>> tonight on all in. >> donald trump's pattern has been to use acolytes and sycophants in this position's weather in the white house or in the congress. >> the widening investigation into trump's attempt to subvert democracy, and the role his chief of staff play than it. >> mark meadows everybody. >> then, just one day after the bipartisan infrastructure vote, republicans are back to their old obstructionist ways. >> republicans refusing to support anything on voting rights is not an excuse for democrats to do nothing. >> and as a cry of freedom over

masks and vaccines -- >> we don't have to accept the mandates. >> they do not respect your liberties. >> i trust them to know their circumstances better than government. >> why actual libertarian legal scholars say it's ridiculous, that's when all in starts right now. now. >> good evening from washington d.c., i'm mehdi hassan in for chris hayes. in march of last year when donald trump had to pick his fourth chief of staff, he decided on mark meadows, a right-wing republican congressman from north carolina. trump said at the time i have long known and worked with marc in the relationship is a very good one. perhaps as because the two of them have a lot of common, both men made of fortune at its real estate development, meadows, like trump also hated obamacare, and they both promoted the racist birther conspiracy theory which says that he was

not born here in the united states. >> it's interesting, the more we find out, the more we realize how wrong the direction we're going is, what we're gonna do is take back our country, 2012 is the time that we're gonna send mr. obama home to kenya or wherever it is, we're gonna do it. >> charming. when it came to overturning a free and fair election in 2020, mark meadows shined up for the two. back in june he reported that in trump's final week, meadows pushed the justice department to investigate unfounded conspiracy theories about the 2020 presidential election, which included debunked claims of election fraud in new mexico and my personal favorite, a baseless conspiracy, a bunkers conspiracy dubbed italy gate, a fantastical theory that people in italy had to use military technology and satellites to remotely temper with voting machines in the united states, and switch votes from trump to

joe biden. but there's more, emails released by the house oversight committee shows that meadows press then acting attorney general jeffrey rosen to investigate voter fraud in georgia, including one email sent january 1st that read quote, there have been allegations of signature match, anomalies in fulton county georgia, can you engage in this issue to see if there's any truth in this allegation. the very next day not only the mark meadows set up the infamous phone call where trump would ask raffensperger's to find 11,780 votes. he was also willing participant in the call. >> mister secretary, obviously there is, there are allegations where we believe that not every vote, or legal vote was counted, that is at odds with the representation from the

secretary of state's office, what i'm hopeful for is if there is some way, we can find some kind of an agreement to look at this a little bit more fully, and the president mentioned areas where there [inaudible] mister secretary i'm hopeful that in the spirit of cooperation and compromise, there is something that we can at least have the discussion to look at some of these allegations, to find a path forward that is less litigious? >> the day after the washington post released that extraordinary phone call, b.j. pak then u.s. attorney for the northern district of georgia which includes atlanta abruptly resigns. at the time, we did not know why, now we do, today in

closed-door testimony to the senate judiciary committee, he said that he quit because trump intended to fire him over his refusal to say that, to say that the results in georgia had been undermined by voter fraud. and now, it looks like the committee wants to talk to mark meadows next. senator dick durbin, the chairman of the senate judiciary committee said that he would like the opportunity to interview meadows, but you have to ask, what is the department of justice been doing for the last seven months when it comes to mark meadows? on monday night, on the show i asked the same thing about donald trump, look, i get that prosecuting a former president for inciting a coup and trying to deprive americans of very election can be complicated. it's unprecedented, but it shouldn't be for an out private citizen like mark meadows, why is he still a free bird, out there acting like trump's ever so loyal chief of staff? >> and the magic is still there,

we've been here working on what comes next, not only in 2024, but how we win back the house in 2022. we're looking at what does come next, i'm not authorized to speak on behalf of the president but i can tell you this, steve, we wouldn't be meeting tonight if we weren't making plans to move forward in a real way and with president trump at the head. >> mark meadows's role is a piece of the attempt to overthrow the united states government, now we are learning even more according to politico. in late december trump asked jeffrey rosen about a legal strategy that would've urged the supreme court to declare that the electoral college vote from six key swing states, lost by trump, cannot be counted because of baseless allegations of fraud. for the justices to order a special election for the president to be held in the states. there it is. there it is, the trump white

