trump has been using him as someone to kind of take the arrows as they come at him. but if i was donald trump, i would be hearing footsteps right now, as though investigators for years whether robert mueller or federal investigators now, have been getting closer and closer to the former president himself. >> all great points. as you say, if it is purely a transactional relationship in exchange of fame and clout and other attempts to self-gran diez, then when the terms of transaction change, people go a different direction. we have mr. cohen coming up on the program who really has unique and personal insights into exactly that trade-off. take a listen to how rudy sounded on the radio here just briefly discussing this. >> and what have they done? what have they done?
nothing except come after me with a, you know, 6:00 in the morning with a piece of nonsense. no wonder they're jealous. i mean, it is just ridiculous. >> as olivia mentioned, it over laps with her reporting where he used to run the office. it is a highly unusual situation. what do you think of the general way he's talking about it as well as his more specific claim that this all boils down to only a lobbying filing issue and no other wider set of potential allegations or crimes? >> well, the first thing, i do agree with olivia. he has to have a sense of betrayal and shock, even though as you said, it's been a long time coming. it is a very clubby district. i remember going to the
anniversary party a couple years ago. just a few years ago, rudy was invited. he was on the golf course, so he didn't attend. but almost everyone else who has ever been in those courtrooms and in those hallways attended. and so i think, you know, he sees himself as part of the club, and he's surprised that this turned on him. you know, the notion that there is the jealouies and the search warrant at 6:00 in the morning, that's a sequitur, of course. he said in other reporting that he tried to make this right. he reached out. that's not the way it worked. if there is a criminal violation here, if he failed to register and if he was in fact lobbying and if it was in fact on behalf of the president, it was a crime. there is no getting around it no
matter what club he's in. he very soon will have to be facing the music. >> yeah. and you made some really important points there. i want to thank you. michael steele stays as we await president biden's remarks, which is the other big story we have been watching and the whole nation here watching the basically first address to the congress, which is this year's version of state of the union. we're looking at the president here, michael, has just started making his introductory remarks. your thoughts on his speech tonight? >> i think he did what he had to do and what he wanted to do. he's having this ongoing conversation with the american people, bringing them along, sitting at their kitchen tables, if you will, sort of going through these are the things we have to face, the challenges. here is what i need you to do, which was emphasized over and oaf again. this is what i need you to do.
and i think that's the style that republicans are having a hard time combatting. just can't throw a socialist label up, even with all the spending because, heck, we just spent $6 trillion on the republican side over the last five years. $2 trillion of it is tax cuts. so the realities are very different now that the president is willing to engage directly with the american people, not falling into that. he's making a difference. he's connecting with folks in a real way. it is reflected in the polling. even where he's weakest, on immigration, china and issues like that, the american people aren't holding it against him. you know, at the end of the day, he has a 53% job approval, despite the fact he has a 53% approval on how he's handling
immigration. >> yeah. as you say, we hear about polarized times, but some of what he's offering seems to be unifying. our colleagues in the news room have been listening to this while michael and i were talking. i'm told the president is finishing some of his opening thank yous and shout-outs. we will listen in to the president. >> folks, georgia was 100 days ago when i was inaugurated on the steps of the united states capitol to be your president. i was locking forward to coming back and seeing these guys. i agree with you. i'm working on it, man. give me another five days.
>> folks, you all know what they're talking about. there should be no private prisons, period. none, period. that's what they're talking about, private detention centers. they should not exist. and we are working to close all of them. so, folks, look -- thank you. all right. thank you. all right. okay. let him go. no, no, no. i promise you. i promise you. thank you. folks, look, it's been 100 days since i first sat at my desk at the oval office and went to work for you and the american people. i want to thank you. i want to thank the american people because i think we have
gotten a lot done. i promised even before i was sworn in that i would get my first 100 days 100 million covid vaccine shots in people's arms. we have lost over 550,000 americans. but we delivered over 220 million covid shots in the first 100 days. we vastly expanded access. we got 100 million doses, enough for every single american. and we have done it by getting vaccines to some 40,000 pharmacies across the country. and now, now everyone over the age of 16 is now eligible to get vaccinated right away. so please do it. get vaccinated now. now. now. now. and we promise to deliver emergency relief to the millions of americans who are in
financial distress. and i might add through no fault of their own. so we get out $1,400 checks to the american people, and we kept that promise. 85% of households in america have gotten those checks. we have already sent out more than 160 million checks out the door. and i want to stop here and give thanks to both your senators. senators ossoff and warnock for making it happen because those two votes, had we not come back and you elected them, those two votes made the difference. they passed by a single vote. and that means we have a special thanks to the people of georgia. because of you, the rest of the world, because of your two senators, the rest of america was able to get the help they got so far. the american rescue plan would not have passed. so much we have gotten done like getting checks to people probably would not have happened. so if you ever wonder if
elections make a difference, just remember what you did here in georgia when you elected ossoff and warnock. you began to change the environment. and, look, because of you we passed one of the most consequential rescue bills in american his industry. so what did you do? what would you do with your vote here in georgia? well, you changed america. you began to change america. and you're helping us prove that democracy can still deliver for the people. look, i want to thank you for all of that. all of america wants to thank you because here is what we mean by delivering for the people. we created in the first 100 days 1,300,000 new jobs. 1,300,000 jobs in 100 days. that's more new jobs in the first 100 days of any president in history.
