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tv   Deadline White House  MSNBC  October 14, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT

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hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a day that will determine the future the january 6th committee is here. at least one of the first four subpoenas the committee has issued is officially being ignored and the first criminal contempt referral is officially being put into motion. they will refer steve bannon for criminal contempt after receiving a letter from his attorney that he will not comply before the 1/6 committee. bennie thompson says the committee will meet on tuesday to discuss adopting a contempt report.
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he has been hiding behind the former president's insufficient and vague statements regarding privileges he purported to invoke. we reject his position entirely. he adds, the select committee will use every tool in its disposal to get the information it seeks. and witnesses who try to stonewall the select committee will not succeed. it is worth noting that expentagon official and trump adviser cash patel, former chief of staff mark meadows and his deputy dan scavino were also set to appear today and tomorrow. their testimony has been delayed by the committee. but committee's action against bannon today backing up assurances from its members in recent days that they are going to go the distance in pursuing exact will you how donald trump came to gather the insurrectionists in washington, d.c., dispatch the insurrectionists to the capitol, then lavish them with praise and declare his love for them in a
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way that guaranteed the conduct of that day would become our nation's new normal. it follows news overnight that jeffrey rosen testified in person before the committee for more than eight hours yesterday. jeffrey rosen, who was the target of trump's pressure campaign the declare the results of the 2020 election corrupt. the rosen has also provided testimony to the senate judiciary committee about trump's mindset when the three conditions according to the times who quote testified that trump was not seeking legal advice but strong arming them to violate their oaths of office, undermine the results of the election and subvert the constitution. in a culmination of trump's pressure campaign, rosen was nearly replaced by trump loyalist jeffrey clark who trump apparently deemed more willing to do his bidding. of course last night, on the same day as rosen's in-person eight-hour testimony clark, too, was slapped with a subpoena by the january 6 committee.
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quote, the select committee needs to understand all the details about efforts inside the previous administration to delay the certification of the 2020 election and amplify misinformation about the election results. we need to understand mr. clark's role in these efforts at the justice department and learn who was involved across the administration. and that is where we start today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. matt miller is back. also joining us, congresswoman stacey plaskett. she represent sense the u.s. virgin islands and served as a house impeachment manager during donald trump's second impeachment trial. and john heilemann is here host and executive producer of showtime's "the circus". welcome all. congresswoman, i start with you. your reaction to the developments and the message that the 1/6 committee has sent? >> well, i think this is great
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developments. i think it's show that this committee is serious about utilizing the powers that congress has to get to the bottom of what happened on september -- january 6th. and to ensure that it doesn't happen again. whether that is through depositions, through hearings, through subpoenas, sifting through the millions of pieces of evidence that are available, whether that's from social media, the justice department, or the white house itself. >> congresswoman, do you understand what bannon is even trying to exert? i mean there is no privilege for an expresident. there is even less for an expresident's aide who was fired in 2017. what is he trying to argue? >> i think what he is trying to do is to delay. and he's trying to show that he's being loyal to donald trump. that's about all. because there is absolutely no legal basis for him being able to exert an executive privilege. we've seen that president biden
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has -- is the individual who is able to exert executive privilege, and he has stated that he will fully comply with the select committee. additionally, as you stated of course nicole, he was not even employed by the president -- the former president at the time of january 6th or its planning. so whatever conversation he had could not have been as an employee or part of the executive branch. he's -- >> congress -- yes. i'm sorry. >> he is reaching. >> congresswoman, i think about the case that was presented to the united states senate in that bipartisan vote to impeach trump and the bipartisan vote to convict donald trump that of course came up short but was the most bipartisan vote in our country's history. i often wonder what you and the other managers think when you see some of this testimony being shaken loose. the eight hours of mr. rosen appearing before the senate judiciary committee now before the 1/6 committee.
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what do you think when you see the pieces of the puzzle start to fall in place? >> i think it shows that the foundation and the facts which we presented to the senate during the trial were, in fact, corroborated now. by clear and convincing evidence. that the american people are going to see. and as we -- the select committee continues to to the amazing job, the stellar job that it's doing under the leadership of bennie thompson, the american people are going understand not just the extent of what happened on that day, but the extent to which the president, our president, tried to thwart and end our democracy. >> mat miller, you were here at this hour yesterday making strong arguments for precisely what the committee has gone ahead to do. talk about the importance and the significance of drawing this line in the sand with the criminal contempt referrals. >> you know, i think you can see the significance of it in the way some of the other witnesses
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are behaving. i think it is pretty significant that cash patel and mark meadows are actually apparently negotiating with the committee and at least so far not just granting former president trump's blanket request or blanket instructions that they not come forward and testify. cash patel is as bad an actor as you can find in some of the administration which is saying something, showed up in some of the worst performances in the four years. but both he and mark meadows are negotiating with the committee potentially to provide testify. it may break down and they aye may fine themselves in the same position as steve bannon. what that tells me is some of the witnesses, these two and potentially others down road are looking at what is happening to bannon and saying i don't want to go down that road. there are a lot of people willing to stiff arm the department of justice and the congressional committee.
