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tv   Deadline White House  MSNBC  August 5, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT

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it's 4:00 in the east. we await an event the white house says will be solemn and all about the officers who protected the u.s. capitol on january 6th. a rose garden ceremony expected as president biden signs into law legislation awarding four congressional gold medals to the united states capitol police. for a few hours, as the country and world watched in horror that day at the sight of the u.s. capitol overrun by supporters of the ex president, it seemed possible we might awaken from a slumber that saw two political parties slide into an alternate reality. one in which cops are no hero. a violent mob is a tourist visit. targeted by the incumbent
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president. for a few hours our horror at the violence we were witnessing mixed with gratitude for the men and women protecting our democracy. we should warn you, this video is violent and disturbing. we're showing it to you as a reminder of what they endured. >> reporter: for almost two hours officers faced off with rioters for people who say they support the police, but assault them anyway. we're going to show what happened here because it demonstrates yet again how failures by capitol police leaders' ability to prepare put these officers at risk. capitol police had been ordered to withhold some of their stronger weapons. as soon as robert glover arrives, he calls for his munitions team to help.
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when the building is preached, glover knows he needs to retreat and seeks advice from capitol officials. >> any shared terror or horror or sense that we crossed a red line and appreciated those men and women evaporated almost immediately when 147 republicans, 139 in the house and 8 in the senate, voted to overturn the will of the american people just as the insurrectionists demanded a couple hours after the capitol was secured. the rot in the gop has inspired 21 house republicans to oppose the legislation that resulted in
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today's presidential signing ceremony. four law enforcement officers have died by suicide since january 6th. here's officer michael fanone on "time" magazine. it's written, quote, many of his colleagues didn't see why he couldn't get over it. a gop congressman testified that what happened was more like a tourist visit than insurrection. no one could see this footage, fanone thought and deny what happened. history recorded it. this is the story of what happened after january 6th. it's a story about what we agree to remember and what we choose to forget about how history is not lived but manufactured after the fact. we are supposed to come together and say never forget, to agree on the heros and villains, on who was at fault.
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what happens if we can't agree? what if we're too busy arguing to face what really happened? that rose garden ceremony today is designed to honor those law enforcement officials that some in the republican party are trying to forget. that's where we start today. jason johnson is back, journalism and politics professor. also robert gibbs, former white house press secretary for president obama and jonathan lamir is here. all three msnbc contributors. jonathan, i was told this would be solemn. this president has avoided most of the politics, other than being at the front of describing it as an insurrection. he stayed out of a lot of the fray around the second impeachment of the ex president and around the formation of the
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select committee. what do you understand about the importance of today's event to him? >> it's extraordinarily important, nicolle. you're right, he was on that day, january 6th, delivered powerful remarks declaring it an insurrection and condemning the role that then president trump played in inciting it. he stayed out of the impeachment. he expressed his dismay that the bipartisan january 6th commission modelled after the september 11th commission fell apart. he and his team have been clear eyed about how significant january 6th was and how damaging it was to the soul of this nation. he's described conversations he had with foreign leaders who wondered how that could happen there and expressed relief that trump was no longer in office. he deemed it one of the darkest days in our nation's history. it's a solemn tribute from this president to the people who saved lives, countless lives that day on january 6th and
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suffered greatly for it. his aides pointed out, this is someone, joe biden, comes from a working middle class background. he always identified with people like police officers, those in law enforcement, those in public service, knowing they're the salt of the earth. he wants to pay them tribute for their heroism on a day that was tragic but could have been far worse. let's not lose sight of that. every video we see underscores that as bad as that day was we were a few wrong turns and acts of heroism from d.c. officers. >> the politics are undeniable in the context, jason johnson, of the ongoing trauma experienced from the first responders that day. four officers who responded to
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the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol by donald trump supporters have died by suicide. what molly ball describes in officer fanone's cover story on "time" magazine, it's very clear there's the trauma of the event. he describes being picked up by the mob and in his testimony last week said his last best bet was to appeal to their humidity. he started screaming he had kids before he blacked out for four minutes. this is not a willing participant in america's fractured and bruising politics. this is someone who is not a partisan, but here he is an even caps lags of everything that's broken. >> i got to say, nicolle -- i mean, look, i'm not a
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psychologist or therapist. i can't imagine the frustration that any of these officers are experiencing and have experienced over the last six or seven months. we can talk about the physical bruising, but the psychological bruising to go back to your job and defend people who not only denied the importance or significance of what you were doing, but are now trying to completely erase it. it's like going back to the job to work for your abuser essentially is what a lot of these officers have been forced to do for months. i can't imagine that level of pain. i can't imagine that level of frustration. there are heros we haven't even heard about yet. there's gene goodman who pushed one of the insurrectionists.
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there's tons of them. tons we haven't heard yet. the one thing i look forward to today is thank goodness we have a president like joe biden who has always been good in the moment of showing empathy towards people who suffered on behalf of the american dream. i don't think there's anybody in the republican party right now that is capable or has the integrity or courage to speak to what these men and women sacrificed in the capitol to keep this country going just six or seven months ago. >> to that point, this was a unanimous vote to award medals to the men and women who protected the capitol. the video documentaries make clear how harrowing this was, how close this came to being something worse. thank god it wasn't. thank god no law maker of either political party was hurt or killed. two dozen house republicans
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didn't think these medals today were a good idea. >> i think, nicolle, that's what's truly remarkable about this. it's hard sitting here all these months later watching those images, not feeling anxiety and tenseness, even though we know how that video ends. you know, to jason's point i can only imagine the trauma that is relived constantly, the mental anguish. we know the impact it's already having on the force with the recent suicides. it's remarkable too that those 24 votes came from a party that spent a lot of the last year in the election in 2020 telling everybody just how much they supported police officers. just how much they supported law
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enforcement. to turn their backs on the very people that protected the shrine of our democracy and the people representing americans to go and take part in that democracy is -- you know, a level of shame that is -- it's indescribable. i don't know how they get up every morning. i don't know how they go to work. i don't know how they look themselves in the mirror and think, not just those four, but hundreds that day that pushed back those terrorists and insurrectionists. all should be given a much greater form of recognition. >> i want to read you what officer fanone said to -- he made -- the points robert gibbs just made are spot on. they were made to republicans by officer fanone. jonathan, i want to read this from molly ball's reporting.
