tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC October 7, 2021 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT
♪♪ thanks don for joining us this. our happy to be back. this is just released today, a mom, the interview with the investigators went long. it was like a three and a half hour interview, in the end, the first one swearing however did not happen until about halfway through, this three and a half hour long interview. but this is how the swearing erupts. are you ready. here we go. >> question. it's our understanding the new year's day, acting attorney jeffrey rosen, provided a different justice department official jeffrey clark, with
yourself phone number. do you know what prompted mr. rosen to give mr. clark yourself on? number answer. i do not. question, had you and attorney general rosen or mr. richard donahue or anyone else that previously discussed mr. clark we can't reaching out to you in any way? >> yes. and december 30th are 31st, i can't remember exactly. i knew it was before new year's. richard donahue called me and told me he was very frustrated because president trump was solely focused on georgia. with respect to any voter fraud allegations. and he had commented, that nothing would dissuade him from believing the election was stolen from him. mr. donahue stated that the president just would not believe that he lost georgia. i don't know why. he didn't explain why. and i reiterated to him that we looked into several allegations. obviously we concluded there's nothing there. this is kind of disturbing, because in substance it met his own people had looked into it and reported back up. mr. donahue then asked me whether i knew jeffrey clark.
i told him no i did not know jeffrey clark. who is he? mr. donahue explained to me that clark was the assistant general for the environmental natural resources division, and he was also at the time, the acting chief of the civil division. he said jeff clark had quote, the presidents year. i asked him, what he meant by that. and he mentioned that jeff clark, in the justice department sign on to some letter suggesting the general assembly of the state legislature in georgia should call a special session, and they should refuse to certify the electoral college votes. also, mr. clark wanted the justice department to intervene or join, and i can't remember exactly, in a civil lawsuit. that was filed by the trump campaign, and i said well that seems, that's very, that's crazy. that's just highly crazy. i think the words i used, were bat bleep crazy. and that was the description. richard donahue told me that
jeff clark would be calling me, and that maybe i could talk to him about what we found, in to try to dissuade him from trying to suggest there was widespread fraud in georgia. i told rich donahue, well, he can call me all he wants. but it won't change anything. we're not going to be joining any lawsuits that are not substantiated by any evidence. at the time, which donahue mentioned to me that in fact, i should not be surprised if the president, called me directly. i said well, the president can call me all he wants. the answer is not going to change. and that was the end of the conversation. question. you indicated rich donahue thought the plan that jeff clark was interested in pushing forward was bat bleep crazy. but did it strike you as unusual that the acting head of the civil division of the justice department, would want to reach out to you, to discuss voting or election matters? answer. i thought that was strange. and highly irregular. question, and you said that rich donahue indicated that the
president might try to call you himself directly? have you ever had any situation where someone told you the president might contact you directly, for an issue? answer. i have not. question, in your experience, with that be unusual for any u.s. attorney, to hear that the president might contact them directly? answer. that would be highly irregular, given the fact that it's been traditionally their policies which the communication between the white house and justice department is highly regulated, through the office of legal affairs and the office attorney general, and deputy attorney general. question. and in the course of this discussion with rich donahue, to the two of you ever develop some sort of plan, for how you would deal with potential reach out from geoff clark, or from president trump? answer. no. there was no plan. . there was no plan. that testimony, unsealed today from a man named bjp pack. we've been following his story
for almost a year. now his resignation of his top federal processor -- just, forgive me, it just stunk to high heaven, when it happens. without explanation. in early january. we're in the middle of trump trying to stay in office, despite the fact that he lost the election. we had just learned at the time, just 24 hours earlier, about trump's effort to pressure georgia state officials into changing the vote count in georgia. into finding him just enough votes to the election results could be overturned. the same day, that he resigned, was when we learned about that call, pressuring georgia officials. again, he resigned as you need u.s. attorney, but he never had any explanation. now we have the explanation. and, we learn among other things that when he was the u.s. attorney of georgia, when all of this was coming down from the white house, about them trying to say that trump can really lose georgia, and then it was some sort of stolen election in the justice department should somehow intervene and fix it for trump,
at the time, he seems to have been quite unnerved, by the fact that white house chief of staff, mark meadows, turns up in person, in georgia, and an election say, in the middle of all of this. we covered this at the time. what is the white house chief of staff doing in georgia, in cobbe county? at a place where they are reviewing the ballots, and the election materials, in the state of georgia? what's the white house chief of staff doing their? now we get it, a little new insight on that. this was just unsealed today. question, and december 22nd 2020, president trump's white house chief of staff mark meadows, personally visited georgia during its signature audit of absentee by mail ballot, specifically the signature on the oath envelope. well it was our understanding that he was not allowed to enter the room where the signatures were being verified, he did meet with georges depp or terry's that competitive state. to discuss the audit process that was then underway.