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but when they throw criminal charges at you, it has a way of focussing the mine and putting the fear of god in the mind of people that congressional committees don't. that's why it is important that the committee hold the line and so important that the justice department when they get the referrals that very investigate them quickly and bring people up on charges. because for this committee to be able to get to the bottom of this with these witnesses and others the witnesses need to know there will be consequences for denying these lawful subpoenas. >> there is no pardon on the line here. if steve bannon is held in criminal contempt he will have to face the consequences without a literally get out of jail free card from donald trump. >> well, right, nicole. i think the question is, for steve bannon, is there -- i agree with the congresswoman. if you are analyzing this in a legal sense, there is no logic
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to what he's doing. i think in a political sense that you have to understand the broader picture of what the president is trying to do right now, which is to transform 1/6 into a day of infamiliary of a different kinds. the rest's out telling his followers that the election was stolen from him, that january 6th was not an insurrection. it was a rightful protest, these are patriots who stormed the capitol. they are now political prisoners, ashley is a political martyr. it makes a certain kind of sense what bannon is doing, if you accept that that is what this is about. there is a lot of people paying attention who see the risks and the damagers involved in that, who see what the long game is here, heading into 2022 and 2024 where the president is trying to generate a kind of very scary energy around all of those causes.
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i think that steve bannon and the president -- i think steve bannon, as integral to the president's plans going forward towards 2022 and 2024, setting up the possibility of a second coup -- i think he's as integral the those as he was in getting him elected in 2016. there is a logic to this. it doesn't make sense to normal people, sane people, people who care about the law or care about congress or care about the future of democracy but it makes sense to steve bannon and donald trump. >> let me push back respectively, if these your world view, why not seize the spotlight. donald trump watches thog but cable tv. why not demand to testify in a public hearing? >> well, i think, nicole you are suggesting there is a false binary there. steve bannon could go charged, could go to jail, then agree to testify. he could get the best of both worlds. steve bannon, jalds for the cause, willing to put his body
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on the line. and then eventually agree, fine, i will testify after he spent a night or a week in jail or paid a fine that somebody else will pay for him. he never pace for anything out of his own pocket. then he goes forward and gets the limelight. i think that's what we will see. he is not going to rot in jail but he will spend time and generate controversy that trump will be able to use to his benefit as painting owl of his followers as political prisoners, people suffering for the right of what happened on january 6th. >> it would be funny if it wasn't so six. congresswoman, i want to ask you as someone who has prosecuted a case, had these facts stipulated, enema of them corroborated. you now have more corroborating witnesses. talk about each witness and their importance to what john heilemann is talking about, a
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very detailed, specific coup plot that was on paper, all the actors who knew their roles, and donald trump, who pulled it all together. >> well, i think that as we are going to see the plot is -- as they say, the plot thickens. >> right. >> but i think what they are going to see is the story line is going to become very clear to individuals. the fact that rosen spent that much time testifying meant of course that individuals who are doing the depositions, the tremendous staff attorneys who are working on the select committee, were really digging into some very specific facts with him. as you can recall, even before these individuals came as witnesses, there was a hubbub about the select committee getting social media, rightings information. they are also requesting information from members of congress, individuals who may have information as to what happened in the lean-up to january 6th and on that fateful day, which actually will show that the president knew and
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intended what was going to happen did happen. and so i think that these testimonies, whether they are from the justice department, white house officials, or even members of congress, along with the evidence that supports or even contradicts the testimony that they give is one that i think will lead the american people to believe not only the facts as we presented them at the trial but to ensure an informed select committee in making recommendations. i have to say that i completely agree with john heilemann with regard to steve bannon's role. i think that that's absolutely what the president would love to happen. and i could never disagree with anybody who has would you tang in the backgrounds of their room. >> then you have an alliance for life with john heilemann. john, i will let you pick it up from there. we can't let that not become a one-two punch here. to the point the congresswoman is making, here's what we already know that mr. rosen has
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testified to. these are the notes that his deputy mr. donahue has produced to the senate judiciary committee. quote, this is donald trump, just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and to my congressional allies, mr. donahue wrote in summarizing mr. trump's respond. donahue was rosen's deputy. rosen was reportedly present for the conversation that the notes were taken of and for. do you think that the rosen testimony succeeds more subpoenas. we know who they are? they have been named in the report. do you think that's the next phase here. >> first of all, congresswoman, it is all for the children. would you tang is all for the children. thank you for being an ally on that front. war all for the children. nicole, i totally agree with matt miller that this is a good
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sign. i have been watching this committee and grading it along the i watch. how serious are they? how far are they willing to go? how tough are they willing to be? they can't relent. they must get the answers. so far they continue to drive and do the right things including in this week with these criminal referrals. i think this will be another test n. a world where you are pursuing this case to the ends of the earth, understanding how important it is, understanding how crucial it is to the future of the country that we get to the bottom, every detail, that we get to the bottom of how 1/6 happened and donald trump's role in it, the next step is exactly what you just laid out. the question is -- again, i am going to keep holding the committee's feet to the fire. is this just the first of -- is this one criminal referral to look tough? or is this the beginning of a series of criminal referrals with anyone who pushes back on a subpoena? are they going to pursue every lead? do they have the kind of speed and focus and intensity to really do all these things? i am not saying i doubt it, but the jury is out.