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in meetings with gop members of congress fanone asked how they could claim to back the blue while selling him out. they brought up black lives matter and how they had the cops' backs. he found himself explaining why attempting to overthrow a cvs was different than overthrowing the government. why the peaceful protest of anarchists in portland were different. god bless him for trying to make that case. michael fanone makes clear why they're different. >> that's right. in molly's piece fanone acknowledges he's a conservative. he votes republican most of the time and he has had a hard time dealing with these law makers who have turned their backs on
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him. the hypocrisy is nauseating. to proclaim they have the backs of the police and down play what they saw here. that mob carrying trump flags and american flags, tried to use those flags to injury police officers. tried to hit them with them. you've seen the video. kicking officers to being unconscious. fanone was electrocuted with his own taser and he feared he was going to be shot to death with his own gun. these were people who did not respect the rule of law. they tried to fight through the police to overthrow the government and to have republican law makers, fanone says, support them or down play what they did is something he can't stomach. that's what we've seen is the incredible attempt to white wash what occurred since january 6th. it's not just donald trump
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sending out emailed statements suggested they were patriots. these are republican law makers, people who are supposedly doing the people's business, again, refusing to take a clear eyed look at what happened, down playing it, trying to suggest it was just tourists or people just letting off some steam at the capitol when that's the furthest from it. we've seen deaths and there's a lot of people on capitol hill that fear that total will climb because of the mental anguish suffered by so many there that day. they're fearful of more suicides. >> i was on the air for five hours that day. it was clear watching it on live tv what these law enforcement officials were going through. they have been retraumatized as everyone is talking about by the
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description and the white washing of the events by republican law makers. it's difficult having to describe being nearly broken to the press. their willingness to tell their story is some part of needing to break through what feels impossible to conceive, that the men and women in the republican party whose lives were spared, whose bodies were not mutilated by flag poles, that maybe they'll hear something like this. this is how officer fanone's day went on january 6th. on the tv at the bar fanone's hand strained to push them away, the insurrectionists. the crush parted and the full scene came into view. there's a thin blue line between order and chaos. at that moment mike fanone was it. the footage showed fanone getting pulled out into the scrum. a man's voice, i got one. fanone began to scream, the
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high-pitched undignified screams of a man being tased in the back of the neck. the bar fell silent as the body cam footage played. for the first time since that day, fanone was sobbing uncontrollably, shoulders heaving as his buddy's put their arms around him. i don't even know where we are, jason, when someone goes through that and one of the two political parties denies the horror and denies the medal. >> the problem -- the sad thing honestly for me, nicolle, is i know exactly where we are. it doesn't shock me. it's very consistent of the republican party for the last ten years or so. of course they support police officers when you're beating up black folks. of course they support the blue
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when it's black lives matter. they don't like the police if the police stand for order in the face of white nationalism. they don't like the police if the police stand for order against an authoritarian government. that's what this boils down to. the republicans want power. they want a white nationalist state. they're not subtle about it. every voting legislation, that's what they've been about ever since donald trump got the nomination. they don't care who they have to sacrifice. whether that's people in central texas having to die over covid, or police officers in capitol, they don't care who dies. they don't care if it's kids in sandy hook as long as it's about accruing power to a white nationalist state. what i worry about honestly with these officers -- nicolle,
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hearing that and hearing this guy cry and how he has to sleep at night, all the officers, men and women who suffer through this, is the feeling that this could happen again. at the time there were reports that members of congress -- i saw staffers and other members of congress giving tours to people the day before the insurrection. we still haven't found out who did that. these guys are going to work every day saying i don't know when this is going to happen again. i don't know if somebody holding the door in the back of the senate building is to let somebody in with jimmy john's or sending somebody in to kill us. i'm not shocked by what the republican party is. i am concerned for the absolute lack of concern for humanity and the lack of integrity to continue this charade.
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>> it's a brutal assessment, robert gibbs, the republicans seem to be trying to prove jason johnson correct in his assessment. there's something hanging over the fact that nearly two dozen republicans couldn't bring themselves to sign on to what was in the senate a bipartisan agreement that these are heros, that there is no 'kwif indication that they were the good guys on that day. the investigation, the select committee has made clear it is going to get to the truth, that it is going to subpoena the kinds of republicans who may or may not have been involved in what jason is talking about. other democratic members of congress have made the same allegations. there will be a reckoning. the second part is will the trumpiest of american voters believe it. at some point it won't matter, if you get to the truth.
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if the truth is broadcast, it makes it hard for some of those people to continue in their jobs as members of congress. >> absolutely, nicolle. as we get closer and closer to the truth, is everybody going to admit what happened? i doubt it. it seems very unlikely. i definitely think more and more -- i think the hearings starting with the testimony of those officers began that process. articles like molly ball's continuing that process. hearing the story -- as jason pointed out, or jonathan, this is not -- this is a conservative police officer. the article mentions he voted for trump. again, that's neither here nor there, but it shows you that, you know, that this is somebody who got into law enforcement to protect those and not only did a
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group of terrorists storm the capitol to try to do them harm, but by all accounts continuing -- members of congress continue to turn their backs on those officers. that commission is going to swear in some of those very same members of congress. not as members who seek to know the truth, but as witnesses that day. people who talked to president trump that day they're going to have to swear an oath to tell the truth to other members of congress about the roles they played that day. that will be an important moment as well in shedding light on what happened. >> let me just -- i agree with everything you said. let me quibble with one thing. it's not that fanone's past as a republican is neither here nor there, if he says he voted for trump is neither here nor there, that's everything. that's the point. donald trump will have anyone in
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his tribe on his side tased four times and nearly murdered because he doesn't care about them. that's the point. he doesn't care about the guy that's going to get hauled before some criminal court, the chief of staff. it's the whole point. he doesn't care about anyone. this was central to his political triumph in '16. he backed the blue. it was all bs. that's the whole point. i'm so glad to have you three to start off the show. we're waiting for that rose garden ceremony in which president biden will award the medals to law enforcement officials. it was a unanimous vote to do so in the u.s. senate. close to two dozen house members
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were not on board. as soon as that starts we will go to it. quick break for us. we'll be right back. work and not to be the first to give everyone the joy of 5g, by giving every customer a new 5g phone. old customers. new customers new 5g phones when you trade in your old ones. upgrade your phone. upgrade your network. ok everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. whoo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, now introducing ensure complete! with 30 grams of protein. at usaa, we've been called too exclusive. because we were created for officers.