my question to you mr. pack is, were you aware of this visit by white house chief of staff mark meadows? answer. i found out about it through the press. question, okay when did you first learn through the press about this? visit answer, i think it was immediately, the day operate after. question, did you have any particular reaction to learning about the? strip answer, i thought it was highly unusual. question and why did you think it was unusual? answer, well, in the middle of the process, the white house chief of staff would come visit, have a meeting with the secretary of state. i don't recall that ever happening in the history of the united states. he said it never happened before in the history of the united states. why the justice department was potentially going to do here, on behalf of the president of the united states, was in mr. packs words, bat bleep crazy. that u.s. attorney, was ultimately fired, as u.s.
attorney. his firing came down from the white house. he was told to resign after the president told senior justice department officials, how mad he was that none of the bs voting claims he wanted to make about george were being backed up by his office. he wanted this federal prosecutor, he won in the u.s. justice department, federal prosecutors office, in places like georgia, to say there was massive, criminal election fraud, that was under active investigation, and the election results were somehow suspect to potentially criminal. bjp would not say that. and so he had to go. now we know. today the judiciary committee in the senate, released with their calling an interim report. it's a staff report that's about 50 pages long. they release that alongside about 900 pages, of documents and transcripts, that have turned up in their investigation so far into the justice department getting involved in efforts by former president trump to overturn the
results of the presidential election. to stay in power despite him losing the election. that's with the judiciary committee is investigating, this preliminary report tells us, a lot of alarming things, that we did not know before, about how the justice department ended up right in the middle of all of this stuff. some ways unwitting in some ways winning. some of what emerges really is just remarkable. this guy jeff clark, who is given be jay's cell phone number, and he's told he's gonna, kawhi is going to call me? his name is jeffrey clark, relatively unknown justice department official. he served as the head of the environmental division, and then they made him active head of the civil division for a short time. we now know, in detail, that he really does appear to have launched a plot with trump, in which they were going to have the justice department, asserts that there were ongoing serious investigations, into serious
allegations, serious and credible allegations of election fraud in georgia and other states that biden won. the plan was, that, the united states justice department, would send a scary letter, to republican-led state legislatures, in each of these states that biden won, the letter would tell the legislatures that there were serious matters under investigation, by the justice department, and it would tell the legislatures that they could come back into session, into special session or emergency session, and they should appoint new electors. in each of those states. even though biden won each of those states, in the biden electors, we're about to be dewey unseated. think about that. the justice department, the u.s. justice department, would effectively tell republican legislatures in that state, the biden victory appeared to be a sham. it appeared to be a crime, the justice department was on the case. and those republican led legislature should consider
disregarding the election results, instead do what they needed to do to declare trump the winner. or at least to not declare biden the winner. do itching need to do. justice department will back you up. now, that's that's bat bleep crazy. as mr. pack said, you can imagine how it would work. if they sent that letter to even one state, and the republican legislature acted on it, it would then spread to others, and all the republican legislatures and all the other states would all do the same. even if it didn't work, in multiple states, just having this kind of assertion from the justice department, related to multiple states that biden, one that presumably would've been enough to give vice president mike pence some pretext or justification for not accepting, or delaying the acceptance of the election results, from those affected, states which is something we know mike pence and then his counsel looked into in detail, ahead of
january six. of the certification of the election. that letter to georgia, which apparently, was first drafted to georgia, but they attempted to send it to multiple states that biden won, that letter was not theoretical, it was drafted, it exists, and we have. it and here's this guy at the justice department, head of the environmental division, in the civil division, jeff clark is saying, let's send out this letter to georgia. it should be signed by the attorney general, by the deputy attorney general let's get this out there. let's do it fast. this was a scheme with trump. in today's report, from the senate judiciary committee, we learned, that the attorney general at the time, was told by jeff clark, that if he did sign on to that crazy letter to georgia, then he could stay on as attorney general. he was told that if he did not sign on to it, he would be taken, out he would be replaced as attorney general, by jeff clark. by the guy who wrote the georgia letter, the guy who concocted in pursue this whole
