tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC July 23, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
pharrell williams. released the song "entrepreneur" with jay-z last summer. he put method to the music and founded the nonprofit black ambition, which is an organization that funds startups and they just released their new startups today. 34 entrepreneurs received at least $15,000, and there were two grand prize winners. one received a million dollars and another hbcu received one. so that's my who won the week. thank you so much, cari champion and latosha brown. i'm way over. i will see you tomorrow for "the cross connection" my guests including joaquin castro and christine plaskett. "all in" with chris hayes. tonight on "all in." >> it is time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the regular folks. it is the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down. >> a governor who made vaccine
passport's illegal lashes out at the unvaccinated. tonight the backlash politics standing in the way of vaccination, and how the vaccine fight today echos the seatbelt fight of the '80s. >> i oppose it on the basis that it replaces the free will of the individuals with the desires of the state. then the accused foreign agent from the former president's inner circle out of jail on a $250 million bond. plus -- >> can we really believe that their patent pending system, we can bring sexy back to construction? >> the guy who sunk $30 million into building trump's wall now looking for a buyer. a big moment in baseball as the cleveland guardians step up to the plate. >> you see there's always been cleveland. that's the best part of our name. >> when "all in" starts right now. ♪ ♪ good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. after essentially doing nothing, frankly to encourage
vaccination and encouraging anti-vaccine forces, republican officials across the country are dealing with the delta variant wreaking havoc across their states, wreaking havoc across all states because, of course, covid did not go anywhere. the variant is highly transmissible and a lot of people are unvaccinated. together that spells a bad situation, and it is not a good situation for anyone. it is obviously human tragedy. you may have seen this report from a doctor in alabama earlier this week that sent chills up my spine. she writes, quote, i'm admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious covid infections. one of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine. i hold their hand and tell them that i'm sorry, but it is too late. alabama right now lacks -- ranks last in the nation in vaccinations, just 34% of its population fully vaccinated. cases and hospitalizations are surging yet again across the state thanks to the delta variant. you can see those upticks on the right of your screen. republican officials who thought
they could just kind of sit back and let the biden administration handle the vaccination push and flirt with the anti-vaccine sentiments in their political base are now trying to get another outbreak under control. let's be clear. outbreaks are bad for their states. they're bad for any state, republican or democrat. they're bad for people, of course, who get sick and die. they are bad for hospitals that get overrun and stretched to a breaking point, and they're bad for business. i mean we've seen this time and time again. when a covid outbreak gets bad, no matter what government policy is even in states that keep stuff open people stop doing things. they stop driving around. they stop going out to eat. tourists stop visiting. and so this is the conundrum republican governor indicate ivey of alabama finds herself in. two months ago she signed a bill banning public institutions and private businesses in alabama from requiring vaccines. now she is blaming the unvaccinated for the state's plight.
>> reporter: governor, you talk about the vaccine saving lives, but alabama still is last in the country when it comes to vaccination rates. besides, you know, this emotional plea you just gave us, what is it going to take to get people to get shots in arms? >> i don't know. you tell me. folks supposed to have common sense. but it is time to start to blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the regular folks. it is the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down. >> reporter: as the leader of the state, don't you think it is your responsibility to try and help get this situation under control? >> i've done all i know how to do. i can encourage you to do something but i can't make you take care of yourself. >> now, i've been spending a lot of time on this program and as a reporter trying to think about and research on how to get unvaccinated people vaccinated. let's be clear, there are a million different reasons people are not vaccinated yet. it is not one reason, not because people like donald trump or they have conservative politics, it runs did gamut. that's it. i'm not sure that the kay ivey