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so we'll see. but i think it is a natural thing after this testimony yesterday. in any decent investigation, coming out of that testimony yesterday there is going to be six or seven people you should be serving subpoenas to on the basis of that. they should do it. >> liz cheney is also named. she said even before she was on the committee that kevin mccarthy should be deposited. matt mill e jeff lee clark, who was subpoenaed yesterday -- a lot of what we know about jeffrey clark we know it would appear, from mr. rosen's testimony. jeffrey clark has been subpoenaed. we though about what jeffrey clark said and did in terms of how it impacted mr. rosen. we know there was an attempt for clark the replays rosen. they walked in and threatened to quit along with members of the counsel's office. we don't know specificity how vast the conversations were
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between mr. trump and clark. >> i think it is hard for people who don't work in the justice department to understand how egregious clark's behavior was. he was out on his own conducting sort of investigations into alleged voter fraud, both of which he has no jurisdiction over and without his superiors knowing he was doing it. he was talking directly with the white house w the president, which he's not allowed to do under department of justice rules. and he was talking with at least one republican member of congress, which he's also not allowed to do under justice department rules. he was violating multiple justice department policies in an attempt to overturn the election. to your point, we only know the thing that jeffrey rosen was a witness to. we know about this january 3rd meeting a the white house, which happened because clark was proposing to send this letter to the state of georgia urging them to void their election results, and rosen protested and ended up in a meeting with the president.
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we don't know what conversations led up to clark deciding to do that. we don't know if he talked to other members of congress. was it just this guy scott perry or were mull held members of congress involved. we don't know homs he talked to the white house or directly to the president, what the president was directing him to do. which is why it is imperative he come in and testify. he has no privileges to stand on, he has no means to defy the subpoena. he needs to get out there and testify the way that rosen and other department of justice officials have done already. >> or face criminal contempt, right? >> right. yeah, exactly. >> i want to come back to you, congresswoman, with something that our friend aaron blake writes. we will never know how coast we came but continue to sort through what became of january 6th. it's worth taking stock of what a few more pieces call into
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place might have meant on the pressure points that our democracy might reveal. i want to go through three of the inflection points he named. the justice department refuses to legitimatize trump's claim. this is what matt is talking about. clark reveils in that power struggle with rosen. pence refuses to use the ceremonial role to reject state's electors. we know from the woodward/costa back pence was on the fence. maybe i will. dan quayle says no, no no. turning point number three, what the white house would have done in a gop controlled more delegations would have gone with trump's plan. i would three two more in. if republican trump surrogate governor kemp or governor ducey in arizona had blinked or flinched, and said well, if pence throws it back to us. do you wonder how close we came?
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does that keep you up at night? >> i wonder how close we came. those are incredible inflection points. but i also, having been a member of the republican party at one point in my life recognize the inflection points at which republicans did nothing that allowed the president to come to the point that gave us the january 6th. and what they were unwilling to do. and it does keep me up at night. and it does concern me. but to john heilemann's question with regard to what this committee is willing to do, i see individuals like liz cheney and adam an zinger who are operating almost as kamikaze's within the republican party to ensure our democracy stands. >> totally. >> right? or you have individuals like jamie raskin who believes that our union is -- at some point, you know, we are in an almost etiological civil war. and bennie thompson, the chairman, that a man who comes from mississippi and every day
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has dealt with the issues that face a divided country over racial issues. these are the individuals who are fighting on the front line. stephanie measurevy fee, who came here as a child from vietnam was a cia employee. those individuals are on the committee. those individuals give me hope. along with the others, that we are going to do what's necessary, as tough as we need to be to ensure that our democracy stands. >> it's a wonderful image, liz cheney and adam din zinger as kamikaze's against their own party. and it certainly gives the committee the leg to stand on that everything they did, all of it, is bipartisan. the only thing that is partisan is the republican obstruction. matt miller, congresswoman stacey plaskett. it was a pleasure to get to talk to both of you about these breaking stories. thank you. john heilemann is sticking around. >> he when we come back, the expresident leaning into his big lie about election fraud warning that if republicans don't make
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quote solving the 2020 fraud the single most important thing they do well then they shouldn't vote in upcoming elections. finally a message we are willing to amplify. did trump give democrats in virginia the same gift he gave them in georgia. plus, in one of the lawsuits trump is facing in new york we are learning he must now sit for a video deposition in connection to the famous escalator ride he took that kicked off his bid for the presidency. and state courtrooms working to uphold voter integrity to upheld our democracy and protect future elections all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.
