tv Deadline White House MSNBC July 20, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT
signs that they are really in any sense of distress. >> well, that is good news and very interesting stuff about your meeting today as well. texas state representative jasmine crockett, thank you so much, we appreciate it. and that's going to wrap up this hour for me. i'm chris jansing. "deadline white house" starts now. hi, everyone, it's 4:00 in the east. i'm alicia menendez in for nicolle wallace. the republican party leading with disinformation and distraction as we're getting our first look at house minority leader kevin mccarthy's gop picks for the january 6 select committee. three of the five lawmakers on this list, congressman jim jordan, jim banks and troy nels objected to the election results on january 6th, effectively voting to give the insurrectionists what they wanted and overturn the election. as politico today points out, all but one of the republican picks, congressman rodney davis, voted against the creation of a
nonpartisan outside january 6th commission. some have even spoken out publicly against the select committee that they're about to join. congressman jim banks last night putting out a statement that draws a false equivalency between the january 6th mob and black lives matter protesters adding, quote, make no mistake nancy pelosi created this committee solely to malign conservatives and to justify the left's authoritarian agenda. jim jordan recently saying this to the associated press. quote, i've got real concerns that this is all just political and that this is impeachment three against president trump. but for jordan, there's also the complication of what some might call a conflict of interest. as we learn just last week in a new book out from phil rut ger and carol leonnig of "the washington post" one of jordan's own republican colleagues, liz cheney, blamed him for some of the violence as it was unfolding. the book recounts her rant about jordan, quote, that f'ing guy
jim jordan, that son of a b. while these maniacs are going through the place i'm standing in the aisle and he said we need to get the ladies away from the aisle. let me help you. i smacked his hand away and told him get away from me, you f'ing did this, cheney reportedly said. of course if none of mccarthy's picks are rejected, cheney and jim jordan will soon serve together on that committee. cheney is the lone republican selected by nancy pelosi for the committee. of course the disinformation, the distractions and the deflections we can expect from the likes of jim jordan has been known to turn many a committee hearing into a partisan spectacle will quickly be confronted by the reality as presented by the very first witnesses the committee is expected to hear next week when the investigation officially gets under way. four police officers who were on the scene on january 6th who have been vocal about the horrors they witnessed at the hands of donald trump supporters
and their frustration with republicans' inaction. here's some of what they have already said publicly, likely just the tip of the iceberg we can expect before the committee. >> it was not peaceful, it wasn't like a tour, like some people make it seem to be. >> you just see a sea of people, trump flags, confederate flags, thin blue line flags, don't tread on me flags. and then you look down and you see officers fighting with these people, pepper spray, smoke grenades, gas grenades, pepper balls being thrown by everybody, flash bangs. >> my arms were pinned. i was unable to defend myself so you saw the guy in front of me rip my mask off. he was also ripped away my baton and beat me in the head with it. >> guys were grabbing at my gear. i had my badge ripped off, my
radio was ripped off, one of my ammunition magazines was stripped from my belt. guys were trying to grab my gun and chanting like kill him with his own gun. i started thinking, you know, maybe i can appeal to somebody's humanity and i started like just yelling that i have kids. >> horrifying. and that is where we begin today. joining us now democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut. also with us betsy woodruff swan an msnbc contributor and hayes brown, writer and editor for msnbc daily. congressman himes, the picks for this committee shows republican leadership is totally unserious about joining in calls for actual accountability. what do these picks signal to you? >> well, i think the picks signal that jim jordan in particular is going to be an exercise in distraction. as you pointed out, it's already started, right? the challenge of course that they have is that facts are stubborn things. the fact is that what happened
on january 6th, and i was there, was the most serious threat to our democracy since the civil war. but instead, because this is a profoundly embarrassing thing to the republicans, they want you to believe that it was not so bad, that it actually people looking to hang mike pence or people beating police officers almost to death with fire extinguishers and flag poles. above all else, above all else, i'm glad you gave the cheney quote there, they need to avoid the self-knowledge that they contributed in a very material way by perpetuating this lie over and over and over again that the election had been stolen. and i watched that happen and it made my stomach curdle. they were saying my constituents have concerns about fraud. they were honest enough to say there wasn't fraud. they said my constituents have concerns. of course they did because donald trump told them there was fraud and these members of congress did nothing to dispute what donald trump was telling them. >> congressman, to your point about their contributions, should any of these members then be excluded due to a conflict of interest when it comes to their
complicity in inciting the riot? >> look, i'm less focused on the members and more focused on making sure that the democrats are fact oriented, historical and as bipartisan as they can be. even though mccarthy has framed this as a political exercise and the republicans did not one, not two, not three, not four but seven or eight committees to investigate benghazi, this is not a fundamentally political thing. this is about understanding what happened in the moment in which our democracy was most in peril, again, since the 1860s. >> let's drill down on what it is that democrats have to do because you already have republicans broadcasting this outrageous comparison to black lives matter protesters. how then do democrats keep these proceedings focused on the facts with a slate of republican committee members who seem pretty committed to distraction and deflection? >> well, i think it's good to
dispose of this ridiculous comparison with the violence that arose subsequent to the george floyd murder. let's start with the statement that all violence is not okay. it is to be rejected wherever it appears. but it is also beyond absurd and i believe the american people understand that a bunch of very angry protesters throwing bricks through bank windows in portland or wherever is a radically different proposition than people moving on the symbol of our democracy to stop a constitutional process. and not just to stop the process but to murder the vice president, to murder members of congress. i trust enough in the american common sense to know that they will be able to see the difference between those two things. >> hayes, you described the sounding you made when you saw jordan was on this list of names, gop nominees for the commission, as inhuman, which is of course relatable. talk about the ways that jordan pick specifically flies in the face of the stated purpose of this commission. >> jordan has turned distraction and obstruction on committees
into a fine art really. i just had flashbacks when i saw his name to the first impeachment where as a member of the justice committee in the house, jim jordan was one of the loudest, and i do mean loudest voices claiming that this was all a hoax, all a fraud, using bizarre, twisted logic to get around the fact that, yes, donald trump did commit the crimes which he was soon to be impeached for. so seeing that he's on this list, it's interesting because i feel like in a way kevin mccarthy had to balance out his members. he didn't have very many choices to choose from in terms of who actually voted to confirm joe biden's election in the electoral college and who voted to impeach donald trump for the second time. there was a very narrow pool here. so the fact that we do have two members who voted to confirm the election -- i'm sorry, three members who voted to confirm the election and at least two who voted to vote in favor of his bipartisan commission, i feel like this is probably the best list that we were going to get
out of kevin mccarthy. he could have packed it with even more jordans. so i'm very curious to see what nancy pelosi does, how many if any of these republicans she refuses to seat on this committee and who, if anyone, she taps to try to replace one of those seats. >> betsy, it is good to know that hayes has learned how to moderate his own expectations when it comes to what republicans will and won't do. to his point about nancy pelosi, what are you hearing about how she is going to approach the names that are being put forward? >> it's going to be challenging process for her. i spoke earlier today with two republicans who are part of the way that plans on that side are being put together for this committee. what they told me is that part of their strategy is actually to go after pelosi. both of these sources said that they're hoping to basically find ways to blame democratic congressional leadership for the insurrection that happened on january 6th by saying that pelosi should have done more to bring in the national guard or to bring in other security