scheme with trump. hey jeffrey rosen, attorney general at the end of the trump administration, you sign on to this letter are going to send it out to these republican controlled state legislators to overturn the election results, and if you don't sign on to it, you are going to be fired as attorney general, and replaced by a guy who will do it instead. that's where jeffrey rosen was. told the deputy attorney general its time was rich donahue, in his interview, with the investigation and the senate judiciary committee, his interview also unsealed today, he explains what it was like to talk to trump about this scheme. about this plot, at the white house, in a meeting, on january 3rd, just three days before the u.s. capitol attack. he says quote, when i came in, sitting in the oval office was the president, behind the, desk then there was the white house counsel, pat film in his deputy, jeff rosen the attorney general, jeff clark the guy who's planning with trump, steve angle, and myself.
i set directly in front of the president with jeff rosen, the attorney general to my right. and jeff clark to my left, he says, quote it was a wide ranging conversation about the justice department, the focus of it was whether the president should replace leadership. whether he should return to -- jeff clark in his ten is acting a journey general. there was no discussions about the letter. in the letter in georgia. at that, point it was difficult to separate the issue of the letter. and jeff clark being in the leadership position, it was very, clear any stated it repeatedly, that if president trump made geoff clark the acting attorney general, clark would send that letter, on behalf of the justice department. so it wasn't as if there was a third option, or jeff clark would become the attorney general in the letter would not go. they were sort of won in the same at that point. he said quote, essentially everyone in the room, again the president was making decisions, taking advice from different sides, here but jeff clark, was advocating for geoff clark to be attorney general.
everyone else in the room was adamantly opposed to the president taking that step. he says, quote we went around the room for hours, discussing it. telling the president why this was a terrible idea. the president would say things like, well why have to lose. what would i lose at this point if i put jeff clark in. i said sir, you have a great deal to lose. and then we went around and discussed about the downside of doing. this we discussed whether jeff clark was even qualified to serve as attorney general, we informed president trump that he should expect mass resignations in the department if he did this. at one point, the president said, so suppose i do this. suppose i take him out. meaning attorney general, rosen and i put him in, meaning jeff clark. what do you do? i said sir i would resign immediately. and then he turned to steve angle, and said steve you would not resign would? you and steve said absolutely i would mister president. you leave me no choice. and i said, well, steve's not the only one's, or all of your assistance attorney general will resign. you should count on, that they are going to resign. in these are your people. these are not bureaucrats left
over from another administration, these are your handpicked people, your leadership in the department. this is the team you sent to the senate, you've got, confirmed they're all going to walk away. on you. all at once. what does that say about you as a leader? what does that say about the department of what's going on here. and you should not think it will end, there because i don't have any idea with the u.s. attorneys will do. the u.s. returnees may resign and mass. you may have other department personnel are designed, you can have a situation here within 24 hours where you have hundreds of people resigning from the justice department. is that good for anyone? is it good for the department, the country, is it good for you? quote it's not. meaning it's not good for you mister president. this is dramatic stuff. president in the oval office, has a guy sitting in front of, him geoff clark, who's willing to do it. hatched this scheme with president trump, to do it. he's drafted the letter. he's already asked for the other officials signatures on, and threatened the attorney
general, if you don't sign, it you'll not be attorney general anymore, i'll be attorney general. and then i'll sign it. they're gonna tell republicans, in the state legislatures where biden won, that the justice department is treating the election as a crime scene. that should essentially throw out the results, take steps to just keep trump in office. this guy is willing to do it. and trump, is very willing to put him in charge of the justice department, so he can carry out that plan. what stops it is that everybody else in the justice department says though quit. they make a stink. and that will be bad. that's what stops it. it's dramatic stuff. these justice department officials, and we now know, apparently white house counsel, the deputy as, well all threatening to resign under the circumstance, definitely makes them the start of their own movie here. makes them seem like they really saved us, here's the problem. here's the problem not just for them being cast is heroes in