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the first major election to take place during biden presidency is now just a few weeks away. the virginia governor's race fits a former democratic governor against a republican candidate. one glen young kin who finds himself with a tough needle to thread in an area that the former president won boy ten points. junk kin waited until he had won his primary to admit the simple truth that president joe biden was indeed elected president fair and square. now he's called for an audit of voting machines in virginia, even though there was no fraud and the state already conducted a legally mandated audit last year. hess campaign is also hoping to fire up the base with events like the one held on young kin's
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behalf last night. the "washington post" reports, he steered clear wednesday night as former president trump phoned into the rally for the state's gop ticket headlined by steve bannon. baseless election fraud conspiracies took center stage at this event which kicked off to a pledge of aleenlance to a plastic bag flag that the emcee claimed was flown before the january 6th insurrection. watch. >> she's carrying an american flag that was appeared at the -- that was carried at the peaceful rally with donald trump on january 6th. >> junk kin today distancing himself today from the rally and the pledge of allegiance that took place telling nbc i won't involve, so i don't know, if that was the case then we should not pledge allegiance to that flag. that was within hours after the expresident released a statement saying his supporters should
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stay home in 2022 and 2024 if his bogus election fraud claims aren't quote solved. joining our conversation, david plus and john heilemann. let's get to all that muck in a second. how do you see the race in virginia? >> it is going to be close. i mean, i think primarily virginia trends purple. i think young kin is trying to make himself the change account. terry m mc -- that's wher mccaliph needs mc mccaliph needs
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-- i don't think this is case the case in virginia. you have to put that content in front of irregular republican voters and say your master said don't vote ask. joe biden is still president. it did hurt him in georgia. i think it can hurt in virginia. everything has to be right for young kin to pull that off. i don't think you are looking at a margin of ten points. i think you are looking at a range of one to four points. >> let's talk about donald trump's command and response. come washington to stop the steal. you have got to come to washington. fight like hell. five people are dead. masks aren't necessary. vaccination rates, he wasn't particularly enthusiastic about vaccine mandates. opposes them. he has now used what remains of his bully pulpit to command his
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voters to sit out two cycles, to is the out 2022 and to sit out 2024, because what he's asking for will not be solved. he did not win so no manner off audits or fraudits or recounts will solve what he is looking to be solved. why? >> first of all, i mean, he's a lunatic. let's start with that. it's not -- we talked about -- he's not very smart. incompetent stupid and crazy. that's three reasons why he does stuff that's sometimes not in his own interests and not in the republican party's interest. it is complicated to think about donald trump because he does things that are insidious, that are tactical, and he does things like trying to same this coup in 2020 and the one he is trying the tee up in 2024 that are
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methodical among things that are incompetent and lunatic. he wants to instill anger among his base about this injustice he claims he suffered in 2020 and that they by extension suffered. he is frustrated by the fact he doesn't have a twitter feed and doesn't have a platform and doesn't have the press room. he doesn't have the megaphone that he had before. i wake up every day glad that we don't have to listen to donald trump on television or on twitter. i think it is one of the great blessings of the post 2020 life that we live. but i will say when he's broadcasting stuff like that, telling his voters not to vote in 2022 and 2024, i wish for one minute we could give him back twitter, just for that, because i would like his voters to hear that more clearly. >> that's why we are amplifying it today. we are yew dishes about what we do and don't amplify from his carrier pigeon what he does and does not state.
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i want to come back to this rally. young kin is betting on the trump race. yesterday's event was so bad that he distanced himself from it. let me show you what mccall live had to say about it today. >> it was a game changer. one of the saddest things. at a young kin rally hosted by steve bannon he started off by doing pledge of allegiance to a plaque nag that was up here during the january insurrection. that alone disqualified him. and he hasn't condemned that. people fought and died for democracy and these thugs come up here on january 6 and destroy, and people died, law enforcement died, and they use a flag that they want to destroy -- the flag of the simple democracy -- they were ledging allegiance to a flag they wanted to use up there to destroy our democracy. >> it has been a while since i
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have been a campaign operative. but i get that in a really tight state. i do not get the strategy on the republican side in a plus ten biden state. what is it doing? >> well, i think -- listen, i agree with john. you know, bannon, trump, these are lunatics. okay and and they are ego maniacs. it's about them. the party is secondary. young kin can distance himself. we live in a world where if you have got enough resources you can reach anybody you want to with a message. the challenge i think for democratic and mccall live and others you are going to hound away that steve bannon and donald trump are basically embracing insurrectionists, and that is not what virginia wants. i also think there's a lot you can do to maybe harm republican turnout because trump is out there saying don't vote unless i am restored into power.