officials to try to secure the capitol building. that's something that i would expect, that's an argument that i would expect republicans to make regardless of who's on this committee simply because from where they stand, the only defense that they can make is extremely aggressive and fact averse offense. they're in obviously extremely challenging position having to defend an episode that they basically played a significant role in inciting. regardless of who pelosi seats on this committee, that's something that i would expect republicans as a party to make the key part of their strategy. >> representative himes, you look at the capitol rioter recently sentenced to eight months according to "the new york times." the judge said he had brought goggles and a pair of gloves with him to the capitol as if prepared for conflict. he was also carrying a trump flag and staking a claim on the floor of the united states senate. the judge said not with an
american flag but a flag of a single individual over a nation. congressman, how will democrats use the evidence publicly available to prosecute the case? and what powers might they have to use to unearth additional evidence? >> there's been hundreds of arrests made and indictments issued. having been there, i can tell you that there were some very, very dangerous people there. you remember the photographs of people carrying zip ties around. you remember the noose that apparently was destined for mike pence. some very, very dangerous people. there were also people who were along for the ride. i saw them too. that doesn't in any way, shape or form make what happened on january 6th any less of a threat to our democracy. and so what i think to get to the answer to your question that it's going to be more challenging. one of the most useful things that this committee can do is, is the question of what was the involvement of the white house or people associated with the white house in the planning of this and the instigation of this? we obviously all know that the president said you have to go to the capitol and fight like hell
or you won't have a country anymore. that's a pretty serious instigation. but what else happened? we'll have to deploy subpoenas and other tools at our disposal to get to the answer to that question. and was there a relationship, any kind of relationship between republican members and people who may have shown up the next day? that, i think, will be the work of the committee. to do that, we need to be very, very fact oriented and unpartisan as we can be. this is a case where the facts speak for themselves. >> betsy, i wonder how that squares with the fact that as much as there is this understandable impulse to prosecute this as a legal case, you look at something like the morning consul poll and 29% of gop voters say it's likely trump will be reinstated as president this year. is the real challenge for lawmakers about moving public opinion? >> it's a good question, and i think one perspective on this that's important to bear in mind is that many of these republican voters who believe truly deranged conspiracy theories like that one are likely to be
unpersuadable. they're not going to wait to read a commission's report and sift through facts and change their opinions if they already believe the total nonsense, ridiculous notion that the president is about to be reinstated. and in fact that notion is not just ridiculous, but the senior counterterrorism official at the department of homeland security has told members of congress that it's dangerous and that dhs is concerned about the possibility that there could be some sort of violence incited or perpetuated by people who have bought into that conspiracy theory when august gets here and it passes and they're disappointed to realize that in fact they were sold a bill of goods and trump is not actually being reinstated as president. so it's a challenge for democrats, i think, as well as for most americans to grapple with exactly how much time and energy it makes sense to use to try to persuade people who believe these insane conspiracy
theories that they should be disabused of those notions. >> hayes, when you talk about the ridiculous comparison between the january 6th rioters and black lives matter protesters, it's not just a matter of deflection. the republicans actually believe it is politically a winning strategy for them to make that comparison. >> right. and representative banks is one of the main people who is pushing this idea. he sent a memo out in recent weeks to his members saying to lean into the culture war. to keep pushing this fight over things like critical race theory and whether or not trump actually won the election as a distraction almost to keep voters from noticing that there is no real republican agenda. they're out here trying to keep their base riled up as much as possible. what you see reflected in the choices for this commission, that's why they have banks, as the face of this and jim jordan
named to it. i am very glad, though, that this time around unlike the impeachment saga, this time they're not facing off against the executive branch. this time they're facing off against private citizens. they're trying to kill subpoenas for other members of the legislative branch which the judiciary branch is much more likely to probably let these subpoenas go forward. so in a sense there's a bit of an easier time that the commission will have, especially considering the fact that in the name of being able to yell that things aren't fair, republicans gave up any power that they might have had to influence how this really plays out. they are in the minority. speaker pelosi can reject any of the members that she wants to reject, and there's no real like push that they have. they really have no leverage aside from just yelling as per usual. >> congressman, part of the reason that this is all particularly scary when we talk about this commission, part of it is about accountability, but part of it is making sure we understand what happens so it can never happen again.
you have the former president joining republicans like paul gosar in demanding the unmasking of the officer who shot ashli babbitt. one conspiracy theory with the russian police. the former president has been open and vocal. he still supports the insurrection and insurrectionists. instead of dialing the hysteria down, they are dialing it up. >> well, that's right. and your question points to a larger question, a darker question, that i'm not sure this committee will necessarily get at. this committee will get at what happened on january 6th, what led up to it, what the implications are. it's not going to answer a fundamental question for every american, which is how did we get to a place in this country where, pick your number, but somewhere between 25% and 35% of americans would rather have a sort of authoritarian, maybe even fascist leader, because they would run over constitutional procedure so long as it's their guy, so long as it's donald trump. they are more interested in having donald trump in the presidency than in having the
democracy that has defined this country for two and a half centuries. that's not something this committee will be able to address, but it is something that political leaders need to address and more importantly something people need to address to each other. to those folks who would like to see donald trump president for life, they have to ask themselves, it's not always going to be your guy so why don't we revert to a system where we agree there will be winners and losers and an alteration of power. that's the big, ugly question that sadly i don't think this committee will have the opportunity to get at. >> congressman jim himes, thank you for starting us off. betsy woodruff swan and hayes brown are both staying with us. when we come back, breaking news this afternoon. trump friend arrested on federal charges using his insider status as a foreign influence campaign to lobby the u.s. president. the details and what it means coming up. plus, "washington post" reporters carol leonnig and phil rucker will join us with their
new book "i alone can fix it, donald trump's catastrophic final year." new reporting on just how far he was willing to go hang onto power. and the founder of amazon launching to the edge of space today. critics, however, say a billionaire's money should stay focused on the problems here on earth. all of those stories and more when "deadline white house" continue afs this. "deadline wh continue afs this. millions of vulnerable americans struggle to get reliable transportation to their medical appointments. that's why i started medhaul. citi launched the impact fund to invest in both women and entrepreneurs of color like me, so i can realize my vision and give everything i've got to my company, and my community. i got you. for the love of people. for the love of community. for the love of progress. citi. ♪ ♪