house in the form of the president and the chief of staff was trying to survive a coup. and expected everyone from the doj to the supreme court to help them get away with it. joyce vance is a legal analyst and former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama, and she joins me now. joyce, thank you so much for coming on the show. mark meadows is a private citizen, what kind of criminal exposure might he have right now? i want to play a little bit more from that phone call with raffensperger, here's mark meadows trying to persuade ryan germany to give over voter data to the trump team, with an assist from the president himself, take a listen. >> what you're seeing rain, let me make sure, so what you're saying is you really don't want to give access to the data. you just want to make another case on why the lawsuit is wrong? >> i don't think we can give access to data that's protected

by law. but we can sit down with them and say -- >> what you are allowed to have a phony election? you are allowed to have a fully election, right? >> what type of criminal liability does he have in a state like georgia? >> it's an important question, and the answer many might not be the one you're looking for is that the doj should be investigating to determine the answer to exactly that question. based on what is on the public record these days, we know that there is reason for doj to be looking at a number of crimes, particularly whether there was a conspiracy to defraud the government, whether there was some form of election interference or even criminal violation. all of those cases need to be fully investigated to determine whether any of them should be brought, the interesting twist is doj typically likes to keep its criminal investigations very private, until they reach a decision, and they only

announce indictments once they are ordained by the grand jury, it's a little bit difficult for us to know precisely what is going on at this point and time. >> but, just to be clear, you mentioned those cases, those are all criminal cases if they went for election conspiracy, this is serious stuff, i just want to add to add, joyce, how damaging do you think former u.s. attorney, b.j. pak's closed-door testimony on that issue was today? he said that he had answered all questions in a candid when my impression is that he believes in the rule of law and stood up to it, how much is that way into it? >> if pak's testimony is as reported, it's just another nail in the coffin here, because trump did so many things that was horrible that it can become difficult to forecast on all of those things, but here we have a u.s.

attorney who has been appointed by this president and he conducts investigations, in his district, the fbi does and they determine that there is no actionable voter fraud, that should be the end of it. that's a decision that should be backed by the deputy attorney general, and the attorney general. and instead the top leadership of the department bows to pressure from the white house in that pressures essentially this, we don't like the real facts, we want the facts to be something different so we can steal an election, that was a moment when the leadership of the justice department should have stood up, and if pack was going to be forced to resign, they should've resigned along with him. >> yes, and your former a.g. rosen who's been testifying, sounding to many like a hero, the man who stop trump from overturning the election, is he a hero in your view? >> i think it's great that he's testifying now, it's important

that we learn the truth about these failed efforts by trump to find a way to subvert the election, which ultimately left him in his mind with no option other than to go forward with the events on january six, that historical trail is important, it would've been far more valuable for the country to learn these facts while the impeachment was alive and on going, the country was at a real risk, perhaps we forget how dramatic those events on january six were. this attorney general could've been a profile encouraged by coming forward and trying to stop these events before they went into motion. >> one last quick question, do you believe that the doj's up to the task to investigating, indicting, and prosecuting donald trump and his cronies or is that a bridge too far? >> this is an impeccably well qualified doj, everyone from the attorney general, on down who will be involved in

considerations of investigations and prosecutions has deep experience, they know the business of prosecution, many hassan, you've heard me say that it's a lot easier to be a armchair prosecutor than it is to be the person who is in the grand jury looking at the evidence, making sure that you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt on all elements of a crime before you indict. i think the folks that president biden has put in place are more than capable of making these tough decisions, and these are people who will persist any sort of external pressure. they will look at the facts. >> but what happens, joyce vance, thank you for joining us tonight. congresswoman madeleine dean is a democrat from pennsylvania former impeachment manager, she joins me live now. congresswoman, as a former impeachment manager, what do you think when you hear the scope of mark meadows efforts to help him overthrow the