folks, because of you -- >> president biden here speaking in georgia in this rally. as mentioned, we wanted to dip in, he's certainly invoking and presenting some of his greatest hits from last night's speech. we're going to keep an eye on this speech to see if he breaks any other news, but we're turning to our other big story and a big guest. the feds probe into giuliani has been intensifying, given that new raid we have been reporting on and last year the fbi put questioning about him to a political figure also in giuliani's video that pushed the accredited ukraine plot against the bidens. it is the same former lawmaker who also tried to offer a supposed peace plan between russia and ukraine to another lawyer worker with and more donald trump at the time, michael cohen. mr. cohen found representing and working for donald trump, but
him, as a lawyer, in his own criminal legal trouble. his home was raided, just like giuliani yesterday. he was arrested. cohen's loyalty was not repaid in any public or visible way by donald trump who released the dogs on him telling the world to ask michael cohen about trump's alleged malfeasance. cohen was convicted like manafort, stone. he did use some of his power for those aids, but not all. now one of donald trump's most famous lawyers stands right now tonight at a cross roads like those other desperate trump defenders, weighing cooperation and self-preservation versus defiance on behalf of a man who this time donald trump no longer holds any power. giuliani, as we were discussing with our guests tonight he
returned to the spotlight he craves by literally making arguments for trump that even trump's own paid staff wouldn't make late last year. that's why he was one of the last people standing in the absurd effort to continually contest an election that was obviously and soon quite embarrassingly over. he did it for the attention. for the game. and his other experts on soured alliances will tell you, people who do anything for fame can be quite week. discarding disloyal colleagues, quote, the point i'm trying to make is i don't ever need them. seen what you do for fame. what would you do for freedom? please, check him for a wire or an ear piece. well, the idea there is clear. the idea is that if you will sell out just to get some secondhand clout from the boss, you can't really be trusted. and when the real legal heat is
on, when jail looms, you may flip for your freedom. will giuliani do that? well, the last trump lawyer in this position had been publically quite sternly loyal to donald trump for years. but as mentioned, when michael cohen found no loyalty from donald trump in return, he did cooperate. he may be the one person in america who knows exactly what giuliani is up against right now with the stakes high and the pressure on and the whole country knowing what happened to him. mr. cohen faced the same new york prosecutors, the same pressure on his famous former client. and ultimately the fame existential question. what would you do for freedom? joining me now back on "the beat" is michael cohen, former lawyer to donald trump, host of the podcast, author of the book
"disloyal" and someone who has been a guest and an expert for us before. thank you for returning, michael. >> how are you doing, ari? >> i'm good. thanks. we look at the parallels. does this surprise you in any way that the feds were in giuliani's office yesterday? what do you think he will do? >> okay. so in your introduction on me, there is a couple of things that are not exactly accurate. first of all, i did not flip on donald trump. i cooperated on my own conditions. i never signed a -- >> lawyer to lawyer, though, i'll let you finish. you and i know legally. i said legally cooperated in that you were no longer someone that was fighting a jury trial. you did cooperate and strike a deal. i did not use the word "flip". >> i also was not arrested. i was advised by my attorney on a friday night, which was the first time that i had heard
about any sort of charges that would be brought against me, either i come in on monday or plead guilty or they were going to file an 85-page indictment that will include my wife who had nothing to do with anything which is why i used money from my helock account so that she wouldn't know. let's go back to giuliani. what is he thinking? it's not what he's thinking. it's what he knows. he knows he's in big trouble as your previous guests had just avised. he ran the southern district of new york. he knows exactly the games that they play because he's the one that created that play book. and they take no prisoners. they did exactly the same thing to me. and here's the interesting thing. it may start with just ukraine, but that's not where it's going to stop because rudy is actually a stupid guy. and rudy has no idea about
technology. he says very dumb things when especially he starts drinking and he starts wanting to be this -- this tom hagan to donald running around the world talking to people about how, in fact, you know, he's donald trump's right hand guy and he can get everything done. well, you know, as they say, the chicken is coming home to roost and he knows he's got problems. he knows it's not going to end well. so unlike what happened with me, unlike, you know, manafort who took it to trial or roger stone who went to trial, i didn't. i pled guilty and i got 36 months. so he's only right now imaging what does he have to do in order to stay out of prison? because rudy giuliani has no interest in being in prison during the golden years of his life. that i can assure you. >> yeah. well, and it's a lot of heat, michael. take a listen to donald trump here on fox business.