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including illegally lobbying for the united arab emirates, obstructing justice, and making false statements to federal agents. "the washington post" reports federal prosecutors say he capitalized on his friendship with and access to trump and other high-ranking government officials and his relationship with u.s. journalists to advance the policy goals of a foreign government without disclosing their true alliances. on a number of occasions the justice department alleges he pushed the interests of the uae to the trump administration without disclosing that he was working on the country's behalf. a spokesperson for barrack says he will plead not guilty to the charges. joining us now carol leonnig and phil rucker, authors of "i alone can fix it, donald j. trump's catastrophic final year" which we'll get to in a few minutes. carol, barrack is accused of violating federal lobbying laws. how serious of these charges? >> any time federal prosecutors
come after you, it's a fairly big deal. in the sort of pantheon of federal charges, these are probably not the worst ones you can face, but they're serious and he's taking them seriously. he joins a long list of trump friends and insiders who are now charged with felony crimes. and in this case barrack is accused of basically starting to plot and plan in 2016 while the president was -- forgive me, while donald trump was campaigning for president, his good, good friend, billionaire and investor and sidekick was plotting for how he could turn some of his insider connections to the future president to benefit him and his connections with a lot of middle eastern power players. he's close to the united arab emirates leaders. he's also very, very close to the king of saudi arabia. >> phil, as this news broke, all
i could think about was your book and how this just adds to the bigger picture of the world, the universe that donald trump has chosen to build around himself. >> that's exactly right. there are so many figures around former president trump and have been from day one of his presidency who have become ensnared by the law in some form or fashion. his former campaign chairman, his former national security advisor, his former deputy campaign chairman, we could go on and aon. it's just so many figure who say saw an opportunity for themselves when donald trump became elected president to either enrich themselves or to grow and expand their own power and influence, to use their connections to this outsider president and his family and his team for some sort of personal gain. and frankly, it goes -- it's in keeping with the way president trump viewed his own office, which was try to use the power of the presidency for his own
personal and political gain, which of course we detail in that final year in our new book. >> yeah, let's turn to that incredible new book. i had a lot of trouble deciding which part of the book we were going to share with our viewers. we'll start here in the run-up to january 6th. you write senior leaders in the administration and in congress were concerned about whether trump might try to use the powers of the fbi, the cia and especially the military to try to stay in office. starting on december 31st, some of them called milley seeking comfort. everybody is worried about the coup, attempted coups, overseas stuff in iran, one congressman told milley, there's high tension. the military is going to stay out of politics, milley responded. we don't determine the outcome of the election. we don't pick the people in power. everything is going to be okay. we're going to have a peaceful transition of power. we're going to land this plane safely. this is america. the institutions are bending, but it won't break. carol, talk to me about the
anxiety in that inner circle leading up to january 6th. >> you know, i still get chills thinking about when phil and i learned from our reporting those conversations that were going on behind the scenes. i think it's one of the most striking things about our reporting in this book is how panicky and how literally harrowing some of this time period was for pretty seasoned government leaders and military officials who had seen combat. they were starting to wonder and worry that the president and some of his fringe allies, people who were having his ear, whispering conspiracy theories, that they were plotting a coup. and some of the joint chiefs of the army, the navy, the air force and others were talking to general milley, the chairman, about whether or not they should start figuring out a plan for how to block donald trump from using the military, from deploying it to either retain
his grasp on power or create chaos that would benefit him politically. and one of their plots was essentially to resign one by one slowly if the president came with a dangerous, illegal or foolhardy proposal on how to use the military. it was the reverse of the saturday night massacre, if you will. >> phil, part of what kept coming up for me as i was reading the book was that this isn't all just in the rear-view mirror. it is possible to draw a direct line between what happened in those final days and what we are living through now. so you have milley saying the institutions, they might bend but they won't break. i don't know, is that exactly true? you look at these attacks on voting rights, this audit in arizona. are these institutions that are actually holding strong? >> you know, that is such a smart point. and i think what the final year of the trump presidency revealed for all of us is just how fragile these institutions are in this country.
you know, milley is right that democracy held through january 20th. biden was sworn in as president because he was the victor in the election. that was the will of the american people. but the threat has not been extinguished. in fact you have hundreds -- more than hundreds, republican members of congress who opposed certifying the election results. you have all of this controversy surrounding a commission to investigate the january 6th insurrection and you have in donald trump, former president trump, the leader, the current leader of the republican party who's toying with the idea of running for president again. if the primaries were held tomorrow, he would almost certainly be the republican nominee for president in 2024. and so that threat is very much still alive. people like general milley are continuing in their jobs, aware that they may have made it into the biden administration, but this danger for american democracy is certainly not over. >> carol, the verbiage of your book, "i alone can fix this"
that's also being repeated by republicans now, right? they are saying only donald trump can fix the situation that we are in. to what degree have they internalized his own delusion? >> you know, the president had -- forgive me, the former president has really hardened this narrative for himself, as phil and i learned when we interviewed him on the record in mar-a-lago in the spring for this book. and he's also hardened this conspiracy theory narrative, this idea that ideas that don't square with reality are true. the idea that vaccines aren't necessary, that the coronavirus isn't very serious, that hangover is hanging over our country. and he's hardened that for a lot of america because obviously many republicans want the base that donald trump commanded. they want the voters who were in touch with him, who loved him, who adored him, who saw him as a norm buster.
but the problem is a lot of these people have been fed information that's not true. and now republicans have to repeat that series of lies in order to continue to basically pull them towards the voting booth for them. >> i want to talk to you about that hangover specifically as it relates to covid. carol, phil, you are sticking with me on the other side of the break. dr. anthony fauci today visibly still angry with the state of affairs when it comes to the pandemic. carol and phil in their new book write about trump's role in creating this distrust and division. that story is next. next ne a 5g . with all the entertainment you love. like disney+, hulu, espn+, and now google play pass so you can game in glorious 5g. we're calling it the biggest upgrade ever. because it is.
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senator paul, i have never lied before the congress, and i do not retract that statement. senator paul, you do not know what you are talking about, quite frankly, and i want to say that officially. you do not know what you are talking about. i totally resent the lie that you are now propagating, senator. you are implying that what we did was responsible for the deaths of individuals. i totally resent that. if anybody is lying here, senator, it is you. >> whew, a firely moment on capitol hill today. dr. fauci pushing back against accusations by rand paul that he lied about funding for a wuhan lab that may have been the source of the covid-19 outbreak. fauci's clear frustration with
efforts to undermine trust in the medical community comes at a perilous moment in the pandemic with misinformation and vaccine hesitancy helping fuel what the cdc calls a pandemic of the unvaccinated. when asked about the pandemic, trump dodged questions about his role in sowing distrust of the experts and spreading covid misinformation while also defending his handling of the covid outbreak. he said he had been very tough in protecting the country by restricting travel, first from china and then from europe. he said he did so against the wishes of his top medical advisers. in fact, most of them agreed with the restrictions before he made his decision, according to participants in the discussions and their contemporaneous notes. but he correctly said he pushed scientists at the fda at a level they have never been pushed before to get vaccines approved in record time. i think we did a great job on covid and it hasn't been recognized, trump said. we are back with the authors of "i alone can fix it," carol leonnig and phil rucker.