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it doesn't make any sense. you see a guy like young kin having part of this because it is trying to straddle it, trying to appeal to suburban voters that drifted democratic, northern virginia but also can't annoy the base. clearly he thought this was a problem because he went out and said i wasn't there. if they were pledging allegiance to the 1/6 flag, i have a problem with that. but this is going to stick to him. that's the world we live in. these are sticky these days. and the mccall live campaign and democrats are well resourced. he said it was a turning point. i am not sure, but i think this close to election day it is certainly something that should stop young kin's momentum. >> john, david said young young kin is trying to distance himself from this rally.
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what axios said --s that part of slow motion insurrection. he is an suctionist, so he can distance himself from the flag that flew over the scene that became the final resting spot of police officers and others. but he himself was for the insurrection. >> well, let's be clear, part of the power of this moment is that the flags that were flown by the insurrectionists, some of those were used to beat police officers and try to kill them. so that makes the -- that is what the moment is about. i bet you every dollar in my pocket that young kin's attitude was as soon as he heard bannon and trump were going to be at this rally that's where his campaign drew the line, we are not going to go. this is where the distancing line will be. we are not going to go to that rally. they thought it would be enough. then the flag showed up. and the flag showed up, and the video was there. and people pledging allegiance
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to a flag, the flag of the insurrectionists, a flag just like the flags that police officers were beaten with. that was the thing that was too far. i think to david plouffe's point, can democrats make it clear when somebody is trying to straddle an issue trying to appeal to moderates and keeping the trump base energized, the question is whether democrats, mccall live's campaign and others can make him pay a price for it and point out that it is all part of the same picture. not showing up at the rally is the minimum thing you could do and that this thing with the flag should remind of all of the other things he has done to get on good side of donald trump or embracing the insurrectionists. as you said, can he make that case? the closing days of the race is this we'll see. >> one guy who can is your own boss. he is en route to campaign for
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terry mccall i have. barack obama will hit the campaign as part of an evident to boogs turnout among black voters. so will stacey abraps -- abrams. i would argue with the word rising. president obama, stacey abrams, the former first lady. the democratic party's power broker list. talk about why this is so important not just for the democratic party but for the country. david. ? first of all -- yeah, obama bom will be effective with block voters. he will also be effective with swing voters. i am sure he will have rhetorical flourish to capture with humor and also point that young kin can't have it both ways and who basically would be
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behind the throne if young kin were to wing which is the trump/bannon crazy wing that wants to destroy our democracy. it is an important race. virginia is big state. i think it makes a difference in that state whether you have a republican or democrat governor. now we can overread these elections before the others. i saw with chris christie in '09, there were hare bingers of what happened in 2010 in the republican landslide. i think you are going to learn about messaging networks with swing voters, turnout. 2022 is going to be critical for both parties, whoever is able to get an advantage there. but you have got throw everything at it to try and win this state. but i am glad to see that the star power is going this there. >> yeah. >> i think it will make a difference again not just with the base. i think it will help with the swing voters to. >> to your point i laugh because i have been on both sides of off
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year elections. when you win them you say they mean anything, a sign of things too come. when you lose you say oh, one off. nothing to see here. we will see. thank you both so much for spending time with us today. there are at least ten civil cases pending against the expresident, donald trump. now he's ordered to sit for testimony next week as one of these cases finally heads to a courtroom. that reporting is next. s next hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
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we'll never forget this moment, will we? the now device impeached expresident launched his bid for the president in 2015 ask. the speech in which he called mexican immigrants quote criminals and rapists. now the former president is being ordered to sit for a videotaped deposition on monday for a lawsuit involving his rhetoric of that day. the suit was first filed in 2015 by a group of none straightors who say they were roughed up by his security guards outside of trump tower. this deposition will be the first one since he was elected president in 2016. let's bring into our conversation deputy attorney general and u.s. attorney harry limbman. harry, i remember how enthusiastic donald trump was for roughing up protesters. he called for it, called for his supporters to rough them up. he said he liked people who were
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rough and offered to pay for their legal bills at his maga rally for anyone who roughed up pros theers. i wonder if he will say that in his deposition he will give on monday. >> he loved it. his supporters, too. it was a badge of honor for him and his supporters. it doesn't come up contactually monday. monday is the deposition about what happened here and we are going to have a california indicated of i don't know's and i don't recalls. nevertheless it is a chink in the armor. the first deposition he is ordered to sit for. it is a bronx trial court. there are others in the offing. the smerl zervos suit. it closes in december. if the judge is declined to do it. it will be by then. we have the e. jean carroll suit that the trial judge rei go nighted after it was in the sort of moth balls for a while. and of course we haveday vance who has the tax returns and who says he is leaving office at the
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end of december. so it just seems as if this is a period of some possible peril for trump. not this one exactly except he's such an inveterate liar any time he raises his right hand, it could be trouble. and this lawsuit, as you say -- you have on videotape his sort of goons roughing up the plaintiffs here and his basic take i think will be, well, that wasn't me. >> i want the read you what the judge said in 2019 when he first ordered trump to sit for this deposition. he wrote that trump's testimony is quote indispensable given his relationship to the other defendant who are described in court papers as either employees or under contract. trump's argument that there must be exceptional circumstances to depose a high-ranking government official did not apply here, she said. he is being called to answer for conduct outside the office. he's also not a government official anymore let alone high-ranking one.