guilt trip method is the way to go. there's a straightforward path, not a legal requirement from the government but rather for various institutions, venues and employers to require their people to get vaccinate it. it has not happened much but we're seeing a preemptive push against that from the right. we have seen people balking at the idea of being forced to do anything. we even heard it in the amazing clip we showed you last night from a louisiana man in the hospital recovering from covid. >> before you got sick, if you had a chance to get the vaccine and prevent this, would you have taken the vaccine? you would have gone through this? >> i would have gone through this. yes, sir. don't shove it down my throat. that's what local, state, federal administration is trying to do, is shove it down your throat. >> reporter: what are they shoving, the science? >> no, they're shoving the fact it is their agenda. the agenda is to get you
vaccinated. >> i don't want to get vaccinated because you want me to get vaccinated is the argument there. it is your agenda to get me vaccinated, therefore i don't want to. don't shove it down my throat. it may be hard to believe but we've been here before, something similar. it was nearly 40 years ago a fight like this one happened in this country about requiring a public health measures that would save lives, and conservatives across the country fought against it and they lost, thank goodness. they lost that battle so thoroughly and completely you may not remember how huge of a fight it was at the time. >> every morning 365 days a week, most everybody in richland village, michigan, gathers at the park view to talk about the burning issues of the day. these days there is only one. >> i think everybody is in too much shock to explain it. >> reporter: it is a new seatbelt ordinance. if the town council gets its way seatbelts will be mandatory for everybody riding in the front seat of a car through richland. >> i will have to detour the town to get to kalamazoo if they
pass the bill because i don't use a seatbelt. >> if i get caught, i get caught i guess. >> reporter: the richland village council meets one night each month and hardly anyone but the council hardly attends these meetings, which may be why so many were shocked when they read in the local paper that the council unanimously requested an ordinance the community is almost unanimously opposed to. for such a small town, one mile square, 435 people, richland gets lots of traffic, though nobody can remember the last time there was a serious accident. but if everybody has to buckle up or pay a $10 fine, businessmen say they will stop and shop and get their haircut somewhere else. customers agree. >> maybe stop there, put the seatbelt on and you move further up, i stop here for him then i move around the corner quick to go to the hardware store and i don't have the seatbelt on and somebody sees me, it costs me $10. why bother? >> i think many are mad enough about it they're not going to run the risk of a ticket. >> reporter: meanwhile, the town council is standing by its guns.
>> people think they will be harassed and this is not our intent at all. >> reporter: their intent, they say, is to save lives and set a good example. there's an election here in march. by then the town's two police officers will likely be enforcing a new seatbelt ordinance. after then, there might be a new city council. >> now, doesn't all of that sound familiar? i feel like i have heard that same interview but about masks and vaccines, maybe even in the state of michigan. how dare you tell me what to do? the month after that report in march 1984, richland village voted the seatbelt ordinance down. 145-51. they were overruled by a michigan state law the following year and eventually 49 states in the union passed laws mandating seat belts. across country a fax of people resisted. under no circumstances do they want to be required to wear a seatbelt. >> i oppose it on the basis that it replaces the free will of the individual with the desires of the state. >> you can't force people to do things, you know. they think that it is necessary,
they'll do it. if they don't think so -- >> the question here is whether we have the right, whether we have the responsibility, whether we have the judgment to turn to the citizens of this state and be there in 1984 and be their big brother. >> in fact, i recently learned something from my aunt, my dad's sister, about my departed grandfather, a man i loved very, very much. roger hayes, nicknamed the bear, he was an airline pilot his whole life, an absolute committed conservative. staunch republican, devout catholic. went to mass every day. incredibly pro life. hated communism, big brother and the government. and i learned from my aunt refused to wear a seatbelt out of a commitment to personal autonomy until it became the law. then you know what he did? he buckled up. a lot of people did it once they were forced to. they kind of sucked it up and did it. stopped being a debate. what happened was a lot of lives
got saved. this chart shows the drop in the rate of fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles traveled since 1980. the first mandatory seatbelt law was passed in new york in 1984. now, again, in this circumstance i don't think the government like states should be requiring vaccines right now because i think it is likely to create as much backlash as it does compliance. but instead what we're seeing is states doing the opposite. several republican-run states stepped in to ban private entities from requiring vaccines. in addition to alabama, as i mentioned earlier, those bans are in place in florida, iowa, montana and texas. florida is even trying to get the cdc to stop requiring cruise ships, of all things, to require vaccination. i mean that's way, way, way more insane to me than telling municipalities they can't require their own drivers to buckle up. we also live in a different media environment in the year 2021, and to be honest i do not know if the seatbelt debate