phil, let's get to that great job comment by trump, because it doesn't square with 600,000 people dead, millions sick and millions now do you noting vaccines. >> that's exactly right. as you look at the current environment right now where so many millions of americans doubt the efficacy and the science behind the vaccine and are hearing misinformation, whether it's on conservative media networks or in social media, the root of that is president trump. remember, early in the pandemic it was president trump who was misleading the public with happy talk, saying the virus would evaporate, it would disappear and so forth. then you had president trump promoting these miracle cures, even though the science didn't add up but trying to make people believe that they could take certain drugs or in one instance famously have an injection of bleach into their body and have the virus disappear. and again and again throughout the year we saw him rejecting the medical advice of dr. fauci and of the other medical and health experts in his cabinet
and in his administration because he wanted to look tough. he didn't want to wear a mask. he wanted to be strong and try to win re-election. day after day our reporting shows in this book trump prioritized his own personal political fortunes over the health of the country. >> carol, to that point, there was what we saw publicly and then there was what was happening behind the scenes. there's an excerpt from the book that i want to go to. this is trump raging against alex azar around mid-march. alex, testing is killing me, trump bell owed. it's going to lose me the election. what idiot decided to have the federal government do testing? the whole testing idea was jared's, mr. president, azar said. jared didn't f this up, trump retorted. who f'ed this up? square jared is fixing your problem. why is the cdc doing testing? the cdc had a responsibility to create a model for public health labs. it becomes clear, right, that he doesn't understand the role of
the federal government challenging a pandemic head on. >> well, you know, it's exactly right because he had no patience for any of the complications of the science, any of the complications of, for example, the fact that you need to have trials before you give drugs to hundreds of millions of americans. he had no patience for this idea that testing was really valuable to figure out where the virus was spreading so that they could stop it. remember, at the beginning donald trump didn't want anybody tested and he didn't want anybody who was positive to step onto american soil. initially, he tried to block americans from coming back from china because he didn't want his, quote unquote, numbers to go up. his sole divining principle was how do i have better pr about this nightmare and pretend that it isn't happening rather than how do i protect americans and stop the march of this lethal
virus across this nation. >> right, because -- i'm sorry, go ahead, carol. >> no, no, it's just sort of stunning because it happened for every single member of the insider team who was working so diligently to fight this virus. they had to come smack up against the president all the time. alex azar, tony fauci, deborah birx, everyone had this horrible moment where they tried to get him to do the right thing and he resisted them because it didn't play well on the evening news. >> phil, just as we can connect the dots between the big lie and what we are seeing now in the way of voter suppression across this country, you can also connect the dots between the president's resistance -- the former president's resistance to the science and the vaccine hesitancy that we're seeing today. >> that's exactly right. and it's not just his resistance to the science, but it's his hostility and an attempt to personally demonize the
scientists. so he didn't just reject what dr. fauci was saying, but he tried to make dr. fauci into a punching bag for his political base. trump and his allies made fun of fauci. remember that cartoon that dan scavino distributed on social media mocking fauci. fauci ended up having death threats. he had to have heightened security and he even got a powdery substance in the mail in august of 2020 which we detail in the book that was a really harrowing frightening moment for him. this is a career government scientist trying to do the right thing and trying to get this country out of a pandemic and get people safely to be able to reopen, and he had in the president sort of a schoolyard bully who was just trying to tear him down in part, according to our reporting, because trump was jealous of how popular dr. fauci was in public opinion surveys. >> wow. the bullying has not stopped. carol leonnig, phil rucker,
thanks for spending some time with us. their new book is out today. up next, joe biden has been president for six months. we'll look at the republican forces that are working against him and what can be done about it. an be done a bout it not everybody wants the same thing. that's why i go with liberty mutual — they customize my car insurance so i only pay for what i need. 'cause i do things a bit differently. wet teddy bears! wet teddy bears here! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪
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build back better plan, i think we can turn this great movement into an economic boom for some time to come. i have so much more to do. tackling voting rights, which is an existential threat to democracy right now. things are being asked that are just beyond the pale. >> president biden with his cabinet marking six months in office today on their accomplishments so far and how to tackle the challenges ahead, including attempts to advance his domestic spending plans this week with republicans threatening to block bipartisan legislation tomorrow unless the agreement is finalized by then. perhaps biden's most pressing challenge, the gop's not-so-private plan against elections and democracy. msnbc daily writer and editor hayes brown writes of the three ways republicans are, he says, making democrats incapable of victory. the genius of this plan is that it involves manipulating the outcome at every stage of the election process, before, during and after voters' trips to the polls. taken separately, any one of
them can be an infringement on the people's right to choose their elected officials. together, they're a nightmare for democracy. we're back with betsy woodruff swan and hayes brown. hayes, when you zoom out and argue the gop is doing three main things. redrawing the borders of the battleground states, making the electorates smaller, throwing out results they don't like, they have always done the first two, they just used to do them on the dl. how is their transparency about what it is they're doing and how they're doing it change the way democrats respond? >> this is donald trump's greatest gift to the republican party, the idea that the base doesn't care about democracy, they care about winning and having their guy in office. so his big lie after the election that he actually won, that biden had somewhat manipulated the country and he was an illegitimate president, that idea has taken root inside the republican party. republican leadership is unwilling to push back on that.
so that has really shifted the way that democrats should be thinking about how elections are working moving forward. like you said, redrawing border lines, gerrymandering has been a thing since the 1800s. shrinking the electorate, that's the kind of voter suppression that people are most familiar with thanks to the fight against jim crow. but this new innovation, just throwing out results you don't like, especially in the way that it combines with the other two factors. the way that gerrymandering allows republicans to keep control of the house even though they receive fewer votes nationwide and the fact that the house of representatives, if there is a draw or there's no majority winner in the electoral college as we learned again in the 2020 election, it goes to the house. that was the outcome that trump and his allies were trying to push, the idea that somehow you take it to the house and the house refuses to certify the election and somehow trump becomes the president again. if republicans take back the house in 2022, then in 2024,
then i see them having a very tough choice on whether or not they will actually vote to certify the election of a democratic president, whether that's joe biden's re-election or if another -- or if he steps down and someone else runs. i just -- i think that democrats need to take this idea seriously, especially the way that republican voters in the base are now being primed to expect these challenges, including in arizona and possibly pennsylvania, these audits that trump has been pushing. it all fits together in a really terrible way for democracy. >> betsy, this existential threat to democracy and then you have people actually trying to legislate on capitol hill. can you explain where these bipartisan infrastructure talks are right now? >> look, it doesn't look particularly promising at this point. as for my senate colleagues who reported earlier today, the likelihood that republicans are going to come around and be enthusiastic supporters of this infrastructure project is not particularly high. the reality is that the
republican party sees the biden administration as something of an existential threat to their hold on political power. to give biden a significant win on infrastructure could create possibly political headaches for the republican party. one of the reasons that infrastructure projects are one of the things that the federal government does that people are most aware of, if a bridge in your community gets restored, you see it happening. if broadband internet access gets expanded and it means that it's easier for you to connect with friends and relatives and educators, that's something that you physically encounter in your lived day-to-day life that the government has done, where you can see how exactly the steps that the federal government is taking are affecting you. those types of moves are the kind of things that can be galvanizing politically because people feel a direct connection to government policy, which often instead feels abstract or
a little bit complicated. and so that's something of course that the republican party is acutely aware of and i believe that's part of the reason that members are going to be uncomfortable and hesitant to participate in an undertaking that could give biden a significant political win, because it's the kind of win that could be durable. >> betsy, thank you so much, my friend, for teeing me up beautifully for a story that i was very committed in getting in that everyone was not sure we'd be able to get in. to your point about policy that people can feel in their day-to-day lives, one of the things we're seeing as direct deposits hit for this child tax credit this child tax credit is tax policy going viral on tiktok, which is something i do not get to say everyday. this is from vox. the sudden deposits up to $250 per child ages 6 to 17 and $300 per child under 6 were such a delight to many parents that the hashtags child tax credit and child tax credit 2021 blue up on
tiktok. this is continuation of a trend we also saw with the stimulus checks. it implies check-based programs can avoid some of did worst pga pathologies of the american government and unlock one of the most powerful and positive forces in politics, policy feedback. hayes, i don't know what to say other than we talk a lot about president biden, vice president harris needing to hit the road and sell these policies. i wonder if these tiktok videos are doing a better job selling it than they possibly could. >> absolutely because i am shocked. the child tax credit refund program is a terrible name. i feel like no one would really want to message around that idea. it sounds wonky, it sounds kind of boring, but people are doing it for the biden administration with these tiktok videos. they're pushing out this fact that they're just getting money. that is way more effective than a policy speech delivered in your neighborhood could be. >> when that direct deposit hits, much like when the bead drops you have to dance.