election, he says that mark meadows helped introduce him to jeffrey cargo is putting together a secret plan to oust rosen the acting a.g. and forced georgia to overturn its results, mark meadows seems to be integral to all of this, is he not? >> thank you for having me, i'm joining you from my car, i apologize i'm between summer storms here in pennsylvania, in my district, i just left young democrats, they are so eager to learn more about what happened, what's fails, who stepped up and served and who did not. and so mark meadows, what's a deep disappointment. but you can see what happened here, as you pointed out in your reporting, this is his fourth chief of staff, trump, his circle was shrinking, the pool of qualified people was shrinking and so he put people around him who were willing to do his bidding. and what's this reveals is another set of data points and

i have a feeling we're gonna see a [inaudible] was a full-time job of calling people, elected officials, state election officials, legislatures trying to overturn the election. mark meadows, it's gravely disappointed and we will need to hear much more of these phone calls, emails and others. trying to persuade people to say the election was fraudulent when 60 quartz or more said that it was not. >> yes. congresswoman, how do you view the former attorney general jeffrey rosen, some democrats have held him as a courageous whistle blower, but he didn't come forward during the impeachment hearings in which you are a manager, did he? he testified before congress earlier this year and was asked whether trump asked him to interfere in the election and he dodged that question, have a listen. >> prior to january six were you asked or instructed by

president trump to take any action at the department to advance election fraud claims, or to seek to overturn any part of the 2020 election results. congressman, as we have just alluded to in your prior question, i can tell you what the actions of the department -- >> no sir, no sir. mr. rosen -- >> i've assisted with my obligations today about private conversations with the president one way or another. >> what do you make of former acting a.g. jeffrey rosen, congresswoman? >> thank you for asking, and i want to reserve judgment. and i want to point out two things. on the one, how he came before, voluntarily came before senate judiciary and offered hours and hours of what i am sure is going to be valuable testimony. like, you i wish he had come forward sooner, but you have to remember, this is a change of administration from the trump administration that treated the department of justice as its

own personal political law firm. to do is bidding under and a.g. barr and others. so the transition to biden and merrick garland, it was garland and his department of justice that -- i guess it was in the last month, freed people to testify. i'm going to reserve judgment and try to understand why it is that mr. rosen did not come forward sooner. but i certainly think him for doing two things, coming forward now and holding the line when the president of the united states urged him and his deputy to simply call it corrupt and leave the rest to me and my republican congressman friends. mr. rosen held the line. there >> yes. one last quick question, will we ever see, do you think, criminal charges against donald trump and his top aides, and if not, are we not saying to americans, to the world, that yes, somebody is beyond the law

in america and can risk it coup temps in the future? >> i don't know the answer to your question. i certainly know that we have many folks looking at criminal charges and it sure seems as though charges should be brought in many cases and at many levels. but what this all points out is something else that happened this week. and i want to compare this -- value system between democrats who, in the face of mr. cuomo's difficulties, troubles, and behaviors came forward after the solved the independent a.g. report and said he must resign. he does not represent the values of a public servant, he created a toxic work environment, and he sexually harassed members of his staff. democrats came out, including the very president of the united states, and said you must resign. what's republicans like meadows have done over the course of six years in the face of the

corruption and the alleged illegal matters around a president -- look at them, surrounding him still, holding him up still. in attempting to insulate him from the corruption, ended since, -y and criminal charges that he should face. >> it's mind-boggling. it is truly mind-boggling. >> if you take a look at these two parties and -- thank you. it's just -- it reveals values, you don't need to look much further than that. >> thank you so much for your time tonight, i appreciate it. >> thank you very much, glad to be with you. >> one texas democrats fled the state a month ago to try to stop republicans from ramming through voter suppression bills, in a special legislative session, this is how the governor of texas responded. >> i can and i will continue to call special session after special secession after special session all the way up until

election next year. as soon as they come back in the state of texas, they will be arrested, they will be cab and inside the texas capital until they get their job done. >> well tonight, he has made good on part of that threat there are now arrest warrants now on those texas democrats. and one of them joins me next. hem joins me next.