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and i wonder, you know, i think there are ten civil cases pending against trump. is there a flood gate opening kinds of dynamic when, you know, a former president can sit for one deposition? do other judges see that and say that doesn't disrupt his post presidentially, whatever that. >> i think so. of course there is nothing to disrupt as you suchlgt doris gonzalez in the bronx says hey he has got to sit, every plaintiff has a right to get their discovery. there are many lawsuits, and especially the two defamation once. there he faces the question did you in fact have sex inberg door confusedman or in the place that summer zervos says? now i think he's in a fix. there will also be a appetite among some in the faed ral and state governments if he commits
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to demonstrable perjury. i think he can dance his way out of this one. but if other judges are emboldened, and i believe they will be, then he will be facing more serious sworn testimony. and i think in the next three, four months. >> it's so amazing. i mean, he displayed demonstrable perjury every single day as president. but i guess in this context that matters again. harry lemon thank you again for saying on this. parents pleading with schools to keep their kids safe and to keep their kids healthy. the attorney for one of the families who is suing a wisconsin school over lax masking and covid protocols after her son contracted covid joins us next.
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some wisconsin parents are taking action after they say their school boards failed to protect their kids from getting covid. two moms, shannon jensen and gina kildall are suing their respective school districts after their sons each tested positive for covid, parents blaming the school's inadequate policies on masks, quarantining and contact tracing. the suits are being led by a super pac and a local brewery owner. >> i got flooded by parents across the state of wisconsin who were super upset, super
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scared, and wanted and felt powerless to protect their children. if they had masks in these schools, these kids could actually get an education. the hard part was finding plaintiffs that had a thick enough skin to say that they were willing to deal with the potential fallout of trying to help all kids in wisconsin. >> joining us now, attorney frederick malms who represents the two wisconsin families suing. the science is so conclusive that masks endorse settings for our kids who aren't vaccinated, if they're younger than 12, do make the difference. they do keep them in school. they do keep them safe and healthy. just explain why this is still so hard to implement in wisconsin. >> i mean, it's a little unclear, actually. the school boards seem, i guess, politicized is sort of the real problem here is that these -- they're not really thinking about the kids so much as
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they're talking about potentially their future political goals or, i mean, appeasing a very loud minority of very political parents. so, unfortunately, the reasonable majority here has not really been heard, and we're, i mean, and all the policies being made really go, as you said, goes against the science and the recommendations of the cdc and the wisconsin department of education. or department of public instruction. >> i have spoken to pediatricians along the way, and it's stunning to me that packed pediatric icus don't break that dynamic you're describing, and i wonder what the parents' goal is that you're representing. >> the goal of the parents i'm representing is pretty simple. they want masks on every kid in wisconsin. i mean, we all know that's the safest way for these schools to move forward and that's what they should be doing. there's no ulterior motive here,
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no one's asking for money. we're exclusively asking for an injunction that would force these schools to do the right thing. >> let me read what their experience was that brought all of you together. the two moms, jensen and kildale, both sent their sons to elementary school in masks. both boys tested positive for the coronavirus. lawsuits filed this month in two wisconsin federal courts blame what they describe as the school's lax policy on masks, on quarantining, and contact tracing. explain what the two families with the two boys encountered when they went to school. >> well, they just encountered maskless classrooms and, in one of the districts, they're doing a little better job with the quarantining and isolation. in the other district, they were really doing nothing. there are some recommendations for isolation and quarantining after a positive covid test and after contact with an individual with covid, but really nothing
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more. the wakasha district, there was just truly nothing. they've done away with everything that was -- that they had last year to protect the kids. so, i mean, their experience was really just that of, you know, a lack of help and understanding from the school boards. >> and you talked about a highly politicized and charged environment around kids and around schools and around covid. i'm going to read something from the wisconsin examiner about conservatives, anti-maskers targeting school boards around the state of wisconsin. disruptions have been occurring in school districts all over wisconsin. four school board members in one district are facing recall challenges in november. a website supporting the recall drive stating that our school board seems remarkably focused on preventing a disease with little concern for their elected purpose, overseeing policies. one member resigned after he was