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our kids and their kids can build the future. we have too much vilification in society today and not enough unity, so we want unifiers, not vilifiers. when you look at the planet there are no borders, there's nothing. there is one planet and we share it and it is fragile. >> the world's richest man, jeff bezos, addressing the criticism that tempered what is undoubtedly a monumental achievement this morning. he successfully reached the edge of space in the first unpiloted sub orbital flight with a civilian crew. many noted the ticket, the cost of $28 million, and-today's ten minute, ten second flight it works to about $2.75 million a minute. quite the price tag. but you heard bezos, he framed the endeavor and they reported $5.5 billion of his own money he reportedly put into the blue origin company as an investment in the future. we will let you decide on that
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please take covid seriously. i can't say it enough. enough people have died. we don't need anymore death. research like crazy. talk to your doctor, your doctors, medical professionals you trust based on your unique medical history, your current medical condition, and you and your doctor make a very important decision for your own safety. take it seriously. you also have a right to medical
privacy. doctor/patient confidentiality is also important, and it absolutely makes sense for many americans to get vaccinated. i believe in science, i believe in the science of vaccination. >> wow. hi, everyone. i'm jason johnson in for nicolle wallace. it is 5:00 in the east. a striking message coming from prime time fox news anchor sean hannity last night, a complete departure from the network's usual covid disinformation and vaccine skepticism rants. comments like that if continued would mean big things for the country's fight against covid-19 as andrew egger points out. if fox decides to turn on a dime on this and suddenly go hard core pro-vaccine the number of literal lives saved will not be small. that is because the network for months has fed its audience with misinformation and denialism around covid and farkss. an alarming phenomenon as cases and hospitalizations are once again on the rise, mostly amongst the unvaccination and
vaccination rates are starting to lag. as we have seen, republicans are the most resistant group to getting the vaccine. dr. rob davidson, an emergency room physician in michigan, blames right-wing media for the horrors he has been seeing. he writes in an msnbc think piece, quote, when we tell some patients and their family of a positive covid-19 diagnosis, the response we get too many times is anger, outrage or denial. just a few days ago an older woman came into our emergency room department, refusing to follow hospital policy and wear a mask and flatly refusing, like too many people in our community, to get vaccinated. i don't blame my patients for their refusal. what breaks my heart as someone who took an oath to prevent harm is that my patients choose to abandon the science and evidence that can save their lives. i do blame fox news and other right-wing media outlets for poisoning the minds of millions of americans with the deceptive propaganda they spray into living rooms 24/7. it is in that context why hannity's, "i believe in the
science of vaccination" statement was so notable. before we shower the fox news host with praise for speaking the truth once, here is the problem. that clip we showed was sandwiched between two stories stoking vaccine skepticism. immediately before he said it hannity criticized a judge's decision to uphold a college's vaccine mandate. right after, without even a break in between, he launched into an interview with a young woman who declined to take the covid vaccine because she was temporarily paralyzed after taking a completely different vaccine in 2019. an interesting push and pull emerging across the network as we also saw in this back-and-forth on "fox & friends" yesterday morning. >> if you didn't get a vaccination, that's your choice if you want to go cliff diving this weekend, you don't have to check with me. it seems a little dangerous, but i'm not going to judge you. if you put yourself in danger, if you feel it is not something for you, don't do it, but don't affect my life. >> well, 99% of the people who are dying from covid are
unvaccinated. >> that's their choice. >> they don't want to die. so they are, the administration and the government is saying, we need the mask mandate to protect the unvaccinated. >> that is not their job. >> fox news' role in the battle against the pandemic is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. joirning us is clint watts, former consultant to the fbi counterterrorism division and a distinguished research fellow at former policy institute and msnbc security analyst. also with us, amy stoddard and dr. black stock, founder and ceo of advancing health equity and msnbc medical contributor. thank you for being here. dr. black stock, i will be with you. i watched that hannity clip trying to see if it was a deep fake, trying to see if someone kidnapped him. it was like watching wile e. coyote doing a psa for save the road runners. this is the antithesis of what
fox has been talking about. from a medical standpoint, does that kind of statement from a skeptic like him, is it going to save lives? is there anyone who hasn't gotten vaccinated who heard sean hannity last night and is saying, i guess i should go get a shot? >> what i will say is it is a little too late but it is not too late, but both can be true. we know that misinformation as well as disinformation has been on the airwaves, especially on fox, the entire pandemic and before the pandemic. the fact is that that misinformation has been appealing to the fears of many people, people who have distrust towards science and distrust towards government. it is reassuring to see this pivot and turnaround for some of the commentators, but i think that there needs to be a consistent messaging that vaccines are safe and effective and we still are not getting that from these media outlets. >> a.b., i want to hit you with this. this is not a conspiracy theory, just common sense. i think that maybe one of the reasons why you heard this from
sean hannity is perhaps there may be some concern at fox about lawsuits, right? if you look at the numbers, i mean they got hit with major lawsuits from vote counting companies and polling machine companies, et cetera, et cetera, for all of their conspiracy theories that they were spouting throughout the 2020 campaign. do you think this might be a way to sort of inoculate themselves, no pun intended, from, you know, criticism or a lawsuit from pfizer or defamation from moderna? >> well, i do believe, jason, that there are some suits from families last year before there was a vaccine, whose loved ones had gotten very sick or died of covid-19 who had watched fox news and believed that it was a hoax. so, first it was a hoax, then there were anti-masks, and then there was this, you know, period we're in now where after donald trump leaves office they amplify vaccine hesitancy, just like the segment that hannity did with the woman having to do with a
reaction to a totally unrelated vaccine. it amplifies it every time you hear about a vaccine that harms someone. what is interesting about hannity personally is that he all along, he actually was recommending masks last year. he isn't emphatic about it, he doesn't do it every night, but he has advised people get the vaccine before. it is different, he sandwiched in between tucker's hour at 8:00 and laura's at 10:00 when they're much more critical of the vaccine and how -- you know, the conspiracy theories surrounding why the government wants you to take it. i think that there must be either the white house is talking to fox news. i think there is some concern why pro-vaccine republicans truly -- i mean mitch mcconnell among them, that this is really lead to a bad outcome, that we are now in a stage where we have a bunch of people that don't just hesitate on the vaccine, they refuse to ever take it. what i think the white house
needs to do a little more of, and i would welcome fox news to join them, is to educate americans about the danger of mutating variants because it is not the delta variant that we're going to be talking about next. every time the unvaccinated spread another infection, the disease continues to mutate, and we can be up against a variant that we're not protected from by these vaccines. i think that we would all like fox to join in this rhetoric, but i also think the administration needs to talk about what the unvaccinated are doing to the disease variants and how the outcome could be worse than even the delta is estimated to be now. >> clint, you know, we are looking at these numbers now, and we see that people who say they're getting the majority of their news from fox, only about half of them have bothered to get vaccinated. numbers are lower for people who say they get the majority of their news from news max or oan or anything else like that.