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a few moments president biden will recognize and reward the heroics and the bravery of the u.s. capitol police by awarding them the congressional gold medal. we'll bring that to you live when it starts. today's ceremony is the culmination of months of
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discussion and debate over how to honor first responders who protected them on january 6th. not a single member of congress was harmed in the attack. each one has their own harrowing story from that day. here's jerry connelly recalling his escape. >> we had only one escape route down in the basement to the tunnels. i was like one of the last to leave the house chamber because i felt -- i turned to my left and i saw the mob right there at the doors, breaking the windows, pounding on the doors, trying to get in to the house chamber. that's when i realized, gee, this is -- this is very close. >> joining us now is congressman jerry connelly, democrat from virginia. sir, what do you think sort of reliving or remembering those
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really detailed descriptions of that day? >> i think for all of us it's still traumatic. the menace that was so real and so near and the heroism of both the capitol hill police and other police forces, especially that of the district of columbia in saving lives. that crowd was not a bunch of tourists as some have said. that was a violent mob that brought weapons of violence and plastic handcuffs to basically hold members of congress hostage, if not worse. so, as we see that video, as we relive the events of that day, i think all of us who lived through it, except two dozen republicans of the house, want to make sure it's not forgotten
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and want to make sure it can never recur. >> you know, watching the videos again -- i did today preparing for the show today. i remember feeling very much like it was possible this would be the thing that everyone would have to agree had gone too far. if you watch kevin mccarthy, the opposite happened. he purged liz cheney from his leadership ranks because she refused to go along with the big lie which kevin mccarthy said was a lie and then tried to get the tooth paste back in the tube. mitch mcconnell, it seems like he wants to be seen as someone who respects the institution. he seemed to refer donald trump for criminal prosecution. he voted against the bipartisan 9/11 style commission. do you think there is anyone on the republican side, other than liz cheney and adam kinzinger, who has remorse about their
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roles in the big lie and in killing the bipartisan commission to investigate the insurrection? >> i do. there are decent men and women in the republican caucus who understand that it did go too far and that they were frankly part of the problem in either being silent or aye kwee yes sent in the big lie propounded by trump. whether they have the courage to speak up and say it as they watch what happened to liz cheney and what's happening to adam kinzinger is a different matter. the two rarest elements in the political periodic chart are gratitude and fortitude. there's not a lot of fortitude on the republican side of the aisle right now. >> i wonder what you make of this mission statement if you will. this is officer harry dunn asking the select committee to
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find the person who sent the hitman. >> us four officers, we would do january 6th all over again. we wouldn't stay home because we knew it was going to happen. we would show up. that's courageous. that's heroic. what i ask from you all is to get to the bottom of what happened and that includes -- i echo the sentiments of the other officers. i use an analogy to describe what i want as a hitman. if a hitman is hired and he kills somebody, the hitman goes to jail. not only does the hitman go to jail, but the person who hired them does. there was an attack carried out on january 6th and a hitman sent them. i want you to get to the bottom of that. >> sir, you described it as a criminal conspiracy to subvert the election on the part of the
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last administration. are you confident that congress will be able to get to the bottom of exactly what that looked like and who was involved? >> i am confident that the commission we put together, the bipartisan commission, will get to the bottom of it. i'm less confident that congress as an institution will hold trump to account. we've impeached trump twice. the second time was after the insurrection. it was directly tied to that violence and still the republicans in large numbers would not convict the president of an obvious incitement to riot that led to the death of nine people. your heart breaks when you hear officer dunn pleading with congress to do its job and the enabling of the republicans is a betrayal of their oath of
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office. >> since the last time you and i spoke, there have been more revelations. some of these surfacing in news accounts. including new details about what was going on at the justice department. it's a similar threat as to what we talk about with the insurrection. there were people inside doj pressuring the acting attorney general to declare georgia's result corrupt or inaccurate and kick it back to the legislature. i wonder if you feel like congress is getting all of the notes and testimony that it needs to do a full reckoning of what went on between november and january at the justice department? >> not yet, but i think the current attorney general and his team definitely want to cooperate with congress across the board, including especially this. that's why we have donahue's
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notes of the conversation he had with then president trump. i recall, nicolle, that i questioned the former attorney general, jeffrey rosen, about this very issue. did the president try to pressure you to overturn, subvert or call into question the legitimacy the election of 2020? he equivocated. this is may. he's out of office. he has nothing to lose but his own integrity. yet he still protected trump. that is what's so troubling about the behavior of so many people around trump and here in the congress, those people wanting to protect trump apparently at any cost, including the cost to human lives and potentially our own democratic former governor. >> the first word you used when i played that video of you
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describing what happened on january 6th was trauma. it's clear these law enforcement officials are still dealing with trauma. what is your message for them as they prepare for this rose garden ceremony and to receive the congressional gold medals? >> that the overwhelming majority of us in congress appreciate more than words can say the sacrifices they made. we've lost now five officers, four by suicide. we have over 140 who were injured and many of whom are still recovering from those injuries. some of which required surgery and were severe. their sacrifice won't be forgotten. what they did was heroic to depend american democracy. that's not high per bolly. they protected every member of
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the united states capitol, the congressmen and women and their staff. i think today's award of the gold medal is more than symbolic. it reflects that most members of congress absolutely revere those sacrifices and appreciate what was done on january 6th. not only for us, but for american democracy. >> it is a big heady deal to watch what's going to transpire this afternoon. congressman gerry connelly, thank you for spending time to talk to us. up next, from the white house briefing room today a pledge to get kids back in classrooms safely and a plea to parents to do their part by vaccinating all eligible kids. that's kids older than 12. we'll bring you that next. 5g network and now we want to be the first to give everyone the joy of 5g,
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the resources are there and the urgency is there. now is the time to get students back into the classroom. i'm worried decisions aren't putting student health and safety at the center. that's why schools may be disrupted. we know what to do. don't be the reason why students are disrupted because of the
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polarization. >> that was the u.s. secretary of education calling for masks to be worn by everyone in areas where covid is on the rise. the white house is making the push to get kids vaccinated. the white house calling it a week of action, mobilizing students, teachers, leaders and influencers with 200 some vaccination events hosted by some 90 organizations and schools. this also includes pop-up vaccination clinics at schools an incorporating covid shots into back to school sports physicals. joining our conversation is the associate and editor for "real clear politics." jonathan lamir is back as well. amy, schools did figure out how to get kids back into the classroom. it's a goal for all school-aged
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kids. they figured out with masks and social distancing to do it. now they have this extra tool, the vaccine. it seems crazy that the levels of vaccinations -- let me put them up so we're dealing in facts. the numbers of 12-15-year-olds fully vaccinated, 29%. the number of 18-24-year-olds fully vaccinated, 44%. >> i mean, i want to be really happy about the news we heard today, nicolle, which is that vaccinations are up. highest day i believe yesterday in a month. people are getting -- also record day of first shots in a long time. this is an improvement. i think people are getting the message that the delta variant is 60 to 70 times more contagious than the covid-19 virus we battled last year and
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until delta arrived. i hope that that will continue to escalate in the weeks to come. school has started in areas of the south. it's really late now to have teachers refusing to get vaccinated as well as students. it's really scary to hear reports from epidemiologists, from hospitals about what the delta variant is doing to young children, also different than covid-19. we have reports of them in the icu and on oxygen and in really -- in danger. i hope the administration is successful in whatever efforts they make, but it's really important substantively that children be safe, be in school as much as they can. politically this white house is -- this administration and the democratic party i think is going to get pummelled if we end up in a situation where people
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are back mostly online and republicans are blaming the biden administration for the state of mental decline of the nation's children. they will continue to make political war on that no matter what even though it looks like the delta variant is much more dangerous for children than with a we were dealing with last year. >> let me just -- i want to put a pin in the idea that republicans will blame the biden administration for kids not being in school. if kids aren't being in school it's because republican governors stood in the way of mask mandates. i know you're not saying it's right. you're saying it will happen. >> they'll do it anyway. >> let me put the facts up about kids. we follow some of the same accounts on social media. it paints a terrifying picture. i'm always armed with the facts about kids because i have one. let me put up the facts about
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kids and the delta variant. there are 18 children under 4 hospitalized in the whole country with the delta variant. right now between the ages of 5 and 17, there were 24 kids. when we're talking about our kids, we have to remove hyperbole. we have to take twitter out of it. we have to deal in the facts. since the pandemic started, 173 kids under 4 have died. 127 kids between the ages of 5 and 11 have died. i think the white house makes the point, jonathan, that this is still a pandemic of the unvaccinated who could be vaccinated. even as pediatric cases rise, they are primarily among children who are old enough to get the vaccine, 12 and up. >> right. the biden administration has taken much sharper rhetoric in the last week about the pandemic
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as we see cases go up. calling it a pandemic of the unvaccinated. the president pointing his fingers at those who have chosen not to get the shot. saying not only are you putting your loved ones in danger, but everyone else because you're allowing this virus to percolate. it's threatening schools and businesses to close. we heard him take on republican governors trying to get in the way of mask mandates, governor ron desantis of florida one of them. the white house has had media organizations to adjust their coverage. the deaths of children, it's terrifying. they are very, very -- they're the exceptions. the delta variant hits children harder than the previous one, but it's still rare.