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targeted bay group of citizens who were angry about the board's vote to reinstate that school mask order. he received uncomfortable emails along the lines of being watched that made him feel unseas. in beaver dam, another member resigned citing safety concerns because of threats relating to his support of masks in schools. who's doing this? >> honestly, i have no idea. there are parents on both sides of the aisle that want their kids masked. this isn't, i don't think, directly a republican and democrat thing. i think there's just a very loud minority of parents that have been -- have fallen victim to the lies of some of the media about this and they feel as though their kids are being suffocated by the masks or as though this is some sort of huge civil rights violation that it just isn't. so, i really don't know who's ultimately, you know, controlling all of this. but it's not -- i don't believe it's the majority of the parents
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that want this. that hasn't sort of been my experience in dealing with people and my clients' experience in dealing with people. it's not a simple republican -- some parents are republican, some parents are democratic sort of thing. it's deeper than that, and it's a little -- frankly, more disturbing, given what you just read. >> well, we will stay on top of this. frederick melms, thank you so much for spending time with us to talk about the case. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started. k br. don't go anywhere. we're just getting started ♪ ♪ ♪
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michael myers is the essence of evil. the boogeyman... needs to die. if you track michael's victims, it's a straight line to michael's childhood home. [ screaming ] tonight my family will kill him. [ gasps ] [ screaming ] the fact is, republicans
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didn't find much fraud, really any fraud, because there wasn't much of any fraud, so what they're trying to do now is to make the voting rules harder for people to vote, particularly harder for young voters and minority voters to vote, and essentially manufacturing irregularities where they don't exist. so that they can use those made-up irregularities in 2022 or 2024 to argue that elections shouldn't be certified and therefore subverted. >> there you go, that's the plan. hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. gone are the days where republicans merely cry fraud without evidence. why? because as you heard right there, from voting rights attorney marc elias, republicans are now manufacturing those irregularities, ensuring they have something to hold on to next time they try to overturn the election result. elias writes about these efforts in his latest piece, saying members of the gop are redefining the term "fraud."
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several states, including georgia, iowa, kansas and texas have criminalized practices that were previously legal. some of these laws target voters, whereas other provisions are aimed at election workers. the result is the same. the goal of these new provisions is to manufacture fraud where none exists. it is a calculated, concerted, feverish effort that will be hard to stop without federal voting rights legislation. senate majority leader chuck schumer announcing today the senate will hold a procedure next week on the updated voting rights legislation that joe manchin negotiated with others in his party, although it still faces long odds in the senate without filibuster reform. in the meantime, we are seeing victories in the courtroom. in georgia, as the atlanta journal constitution reports, quote, a judge dismissed a lawsuit wednesday by donald trump supporters who sought to inspect absentee ballots from last year's presidential election. a decision that came a day after georgia investigators told the court they were unable to find
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any counterfeit ballots. superior court judge brian emero's ruling ended the last remaining major lawsuit over georgia's 2020 election and prevented an outside review of fulton county's 147,000 original absentee ballots. over in wisconsin, calls to end an investigation into the state's election results are mounting, though, as the former judge, who is leading the review, said he does not have a comprehensive understanding or even any understanding of how elections work and the subpoenas he issued earlier this month had glaring errors. in colorado, "the washington post" is reporting this. a colorado judge on wednesday prohibited a local official who has embraced conspiracy theories from overseeing november's election. finding she breached and neglected her duties and was, quote, untruthful when she brought in someone who was not a county employee to copy the hard drives of dominion voting system's machines. these decisions upholding the rule of law in our democracy are a big deal. but the courts cannot be the
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only guardrail we have to preserve our elections from gop-led subversion, which is why marc elias stresses we must act now. more from his piece. we are one, maybe two elections away from a constitutional crisis. in the days following the november 2020 election, trump and his allies executed a plan to subvert the election result. while they failed, republicans learned from the experience and are prepared to try, try again. the future of our democracy rests on whether those committed to free and fair elections will prepare as well. the looming constitutional crisis over our elections is where we start this hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former top sedate department official rick stengel is here. also joining us, errin haines, and our good friend, matt dowd is here, chief strategist to george w. bush's re-election campaign, now a democratic candidate for texas lieutenant governor. thanks to all of you for being with us.