i will ask you, because to me this is not a chicken and egg thing. you are not watching fox and then having your mind changed. you are watching fox because it affirms what you already believe about things. i don't think anybody has been read pill by tucker carlson or sean hannity in 15 years. but what i think is key here is this idea that is this a time for the white house and for democrats in general to try to hold hands together and encourage this? you know, there was a question earlier this week, oh, would joe biden do a psa with donald trump about getting vaccinated. do you think any of those things would actually work? >> i do think so to a degree. you've got to remember what people tend to believe, and part of the reason people are tending to believe these things is between, you know, actual television news and social media news. people tend to believe what they see first, what they see the most, that which comes from a trusted source and that which is not accompanied by rebuttal. that's why a sean hannity rebuttal, like actually pushing for the vaccine is so important
for getting the message through because you are starting to break down that wall. i think that's what is essential. i think the other thing is every time that you can get inside that information bubble for those that just are refusing it or have been told so many times conspiracies about vaccines, is it is ultimately about information cascades. can you change the balance of that information diet? so if they're hearing more pro-vaccine message which is accurate versus false anti-vaccine message. so that's why i think that sean hannity clip is significant even if it is only one time because it is breaking down that wall, and you are also seeing some other things that just are actual reality. you cannot be pro-business and anti-vaccine. we see what the markets do whenever the virus is spreading. you cannot be pro-education and anti-vaccine because we can't get kids back to school. so we're having a collision of realities over time, that anti-vax movement that we can't get people fully vaccinated will
ultimately harm all of us collectively and many people individually. >> clint, that is actually a great point. i have seen lots of people, i have this discussion with people. i think in many ways the administration in the past, the trump administration, they prioritized business over public health last year and now we're recognizing that you can't get business going without decent public health today. that's part of the issue we're running into. but i will also say this. some of this is about disinformation. some of this is just about ideology. i promise you if hilary clinton and maxine waters and aoc announced tomorrow they were anti-vax, suddenly all of the red states would be vaccinated. some of this is just being oppositional. speaking of sort of conspiracies you alluded to, marjorie taylor greene who is a congresswoman who seems to spend more time on television than passing policy in georgia, had her twitter account suspended for posting misinformation. she was suspended to read only for about 12 hours. a.b., one, from a pure marketing
and branding standpoint, does it actually hurt marjorie taylor greene at all? second, is twitter actually accomplishing anything by banning people for this kind of misinformation? because it is not like anyone was waiting to get marjorie taylor greene's opinion. they can find the same nonsense on youtube. >> i know the policies of removal and temporary bans from the social media platform are so arbitrary and so ineffective it is just enraging. but, no, they helped marjorie taylor greene and she will make a huge fundraising boon out of this, attacking big-tech censorship. it will be a wonderful 12 hours for her. no, no one was looking for vaccine information from her, but she has a massive following and they will reward her for all of her outrage, and this definitely will bear fruit for her. >> i keep saying this. how many times -- we have to stop retweeting crazy, then you
don't have these kinds of problems. i want to play this sound for dr. blackstock. this was a very, very heated exchange between honesty and ridiculousness yesterday between dr. fauci and rand paul. what are your thoughts on the other side? >> dr. fauci, knowing that it is a crime to lie to congress, do you wish to retract your statement of may 11th where you claimed that the nih never funded gain of function research in wuhan? >> senator paul, i have never lied before the congress and i do not retract that statement. and, senator paul, you do not know what you are talking about, quite frankly. i want to say that officially. you do not know what you are talking about. >> let's -- >> okay. you are implying that what we did was responsible for the deaths of individuals. i totally resent that. >> and it could have been. >> anybody is lying here -- >> and it could have been. >> -- senator, it is you. >> wuhan.
he put rand paul in check. dr. blackstock, look, that exchange is important because i think we need more people pointing out the disingenius bad faith questions of members of the senate, but i also question is that sort of reflective of the feeling of doctors like yourself and public health experts, like this point has been going on for a year. we are sick and tired of hearing this nonsense from people who are supposed to be elected officials concerned about everybody's health? >> no, agreed. i think that was the reaction we needed from dr. fauci over a year ago. the fact is that we have elected officials that are disseminating misinformation and disinformation and then not being held accountable for it. you know, rand paul is an eye doctor. he does not have a background in infectious disease or epidemiology, and he is giving out information on whether or not people should be vaccinated or not. i think that the surgeon general's call for combatting misinformation obviously is timely, but i think it is a
little bit too late. i think it needs to be more aggressive. we need to know that, you know, the folks that are putting this misinformation out there are -- this is a concerted effort. it is not grassroots groups. these are large, influential, well-funded groups like rfp jr.'s children's health defense. they are targeting communities, especially communities of color, with this misinformation that is going to be and has been deadly. >> i want to stay with you for a second, doctor. last night on "the reidout," and i those it was a very important point, you said, look, we need to start moving towards vaccine mandates, we need to start making it clear, businesses need to start making it clear that vaccine mandates are important. you've got some support. other people have been writing about this. tell us a little bit about why you have come to that conclusion and how likely you think it is that businesses are going to start adopting it. >> well, i definitely want to say that there are, you know, equity considerations to have vaccine mandates. i want to make sure we continue to break down those barriers to
accessing vaccines. but i think we are at a vaccine impasse so to speak with a large proportion of the population. i think that there are certain environments like health care environments where absolutely we need vaccine mandates. there are people with weaken it immune systems, we need to protect our patients. university settings, i think vaccine mandates are a must. we know they have been hot spots. i think that employers need to step up, because what we've seen in some of the surveying of people who are unvaccinated is that they will be moved if their employers want them to get vaccinated or require them to get vaccinated. i think right now to get over that impasse the mandates will do the job. >> a.b., i want to close with this because this to me, i look at this as an economics issue. if i am running a business, if i am running a painting company, if i am running a small grocery store or something else like that, i'm going to make vaccinations required for my employees because i don't want them getting sick and having to pay their health care or losing
an employee. how likely is it do you think this is going to be adopted? the federal government may not be able to do it, but the private sector, i would think there's a lot of incentive. >> oh, i definitely do. it has been interesting how the biden administration has tried to tiptoe around this issue and really hold back from doing it. they're saying that the idea is fine, but they're not really get into the debate. the doctor is right. the polling shows if your pastor tries to push the vaccine or your mother-in-law or your friend or someone in the news or dr. fauci, you are not going to take it. but if your boss does, it is more likely that you will change your mind. i think a lot of people are going to expect that businesses will be mandating vaccines, and those who do do better. so it is an interesting debate, but i think the private sector will answer it for us. >> i'm a lot more comfortable going indoors to eat if it says, hey, all of my staff is vaccinated. dr. uche blackstock, thank you for starting us off this hour.
clint watts and a.b. stoddard are sticking around. the news breaking late this afternoon thomas barack has been arrested on foreign lobbying charges. that's next. plus, house republican leader kevin mccarthy makes his pick for those investigating the insurrection, and three of the five members of congress he picked voted to overturn joe biden's election victory. what could go wrong? and is the ohio special election a proxy battle for progressives and main line democrats or a local race between those with big pockets since it is the only federal race going on right now? "deadline: white house" continues right after a quick break, so don't go anywhere. break, so don't go anywhere.
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more legal trouble today stemming from the trump presidency. surprise. tom barrack, a close friend of the former guy who also headed his 2017 inaugural committee was arrested in los angeles on federal charges. police say he and two other men illegally acted as an agent for the united arab emirates, lobbying trump on its behalf and providing sensitive information about developments within the administration. a spokesman says he will be pleading not guilty and has, quote, made himself voluntarily available to investigators from the outset. let's bring in nbc news investigation correspondent tom winter and msnbc contributor joyce vance. tom, let's start with you. how serious is this? i want this to be clear because a lot of people in the public think, oh, isn't this the kind of stuff people do all the time in administrations? aren't they always sort of sharing information and doing favors? how serious are these charges
right now and how do they sort of play out as opposed to other charges we've heard against former trump people? >> a couple of things. first off he is faced with two discrete columns of charges. on the firsthand you have the failure to register as a foreign agent. i will come back to that. the second part of this is lying to the fbi and obstruction of justice tied to his interview, several interviews that he did with federal agents. the last interview he did with them is almost over two years ago in june of 2019. so when you look at this as far as the charged conduct, typically lying to the fbi, there's not that kind of a stiff of a penalty in and of itself. it might become a little more severe because he did it in conjunction with another crime, which gets us back to the first column, which is this failure to register as a foreign agent. you know, typically in the past this has been something that has been handled through civil filings and through the justice department civil division. it is not something that is
typically, even though it falls under the national security division, it is not something that is typically heavily enforced or enforced certainly at a criminal level. that started to change when robert mueller came on the scene, and that was one of the primary charges and tools that he went after paul manafort on. i think people need to think about this stepping outside of what's serious from a statutory standpoint and into what is serious when we think about american politics. to your point, it is quite common for people to try to get access to administration, to move in better position themselves with respect to their agenda, for whomever they represent whether it be industry, private causes, whatever that might be. but when it involves a foreign government who, of course, is not -- they're not american citizens. they're not lobbying somebody that they elected or somebody that they could elect, i think that may raise some much more serious questions as far as what
was going on here. what did mr. barrack gain from all of this? i think that's an open-ended question because we don't see anything about it in the indictment. prosecutors are not required here to prove some sort of monetary benefit. so i think it is a big unanswered question. what did tom barrack get as a result of this? we don't have it from the charging documents and we don't have it from the allegations so far. so i think that's interesting, what type of benefit he may have received. but i think when we step back and look at this, we have somebody who according to the allegations today, and as you said tom barrack intends to plead not guilty to them, somebody who is actively pushing united arab emirate causes with this white house, with the trump administration, while, as you said, at the same time providing key nonpublic information back to the uae. also, saudi arabia is mentioned in the detention and removal order today for tom barrack and his relationship with them. so did they get some sort of a
side benefit as well? some of that nonpublic information was the thinking, according to federal prosecutors, of other high-level trump officials, what were they thinking about on issues that may materially impact the united arab emirates. the conduct itself appears, if proven true, to be quite serious. >> joyce, in addition to that great layout we just got there, you know, we are hearing that tom barrack is also being investigated, the part of the charges have to do with obstruction and lying. what do we know about the obstruction? where would obstruction come into play? is that a fancy way of saying he lied to the fbi which obstructs them from finding information or is there something more specific he is accused or suspectd of doing? >> so this indictment comes in seven counts. tom gives us a great layout, and he tells us that the charges come in two columns, the fara accounts and the account related to obstructing justice.