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most kids are able to be okay. the children that are sick are largely in the communities of unvaccinated people. on schools, the biden administration is committed to getting them open. we've heard that they've not changed the rhetoric from day one. they expect schools to be open. they're asking parents and teachers and communities and mayors and governors to do things to safeguard it which includes masks and they expect teachers to be there. that is something that is becoming a real issue here. some teachers unions are balking at requiring their teachers to be vaccinated. new york city, the mayor, is urging people to do so. the political stakes are huge. fair or not, the republicans will try to blame the biden administration. i think the white house will be armed with facts to rebut that. >> a.b., you capture all the
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emotion behind this issue. it was one of the most emotional issues last year, children's mental health, being home. i want to come back to something that jonathan just mentioned. teachers unions. randy whinegarden has an updated message on this. things have changed with delta raging. because of that, we're considering all alternatives including looking at vaccine mandates. talk about the politics of this, the politics for teachers unions not mandating vaccines for all teachers, particularly those who teach in classrooms under 12, are abysmal. what do you think about where they are right now on vaccine mandates for teachers? >> i just think that republicans who basically campaigned all year on the laziness of teachers
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refusing to come back into the classroom and wanting to teach virtually forever is going to be a theme we hear again. as you pointed out, it doesn't matter to republicans that their voters are largely the unvaccinated and that they're encouraging vaccine misinformation and conspiracy theories and they're opposed to masks. they'll take advantage of any kind of online school and lockdowns of the classroom politically if they can. the teachers unions, i don't find the reasoning behind refusing to take the vaccine. i think if they are considering the mandate, i think that it's the best course, the most substantively for the biden administration. >> let me just say this -- i have a lot of teachers in my life. my mom and in my family. the vast majority of teachers
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are vaccinated. as a profession they're the most vaccinated. the vast majority of teachers want to be in the classroom. they wanted that all last year. some defied recommendations and went in to teach their kids. just to be super clear we're talking about the broken conspiracy-based theories on the right. ories on the right. have to exist. i'm going to ask both of you to stick around through a quick break because up next i want to talk about another breach of norms that we're just learning about thankse' to some great ne reporting about the last administration. it involves a bottle of whiskey and mike pompeo and a long list of mike pompeo's potential ethics problems during his time running the country's state department. that reporting is next.
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we're back with a.b. stoddard and jonathan lemire. you know, jonathan lemire, i think that we have all seen enough of the last administration to know that when it comes to a lapse of ethics or an obliteration of norms there are only patterns. there are never anomalies. what questions do you have about this missing gift? >> oh, i bet mike pompeo doesn't remember where it is. i think that we can have our fun with this particular gift, and i think there's perhaps some likely suspects -- suspect as to what happened to it. but you're right, it is a small matter that points to a larger issue, is that this was an administration, not just in the white house but top cabinet officials, who were, of course, you know, used their positions at times, as certainly true of the reporting about agriculture secretary purdue, to make deals for themselves, to profit themselves or their backers, their constituent goes, that there was a degree of sort of a hands out trying to enrich themselves the best they can, and no better example than the
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president just with some of the reporting we know about how he would have the secret service stay at his golf courses and charge exorbitant rates. you know, he profited greatly any time he went to bedminster or mar-a-lago, you know, he would make a lot of money off of that. you know, that's something that, you know, watchdog groups raised at the time, and yet there's nothing that changed about it. you know, this is an administration, sadly, where this, the shattering of the norm, even something on something somewhat trivial, though expensive, a bottle of whiskey, is what this administration was one of the hallmarks. >> a.b., mike pompeo, there's a lot of alleged inappropriate conduct. there were government employees, tax-payer funded employees doing things. i believe he and his wife hosted a lot of parties. there were a lot of questions, a big swirl of grift conduct around the ex-secretary of state
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by the end. >> absolutely which is why it was amusing to hear him tell fox news the state department is so incompetent, he doesn't know whether they lost the bottle. whether he is connected to the pricey bottle doesn't matter. it doesn't take away from the fact he leaned into state department staff in covid to serve his exorbitant networking general rossi using taxpayer dollars and that he was obviously given permission from the top. but one of the worst offenders of the administration, and if the republican party hasn't given up on this i hope the people running against him in 2024 will campaign against his grift. >> a.b. stoddard, jonathan lemire, it is wonderful to see both of you. thank you for spending some time with us today. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a very short break. don't go anywhere. we are just getting started. it verizon has been named america's most reliable network by rootmetrics.
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we will have a problem with violent extremists for, i believe, at least the next generation based on where we are today, but the biggest problem that we have in this particular moment is that it is the traditional violent extremists and a mass political movement that is talking about how violence might be justified in certain circumstances. there is research that directly shows when people with a platform say certain things, hate crimes go up. that means people get hurt, physically in the real world when somebody says something virtually. >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in the east. we are still waiting for the white house event in the rose garden honoring the officers who defended the u.s. capitol on january 6th. we will bring it to you when it starts. for now, we look to the violent extremism that those officers who will be honored today faced on january 6th. right there you heard from former dhs official and previous
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regular guest on this show, elizabeth newman. she testified today at the senate homeland security hearing, articulating there in the clip you heard about the current threat environment and how rhetoric from those in positions of influence is having a direct impact on the threat level. keep that in mind as the former president and his allies continue day after day after day to stoke anger and divisions and conspiracies about the big lie. that exact precise danger is what a federal judge called out this week when he sanctioned lawyers who propagated the ex-president's unfounded claims. from reporting on that story in "the washington post", quote, a federal judge in colorado has disciplined two lawyers who filed a lawsuit challenging the 2020 election late last year, finding that the case was frivolous, not warranted by existing law and filed, quote, in bad faith. in a scathing 68-page opinion, the magistrate judge found that the lawyers made little effort
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to corroborate information included in the suit which argued there had been a vast national conspiracy to steal the election from president donald trump. in short, this was no slip and fall at the local grocery store, wrote the judge, albeit disorganized and fan taste cal. the complaints allegations are extraordinarily serious and if accepted as true by large numbers of people are the stuff of which violent insurrections are made. meanwhile, former republican max boot writes the rest of trump's party has made excuses for the deadly insurrection and are down playing the fury and lies that lead to it. quote, this is excuse-making for extremism and sophistry of high order. it is possible to see the events of january 6th as merely a political protest that got out of control only if you willfully ignore everything that happened in the months beforehand. boot continues, quote, the effort to minimize and normalize what happened on january 6th in both its hard and soft variants is laying the ground work for a
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potentially more successful coup attempt the next time around. if republicans gain control of the house and senate in 2022, an outcome made more likely by their gerrymandering and voter suppression efforts, they will be in a strong position to return trump to the white house even if he loses the 2024 election. rest assured even if the worst happens, there will be plenty of intellectuals happy to rationalize the end of our democracy. that is where we start this hour. some of our most favorite reporters and friends. betsy woodruff swan is back. also john heilemann, executive producer of show time's "the circus" and host of "heel and high water" from the recount. clint watts is back, now a fellow at the policy and research institute. lucky for us, all three are contributors. betsy, let me start with you. i know you have fantastic