their own telling of the movie. here's the problem for the u.s. justice department on its own, terms and today. here's the problem that is just landed in attorney general merrick garland's lap. the problem is, that before in the end, they finally all offered to quit to stop this plot, before they did that, a bunch of them helped in the plot. they then just passively observe that this is what trump wanted, and this is what trump was pursuing, this was how trump wanted to use the u.s. justice department. they helped him use the justice department, to advance this plot up to a point. richard donahue, the deputy attorney general, telling trump, it'll be bad for, you it'll be bad for the, country will acquit. looks like a great story the movie at that point. before that, we know, he took trump's bat bleep theories about voter fraud. stealing the election in multiple states, and he sent those trump nanograms to the
u.s. attorneys in michigan and in pennsylvania. me and pennsylvania, in the united states justice department. told u.s. attorneys in michigan and pennsylvania, that the justice department resources should be used to check it. out to go try to substantiate it to substance these non claims that were coming from the white house. these claims about voter fraud in michigan in pennsylvania didn't bubble up from local law enforcement efforts in michigan in pennsylvania. and that's how they got to the u.s. attorney's office there, no these u.s. attorneys got calls from maine justice in d.c., the number two official in the united states department of justice, a trump appointed deputy in his official capacity, telling -- that president trump was using to cast doubt the election, and yes, in the end, he threatened to quit if trump went ahead with this one crazy scheme, involving jeff clark in the letter to georgia sure, but, leading up to, that he helped
trump use the justice department, and federal prosecutors office, offices, to pursue these claims, and it wasn't just donahue. today we have learned, that former attorney general william barr, who's received all this positive attention for his public at churn that there wasn't any significant -- great glad you said it. but what did he actually do when he was in office is attorney general? he personally waited, and in fact told at least one u.s. attorney, that he needed to investigate. that attorney general william barr, had information that he needed to investigate, he got it from rudy giuliani. and that that u.s. attorney should make it a top priority to go investigate rudy giuliani's made up bananagrams bat bleep claims, about voter fraud, the same claims that trump was using at that moment, to try to get the election overthrown. barr did it to. this is from be jay's testimony, just unsealed. today he says quote, on december 4th. there were news reports that
came out relating to a georgia state senate hearing on election regularity's mr. giuliani came down to the -- he described is a suitcase full of ballots being run in the elections. he called it a smoking gun of election fraud. the morning after, i had a conversation with the attorney general at the time, attorney general bill barr, attorney general barr asked me if i had seen the news about this allegation of this suitcase full of ballots, and i said i did hear about that. and then attorney general barr said, you know, he had an upcoming meeting with the white house, meaning he, bill barr, had an upcoming meeting with the white house, given the fact that he had made his public statement two days before that there was no widespread fraud in the election, he thought this videotape from georgia, might come up during the discussion at the white house. so, he asked me to make it a priority, to find out more
details about the allegation made by mr. giuliani, he asked me to make it a top priority, so i said i would be certain to do that. question, outside of the election fraud contest, prior to the 2020 election season would you say that officials from main justice are often alerted about crimes? it's not, often it's not every day that the attorney general call. in terms of the actual allegations coming down from the attorney generals office, snow that's rare. question, okay, you're in the u.s. attorney for the northern district of georgia during the state's previous election, the 2018 election, correct? answer that's correct. during that election to your car officials from maine justice alerting your office to allegations of election fraud that should be investigated? answer no. now. it's not normal for the attorney general of the united states to call out a federal
prosecutor to tell him personally and directly, here's what you're going to investigate making your top priority i'm giving you these allegations that i want to become your first priority as the investigator. that's why bill barr did to -- yesteryear the attorney general me to make my first priority, of course i. will he used it to go start investigating those things. pak goes on to say that as far as he, knew he thought these stuff in georgia, it was not a substances matter and should not be investigated. bill barr overruled that concern, and said no, i'm telling you personally to do it anyway. i'm telling you personally as attorney general, directly on the phone, that i need you to look into this as your top priority, then i'm gonna go to the white house with a.