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the state has seen more than 32,000 new covid cases in the past 72 hours and dozens of hospitals are out of icu beds. but guess what? the gop led state legislature has other priorities. while there are plans to consider a bill to appropriate covid funds, the bulk of the current legislative session is focused on things like banning critical race theory for the second time or blocking transgender athletes from competing in school sports and of course, that bill restricting voting rights, which is the reason why nearly 60 democratic lawmakers fled the state more than a month ago. texas law requires a certain number of legislators to be present for work to begin and most of those democrats have not returned from the capital.

is there any other way to block the anti democratic gop agenda? meanwhile, the budget -- despite it costing we top taxpayers $40,000 a day. and the republican state house speaker has signed more than 50 to arrest warrants for apps and democrats which means they can be detained and compelled to return to the capital. joining me now is one of those democrats jasmine top rated, representative cochrane, thank you so much for joining me. there is a warrant with your name on. it are you still compelled to return to texas, because you're in d.c., aren't you? >> i am in d.c., i'm very close to the white house now. and i'm supposed to be having dinner with two of john lewis's brother's at this moment. i am not concerned, for those who don't know, my background is that i am a criminal defense

attorney and we have some of the most amazing attorneys that have jumped on the case. so we are fighting this in various venues. one of them is in harris county, a county that, oddly enough, the republicans have targeted all session long, including these special sessions. so i do anticipate that i will be able to be victorious which will allow me to walk about freely and do the work, in my district, until we have a hearing on the validity as to whether or not the speaker can even effectually effectuate these warrants. >> so the republicans are now around five members short of what they need to get their legislation passed. how long can texas democrats realistically keep this going, civil warns, arrest warrants, or not? >> i think so long as we have some protection from the courts. then we are okay. i think it becomes very

questionable if we lose those protections. right now, we are looking at being protected and i believe that my colleagues are going to hold on. we have been fighting for so long and we know that the fight is not quite over. we know that we have done what we can do here and beat d.c.. we saw what happened at 4 am when our wonderful senator from texas decided that he did not want any voting legislation to even be debated about. so people need to be at home. we need to be helping our constituency because, as you stated, our governor is failing all texans, including hard constituents. so we need to be on the ground, we need to be helping out with covid vaccinations we need to be going door-to-door, making sure that we're checking on people, that they have, access the information that they, need to protect themselves. and we personally, i need to backup people like my county judge who is going up against our governor as a ways to him deciding that there can be no mask mandates. >> representative crocker, i

will be interviewing democratic senator chris van hollen in a moment. what is your message to him, to senate democrats, when it comes to protecting democracy in texas, and elsewhere, would you want them to do that they are not doing? >> it starts with passing hr one obviously. would i want senate democrats to see is that we have a governor that is hell-bent on doing whatever it takes to infringe upon the voting rights of the majority of texans. he is so hell-bent, that they are all about wrangling us into the chamber and making us their be there to vote. they want us to vote to take away the rights of so many. if they can do all of that with their majority, then what we can simply do is convince all of our colleagues, on the democratic side, that this is

bigger than texas that this is something that we have got to do to save democracy. that is what we were elected to do democrats tend to be the good guys. we need to be the good guys right now because we see with the bad guys are doing and if they are doing it in texas, they're gonna do it in georgia, they're gonna do it in arizona, they're gonna do it in florida. we see what they are doing they are trying to take us down. and that's not what any of us should stand for. but we see that they are not the party of the republicans, they just have philosophical differences. we see that they are the party of trump and the party of the proud boys. the party of insurrectionists. we need to save our democracy and we need to save it, like, yesterday. >> yes indeed, we do. whether the democrats in the senate are listening, we will find out later on the show. but i will be speaking to senator chris van hollen. but for now, representative justin crockett, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you so much.

>> every single republican in the united states voted against even debating voting rights bill, so where the democrats on killing the filibuster to save american democracy? >> we have made progress and we are showing, very clearly, at every one of our 50 senators, that republicans will not join us. and yet the importance of voting rights has strengthened in the minds of every everybody. everybody. >> the trade-offs in the senate and the price of bipartisanship with a top democratic senator next. senato next o still runs marathons, right? sadly, not anymore. wow. so sudden. um, we're not about to have the "we need life insurance" conversation again, are we? no, we're having the "we're getting coverage so we don't have to worry about it" conversation. so you're calling about the $9.95 a month plan