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reporting i want to get to, but elizabeth newman is a lifelong republican who came to her criticism of donald trump in a very painful way. she talked about it on this show often. it really came down to her life's work as a person working around the policy of extremism. to hear her articulate that the threat is exacerbated, violence against all of us is exacerbated by the seemingly sanctioned conduct of one of the two political parties is harrowing. >> that's right. and she really had a front row seat to this in the final months of the trump administration. she gave me an on-the-record interview shortly after leaving the department of homeland security where she detailed the unsuccessful efforts, largely unsuccessful efforts she engaged in to try to get the trump white house to take this threat seriously. the way she laid it out was that trump and the folks around him didn't want to talk about it, didn't want to acknowledge that domestic terrorism was a real threat, didn't want to acknowledge that domestic extremism was growing and
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metastasizing on the president's watch, and that calculation appeared to be largely for just pure, raw, ugly political reasons. of course, things were even worse than they sounded in those months before the president's election because not only did senior trump administration officials just downplay and ignore the threat, but, of course, on january 6th the president himself appeared to be on the cusp of potentially stealing the -- stealing the presidency, injuring senior u.s. government officials because of the way that that threat became very much real at the united states capitol. >> you know, john heilemann, one of the recurring things in betsy's great reporting we will get to reveals this. is the way that the federal government was not structured to deal with a malign force at the top of the executive branch. i mean all of the reporting of the trump era is really a story of, you know, a sitting fbi director who refused to see to it to let mike flynn go. a sitting white house counsel
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who is, you know, sneaking off to testify to robert mueller for dozens of hours. a sitting defense secretary trying to keep troop morale up as the president made dangerous decisions. john bolton documenting every, you know, whiff and sniffle of impropriety and documenting it all. i mean the story of the trump presidency is also the story of a government that doesn't work if someone like trump runs it again. >> right. i think that, you know, nicolle -- hi, good to see you. >> hi. >> i think one of the things that we learned in the course of our four years is how many of the constraints -- you know, we talked about guardrails, right? from the very beginning there was a notion there are these guardrails that would be able to kind of rein trump in no matter how incompetent, malignant or ignorant he was. this was a couple hundred-year-old democracy that evolved into a sturdy system and we said, you know, the guardrails are there. the court is a guardrail, the
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press is a guardrail, and those turned out to be true and in some ways trump was constrained by the guardrails. in terms of the internal guardrails, the ones inside the executive branch, the ones inside the three branches of government, it turns out a lot of them are based on norms, not on laws, not on rules or anything hard and fast, but on the good faith of all of the players and, most importantly, the good faith of the president. they're not really designed to constrain a bad-faith actor, especially a bad-faith president. >> john, thank you for wrapping that up. we see the president approaching the podium for this event to honor law enforcement officials who protected the u.s. capitol on january 6th. let's listen to the vice president. >> good afternoon, everyone. it is an honor to be with you. speaker pelosi, chairwoman amy klobuchar, ranking member roy blunt, and all of the members of congress including the mayor of washington, d.c. thank you for being here with us this afternoon. like so many gathered here, i
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was at the united states capitol the morning of wednesday, january 6th. i was in a classified meeting with senator blunt on national security with fellow members of the senate intelligence committee. not long after i left the chaos began. like americans everywhere my husband, doug, and i watched with absolute shock as our capitol was under siege and the people within it afraid for their lives. what we know now is in the midst of that violent attack there were countless acts of courage, and we are here today in the rose garden at the white house to recognize that courage. the officers of the united states capitol police and the
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d.c. metropolitan police risked their own lives to save the lives of others, both on january 6th and on april 2nd. they sacrificed so much to defend our nation. and in securing our capitol, they secured our democracy. these officers are heroes. and these officers are patriots. and they deserve today and every day this honor. our nation is grateful for your service. now, there are some officers who, of course, continue to suffer from the injuries, seen
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and unseen, and i want to make it clear that you know that you are not alone and that we all stand with you. of course, there are other officers who tragically lost their lives. there's nothing that we can do to bring these officers back or to take away the pain their families feel now, but it is my prayer that their sacrifice will serve as a constant reminder of the work we must all do together, of the vigilance we must have in order to protect our democracy. so i returned to the senate around 8:00 p.m. the night of january 6th, and we gathered in the senate chamber, in the same chamber where the new deal was
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struck and the great society was forged, in the same chamber where the interstate highway system was started and voting rights were won. and in that chamber just before 1:00 a.m. as officers stood guard, the final vote was tallied. democrats, independents and republicans came together and upheld the vote and the voice of the american people. as those officers continued even at that late hour to secure our capitol, they secured our democracy. so let us never forget that and let us always remember their courage. and now it is my great honor to introduce a true champion for
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all those who serve in uniform, president joe biden. >> good afternoon. thank you, vice president harris. folks, not even during the civil war did insurrectionists breach the capitol of the united states of america, the citadel of our democracy. not even then. but on january the 6th, 2021, they did. they did. a mob of extremists and terrorists launched a violent and deadly assault on the people's house, on the sacred ritual to certify a free and fair election. it wasn't dissent.
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it wasn't debate. it wasn't democracy. it was insurrection. it was riot and mayhem. it was radical and chaotic, and it was unconstitutional and maybe, most important, it was fundamentally unamerican. an existential threat and a test of whether our democracy could survive, whether it could overcome lies and overcome the furry of a few who were seeking to thwart the will of the many. while the attack on our values and our votes shocked and saddened the nation, our democracy did survive. it did. truth defeated lies. we did overcome, and that's because of the women and men of the u.s. capitol police, the washington, d.c. metropolitan
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police department, and other law enforcement officials we honor today. speaker pelosi, who led the effort in the house, senator klobuchar and blunt, co-sponsors of legislation in the house and to all of my colleagues, pat leahy and others who are here, thank you. thank you. today i'm going to sign into law the bill you sent to me that awards the congressional gold medal to the united states capitol police, the washington, d.c. metropolitan police department and other law enforcement for their service in defense of our democracy on january the 6th. to all of them, on behalf of a grateful nation, thank you, thank you, thank you for protect tinge our capitol. maybe even more importantly, for protecting our constitution and saving the lives of duly elected
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members of the senate and the house and their staff. these moments when we are still debating, these were tragic hours back then. you stood in the breach. you did your duty, your duty to defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic. the events that transpired were surprising, but not your character, your courage, chief, and all of your men and women. i didn't grow up with any of you, but i know you. you're just like all the women and men i grew up with, particularly at that time it was men, in scranton and claymont, places where the neighborhood i lived in, you became a cop, a firefighter or a priest. i wasn't qualified for any of them, so here i am. but, look, all kidding aside, i
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got to know you. you're the same ones after a ball game in a visiting field come walking out of the gym, if you wanted you would make a jump by the other team or their supporters. you may be all by yourself, the only one standing there when you watch six people jump one of our teammates. what the hell would you do? you would jump in. you jump in, knowing you are going to get the hell beat out of you, too. police officers are not what you do, it is who you are. i got to know you after 36 years in the senate, eight years as vice president. you're always there. it is not a joke. it is not some hyperbole that suggests duty honors service. that's who you are. that's who your dad was.