. so, one of the surprise revelations, in this report, just released today by the senate judiciary committee. what they were investigated was, what was the justice department's role and trump trying to seize, power even though he tried to stay in power after he lost the election. at the committee, basin when it's found already, they asked the d.c. bar to open a disciplinary investigation, into the behavior of jeff clark. even what he did as a lawyer, what he did with his justice department role in that scheme with trump. there's an interesting question i, think as to what jeff clark did, maybe criminally prosecutable, as well, and his law license may be on line if the barr investigation is not go well. whether or not there's a potential crime, here something for which he could be prosecuted, the committee said today that it's not yet willing to pronounce just judgment on criminal matters.
i feel like the thing that's missing from the analysis in this, today in all the revelations here, is that disturbing facts, the now disturbing timeline we have, about other senior justice department officials, including attorney general william barr, using the powers of the justice department, in an irregular out of chain of command kind of way, to get the justice department to bolster trump's made-up claims about fraud. has made up claims that he was using to try to stay in office. all the attention is on the fact of the end of the day, senior justice department officials there were not gonna go that far, you'll have to fire us rory zein in mass if you go that far. but all along the way, all of this stuff fed from rudy giuliani from, the fever swamps. from the qanon conspiracy theory reddit groups or whatever else they are. wherever else they got this stuff, it flowed into the trump white house, it flowed from the trump white house to the justice department, and senior officials told federal
prosecutors around the country, use the resources of your office to go chase this down. it's not the way the u.s. justice department is supposed to work. so now, now that we know the justice department did work that way under trump, what's the justice department going to do about? what is the justice department do with this new knowledge. that senior officials, up to the very highest levels of the department, attorney general, deputy general, they tried to use the department to do those kinds of fazed for trump, as trump was trying to fudge the election results and stay. empower what is you at the senior level of the justice department, use the powers of the justice department for that purpose. you can't be that you just get to leave and move on in the next person holds that job gets to, what try to get it? what is the justice department going to do here? how is the justice department clean up after this mess? i don't know what's going to happen ultimately to trump ear or to jeff clark here. but what is the justice department going to do about
the way it was used? joining us now is rhode island senator, member of the committee, sheldon whitehouse, he said it in some of the testimony used to builders report. i should tell you that senator whitehouse is also a former prosecutor, and served as u.s. attorney rhode island. he was also the states attorney general, uniquely qualified to comment on this matter. senator it's a pleasure to see you tonight. thanks for being. her >> thanks for having me on. so this is a lot of material. it's about a 50-page staff, reported several hundred pages worth of transcripts in, several hundred pages worth of exhibits. what do you think the public should understand is the most important thing that you and your colleagues have found this far? >> i think there's three really key takeaways from. this first it's a very simple one, and that's how deeply, personally involved, president trump, was in all of this. meetings, in phone calls, and contacts. oval office. he was neck deep in this personally. so that would be 0.1. 0.2 would be how much of this
scheme, focused on georgia. the letter was about georgia. the schemes to maneuver u.s. attorney b.j. pak out of georgia, obviously about georgia. and that investigative cheerios, the fulton county da, is pulling together to look at trump's efforts to subvert the election, in georgia. so it ties together, into what could be a very interesting case, in the fulton county da's office. and the last is. it's a pair in the transcript, and in the statements, that it was even more important if you are in the room, more evident if you are in the room, with district attorney general, rosen, these guys did not have much respect for jeffrey clark. this guy was kind of a nobody. he'd been put into run the environment division for trump,