those charges too seem to break into two columns. some would appear to involve lying to investigators, making material lies in the course of an investigation. but there's also one count in the indictment that talks about obstruction in connection with a grand jury. it is not entirely clear what conduct that involves on barrack's behalf, but it is an indication these charges are very serious. prosecutors take any efforts to tamper with the grand jury, whether it is through a witness or a subject's own testimony or efforts to influence testimony or documentary evidence of others, that's always taken very seriously because it goes to the integrity of the criminal justice process. >> tom, i want to go back to you on this. actually, i will get both of your thoughts. i'm looking at this now. if we look at this previous administration, we could put it on screen, the number of people who have been indicted or under investigation, we've got campaign chairman paul manafort.
campaign ceo steve bannon. national security advisor michael flynn. i mean on and on and on. the question that i'm always brought back to is, is there any way that a former president could plausibly say that he wasn't aware of some of this wrongdoing? it just seems like there's too many people who had to be in close contact with him sharing information with him for him to not at some point be found guilty or at least a khouw conspirator in some of the behaviors? >> speaking specifically today's indictment, i think one of the things interesting in some ways is the united states here is the victim here, the charges are the united states of america versus thomas bar rack and other people charged here. but in some ways the trump administration is a victim as well. if, in fact, they did not know what thomas bar rack was up to, and there's no indication at least from the court papers they were, then, yes, they were victimized by somebody trying to push them in specific policy
directions totally without their knowledge while they're working on behalf of a foreign government. that's very serious. so time will tell whether or not there's more to this story. you can be sure that there's a lot of unanswered questions in this indictment that myself and my colleagues here at nbc news and presumably competing news organizations are trying to track down. that's number one. number two, i think there's a couple of different avenues here. thomas barrack, long-time friend of the president, two people very familiar with each other from the real estate and development industry. i think when you look at this, you start to look at other players. what were the people that the president specifically knew and knew for a long period of time, should he have known better? and then what were some of the people that kind of joined the campaign as it was ramping up and was enough vetting being done? i think when you look at paul manafort and his personal financial situation and his ties abroad, there probably should have been a lot more vetting that was done. the story that i wrote with my
colleague ken delaney and that appears in the mueller report, or is cited in the mueller report, i should say, was all based off public documents. the information contained in there would have been no different than anybody doing appropriate vetting for the trump campaign, so how much did the trump campaign style and kind of a loose, ad hoc nature that they prided themselves on, how much did that lead to the graphic you showed of all of the people charged. i think that's something history will take a hard look at. >> imagine that. more foreign influence in the previous administration. tom winter and joyce vance, thank you for joining us today. >> when we return, house republican leader kevin mccarthy looks to blow up the committee investigating the capitol riot by naming members who voted to overturn joe biden's election victory. that's next. that's next. millions of vulnerable americans struggle to get reliable transportation to their medical appointments. that's why i started medhaul. citi launched the impact fund to invest in both women and
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after weeks of speculation about just who kevin mccarthy would appoint to the select committee to investigate the capitol insurrection, the minority leader announced his choices yesterday to no real surprise, confirming what we knew to already be true, that his picks would serve to sabotage the committee. jim banks will serve as the top republican on the panel alongside rodney davis, kelly armstrong, troy nehls and jim jordan, a close champion of the former blogger guy in florida. out of five republican members, bank, jordan and nehls, objected
to certifying joe biden's election results on january 6th, while all but davis voted on against the creation of investigating the insurrection. mac kargtie's picks show his full plans toward the committee as greg sargent writes in "the washington post". the appointment of two people whose obvious role is to sabotage like banks, jordan played a big role if sowing doubts about 2020, showing that mccarthy must do all he can to muddy up a full accounting. he cannot reveal what it was, a non--tliflan faction of the gop. we are black with clinton watts and a.b. stoddard. thank you for coming back. i will start with a quote from banks. this is a guy that actually will be on a committee that is supposed to be investigating january 6th. clint, i with like to hear your thoughts when i am done. if democrats were serious about investigating political violence, this committee would
be studying not only the january 6th riot at the capitol but also hundreds of violent political riots last summer when many more innocent americans and law enforcement officers were attacked. make no mistake, nancy pelosi created this committee solely to malign conservatives and to justify the left's authoritarian agenda. clinton, should this guy even be on this committee? >> jason, he is just -- yeah, he is just going to be this term's devin nunes. i mean they will come up with some term, i'm guessing it will be antifa, right? it can't be dossier this time. it will be hard to work in. he will repeat it for several weeks during hearings. half of the questions will largely be a waste of time for whoever the witnesses are that are there, the other half will be productive, and we will only get a partial view and it will be very confused throughout all of these where witnesses will come up there, they'll try to do their best to provide answers. it will be very hard for the public to understand. so it is a half a committee, you know, that will be looking at
this and it is just a sad testament because those are people that were there that day. you know, they know what was going on in the capitol. they're very aware of how dangerous this was for our country. and as we learn more from some of the recent books that are out, it is just absolutely crucial that we understand the constitutional issues that we did face that day. was vice president mike pence about to be murdered, number one? number two, was he actually commanding the military to a degree because the president was just not available. i mean, as somebody who served in the u.s. military it is hard for me to fathom that the president was impossible to get hold of or people weren't communicating with him or that he might be trying to orchestrate a coup or use the military domestically to try to overturn the election. those are very serious issues. i can think of no more serious issue for our country. >> a.b., my fault all along with this has been you shouldn't allow -- nancy pelosi shouldn't allow anybody on this committee who wasn't in favor of a january 6th independent commission to
begin with. do you think it would be a wise move for her to basically say, yeah, no, no, this person -- you guys can't join the committee. i know that they're just bringing you off the bench to gum up the game because you guys are losing. do you think it would be a bad decision on her behalf or do you think she should let in these guys knowing full well they will just try to derail whatever is trying to be accomplished. >> jim jordan was always going to be on this committee and nancy pelosi should just proceed. i don't think she is going to view those picks, i think she knew they were coming and she is going to let mccarthy and the republicans live the hand that they've already shown us. they are intent on creating what they think will be a counter-narrative about how the majority party failed to protect the capitol police and wasn't ready for the insurrection at the capitol, and they think that bashing pelosi, who is not the boogie woman she was eight years ago is going to help them with their fundraising. i think that it is going to be a really tough, tough time for
them when more is revealed. but they -- i think the democrats should just proceed and do the best job that they can. i think giving them the out by vetoing those picks just allows them another talking point that she is partisan and doesn't care and, you know, there were some people that voted to certify the election and one member, rodney davis, who was in support of the negotiated terms of the 1/6 commission, so she is so unfair and she is just out to get us. i think it is the smarter move to just proceed. >> i think speaker pelosi should just introduce a dress code. you have to wear a jacket. then jim jordan can't be there. clinton watts and a.b. stoddard, thank you for spending time with us this afternoon. when we return, a battle for the heart and soul of the democratic party, drawing major political players to the state of ohio. that's next.