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that's who your dad was. america owes you a debt we can never fully repay. i know receiving this award is bittersweet. on that day more than 140 law enforcement officers suffered physical injuries, an untold number suffering an emotional toll. 15 of you were hospitalized and others were lost forever. may those souls rest in peace and rise in glory. i know each time you put on that shield in the morning or whenever you show for work, your families wonder whether they're going to get a call that day, a call they don't want to receive, hoping you come home safely. it breaks my heart, it breaks the heart of the nation to
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remember that you were assaulted by thousands of violent insurrectionists at the capitol of the united states of america. jill and i would never have thought we would have to join you at the capitol rotunda not once but twice, once to honor officer brian sicknick who lost his life, and the second time to honor billy evans who lost his defending the capitol as well. both gave the full measure of their devotion to the country at the united states capitol. their families are here today. i know from similar -- yes, we should clap for the families.
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i know, like others may know from personal experience getting that phone call, it is nice to be honored and have those you lost remembered, but it is tough to be here. it brings back everything like it happened ten minutes ago. so i offer you not only our condolences but recognize your courage, the courage of your children, and you have our most profound gratitude. you know, the fallen in my view are casualties of a struggle literally for the soul of america, a struggle that they didn't start, a struggle we didn't seek, and a struggle that by the grace of god we'll win.
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as i said, i know this is a bittersweet moment. as proud as brian and billy, as you are, it still brings back pain the moment it happened. also, we offer our prayers to the families of the capitol police officer, howard lebengood. those who have been around knew his dad, knew his dad well. he was sergeant of arms at the united states senate. we also pray for the families of the metro police officer, jeffrey smith, for anyone out there facing trauma, for anyone still struggling, please know there is help available. my fellow americans, the tragedy
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of that day deserves the truth above all else. we cannot allow history to be rewritten. we cannot allow the heroism of these officers to be forgotten. we have to understand what happened, the honest and unvarnished truth. we have to face it. that's what great nations do. we are a great nation. in the past weeks and months i've heard the officers themselves, some of whom are here today, describe what happened, the threats, the violence, the savageness. when asked what he was fighting for, officer hodges, who is here today, stated it eloquently, one word. democracy. my fellow americans, let's remember what this was all about. it was a violent attempt to overturn the will of the american people, to seek hower at all costs, to replace the
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ballot with brute force, to destroy, not to build. without democracy nothing is possible. with it, everything is. so, my fellow americans, we must all do our part to perfect and to preserve our democracy. it requires people of good will and courage to stand up to the hate, the lies, the extremism that led to this vicious attack. it requires all of us working together, democrats, republicans, independents, on behalf of the common good to restore decency, honor and respect for our system of government. above all, it requires all of us to remember who we are at our best as a nation. as we see it in the law enforcement officers who are here today, the best of our nation. congressional gold medal awards today will be housed in four
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locations, two medals will be displayed at the u.s. capitol police department and the washington, d.c. metro police departments so that every morning you officers walk by, seeing those medals, and remember the heroism of their colleagues and the importance of their work. the third medal will be displayed at the smithsonian museum with a plaque honoring all law enforcement that protected the capitol on january 6th so all visitors can understand what happened that day. the fourth one will be displayed at the capitol itself to remind us all who served and currently serve there and all who visit, the honor and the service of those who protect and preserve all of us. i'll now ask speaker pelosi, if she is able -- not able, willing, and senator klobuchar and senator blunt, chief conte
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and chief manger and others here today to join me as i sign this bill into law. may god bless you all and may god protect our troops and all those who serve watch over our democracy. come on over. >> you probably want leahy. >> yeah, sure. come on, patrick. come on. >> pat!
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>> daphne. >> this is a silly way to do this. mommy will explain it to you later. >> you can put the top on.
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>> thank you so much. >> you're welcome. >> nance. >> amy over here. right behind you. >> amy. roy. now, you have to help me out. would you give a pen to each of the other people back there? and then i will get pens for you, okay? you hand them out, all right? >> thank you, sir. >> no, no, no. no. >> -- lost two friends --
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>> oh, thank you very much. hey, how are you? thanks for coming out. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> how are you? >> mr. president, thank you. >> thank you all so very much. you're incredible. i know there's nothing happy about this, but it is important, to be commemorated. thanks. all right. now, i think what they're going to do, if you are willing, is we're going to take the families, they're going to go that way and maybe to the oval office that way, okay, get some pictures taken. all right.
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follow the navy. >> how are you? ♪ ♪ we are listening because our microphone has picked up the president of the united states doing a little bit of event organizing here. we heard him telling the officers assembled and their families members that they will go take pictures now away from the rose garden with the families and the law enforcement officials, officers who are being honored today with congressional gold medals. the president there in some of his sharpest terms yet as president describing heroes of that day, law enforcement officials, and describing what they faced, an insurrection.
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in today's political climate, for any of our leaders to do so. john heilemann, i'm always reminded that this president is perhaps our country's most fluent in the language of grief. he knows that for some of these families they have lost loved ones, and he never refuses to open up his lengthy history as someone who has grieved those he loves. >> that's right, nicolle. i think, you know, it is actually -- you know, it is interesting if you look back over biden's career. he was not always like this and, you know, it was the case that for most of the time after his wife and daughter tragically died back in 1972, he didn't talk about it through the '70s and through the '80s and through the '90s really.