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bipartisanship with the trillion dollar infrastructure bill that passed yesterday in the united states senate, with 19 republicans vote, including republican minority leader mitch mcconnell. that stands in stark contrast to today when every single senate republican blocked

advancing the voting rights act, before heading off to a month long recess. even though they can do bipartisanship, that does not mean they will. and because saving the anti-democratic filibusters a thing that they care most about, senators like shelley moore compete is out pretending that there will be many more bipartisan bill moving forward, so why get rid of the filibuster saying quote, when we work together and really put the nose to grindstone, we can get bipartisan support to move forward, that's why the bipartisan group did, so i think it blunts the argument on the filibuster. >> the thing is, it is worth it for republican leaders like mitch mcconnell to vote for a bipartisan infrastructure bill, if it means preserving their beloved filibuster. if it means they're able to carry on killing on any democratic priorities including the protection of our voting rights. look, while it's great this country is getting you roads and bridges, it doesn't matter if the country ends up not

being a proper democracy anymore? i'm joined now to talk with chris van hollen of maryland he's a member of the budget committee which crafted the 3.5 trillion-dollar budget resolution, with the senate passed overnight. senator, thank you for joining me on the show this evening, the bipartisan infrastructure bill was a big win for your party, for the white house, but it also seems like mitch mcconnell and the republicans see it as a way of blunting the filibuster. in order to get a bigger win for themselves on voting rights. >> well, maybe i'm glad that we got the bipartisan when, modernizing our physical infrastructure, but probably more important, more revealing vote was the one right after that, when we move to go to the budget resolution, which will help expand job opportunities and educational opportunities for every americans, republicans voted no.

that legislation would cut the cost of prescription drugs, they voted no, that would allow medicare to cover dental and hearing and vision services, they voted no. but here's the catch, we were allowed to go forward with it because the senate rules say that when there's a budget related thing, you can cast things with a majority, it's 51 senator vote, the way democracies push to work. and if you can do it for a budget related thing, for god sakes, you should be able to do it to get a majority to protect our democracy, and so that should be the lesson that came out of last night. >> so, i want to come back to the budget reconciliation bill in a moment, but just thinking from a democratic angle, i want to play to use some of what chuck schumer said recently about the importance of passing pro democracy voting rights legislation, take a listen. >> and what did democrats made

clear? we're standing up to voter suppression. failure is not an option. voting is too sacred and everything will be on the table to get it done. >> in the fight for voting rights, this vote was the starting gone. not to the finish line. voting rights will be the very first matter of legislative business when the senate returns to session in september. >> so, i hear democrats, especially senate democrats talking a big day game about protecting voting rights, but if your caucus doesn't get rid of the filibuster, what can you really deliver? we know that you cannot get voting rights done without getting rid of the filibuster. >> well that is right, we have to change the role it's an anti-democratic small d rule, it's an invention of the senate, and if the senate can change its rules to allow budget bills to pass by a majority vote,

certainly, we should be able to change the rules to allow majority vote to protect our democracy. after all, just back in 2017, republicans used 51 votes and a budget resolution to give a big corporate tax rate giveaway. and so, what we're saying to all of our colleagues, and trying to persuade every afar colleagues to focus on, is how does it make sense of a rule that allows the majority, on budget bills, which it should, but not to allow us to protect our democracy, when you have the states legislatures like those in texas, and the legislature you just interviewed, who have those republicans trying to put up obstacles, trying to block people from access to the ballot box? so you're absolutely right. we are going to need to muster the 50 votes to change, amend the filibuster whether it's a

onetime change for the protection of democracy, or would i prefer is to be to get rid of the filibuster, but regardless, that kind of change has to go forward in order to make sure and make real the commitment to protect voting rights. >> someone blocking that changes joe manchin, your colleague from west virginia you not just standing in the way filibuster reform he put out a statement today basically attacking the budget reconciliation bill, the 2.5 trillion dollar price tag, he says it's too big, gets to inflation, he also says this adding trillions of dollars more to 20 trillion dollars of national debt without any consideration of the effects as one of those decisions that has become too easy in washington. here on the budget committee that helped write this bill, what is your response to the democratic colleagues concerns, but many would say sound like republican concerns about the debt, inflation? >> we'll first of all, mehdi,