would have gone the same way if fox news was around in 1984. i mean there probably would have been hosts on air every night urging people to drive around at 70 miles per hour without a seatbelt in the front seat because they had the freedom to launch their heads through windshields, and if they died that way, well, they died for freedom, like soldiers on the battlefield, martyrs to the cause of freedom, just like how donald trump told americans to get out there and martyr themselves for freedom in the face of covid. but what did happen with the seatbelt debate? is that eventually both the law and the culture changed and wearing your seatbelt became a norm and people stopped fighting about it. turned out that putting on a seatbelt was not the road to serfdom, not some enormous imposition. just kind of makes everyone safer, saves a lot of lives. thank god that became the status quo. that should be what we're aiming for here as a precedent at a time when we are protected as possible from covid. way few people are getting sick,
way few people are dying and we're not having these fights. maybe one way to get there is for institutions, universities, venues, employers to simply say, we're going to require you to get vaccinated if you want to participate. mathew balm is the professor of public policy at harvard school. he has been researching the attitude towards vaccination. brandi has been reporting on the spread of vaccine misinformation online. let me start with you, professor bom on what your research says. i found interesting things and maybe you can give us the top line on how people feel about vaccination requirements, whether from the government or private institutions? >> so we found that the public is actually pretty supportive of government mandates, local, state and federal, over six in ten have told us in multiple
surveys now that they would be in favor of this both across the board, everyone needs to get vaccinated as well as in specific situations like getting on an airplane or to go back to in-person school. we found, somewhat surprisingly, a lot less support for private businesses to institute mandates. in fact, about half that level of support on average. so the public seems to be willing to go farther than our political leaders seem inclined to take them. >> now, it is a fascinating and to me counterintuitive result because i think of state mandate as a maximum amount of coercion and private businesses requiring it, say, for customers as more of a nudge. what you are finding is that people support the former more, what to me feels more maximally coercive than each individual business or venue or institution taking it into its own hands.
>> yes, that's exactly right. our intuition was the same as yours. we weren't necessarily expecting this. in fact, the only group where we found majority support for, you know, so-called vaccine passport's by private businesses was democrats and that was just over 50%. you know, i can speculate as to the cause. we don't have very strong evidence, but you can imagine it might have something to do with the fear of businesses discriminating in different ways versus sort of broad-based government requirements, or people might have more confidence. >> brandi, i'm curious. it has been striking to me how the anti-vaccine or vaccine skeptical/hesitant arguments i have heard are neatly divided between stuff about the vaccine, a lot of information about what the side effects are or its testing and then just resistance to the idea of being coerced or forced to do it. i'm curious what role that plays in the rhetoric you have been
reporting on. >> well, you know, like you said before, chris, it is really important to recognize that people that don't want to take the vaccine or are vaccine hesitant, they're not a monolith. there are lots of different reasons why people don't want to get vaccinated or people who say they won't get vaccinated. there is a language contingent of people who are the fox news-guzzling far-right, desantis loving people who are sort of like don't tread on me and somehow vaccination is something that makes them think that that is government overreach. so that's what they're against. you know, what is notable to me is that all of these groups, what really combines them is that, you know, i'm an internet reporter, and even the reasonable folks, like nine out of ten times when i hear something that somebody is saying about the vaccine, a rumor, misinformation, nine out of ten times i can tell you where on the internet that came from. so true anti-vaccination people, they're a really small bunch, but the issue is that, you know,