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he just started to kind of open up about it a little bit in the middle of the obama administration, and then it was after beau, his son, died that the thing was fully kind of ripped open and he suddenly became much more open about it, talked about the cumulative weight of it and was, as you say, even though i genuinely believe -- i know him pretty well, i think every time he talks about it he relives it a little bit. every time he opens himself up, it is a little bit -- it is reliving it for himself. he knows that for everybody who experiences that kind of grief that it never really goes away fully. it fades but it never goes away fully. every time he puts himself out that way, he makes a very conscious sacrifice because he knows he's going to have to relive some of the grief that he has had, but he knows how important it is for those who are going through grief earlier in the process, earlier in the cycle to be reached out to by someone who knows what that feels like. he understands it and he really
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does, he has become, you know, this kind of -- not just the mourner in chief because that's a traditional role for president, but he sort of absorbs the grief of those around him. he is a sort of grief sponge in a way, and people -- you know, you watched it happened throughout this 2020 presidential campaign. even at the worst of the campaign for biden, even when the crowds were thinnest, even when the fewest people were there to see him in iowa or new hampshire and there were 50 people in the room when there should have been 500, when it was over you would always on the rope line have someone or two or four or six people who wanted to come up and commune with joe biden over the grief in their life, who wanted to come up and talk to them about the person that they had lost, the brother or the sister or the mother or the father or the child, from whatever, an accident, from cancer, from anything. it was kind of an extraordinary thing. i have never seen a politician in my career doing this for whom grief is so central and it is such a core part of what people
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identify in him and with him. i have never really seen it before, and it is in moments like this when i think it is -- i don't want to use the language of assets and liabilities, but it is a powerful gift of his that he has that at his disposal in these moments. >> you know, one of the other intentions that was very clear, clint watts, was describing where the medals would be displayed, and it seemed important to this president to make clear that everyone who visited the smithsonian would see the medal and would understand the heroics of these officers who protected the men and women inside the capitol and our very democracy, that anyone -- and i seemed to be speaking to visitors, too, and those who work in the united states capitol would also see one of the four medals as it would also be displayed there. he seemed to nod to future
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generations of law enforcement officials who would see the congressional gold medals at their police departments and know what the men and women who walked before them had sacrificed to protect our democracy. >> that's right, nicolle. i think it is important to do that because what you have right now is a political situation in america where a good chunk of the country is trying to rewrite what happened on that day. they're trying to create an al alternative history of it. the valor of these officers that was shown could be lost if it continues. it is a way to cement their place in history, to give them a spot alongside the other heroes that have defended american citizens, and not just any american citizens, in this case the elected officials. the vice president of the united states was there that day, the speaker of the house directly under threat. i think it is an important milestone. it really cement it their place in history and it is one of the most violent attacks in our
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nation's history and one that is fully documented. you can visually see it. we watch it almost every day at this point. so i admire them doing that and really putting it out there and making sure that the truth and the reality of january 6th sticks around for generations to come. >> it is such an important point. it is also a memorial to the truth of that day, so desperately needed. betsy woodruff swan, i'm going to put you on the spot because you're one of the best reporters we get to talk to. do we know why kevin mccarthy wasn't there today? >> that's a good question. i don't have an answer to that. we know it would have been pretty uncomfortable for some of the folks participating if he had been given many members of the house republican conference are pushing one of many lies about that day, namely trying to make the case that this wasn't actually a violent domestic terror attack against the united states government. had he been there, i think it is something that would have cast a
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political pall on the proceedings. the fact that senator roy blunt was there gave it the bipartisan and apolitical sense of inclusion, inclusivity in this particular event, but bringing in someone like mccarthy would have taken a day that was supposed to be focused on those officers and instead shifted the focus to the really ugly political football that's played out in the wake of those attacks. one thing i just note is that the lawmakers who go to the capitol every day that congress is in session along with the reporters and staff and other employees who work in that building often feel -- often feel that the police officers there are sort of office mates. they may see those police officers more often than they see some of their family members, some of their colleagues, and clearly that's a feeling that biden and harris both had, a feeling of connection to these officers and genuine concern about their well-being. >> it is such a good point, john
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heilemann. you know, when you work in the white house you are greeted and checked in every day, you get to drive in then it is at the gate. if you walk in, it is at the north gator closer to the elipse by secret service, but they are the people that you see first thing in the morning, and it is usually someone else that you see when you walk out because of the hours that you work, but that also brings into focus betsy's point about the trespass against these people who are in her word like office mates. other reporters have described them like they're work family. what i think the president danced pretty artfully around by asserting what the truth of the day was, was a rebuke of those lying about the truth of the day. >> well, right, and, you know, i -- it takes us back to, you know, one of our topics here, nicolle, one of the topics that you and i have come back to of late with frequency which is, you know, just the
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outrageousness and the moral bankruptcy of those who in the face of all evidence that we know, in the face of all of the video, the face of the suicides, the face of the accounts of these men, in the face of the body camera footage, in the face of all of that, those who continue to insist that what we've all seen and what is manifestly true is not. what an incredible slap in the face that is to those men. yes, that is part of why it is so shocking, that it is, i said on monday i think on the show i went on some kind of tirade about tucker carlson and laura ingraham and those on fox news who call the actors now horrible. but they don't know these people. they are terrible humans for doing that on national television, but they have no personal relation. it is so much more gratuitous and grotesque when you think about the members of congress, the republican members of the house and senate who on a routine basis now, people whose
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lives were actually saved potentially by these men, who go out on television or stand up in front of their constituents and continue to essentially spit in their face by calling them liars and calling them liars in the face of a mountain of evidence, an event that's been amply chronicled and it is not hard at all to know what happened that day. so, yes, i think the president did not want to go where we sort of have to go and should go, but he did a very nice job of dancing around it, as you said. but it is there. i don't think it is actually -- i think it is important for all of us, you know, to be cognizant of it, and i think it has to be incredibly uncomfortable, especially for those officers to see some of those men on capitol hill now who they used to think of, as you said, office mates, who are doing what they're doing to them by denying their reality and their pain. >> i think what, john, you are detailing is one of the exhibits that lets us talk about the
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republican party as an autocratic movement, its complete and utter dependence on propaganda, on alternate reality, a phrase that trump adviser kellyanne conway gifted to all of us, grappling with what it was they were covering. someone that knows more than me about this is anne applebaum, staff writer for "the atlantic" and historian. anne, many quoted your tweets, i believe yesterday, some of the tweets about tucker carlson's host there in hungary and the intersections between what some on the right seem to deeply, deeply crave in terms of control of the press. i wonder your thoughts as we're talking about having to fight for the truth that we all saw with our own eyes on live tv, unfold on that day, and many in the republican party's commitment to confusing at least their own base about what the facts really are about january
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6th? >> yes. i wouldn't describe it as the whole republican party, but it certainly is true that a part of the party now lives in a bubble of its own creation, and inside that bunl bubble it is able to create facts that don't match with the facts of reality. this is, of course, a tactic that authoritarian leaders have used for decades if not centuries. cut off all access to outside information, sought to keep its citizens misinformed about their own country and about the world. we were all happy in 1990-91 when that system broke up partly because of the internet and partly because news was able to break those walls. one of the lessons of the last few years has been that the internet is also useful for creating new walls because it can create alternative reality
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bubbles in which people are fed the same repetitive misinformation over and over again, and the heart of the republican party has learned how to use that to good effect. >> anne, i wonder where you think things stand in terms -- because you are right, a bubble is a good word for it, but it is a pretty sizable -- i mean inside that bubble lives the most animated part of the republican base. liz cheney and adam kinzinger whether or not they know it will forever live outside the bubble. lifelong conservatives like charlie sykes and bill kristol will live outside the bubble, because inside the bubble the truth and the facts can't survive. but i wonder if you see it as a thought-out part of a strategy for what comes next? if you agree with some of the observations by max boot that this is laying the foundation for more successful coup in 2024, or if you think this is just reflexive rage from the twice-impeached ex-president?
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>> i think there's probably both, but i think there's certainly some people in the republican party who are now really very carefully planning the next four years. i mean i was very struck by some of the things that governor desantis of florida has said in the last few days. for example, accusing joe biden of wanting to lock everybody down again. you now have some republicans saying things that they must know are not true, creating new lies which they can use to kind of loosen the relationship of their constituents to truth, but actually much more worrying than those kinds of lies are the continued ongoing lies about the election, about the 2020 election, and the attempt to create conditions that are easier to manipulate the results of the next election, whether it is the voting laws that repress people or keep them from voting or whether it is through electing state-level officials who may be more willing than
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republicans were in 2020 to overturn the results, because that was, of course, what january 6th was about. it was about trying to change the result of an election, trying to retrospectively change how americans voted, and that is an authoritarian instinct. it is about making sure that americans can't vote and inserting -- you know, inserting new procedures and people willing to cheat. yes, i am worried that a part of the republican party, and it is the most active part right now, is preparing itself to deprive americans of the right to vote or the right to have their votes counted correctly, and that may very well affect elections in 2022 or 2024. >> you know, i want to follow up on that. i think that the description of this as today's gop simply encapsulates the reality that there's no fight inside the gop. it is not like the people that
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are comfortable with the 400 voter suppression laws racing through 49 states are at war with the people that will say out loud what you just said, that those are anti-democratic measures predicated on a lie according to the republican lieutenant governor of georgia, the first state to pass theirs. i wonder if you think the democrats are meeting both the intensity of the republican's shameless lurch toward anti-voter measures like voter suppression and rigging and putting political cronies and patrons deep inside the kinds of institutions that barely preserved the 2020 election, do you think that democrats are, again, sort of asymmetrically outmatched by a republican devotion to that? >> so i think two things are true. number one, i don't want to give up completely on the republican party yet, not just because of liz cheney and representative kinzinger, but because there are other people who are still quite silent right now who i hope disagree with what is going on.