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caucus's political action committee has endorsed brown. so have hillary clinton and james clyburn who will be there campaigning for her. in turn liberal activists have returned to ms. turner's defense. her campaign raised $4.5 million for a primary. representative alexandria ocasio-cortez of new york will be knocking on doors. sharl au alter, senior correspondent for "time" and author of the book "the ones we've been waiting for." dr. carter, i will start with you. i am always skeptical when from 3,000 miles away political pundits say this is a proxy battle and this is a battle between sanders and clinton or sanders and obama or something else like that. we heard the same thing during the democratic primary in georgia in 2018 with stacey abrams and stacey evans.
as a political scientist, do any of these larger ideological manners, like do they matter to the local voters in ohio? aren't they just looking at who will be the best representative as opposed to a d.c. battle? >> absolutely i think it matters to us, but i think you are talking about the policies of ohio 11. the folks there will be thinking about who they see on a regular basis, who has done the most for them lately, as janet jackson would say. so i don't think any of these sort of questions about whether this is going to be a sanders/biden proxy battle will hold much water with the voters of the county because really those people are concerned about lots of day-to-day things that federal government just can't address. so they're going to be thinking about who have i seen in my community, who do i know and who knows me and who can speak to me. >> and i think what is key about that, dr. carter, is think about it. they've had two really good representatives. you had stephanie tubbs jones who was an icon, then you had marcia fudge. she was the head of the congressional black caucus. those voters are looking for
somebody who can actually deliver because that's what they've been used to. sharla, i want to get your thoughts from this quote from "the bulwark" from tim smith and tim miller. as a result of turner's bernie boosterism, online discussion of the race has broken down along the same democratic fissures apparent during the last two primaries. for the folks on the very online left it feels like groundhog day. this special election will be the latest test of progressive muscle following a series of face-plants beginning with bernie's collapse in the 2020 primary and extending to the virginia gubernatorial and new york city mayoral primaries this year. i have to ask you and maybe i am being sort of cynical here, you know, again, is anybody in ohio city, in tremont, in bedford, are they thinking about the new york city race? is that the kind of thing you think matters to people locally? >> i think, you know, building off what dr. carter said, which i completely agree with, there's
really two democratic parties here. there's the -- or two visions of democratic politics here. there's the vision that's trying to actually win races on the ground in which you are actually, you know, deeply concerned with what voters in cuyahoga county are looking for and who they feel best represents them. then there's the battle for the narrative of what the future of the party might be. unfortunately for progressives right now, the last couple of years they've made a lot of progress on that second rung where they have been able to really kind of shape the conversation in real ways and force politicians to talk about issues that they hadn't been talking about, force the contours of debate open so that things like cancelling student debt, things like medicare for all are now on the table. but they have not been as successful at actually putting points on the board. i think this is one more test of, you know, whether some of
those ideas that do very well in these online discussions, that do very well in these kind of theoretical spaces actually win votes in places where it matters for democrats. >> dr. carter, we've seen that, right? there's an obscene amount of money being raised, both by the turner campaign and the brown campaign, and we are seeing such high-level people going in. we have james clyburn, who is known as sort of the closer. he is coming in. you had a surrogate from nina turner, the rapper coming in. you have bernie sanders coming in. you had pastors doing a press conference about mud shrinking on monday. i guess my question is, is a victory even possible for either side? if former state senator wins, does that necessarily mean that the progressive wing -- i mean maybe you get an additional member of the squad but it is not going to change the democratic party. if brown wins, does that necessarily mean that the centrists have won? what does a victory look like for either side? >> well, i think the thing the
democrats are thinking about is who is really a democrat at the end of the day. i think there's real concern for some that nina turner is running as a democrat but really is not a democrat, right, that she wands to be either a third party or wants to undo the party. i agree with charlotte, that i'm not sure that anybody wins here, quite frankly, because the party needs to really decide who it wants to be moving forward. they can't please every constituency. and i think that right now the reason you have clyburn and others showing up is because there is a wing of the party that does not want to be pushed further left. they view it as, you know, undermining their efforts to win, particularly in places like ohio that are becoming increasingly red, and they have to win moderate whites of both parties. so they view people like nina turner or the alexandria ocasio-cortezs as dangerous to the longer terms ends of winning national elections. but i think, you know, at the end of the day the party is in a
real pinch. they have to be a party of the next century, and clearly a lot of what they are talking about on the progressive side is resonating with a lot of younger voters. unfortunately, those same younger voters are unreliable, and this is going to be a summer race and those people may not show up in the same way that sort of -- if we want to use it, more traditional democrats who are more moderate and who tend to be older will, quite frankly. >> and i want to close with this, dr. carter. i think it is key. a lot of the polling has shown -- turner campaign showed her she had 50% lead a month ago and the latest poll that came out from the brown campaign that says the race is down about a six point race. my skepticism of any of these polls, they got undecided of anywhere of 15% to 20%. where do you think those voters are likely to go.
what are you likely to do at this point? >> i think people are going to go with
what they know. nina turner is a well respected politician, she proven herself to be pragmatic. i think she knows ohioans well. >> deontay brown has been consistently in the state of ohio. turner had the opportunity to expand her voice. i do think at the end of the day, voters may go with what they know. that may not be enough to push people one way or another. >> i hope they don't end up staying home. >> thank you so much for spending some time with us today. we'll return and under the radar story, worthy of a lot more national attention, we'll be right back after this on "deadline white house." s on "deadline white house. ♪
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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ summer is a state of mind, you can visit anytime. savor your summer with lincoln. a story perhaps worth more attention. april 1st, 1100 unionized coal miners walked off the job of what they call a betrayal. it goes back five years. another company warrior met coal, came into run the mind. he so-called promised to revisit the agreement after five years.
you may see where this is going. the company started earning money and looked hoised to cash in. despite offers and counter offers, no new deal have been established for the workers. generous offers like $1.50 raise spread out in the five years. for 110 days into the strike now and both sides have dug in, this is taken place half a tank of gas away from amazon or we are hearing from strikes and unionization a couple of weeks ago. this is a story we'll keep an eye for you. we'll be right back on "deadline white house." back on "deadline white house. e once told me, that i should get used to people staring. so i did. it's okay, you can stare.
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thank you so much for being with us this hour. ari melber with "the beat" starts right now. >> so many m's, these hand offs getting richer and richer. you are good at it. we begin with breaking news on a new indictment hitting trump world. the feds indicted one of donald trump's top adviser and money men, we are talking about brand new member, arrested for influencing and obstruction of justice. that makes this a legal double shot. prosecutors say tom