they're very loud and social media is very good at spreading this messaging. so everybody is sort of lumped into these crazy anti-vaxxer people, and then those people are all demonized as anti-vaxxers and then it becomes this really unhelpful cycle. i think a lot of what we're seeing too about don't shove it down my throat is public perception that everybody that doesn't want the vaccine is a crazy anti-vaxxer, and that's just not helpful. >> that's a great point. i also wonder what -- if you think there are implications for policy, mathew, from your pup opinion data. i mean we know that i think the biden administration has been treading very carefully on this. the biden administration has issued a directive that federal agencies cannot mandate it for in-person work return. that's a step they took, and i think, you know, a lot of private employers, this is interesting today, one of the sort of partnership for new york city business groups in new york said, new york city employers would be relieved if the federal government issued some kind of
vaccine mandate. so you have the private sector waiting on the government, the government not wanting to mandate it. are there implications for policy from your research? >> absolutely. in fact, the implications have been fairly consistent throughout the pandemic that the public has been ready to be pushed farther in general than our political leaders wanted to go. we see the same pattern here. i think we can pretty confidently say that, you know, there's a loud -- a disproportionately loud minority that's, you know, steadfastly opposed to any kind of government mandate. sort of like what you showed earlier with seatbelt laws back in the '70s. but we have between 60% and 65% of the public, you know, saying that they would be okay with that at different levels, at the local level, at the state level or at the federal level. and, as you said, i think a lot of businesses and lower level governments would love this guidance to come from the
federal government. >> yeah, matthew baum, brandy zadrozny, thank you for joining us. >> thank you. if you are like me you probably have heard a lot about breakthrough cases, people who are vaccinated but still contracted the coronavirus. it is a conversation i'm having a lot with my own friends and family. i'm not the expert on it. i am just a humble reporter. i talk to people and try to learn as best i can. dr. ashish jha is. i invited him to come talk about it. don't go anywhere. the doctor sets the record straight right after this. ♪ trust us, us kids are ready to take things into our own hands. don't think so? hold my pouch. ♪ rock the boat don't rock the boat, baby ♪ ♪ rock the boat don't tip the boat over ♪ here we go. ♪ rock the boat don't rock the boat, baby ♪ ♪ rock the boat ♪ see disney's jungle cruise. it's time to rock the boat, america.
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once again on the covid merry round, we are whipping around for the fourth or fifth time to enter a phase of the pandemic that feels ominous and scary. the good news is we're lucky enough to have at our disposal free of charge laf-saving vaccines. i want to show this chart which says more than anyone can say about this. it shows how the uk's vaccine rollout dramatically reduced deaths from covid. it is a picture worth way more than 1,000 words. okay. the uk's second covid wave, the pre-vaccine one on the left side. on the left, left part of that, those are cases and on the right the deaths. you see that sort of neat correlation, right, between cases on the left, deaths on the right. okay. now look to the chart of the third wave. that's post-vaccine. that's in blueish gray.
the death toll, the cases grow and grow and grow and the deaths barely budge. the only disparity in deaths are the vaccines. in the uk nearly 70% of people are fully vaccinated. now, compare that to here in the u.s. where only about half of the full population is fully vaccinated. millions of children are still ineligible to receive the vaccine, so as you prepare to go back to school parents are waking up to stories like this from "the new york times." 31 children test positive for coronavirus at summer camp. all 31 children who tested positive are under the age of 12, making them too young to receive vaccines in the u.s. now, fortunately, none of the kids got seriously ill. but as we battle the highly contagious delta variant, lots of parents are asking the question, how worried should you be about your kids who cannot get vaccinated if there's high levels of community transmission and also how worried should you be about breakthrough cases if you are vaccinated. dr. ashish jha is the dean of
public health at brown university. let's start with folks listening who are vaccinated and wondering, what should they make of the fact we have this spike in cases, a more transmissible variant but they are vaccinated, what is their risk? how worried should they be? how should their behavior maybe change or not change? >> great, thanks for having me back. those are great questions. here is how i would think about it, here is how i think about it for me. first of all, i don't worry about getting super sick and dying anymore from this virus. that is a huge relief. second is that there is a chance that i might have a breakthrough infection, because there's so much virus circulating in certain communities, particularly the communities with large surges, that we are going to see a lot of breakthrough infections. and breakthrough infections are pretty miserable. some of them are very mild, by the way, but i had colleagues who had breakthrough infections and they can be miserable. a couple of days high fevers, cough, don't feel great, but, again, you don't end up in the