on the debt issue as president biden has said, and we said in the budget committee, we are going to pay for this investment, the tree trillion proposal, we're gonna pay for it through tax reform, we're gonna pay for it by cutting down some huge corporate loopholes that allows them to put their profits overseas like the cayman islands, rather than contributing to investments, here in the united states. we're gonna close loopholes that allow multimillionaires to pay zero income taxes as we saw recently, and i think that's gonna be something that's gonna bring the democratic caucus together. the other thing i want to mention is that people talk about the 3.5 trillion, it is important to recognize that as biden laid out in his proposal, over a trillion dollars of that is actually tax cuts to middle casket middle class families, it includes including those

payments of $300 per child, republicans who said they're voting against, it they're voting against tax cuts for middle class families, in fact one of the big is in [inaudible] american history. and so, it's important to recognize that this bill includes tax cuts for middle class families and investments like early education, and investments and making sure that folks on medicare can get coverage for vision, dental and hearing services. if republicans want to say no to seniors on that, you know, they can vote that way. but i think our colleagues at the end of the day will come together on these issues. >> i think you're right, both on brett budget reconciliation, but i think your move right on voting rights. we will have to leave it there. senator chris van hollen of maryland, thank you very much for your time, we appreciated. >> good to be with you, thank you. >> coming up.

medical professionals harassed for trying to protect kids from covid. >> we know who you are. we know who you are. you can leave it freely, but we will find you, and we know who you are. >> never gotten public again. >> the danger and unhinge response to masks in school in the critical republicans pushing against the mandate. i will explain next. ll explain next. it's relentless. we do everything but control it. and when it's running out. we relentlessly try to protect it. because "all the time in the world" it's just a saying. today, for women living with hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer, more time is possible with verzenio.

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aspects of this pandemic has been a way in which basic public health measures, like social distancing, masks, vaccines, have all been dragged by the gop into americas ridiculous culture wars. i mean just check out this video from a school board meeting in franklin, tennessee last night showing anti mask protesters screaming at -- who had just spoken in favor of masks in schools. >> we know who you are.

you can leave -- but we will find you, and -- there will never be >> you are never going to -- >> absolutely bonkers. but here's the thing, as with so many culture war issues, liberals and democrats are running away from these fights when they should be leaning into them and winning them. those screaming anti-maskers are not the majority of this country. just look at this new poll up today from morning consult in politico. 56% of registered voters support vaccinations for all americans except for those -- with medical conditions. and 71.2% percent of them have had at least one shot. this new polling shows broad support for mask mandates. to 64% of registered voters say they support local governments requiring employees to wear masks in offices. 61% support requiring masks in indoor dining.

60 to support requiring masks in gyms. and 65% support masks in entertainment venues. so these mandates are clearly a winning issue for democrats. a clear and big majority of the american people are on their side. oh, and as for the other side? they are just drenched in hypocrisy. take a listen to texas republican senator ted cruz his latest anti-mask mandate and anti-vax rant on fox this week. >> there should be no mandates. zero, concerning covid. that means no mask mandates, regardless of your vaccination status, that means no vaccine mandates, that means no vaccine passports. and i've introduced legislation, a bill to ban vaccine passports, this week i'm introducing a bill to ban vaccine mandates and another one to and mask mandates. >> just one throughout small pointed cruise, your school --

your children attend in elite private school in houston, texas. whereas the blog going buoying reports, the school views the use of face coverings as an important way that we as a community can slow the spread of the virus and protect one another. due to the current situation in our community, our persons on compass will be required to have a face covering. so according to ted cruz, there should be no masks mandates, except apparently, at his own's kids very expensive school. no mandatory masks for your children in the classroom, but they're fine for mine. oh hypocrisy. ted cruz be thy name. coming up, another bad faith argument often made by republicans about anti vaccine mandates, that they are for weeks -- that they are in favor of such mandates. i'll talk to him right, here next. for network quality in america according to j.d. power.