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remember, we're a two-party system, and if we concede that one of the parties has become an authoritarian party, sooner or later it will win elections and the country's in deep trouble. so i really do hope that some of the party will continue to keep the fight on within it. but, yes, actually i do agree with you that the democratic party at times seems pretty sleepy. i'm not sure -- you know, people have this sense of relief that biden won, trump is gone. most people want to move on understandably and do other things. biden's priority was always to unite the country, but there is going to come a point when alarm bells will have to start ringing and an attempt to, you know, whether it is to pass national legislation or whether it is to take greater efforts at the state level is going to have to begin. it is true that i don't think people are sufficiently alarmed. i think all of this is old news, it is over, it is time to move on. again, instinct understood, but, you know, we may very quickly,
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as i say, we may very quickly as soon as 2022 be in trouble again. >> yeah. clint watts, i want to bring you in on this topic and this idea that if you stare at the space and you stare at the disinformation and you look at the political comfort, if you will, inside the republican party around all of the lies, republicans knowing what they're saying cannot be true, and then you look at the democratic party operating in good faith, no doubt, and trying to do a whole lot of things at once as the only party dedicated to governing in a time of global pandemic and a time of really unprecedented assault on democratic norms, i wonder what your degree of alarm is, not just about the disinformation, not just about the extremism but about the reaction from the two political parties? >> yeah, that's right, nicolle. i admire what the biden administration has done in terms of governance, but the only people that know about it are those that are part of much more
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establishment communications, patterns around washington, d.c. oftentimes when i interact with them they will say, well, we don't want to talk about the disinformation because we will give it oxygen. oh, it's got plenty of oxygen. it is on rocket fuel. that alternative universe, that tucker carlson world, he is over in hungary right now. that's for a reason. there's a connective tissue of nationalism that is trying to push and shove down democracy across western europe and the united states, and it cannot be ignored. you don't have to worry about it if you are messaging from the white house that you are giving it oxygen because it has plenty of oxygen on its own. they are principally using messengers and their own alternative communication systems at this point. so i think a lot of people thought, oh, trump will exit twitter, trump will exit facebook and then it will just kind of fall away. but what happens is systems adapt, and the system is currently adapting. they're moving to new platforms,
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they're creating new mechanisms. if you get the text messages from the trump campaign, there are two and three a day doing fundraising over and over again. there's resources behind this movement and there's still enthusiasm. the rallies have not stopped since inauguration day and they won't all the way through. they are committed to this message, they're committed to their alternative reality. it will creep up and back into 2022, and you are seeing other republican politicians, not running away from that message in the face of the insurrection, actually embracing it. they are moving into it. they are leaning into that cause. so the longer they delay in terms of countering and rebutting those messages, even though it is through alternative channels, the worse it is going to be for them next year whenever the election cycle comes up again. >> we will stay on it. i'm so grateful to get to talk to all of you. anne applebaum, thank you for being part of the conversation. betsy woodruff swan, thank you for joining us. today john heilemann and clint watts, thank you for starting us
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off on a day like today. when we return, the one-time senate candidate and long-time marine pilot pilot liking to defeat the caucus on capitol hill. we will continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. anywhere. what happens when we welcome change? we can transform our workforce overnight out of convenience, or necessity. we can explore uncharted waters, and not only make new discoveries, but get there faster, with better outcomes. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions,
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s. my fellow americans, the tragedy of that day deserves the truth. we can't aloud history to be rewritten. we can't allow these heroism of these officers forgotten.
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we have to understand what happened. we have to face it. that's what great nations do. we are a great nation. >> nearly seven months after the attack at our capitol. the question remains, will those who voted against our democracy on january 6th ever be held accountable. former senate candidate devoted her life to service our country. she's now continuing that service to make sure something like the insurrection will never happen again. joining us is amy mcgrath. the title of "honor bound," it is really, really great to get to talk to you on a day like today where the service of the capitol police officers was on displayed by our cousins.
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>> we all have an obligation to continue the fight to make our country better. it does not end with one election. we have to protect our democracy. that's what january 6th showed me. we can't put up our arms and say it is all over. we have to find ways to make our country better and stay involved. >> let me read of what you write in your new book. "as i watched invaders breach the capitol on january 6th, 2021, for the first time i was stunned. eventually other emotions started to sink in. i see our flag fluttering at the
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rotunda. what happened was not politics or protesting. it was not about tax policies or the size of the government or an election. it was treason. it was an attack aided and abetted by a deeply flawed president. it is not acceptable at this painful historic moment torespo. if our democracy is to survive, americans must step up. you started a pack, your focus on this issue and sort of following those who are accountable, does that start with kevin mccarthy? >> it absolutely does. my pack, i have two democratic
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majority action which is going after members of congress who supported the insurrectionists on january 6th. i have another pact which is a leadership pact that's trying to inspire women in particular and those who have served our country to step forward and do the hard thing of running or elected office and becoming the leaders that our country need right now. that's what "honor bond" all about. >> it feels like this sort of cult to serve for a moment of crisis that you heard from all across the idealogical.
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>> what i want to do with my book is inspire young womens to follow their dreams. also, reminding folks it is a hard and long battle. it is worth fighting. all the way into the political atmosphere, we need american courage with integrity and honor to stand up and run for these really tough positions and get into office to make a difference now more than ever. what you are seeing and you know this and you have been talking about it all day. we have one party and one side that's filled with leaders that have no spines that know what they are doing are wrong and they are continuing to do it. our democracy is fragile and we have to have people of character to stand up and i happen to believe in one of support those women who have already proven that they can serve this country
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whether it is in the fbi or peace corp. or in our military to stand up and run for office. i want to be behind them. i know there are a lot of americans that agree with me. >> you names and you one of the people you described is mitch mcconnell. let me read a little bit of what you write about him. >> i don't think i lost to a conservative or a republican, i didn't come up short over a battle of ideologies. mcconnell supported a pathological liar and showed absolutely contempt for the rule of law. i don't believe senator mcconnell cares about conservative values, he does not have an ethics or an inner north star. his only inspiration is power and money. this is brutal but the sad truth
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about not only mcconnell but the rest of the republicans. how do you get that message through? >> why i think you have to keep saying it, especially here in kentucky and this is a place where mitch mcconnell has many, many years to label the other side and basically tell lies to people. so that's not going to be countered over night or one election. we can't quit. we can't give up. we have to have leaders to step up and run for office and say the truth. believe in our country, particularly those who have served the country because we know the truth. we got to come up here and not give up. that's what this is about. >> the book is called "honor


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