hospital and that's the saving grace. the last big question people worried about is what about long covid from breakthrough infections. so far the data says, and we have to be cautious and not over interpret, that you don't necessarily -- or your risk of getting long covid is much lower if you had a breakthrough infection after being vaccinated. again, it is not a slam dunk, we're not 100% sure. >> yeah. >> at this point i would say if you are vaccinated, i would not worry excessively. >> yeah. so here is one way i have been thinking about it and i want to bounce it off you because, again, i'm not an expert. but i spent 16, 17 months of my life on this show trying to beat out of people this idiotic, dangerous, toxic and insidious talking point it is just like the flu. no, it is not like the flu. the flu, you know, we lost 600,000 people to it. yet where i end upcoming around back to is if you are vaccinated it is kind of like the flu. it might even be less dangerous than the flu, right? at the end, after vaccination, this talking point that was
false like the way you think about risk, the way you think about the illness, it is in the ballpark of the flu? >> yeah, it is hilarious in some ways. i don't mean to make light of this because it is a very serious condition, but in some ways what we have done is turned the 2021 version of covid if you are vaccinated into the 2020 version that all of the misinformationists were claiming. >> yes. >> so i find myself -- >> exactly. >> -- saying things that i was spending all of this time combatting last year. >> yes. so that's well said. let's talk about kids. you know, my read of the data in the aggregate as someone who has had three children under 12 who can't be vaccinated and, you know, i want them to be safe and not get sick, but my read on the data from the beginning is kids are relatively low risk. they have always been relatively low risk. you definitely don't want your kids to get sick if you can avoid it, but this is not a disease that has wildly elevated levels of hospitalization or
mortality for children, even compared to things like, say, rsv which is a fairly common respiratory infection for kids. in fact, my youngest, adam, was terrifyingly in the hospital for. what is your top line? >> yeah, my top line is relatively low risk. i have a 9 year old who has not been vaccinated obviously. i would really prefer he not get covid. >> yeah. >> but at the end of the day i don't spend a ton of time worrying about it, because if he were to get it, and we will do everything we can to protect him, but if he were to get it he probably would do just fine. some kids have gotten really sick of this virus and we should protect them, but we shouldn't spend a ton of time worried about how to protect relatively young children who do pretty well from this virus. >> so the final question here is on masking. i think my own personal feeling has changed a little bit, just the base rate of community transmission. so, you know, i was kind of enjoying the supermarket shopping without masking. i don't really like wearing a
mask, it fogs up my glasses and annoys me. i think i am kind of back to masking in big indoor public spaces because it seems that the level of community transmission means why not take the extra step. where are you at? >> yeah, i'm very similar. i will tell you two different things. i'm in massachusetts where i live, and i'll pop into a dunkin' donuts and pick up a cup of coffee for two minutes and okay without a mask. if i am going to spend 45 minutes grocery shopping i will probably put it on. last week i was in l.a. and i was marked up every time i went indoors because infection rates were higher. a little bit depends on context. i just don't want a breakthrough infection. i think it is reasonable to make different decisions based on where you are. >> yeah, i think that's really good advice. yeah, like, you know, if you don't mind wearing a mask and there's a lot of community transmissions it is not the worst thing. dr. ashish jha, that was illuminating and clarifying. it is great to talk to you on this stuff.
thank you. >> thanks, chris. ahead, the man who ran the finances for donald trump's inauguration is out on bail. the bail is wild, but if that headline alone doesn't absolutely shock you there's a great reason why. michelle goldberg is here to tell you all about it next. ou at with plant based cleansers. and moisturizers for healthy and hydrated men, skin, relax your body and mind, shower with new dove men. relax your body and mind, up here, success depends on the choices you make. shower with new dove men. but i know i've got this. and when it comes to controlling his type 2 diabetes, my dad's got this, too. with the right choices, you have it in you to control your a1c and once-weekly trulicity may help. most people taking trulicity reached an a1c under 7%. and it starts lowering blood sugar from the first dose, by helping your body release the insulin it's already making. trulicity is for type 2 diabetes. it isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. it's not approved for use in children.