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policies of the petty democrats. >> they do not respect your liberty, they do not respect your right to make choices about your health, care about your children, about your lives. >> i see no reason to be pushing vaccines on people. >> but it's just like their philosophy, they want to mandate, they want to impose. >> individual safety is managed every day as a matter of personal responsibility rather than by government mandate. >> there has been talk about potentially people advocating at the federal level, imposing compulsory masks on kids. we are not doing that here in florida >> with republican politicians like to pretend they are sticking to libertarian values, citing, liberty, freedom, personal choice as reasons to oppose just about every measure that could stop the spread of covid. but the thing is, a lot of actual libertarian legal scholars say that vaccine mandates are actually okay, they're fine. because you can have personal

freedom for yourself, but not at the expense of others. ilya's omen is the professor of law -- and a libertarian scholar at the cato institute. professor, thank you so much for coming on the show tonight. explain to others why vaccine mandates, in your view, are not oppression, not a throw to authoritarianism, not tyranny as the gop claims. >> thank you very much for having me. i think they are restriction on freedom, but they are a very small one. with a very large payoff in with four other people that they come into contact with is well that makes it very different from other infringements on liberty that are much larger in the case of lockdowns, for example, or where there is little or no benefit except possibly a benefit to the individual himself. so i think vaccines, therefore, are a special case where you get a small infringement on freedom, you have the jab, but

then you can move on with your life we. on the other hand, there is a big payoff in terms of saving lives. whereas there are other kinds of restrictions on liberty that are much more severe and different >> we so you have done all the reading, your scholar, your professor, you have done all the reading. you have done the intellectual heavy lifting. but i do wonder, for others, in other cases, were libertarianism today is just an excuse for many on the right to act selfishly, recklessly, and then pretend it's all about freedom and liberty when, of course, your freedom ends when mine begins. >> we people of almost every ideologically site liberty when it is convenient for them. as you mentioned earlier, not any of them -- few of them are actually libertarian is we they use those arguments when it is politically convenient but i don't think that they or other

politicians either left or right represent libertarianism anyway. >> it's funny you mentioned rand paul, i believe he was named by his father after a new rant which he does do the stick to of freedom and liberty. but as you point, out libertarianism is, correct me if i'm, wrong in favor if i'm wrong, we is in favor of open borders. and then you have republicans like ron desantis blaming immigrants, supporting building a wall. how does that work for a libertarianism? >> libertarianism certainly -- few more severe than migration restrictions which can find people with a life we -- simply because the happen to be born in the wrong place to the rim. parents and it is a far more severe restrictions than the vaccine mandate. i don't know whether rand paul

was named after iron rand but he himself describes himself as not libertarian embed as, quote, unquote constitutional rep will -- he does not claim to be. we >> so, what is your position on mask mandates. because we have talked about vaccine mandates, you said that infringement is minor and the payoff is back the other big row when we played a clip earlier in tennessee, people losing their minds, screaming about masks. some people have lost their minds about wearing a mask to protect their fellow citizens. a lot of governors have gone out of their way to ban masks but or where do you stand on that? >> i don't know if there's one single consistent libertarian position on this but my view is that mask mandates are very different from vaccine mandates because there are much more severe position on liberty and it's not just the jab and you

go on with their, life it's potentially anytime you go inside an indoor public space, you get this severe restriction, which is painful in annoying for many people, particularly those who wear glasses or have sensitive faces or other conditions. it's also -- it also inhibits human communication, which studies, show often comes through facial expressions. moreover, to put more evidence, we masks -- there is much more division among experts over the efficacy of masks. so it is a much more severe imposition of which -- my view is if you have the option of vaccination, which we, do and if you can use vaccine mandates, that's the option we should pursue rather than more severe in positions on the body including mask mandates, lockdowns, migration restrictions, and so on. >> will, i mean, we could

disagree on the masks, but i'm glad you're coming in speaking out about vaccine mandates. i appreciate you coming out professor ilya somin. thank. you >> thank you very much. >> that's all for all. we good evening. thank you, my friend. thanks for joining us this hour. the word failure is never good news. coming from a doctor, all the more so. but when you hear that word used as it was today by the clinical director of one state's flagship university hospital and level one trauma center, when you hear that word, failure, used this specific way by this specific kind of doctor, that is not just bad news. that is national news. >> so since the pandemic, i think the thing that hospitals have feared the most is just