>> rudy giuliani is a great faker. he does these things. he just loves these things. and they raid his apartment? it's like so unfair and such -- it's like a double standard like i don't think anybody's ever seen before. it's very, very unfair. >> is donald trump scared right now? >> yes, i think he's scared. and as i have said on other programs and, you know, to the press, donald we have seen this before. we saw it when they came and they raided my hotel, my room and my law office, right? and you decided that you didn't know who i was, that he was very angry that they had raided one of his attorney's offices. donald trump doesn't care about rudy giuliani. donald trump didn't care about rudy giuliani until rudy was actually doing free legal work for him. and rudy didn't care much about
donald trump until rudy needed donald's power of the presidency in order to drum up business. there is no loyalty between the two. rudy will do what rudy needs to do in order to protect himself. what's interesting is where donald turned around and said i never rudy to say that, right? i never directed it. i never. well, where did he learn that word from? he learned it from me when i turned around at my sentencing and i said that i was directed, right, to pay the hush money payment by donald trump. i was directed by him to do it for his benefit. >> let's look at that, michael. >> yeah. >> let's -- let me jump in on that. that's a very important point you raise and there is a connection here, right? mr. giuliani is involved in the very sorted and discredited events around keeping trump in power that led to two impeachments, ukraine and
challenging the electors. you were not involved in that stuff, but as you pled to there were a range of offenses. but that was not for your personal benefit. that was work you were doing. as you say, these new york prosecutors here in the southern district, they go hard. they got you to plead on that. but what does it tell you that being a lawyer for donald trump seems to pull people deeper and deeper into these choices about how far they want to go. in your case it was arranging something that at least those prosecutors found to be a provable crime. and in giuliani's case not provable crime yet but clearly under investigation for possible crimes related to keeping trump in power when he then lost the election. >> yeah. look, that's unfortunately what happens when you work in donald trump's orbit. you start to almost believe that you're invincible, that you have a teflon coating. you almost believe that you are a mini donald trump and that you can get away with anything and
that notion is what brought me down. and that's the same notion that's going to take rudy giuliani down. >> yeah. and, briefly, do you think that mr. giuliani came up with the different ideas, the ukraine biden investigation which is clearly something the fbi is asking questions about, these later shenanigans leading up to january 6th. do you think he came up with himself or do you think he was acting at the direction and behest of donald trump in. >> it is always at the direction of and for the benefit of donald trump. i talk about that a lot both on the podcast and in my book. there is nothing that goes on that relates to donald trump that rudy giuliani, myself and everybody that worked with him and for him did not first discuss with donald for his approval. it is just the way that it works. it is the way that it worked in the trump organization. it is the way that i saw it works in the white house. i do also want to tell you one
of the things you brought up is andres. while i was looking for documents for the district attorney, you know, i turned over a series of boxes and documents to them a couple weeks ago. i actually found a document that i could not find prior to my self-surrender. i found that alleged peace plan. it is a one-page document that was given to me typed up by felix sater that is not -- and i'll send it to you if you want to see it. i'll post it. it has one sentence on there saying we should lease the area of crimea to russia. that's the one sentence of this peace plan i was in. it was more fodder that came up about me to make me look like a much worse individual than certainly what i was. you know, i, in one respect, i did break the law, right?
i paid off stormy daniels hush money in order to, you know, prevent all that information from coming out prior to the election. now i always have said it and i'll say it again. i did it at the direction of and for the benefit of donald j. trump. rudy giuliani's is much different. that actually also potentially involves national security. who knows what he was doing. what knows what rudy was saying. rudy was -- at this point, he was out of complete control. >> yeah. >> and rudy is able to do it and to say anything for financial benefit. >> well, we ran longer than planned, but this has been very interesting and at times illuminating. we will take the peace plan. i always appreciate your perspective. as mentioned, you are the single most qualified guest on this story in the country right. i appreciate you coming on "the beat". >> thank you, ari. and i'll send it to you. >> yes, sir.