which obviously meant he was supposed to do nothing. because a vacancies at the end of the term, he was only acting civil division chief. and, it's a little hard to imagine, that he took this up on his own. or that he would tangle with rosen and donahue like this on his own. and he landed mighty quickly, in the shop called the new civil liberties alliance. i don't know who's paying him to be there. but i think there's a bigger story, about what's behind this scheme. one school of thought is this is an ambitious, nobody saw this moment. took a shot at it. and got shot down by his peers. but equally plausible scenario, is that this guy was put up to it, that someone drafted that complex letter involving areas of line which he had no expertise, for him to produce and looking behind what's took place the department of justice, i think this is why this is only an interim report. we need to keep looking at
those other elements. >> am i right senator, that mr. clark has refused requests to be interviewed thus far? he, obviously there's no transcript of an interview has been released with him today. the committee is still presumably seeking his cooperation, his testimony. as well as all the white house documents you're not able to get thus far from the national archive. >> i don't know what i'm allowed to say about that, under the committee rules right now. so i should probably just kind of not answer that question. sorry. >> that's a good question. sorry. >> he's an essential person in this. saga and obviously a person of interest. at some point in the committee, before a grand jury, someplace, his testimony is going to be obtained. >> let me just ask you senator, there's a lot of focus on mr. clark and what he did. and it was kind of a shocking revelation today in the materials came out that there has been a referral by the committee to the d.c. bar, to
look into mr. clark. and whether he should potentially be disciplined as a lawyer for what he did here. i vote as explains in the intro, am struck by the fact that there are other senior justice department officials, who are very willing to use the resources of the department, to jump down these rabbit, holes on trump's behalf. up to and including the deputy intern general mr. donahue and the attorney general mr. barr. all of whom told u.s. attorneys to chase this stuff down. is that a problem for the justice department, in an ongoing way? is that a prime matter for the inspector general? is that a matter for referral the bar associations? >> possibly. it's not all that clear. to the extent that what they were doing was running down allegations of violations to federal law. then that's with the department of justice is there for. to the extent that it would be obvious to any person, these were cockamamie allegations, to
pursue them beyond the point that they were credible, begins to take you outside of the scope of the protection of doing legitimate law enforcing investigations. in any event, there's a lot of department of justice policies about what you do when, when you are closing in on an investigation. when you're in that sensitive period, around the elections, around the count. and i suspect they were pretty sloppy about all of this. and of course, last of all, there's the long-standing rules we've talked about before. about contacts between the department of justice and the white house. and it appears a lot of this mischief might well have been done outside of the rules, that allow contacts between the white house and the department of justice. there's plenty of -- for the ig and office of professional responsibility to look at. and even if the people have moved on, they can still make a report to see what preventative measures should be put into the departments so this kind of stuff can't happen again. >> that's exactly.
right the u.s. justice department, can never be used in this way again, the question is how we, in sure how do we have -- to make sure it doesn't happen. >> this is an attempted coup daytime within the department of justice. against the attorney general. and it seems unlikely, that this character jeffrey clark came up with this on his own. >> fascinating. senator sheldon whitehouse, -- senator, thanks reading with us tonight. much appreciated. >> okay we have much more ahead to get to. stay with. usch more ahea to get to. stay with. stay with. us, but we need to go higher. (man 1) higher. (man 2) definitely higher. (man 1) we're like yodeling high. [yodeling] yo-de-le-he... (man 2) hey, no. uh-uh, don't do that. (man 1) we should go even higher! (man 2) yeah, let's do it. (both) woah! (man 2) i'm good. (man 1) me, too. (man 2) mm-hm. (vo) adventure has a new look. (man 1) let's go lower. (man 2) lower, that sounds good. (vo) discover more in the all-new subaru outback wilderness.