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s earlier today a federal judge agreed to release tom barrack, a long-time adviser to donald trump, the chair of his inaugural committee, on a $250 million bond, which is tied for the third highest bond of all time. earlier this week you may recall barrack was charged with acting as an unregistered foreign agent for the united arab emirates. they're under the same foreign agent statute used to charge russian agent maria butina and other alleged spice. this guy was advising donald
trump and running his inaugural committee which is still under investigation for contributions from foreign countries including the united arab emirates. he will have to wear an ankle bracelet and he is scheduled to be arraigned in federal court in brooklyn on monday. if are you keeping track, and we sure are, he is the 11th trump associate to be charged with a federal crime since trump declared his candidacy in 2015. that's not even including things like the trump organization or his cfo, just indicted on tax fraud charges. it is really something else, just in a complete vacuum think about the idea of a foreign agent having close access to the president for years, jockeying him on the agenda items of the foreign nation, not the american interest. as michelle goldberg writes in "the new york times", quote, once upon a time, it would have been a huge news if the former chairman of the former president's inaugural committee was indicted on charges of acting as an agent of a foreign power. donald trump's presidency, however, has left us with
scandal inflation. michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for "the new york times", joins me now. i love the term scandal inflation. what do you mean by it? >> i just mean our sense of what constitutes a major scandal has been so, you know, inflated, right. there's so much scandal we're so inured to it. it is impossible to sort of whip up the same amount of shock and outrage when yet another member of the president's inner circle is indicted on serious national security crimes. >> yeah, and there's a few things going on here. one is that your point about, here, again, is the list. you know, manafort, rick gates, bannon, flynn, cohen, stone, papadopolous, nader, allen weisselberg, tom barrack. you know, there's, of course, the kind of like dog bites man versus man bites dog. like trump associated arrested
and indicted is almost not news because it is the anticipated state of things. >> it is the norm. >> it is the norm, it is the default. it is like, oh, yeah, another guy. oh, sure, that makes sense. one of the presidents's associates -- and i didn't even have -- i had him on my radar at one point, but then it is like, oh, that guy. oh, he got nicked, too. huh. that was my reaction. the other part that really is wild, and you write about this event, is the amount of people that were acting as foreign agents around the president. i mean this was the ultimate irony of the american first presidency with these corrupt, tiny gulf state monarchs essentially running trump associates as assets to get what they want rather than what the u.s. people elected is astounding. >> right. and i think that we've lost to some extent the role of these gulf state monarchs because we've been, i think, rightly focused of -- people for four
years were focused on russia. russia did intervene on trump's behalf after seeking the agreement of the campaign and it was a huge scandal and a huge national security failure. but let's remember that uae sent out feelers to trump towers saying they were ready to intervene on trump's behalf with a clan destin media campaign. once again donald trump jr. was like, yes, sounds good. it is one of the stories i think people forget in the avalanche of, you know, corruption and misbehavior by this administration. but you can also really see the results that emirate -- that uae got from this administration, right? you could not have imagined a more loyal, more indulgent ally than donald trump. i don't think that's all because of tom barrack, right. donald trump has his own investments in the emirates. jared kushner has his own motives for courting gulf princes. but, nevertheless, the uae sort
of seemed to know what they were doing when they bet on this president. >> and there's a hugely consequential issue at stake in all of this, which is one of the biggest things that the saudis and the emiratees wanted was to kill the iran deal because they hated the iran deal and they wanted a unified front maybe for military escalation against iran. think got the iran deal. there's a bunch of reasons it was killed. there's a question whether we can put it together or whether iran will move towards nuclear development which could lead to an enormously, almost impossible to get your head around crisis. it wasn't penny ante stuff that was the subject of the truck and barter here. >> and the consequences for american national security are profound. you know, i think one of the points that i made in my column is that donald trump issued ten vetoes while he was president. five of those vetoes were on
matters of interest to sudi and uae, including a veto of congress's attempt to end u.s. involvement in the hideous, brutal, bloody civil war in yemen, which uae and saudi were fighting for years and years. so there are huge geopolitical issues at stake in these relationships. >> yeah, that's a great point. half of the vetoes were vetoes that the saudis and the emiratees were desperate to secure. michelle goldberg, it is always great to talk to you. thanks so much. >> thank you. last night we told you that tennessee officials voted to remove the bust of a kkk leader from the state's capital. first thing this morning the movers showed up. they rolled the tribute to a true american villain out of the seat of government. hallelujah. meanwhile a few states to the north in ohio there was a changing of the guard thanks to decades of angt viss, the baseball team in cleveland has a