thank you. we turn to emily. emily, michael cohen certainly is someone who has been in this position. your reaction to some of what he said and what looks to be significant legal pressure on giuliani? >> well, i think, you know, michael cohen has a pretty good idea of the risk that giuliani is facing right now. seems to think that giuliani should be taking it very seriously. the other thing that's important is that he always emphasizes that donald trump directed the illegal activities that he engaged in and that that's just how business was done. so this notion that trump necessarily has some significant distance from giuliani in his view doesn't really add up. >> i want to play a little bit of the collusion aspect because there has been more and more evidence to come out even post-mueller probe. and i also think that you can look back on the very substantial allegations against
donald trump trying to cheat in or collude with a foreign power to stay in power in the united states. and it looks worse after january 6th. here's some of what giuliani would say. >> america's mayor stepped foot in ukraine for the first time in two years. >> there is evidence in the ukraine of collusion. biden is involved in it. i can prove somebody else committed the crime. and that's why i started it. >> so you did ask ukraine to look into joe biden? >> of course i did. >> it's like any massive conspiracy theories. there is a lot of double allegations. but at the end of the day, you have someone in rudy giuliani who is doing things in that ukraine plot and trying to help trump that are bad enough that even donald trump knows to deny in public, which is why we showed earlier trump disputes that he asked giuliani to do much of this. what does that tell him?
>> it in retro spect seems so clear. as long as the smears of the bidens remains totally unproven, as long as they helped trump win, then they were good for trump. they were good for giuliani. it is only when the attempted winners become the losers that it wears risk. it makes me go back to the question of why he didn't pardon giuliani before he left office, didn't pardon other people. >> why? >> it seemed like that was about to happen at the end. now you think to yourself, huh, these people really are at risk of being prosecuted. they missed their chance. >> right. it is as if the timing of the things you do for trump is the most important thing because he had no sense of shame or guilt or anything about pardoning so many around him. this will go down in many ways as more extreme than watergate with regard to the coverup.
whether the underlying crimes are the same. but the coverup was all in the open. people like matt gaetz were reportedly seeking pardons, but giuliani didn't get one. it is all a story that's clearly not over. we wanted your legal journalistic take in addition to mr. cohen's experience as a participant. thank you for being part of our coverage tonight. >> thanks for having me. >> appreciate it. you have been watching this special episode. we're 42 minutes in without a break. we will take a quick one. when we come back how biden is pressuring republicans. stay with us. licans stay with us percent recyclable, including the caps. they're collected and separated from other plastics, so they can be turned back into material that we use to make new bottles. that completes the circle, and reduces plastic waste. please help us get every bottle back.
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♪ ♪ look, if your wireless carrier was a guy you'd leave him tomorrow. not very flexible. not great at saving. you deserve better... xfinity mobile. now they have unlimited for just $30 a month... $30. and they're number one in customer satisfaction. his number... delete it. i'm deleting it. so, break free from the big three. xfinity internet customers, take the savings challenge at xfinitymobile.com/mysavings. or visit and xfinity store to learn how our switch squad makes it easy to switch and save hundreds. president biden back out on the road in georgia today pushing a trillion dollar spending plan, education health care, jobs, division. "the new york times" described it as a call for big government.
>> my american families plan guarantees four additional years of public education, the very first in america starting as early as we can. so we guarantee that low and middle income families will pay no more than 7% of their income for high quality care for children up to the age of 5. the american family plan puts directly into the pockets millions of americans. >> that's what the president said. what does the public think? the majority of people under 35, seniors, lower income earners, middle class, high earners, hispanics, democrats, independents think the government should do more. republicans and white americans have a different view. has biden already started moving much of america. we welcome to the program michael steele back with us.