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go online to transfer your services in about a minute. it was late january, when the get started today. new york times dropped this, from justice department reporter katie bennett. the headline, is trump and justice department lawyer said to applauded two outs acting attorney general. that initial report in the times, in january. prompted an eight month investigation about the judiciary committee in the senate, into trump's efforts to
overturn the 2020 election results. and his efforts to use the justice department as a tool for doing so. that investigation produced today's jaw-dropping report, and hundreds of pages of supporting material, a report that found that the justice department was both used as a tool in trump's attempted, coup and was ultimately a force to stop it. the news of that report was broken naturally late last, night by katie. better new york times justice report -- cents before day one. miss benner, thank you again for making time to be here and understand this reporting. it remains one of the most amazing stories of her time. >> thanks for having me. >> in terms of this internal report, by the judiciary committee, how far along should we see that in terms of what they're trying to figure out? what materials they want access to? and what they still want to get? >> not really a sports person, from what i know about baseball,
i would say we're in the third or fourth inning. they still really want to speak with jeff clark for example. who is someone who's not responded to any of their requests. as you can see from this report, we have a really full picture of what the experience was like on the justice department side, how they felt getting these requests from the white house, to help up and the results of the election. but what's their testimony, their notes, their extensive handwritten notes, emails and other documents, show is that they were never quite sure what was going on at the white house. they were never quite sure exactly who was coming up with what. it fell to them like scheme after scheme, plot after plot, two up in the election. they had excess -- scott perry of pennsylvania. they had a sense that he asked jeffrey clark, to come to the white house, to help with legal issues, and to be a voice from the justice department. but they were never really sure, exactly what was going on. i think the committee will have
to stir it interviewing other witnesses. including witnesses from the white house side, to get a complete picture. >> we just spoke with sheldon who's on the committee in the raise the progression of suspect, that jeff clark was so in the bull's-eye of this report, and who has been referred from potential discipline to the d.c. bar, because of what the committee has discovered about him thus far. senator whitehouse just raised the prospect that mr. clark, might not have been sort of intellectually up to the task, that he was trying to pull off, here that he might have been put up to, it that it was an area of law he didn't know anything about, that he may have been essentially a vessel for other people who were trying to use him, and his position, to get this done. does that resonate at all with what you have reported thus far in the story? >> you've certainly get that sense if you read the transcripts, from former acting attorney jeffrey rosen, and his deputy rich donahue.
you get the sense that they were always wondering, is there somebody behind jeff clark. they would have these conversations with him, and then come back wondering, who who is helping him, in these efforts. where these legal theories coming from? certainly that is the sense you get. >> wow. in terms of what is likely to happen next, year am also struck katie, by the fact that there seems to be pretty good documentation of how senior justice department officials, did try to help trump and when he was doing. beyond clark. there was william barr for example. not only personally telling u.s. attorneys to make it their first priority, to investigate some of these outlandish claims. but telling the fbi, to interview specific witnesses. attorney general, deputy attorney general richard donahue getting involved personally to try to push this stuff out to prosecutors offices. it will that be seen is a problem in the justice department going forward? >> i think that there are certainly calls by former justice department employees in some career employees that is
one reason to do a full top to bottom review about what happened in the justice department during the trump era, is to figure out how to stop this from happening again. so far, mayor garland has rejected that idea. he doesn't seem on board with that kind of review. but we did see is the sense of the frog being boiled, slowly boiled alive. i only report on legal matters. but again, from these interviews, you could really sort of see a situation, where employees and top officials, at the justice department. we're thinking to themselves, i will just do this one more thing. i will just comply with this request for an investigation. just so i can say that we didn't and check the box and get him off my back. without really understanding how that would encourage, him and embed him. how that would create a psychological roadmap by which he creates he can push the justice department further, and further, and further in these investigations. do not just do that, but suddenly publicly announce in a way, that would undermine