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welcome back. as the border battle rages on an american company is offering to build the wall for a fraction of the cost. >> we put a proposal on the department of homeland security's desk to build 700 miles in roughly five years. >> and we really believe with our patent-pending system we can bring sexy back to construction. >> the president will, if he allows our team and fisher industries to play, i guarantee no different than tom brady. once we get in we never come out. >> hopefully the president will see this as well. >> i don't know if you heard about the contractor that said he can build the whole wall for a lot cheaper than anybody else and get it done by 2020. are you aware of that? >> yes, we're dealing with him actually. it is fisher. comes from north dakota. >> just incredible stuff. i mean for a while you could not watch fox news without seeing some guy named tommy fisher just lobbying for a contract to build
donald trump's border wall. in fact, bloomberg reports in the first few years after the 2016 election fisher spent more than $100,000 on lobbying in washington. here is the thing, it worked kind of. after being rejected by the department of homeland securities and the army corps of engineers, a nonprofit called we build the wall -- great name -- paid fisher $6.9 billion to build a half mile length of border wall in new mexico, seen here. fisher then bought land on the texas border with the idea that we build the wall nonprofit would pay him to build a wall there, too. but the group flaked out on paying him and they ran into some legal trouble. you might have heard about it when his founders of we build the wall, including former trump adviser steve bannon, were arrested and charged with defrauding the organization's donors. whoa, a shocker. but fisher kept building, spending what he says is $30 million of company money to build a three-mile stretch of the wall right next to the rio
grande. you can see how close it is to the river at some points there. it was all built with private money, and fisher was still looking for big federal contract. that's what he was pitching in his media blitz and it finally paid off in trump's last year in office when according to bloomberg again fisher sand and gravel was awarded $2.5 billion, with a "b," dollars to build 135 miles' worth of federal wall sections near yuma and nogales in arizona and in texas. at the time we pointed out the program one of the contracts raised questions because as "the washington post" reported trump repeatedly pushed for fisher to get a wall-building contract, urging officials with the army corps of engineers to pick the firm only to be told that fisher's bid did not meet standards. trump then kept pushing until the company was added to a pool of competitors, and lo and behold finally awarded the massive multi-billion dollar
contracts. now, unfortunately for tommy fisher, one of the first things joe biden did as president was halt all construction of walls at the borden, basically cancelling out that mega wall contract. so now tommy fisher is looking for someone to purchase, to buy his three-mile $30 million stretch of texas border wall where a hurricane caused significant erosion of the banks, up to and under the concrete foundation. so not in 100% shape, just fyi. it is a little dinged up, but if you got a cool $30 million, looking for a three-mile stretch of wall that may some day collapse into a river. i know a guy. i know a guy x moisturizer blen. removes germs in seconds, moisturizes for hours. soft, smooth. new dove handwash.
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1914 they needed a new name, though i think naps is an amazing name. with input from local sports writers they became known as the cleveland indians. for years that name struck. the team's logo became a gro teske character, bright red and grinning from ear to ear that was only retired three years ago, if you can imagine. it was only last year after years of criticism and protest, particularly from american indian groups they decided to change their name. today in a video narrated by the oscar winner tom hanks, the team announced their new name. >> you see, there's always been cleveland. that's the best part of our name. and now it is time to unite as one family, one community, to build the next era for this team and this city, to keep watch and guard what makes this game the
greatest, to come together and welcome all who want to join us. we are loyal, proud and resilient. we protect what we've earned and always defend it. together we stand with all who understand what it means to be born and built from the land, because this is the city we love and a game we believe in. together we are all cleveland guardians. the baseball team officially will begin playing as the cleveland guardians next season. i'm joined by the vice president of the national congress of indians. and the author of "loving sports when they don't love you back, dilemmas of the modern fan." erin, let me start with you and talk about how long it has been in the making and what tipped it over to now? >> first of all, i'm excited to be here. you are my new source, you along with rachel maddow, i'm grateful
to be here. >> thanks. >> it has been an epic challenge. i worked on this when i was an undergrad in the 1980s, so that's over 40 years. >> wow. >> even longer through the national congress of the american indians. resolutions were passed almost 50 years ago calling for the change in the name and the use of derogatory mascots towards american indians. so in earnest, more closely we've been working directly with the cleveland team to be able to find an appropriate way to change the name and to transition because we know sports fans are very loyal and, like tom hanks just said, the cleveland part of it has been the most important part. so we've been working on it for quite a while, more than a generation. >> you know, it is striking to me that sports has been -- i think sports has been more resistance to some of the cultural changes in terms of inclusiveness and anti-bigotry than other parts of american life have been. but we are seeing it now really