danielle, what do you think about the core point here that biden now appears to be moving on spending in big government from a position of broad strength? >> i think we talk a lot about what it means to be bipartisan. and i think we have to take it out of the context of what happens in congress and look at what the american people actually support. when you pull it apart, there is a lot more in this country. [ inaudible ]. >> let me jump in and explain a little bit of -- i mentioned to viewers last night we were at the white house. and i have another piece of it that jen psaki spoke to me about
that we haven't played yet. >> and a big part of his vision is, okay, we stemmed the crisis. but how do we build for the next generation? that's what the american jobs plan will do. so part of this is going to be for looking about what the future can look like for the next generation. >> that was a pitch, michael. and i'll mention we're working on other audio issues. but i also want to read from how this is playing. "the new york times" tries to basically play it straight as they interpret these big speeches and events. i was struck by what they see here. they call it a breathtaking scope of change taken by a 78-year-old president who spent a lifetime as a conventional lawmakers. he's following the volatile tenure of trump. he has positioned himself as a transformational president, michael. >> actually, i would agree with
that. in fact, throughout much of the campaign, going back to the week he announced when i said on our air here that biden would be not just a nominee but likely the next president, it was in that space that he -- that he now, i think, appropriately occupies as a transitional, transformational style president. now, what that ultimately plays out to be remains to be seen, obviously. what the president has done is he's staked a big goal. he's actually staked his presidency on that transformation. he staked his presidency on that transition, that transition away from trumpism and the transformation into a better america that is global in one sense, right, in terms of our redefined and new relationships broadly speaking globally, but transformational here at home where we now no longer look at our neighbor as other but recognize that we're kind of all
in this soup together and we all have to pull together to get some of these big things done. this is going to be the next test from where i'm sitting to see if he's able to do this. put it all out here very big, ari. this is the grand vision.it, because he recognizes he's not going to get $6 trillion worth of change done in the next year, right, before the next election. but he probably can get $1.2 trillion more of change done. he's already gotten the 2 trillion on covid. he can probably get another trillion in infrastructure, and i'll help republicans -- using biden's voice here, i'll help republicans define what infrastructure is, so i think he has an opportunity to put the republicans in a position where they're going to have to actually come and say what they're there as opposed to what they're against. we all know what that is. and i think it's going to be interesting to see how he does that. >> as you say, i mean, for those of us who have lived through
these battles over the decades, big government used to be pejorative on the goldilocks idea that it was too big and wasn't working. right now joe biden leaned into that last night. he really detailed the case while it's big to meet the scale and the challenge and the problems, why would you want to go small at this moment. that's the other thing i wanted to play, as mentioned, being at the white house and their optimism. this is jen psaki, i think the viewers know, and the director talking. we have more sound than we got to use talking about their approach to the speech. now that we heard it, let's take a look. >> the most important thing is for people across the country not feel like you're talking down to them or, you know, speaking in some, you know, arcane sort of industry technology that doesn't matter to the average person. >> he wants to make sure my
mother and his cousins understand what he has to see. >> i want my mother in scranton to know exactly what i'm talking about when i talk about this. >> your view, bottom line, did he meet that standard of clarity last night? >> i think he did. i really do. i think he has for some time. i think he has brought the american people along in this conversation going back to before he became president, certainly during the transition. and i think he now has their attention. we'll see how well he's able to hold it. look, i'm prepared to fight the president on some of these big ticket items because there is a whole lot of money that's about to be spent, and we've got to be clear about what that means and how it impacts not just our future but, most importantly, our current economic situation. but the reality of it is, i'm willing, like a lot of folks are, to listen to what you have to say, to see what you put on the table, and let's begin the debate. and i'm hoping my party gets past the easy gotcha, you know, in talking about dr. seuss, and
instead puts together a plan that they think can compete against what the president is offering, and let's have that debate across the country. >> all great points, and i will say, michael and i, we wanted to hear from darnella as well. i think i can say for both of us, we're sorry we didn't have her. we'll fix it up and get an excerpt. good to see you, sir. >> absolutely. absolutely. >> thank you, michael, thanks, everyone. our newsroom just got breaking news. new details on the type of warrants served in the giuliani raid and what we're looking at. i'll have the details for you right after this. e looking at i'll have the details for you right after this is what business is all about. it's what the united states postal service has always been about. so as your business changes, we're changing with it. with e-commerce that runs at the speed of now.
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javonovic. it could create potential trouble for giuliani. before we go, i want to highlight extraordinary people doing great things. today we highlight the first woman to serve adds head coach on an nba team, becky hammond. >> did it dawn on you at that moment that i'm about to step into history right now? >> no. what dawned on me is i want to beat the lakers. i want to beat them really bad. i think when you're told no, and you do it, it builds a resiliency in you. you don't have to believe it, i have to believe it. it's so much bigger than i could have thought of or imagined or dreamt of. >> as an important series, we wanted you to know about it. you can learn more about these individuals on "inspiring america" this saturday and sunday. it's airing both on msnbc right here and nbc. you've seen our special,
exclusive look inside the biden white house this week, and if you missed it, you can check out our twitter page @thebeatwithari. you can see why i was doing the elbow bumps and walking along the grounds. as always, thanks for watching. "the reidout" with joy reid starts right now. good evening, i'm jason johnson in for joy reid. we begin tonight with the fbi raid on rudy giuliani's apartment and office, a stark reminder that the former president's personal lawyer is still under investigation. it goes back to 2017 and his dealings with the ukraine. he was involved with president trump's impeachment and he got impeached two times. investigators are also focused on the 2019