results of the investigation, undermine the credible-ness of the election, and impaired mike russi. you get to a point where only the most extreme things, can force officials to act. >> katie benner, new york times justice department reporter, again who has led the country before day one in terms of breaking the story. thank you for your time tonight. as you say third or fourth inning in a long way to go. but this is a fascinating thing. >> thank you. thanks for having. >> we have much more to come tonight, stay with. us much more to come tonight, stay with us
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no, five9. as in five9 intelligent cloud contact center. they won't just power our transformation. they'll fund our transformation. yes, yes! exactly! what are you waiting for? ♪ ♪ (music) what are you ♪ i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ any day now we're expecting the facebook whistleblower, the four near senior facebook employee as the came forward as a whistleblower, expecting her to meet with the committee that's investigating the january 6th attack on the u.s. capital. this was first reported by cnn, what's relevant here, is that part of what france's testified to congress this week, is that facebook, has pretty effective
technical ways, to limit the use of facebook for inciting violence, and the circulation of deliberate and inflammatory disinformation. she testified that in fact, facebook use those technical limits, they put those technical limits in place, to immediately lead up to the 2020, election to good effect. but then, according to her testimony, and according to internal company documents. she took with her when she left the company, she says facebook decided soon after the election that it no longer wanted to keep those safety rules in place. it was costing them too much money, so they stopped the security measures, just after the election. in frances haugen says that decision by facebook, says it materially contributed to the planning an organization of the mob violence, that took place at the u.s. capitol that trump supporters launched on congress and january, six facebook has denied her allegations, they pushed back against her. even though she's been able to
produce company documents to bolster your claims. again, very interesting development. she is expected to meet soon with investigators from the january six committee, they've said they're looking into how the organizing of the january 6th attack came together, how the money flowed behind it. so that's a very provocative set of questions there. on that january six committee, today is the deadline for four senior members of the trump administration, to hand over documents, to that committee. by midnight tonight, january six committee sent subpoenas for documents and records, to trump's one-time chief strategist steve bannon, it is mark meadows, it is social media guidance to be, and kash patel, making scary gaga is on the picture on the right side of the screen. here he's the loyalist guy that president trump randomly installed at a top pentagon post, in his final weeks in office. even though he appears to have had no relevance qualifications, this, four, has until midnight
tonight to comply with those subpoenas. it doesn't appear there going, to politico.com was first to report today, that trump set all four of these guys a letter, telling them not to comply with the subpoenas. and not to sit for depositions next week. the january six committees chairman bennie thompson, as there and anybody who doesn't comply, we'll get a criminal contempt referral to the justice department. the stakes are high and rising here. watch this space. h this space h this space hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ wondering what actually goes into your multi-vitamin. at new chapter. its innovation organic ingredients
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tonight, the u.s. senate voted to allow democrats to raise the debt ceiling for a few more weeks. whereupon, yes, we will get to do this all over again. 11 republicans joined with democrats to allow the votes to happen. but, then when the vote actually happens, no republicans voted with democrats to do it. so there's a 60 vote threshold
to allow democrats to do it. so they're -- then when it in time to actually take the vote and raise the debt ceiling, it was democrats all the way. why are we doing? this you might remember that a few weeks ago, republicans were threatening, not one but two completely unnecessary self inflicted crises. hitting the debt ceiling, and also forcing the u.s. into a government sub down. well, those things have been averted, for now. last week democrats reached a deal with to delay the shutdown till december 3rd, now tonight they've reached a deal still lay the debt ceiling crashing tall, also, early december. which means december is going to be a nightmare, on purpose. it also means that democrats are going to figure out a way to pass biden's agenda, the big reconciliation bill, that you've got about eight weeks, before both of those crises come crashing back down at the same time. stopping.
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it for us tonight and this fine friday eve. it doesn't mean that tonight is friday evening. it means that's the eve of friday. see you again tomorrow. now it's time for the last word with lawrence are. diurnal good evening. lawrence >> stone trying to confuse me with that, rachel it gets me every time. i've got my, my huge subverting justice report, by the democratic staff, of the senate judiciary committee. yeah, i saw, you have a color printer. i don't. >> i do. i invested. >> i'm wicked impressed by the. there's another report that came out, another report came out today.
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