change. i mean with the washington football team, held out forever with this really awful name. that's gone. cleveland has changed its name. what is going on among the leagues or the owners that they've reached that tipping point in terms of whatever their calculation is, whether it is business or something else? >> yeah, first of awfully want to commend the work other activn this space. i don't think we should give owners too much credit. i point to the washington football team and say dan snyder didn't have a sudden come-to-jesus moment. it was sponsor pressure that forced them to do that. we have gotten to a point, especially with black lives matter, especially with the conversations we have had the last year of racial equity, about the public, about fans really understanding not only are the names derogatory but they're really hurtful. one thing i do want to point out when it comes to these racist names and mascots is there are tons of studies that point to the negative psychological effect that seeing these
caricatures have on native american youth, but at the same time we cite two studies in my book, in our book that point to these names and mascots also having a positive effect on the self-esteem of white fans. that's part of the resistance we have seen for so long here. >> aaron, i want to play you what congressman jim jordan from ohio had to say today. it is not surprising there's a certain kind of reactionary backlash to this, including predictably from the ex-president which i'll spare you. but here is jim jordan raising a hue and cry. >> sports was the one area where you could go that you didn't get politics. sports have become political and frankly the american people don't like it. i guess it could be worse, it could be the cleveland baseball team. at least they got a name. >> yeah. >> it is ridiculous. i'm tired of the left that control big tech, big media, big corporations, we know they control hollywood, the white house, they control bureaucracy
and now they're trying to control things sports. >> what do you say to that, aaron? >> well, i would say that this is not a left/right issue. american indians across the country are not monolithic. >> right. >> we have all kind of political persuasions and backgrounds and we're unified in the desire for this change. the american psychological association in 2005 pointed out the psychologically damaging impact on american indians and the misleading an uneducational impact on non-american indian students. so it is not a political movement. this is a historical movement. this is a milestone in american history where we are going to be able to look back and say, why did it take us this long. >> there are american indian trump voters, i guarantee you, and conservatives out there, such as in robison county, north carolina, which trump won that comes to mind off the top of my head. i was tweeting about this today, i give this advice to parents of
children who are, you know, trying to figure out, they're expecting a baby and trying to figure out the name. i always say like, you're going to love the name because you love the kid and there's not a parent alive who wakes up one morning with their, you know, 8-year-old max sleeping in the bed and thinks, why did we name him max? like it doesn't matter. you love the kid, you're going to love the name. you love the team. this will be two weeks and it will be the guardians. >> these fans are going to continue to root for cleveland. as that video said, this is about city identity and the identity that you have as fans. i'm sorry if i have to say that jim jordan might be out of touch with some people, but a lot of fans like the name washington football team. a lot of fans think that should be their permanent name. >> yes. >> this is pretty much a nonissue when it comes to actually maintaining the fandom. by the way, cleveland is going to make a ton of money around the rebranding and selling new merchandise. so nobody is losing here. >> yeah, we should also note they're named after the big, imposing statues which are called the guardians which are on the bridge there in cleveland
and, you know, sort of evoke some of the pride of the city. this is not just a random name. it seems to me that there are still a bunch of these team mascots at the collegiate/high school level, where in some ways they might even be more insidious , aaron. how much progress has been made on that front? >> we are seeing a movement right now, and it is picking up speed. there's about 18, almost 1,900 districts, school districts that still have these indian mascots. of them, about 40% have the indians mascot. lets of them have the "r" word still. if you know the origin of that, the "r" word actually came from a bounty on american indian scalps. when people don't understand the origin of this, i ask why are the american indians the only
ones subjected to this practice. substitute another race for a mascot and let me know if that's appropriate. i will not give an example because it would be appropriate. for those who don't understand, ask the question why are we the only racial ethnic population worthy of this honor. >> thank you for making time tonight. enjoyed that. >> thank you. that is "all in" for this week. "the rachel maddow show" starts now. >> thank you. much appreciated. u thank you for joining us this hour. "the new york times" called it the largest criminal action against a wall street figure ever. "the washington post" called it the culmination of, quote, the most spectacular securities fraud investigation in history. this was 1989. i remember when this happened. i was in high school at the time. federal prosecutors in new york, in manhattan, indicted one of the richest and