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i want to start with you, errin, and marc elias's articulation of what is really happening out there, because we cover it every day, as you know. it's never clear to me that democrats understand the republican game. and the significance of what marc elias did was to sort of, you know, beam down into right-wing world where it is a malevolent, a cynical, and anti-democratic campaign but it is a rocket. 33 laws have been passed. they are barrelling ahead, as he writes, they are manufacturing ways to claim fraud because even republicans, when injected with truth serum, have to say there wasn't any. what do you make of that as a wake-up call? >> well, you know, nicole, it's just as you pointed out. it's so important to stress to your viewers this is what 21st century voter suppression looks like. it's not just working to keep
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certain people from having access to the ballot box or eliminating drop boxes, those kinds of things. it is also about, even if those people are able to jump through all those hoops, overcome all those obstacles to cast a vote, negating that vote on the other side is what feels new about republican efforts to really subvert folks from having access to the ballot, and you know, the election results, as you point out, only became more valid in places like my home state of georgia, surprise, as we sit here today, joe biden still won georgia by 12,000 votes but the big lie is only becoming bigger. we see that but that is not stopping the former president and others from continuing to tell it and that's why these piecemeal solutions are not going to be enough. and we talked earlier this week, kind of about who in the democratic party is actually still fighting to keep voters, you know, keep voters' access to the ballot safe and i had the chance to check in with senator
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raphael warnock. i talked to him about the state of play in terms of voting rights. this is one of only three black senators who came into office in this special election, that took a record turnout even as the big lie was beginning to take shape so this is hitting close to home for them and when the gop refused to debate this issue back in june, warnock was worried the conversation was veering away from things like voting rights to infrastructure. he went to chuck schumer, let him know he was not going to get on board with build back better unless he got a promise that voting rights were going to be a priority. senator joe manchin is a co-sponsor of this freedom to vote act. it's a compromise bill. they acknowledge that, but things in it like making election day a federal holiday, right, having enough drop boxes so you don't have one drop box for a whole county or a whole community, 15 days of early voting that might include -- that would also include weekends, and senator warnock is
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basically saying he's determined to go down fighting if it comes to that and to make republicans kind of say where they stand on the issue. republicans did submit a framework for an alternative proposal earlier this month but warnock is already saying it basically sounds like all corps rots and no sticks. it focus more on financial incentives and not really on enforcement but they know that the clock is ticking. you've got something like 20-something voting days left, you know, for congress, and the concern here is to get this done kind of ahead of the partisan gerrymandering that is happening in states that effort is already under way. >> errin, let me follow up with you. does senator warnock acknowledge there are no republican votes, and filibuster reform is needed if this is to pass? >> well, what he's saying is that he's letting joe manchin do his work with republicans who -- to see who may be open to this freedom to society act, being that, you know, it is a slimmed down version of the for the people act which republicans obviously were not on board with and didn't even want to discuss.
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and so i think that is the phase that we're in now. you know, trying to let senator manchin try to, you know, see if this -- if there is any bipartisanship to be had now that they are negotiating, but i mean, yeah, where he is now is telling senator schumer, let's move forward so that we can debate the issue of voting rights on the floor and make republicans really say where they stand on this issue. >> matt dowd, with all respect to senator warnock, and i mean that, i can tell him where republicans stand. they will not support this. federal voting rights legislation is only possible if the filibuster is put aside to pass it. and i asked adam schiff yesterday, who's out with a brand-new book about how democracy almost died and is still in grave peril, and it's brilliant. it's spot on. and democrats have something -- they're not without a tool to save it. they have a tool to save it. they can put aside the
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filibuster. they can pass federal voting rights legislation. i see zero sign that that's what's going to happen. >> well, you led into this by saying, is this a wake-up call? we're way past wake-up call stage, right? we're basically the fire department has been called multiple times, the house is on fire, it's burning, the fire department still hasn't responded, we're way past where we should be in this -- in the course of this, and i would like to -- a couple of things on this. this is not a theoretical argument and i would disagree with one part of marc elias's op-ed or his column that he wrote. we're already in a constitutional crisis. this is not -- it's could happen in 2022 or '24. we're in one now because we have one of the two legacy political parties who, by historical standards, was one of the ones who fought for the franchise of voting ever since abraham lincoln held the presidency throughout our history. they, the republican party, were
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responsible to a large degree why women got the right to vote in the early 1900s. they were a good deal responsible for civil rights legislation, voting rights legislation in the 1960s, the republican party. that party is gone. that party's completely gone, and it's now been consumed by this made-up fraud party in order to reduce the franchise. we've had a history with struggles and fits and starts of trying to expand universal suffrage and this is the first time in our history that somebody wants to take that universal suffrage in reverse. we haven't always been perfect on it. we've moved towards it in the course of our history. but now the republican party wants to move it in reverse. and we have to ask ourselves, why? why is that? this has real-world implications. this isn't a theoretical argument about democracy and norms and don't we need them and don't we not. this has real-world effects and real-world harms. when we're in the midst, basically, of a tyranny of the minority in places like texas and in other places, where
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basically people that hold the minority amount of votes basically run the majority of the state, because all of the things they're doing in these given states are highly unpopular. about guns, about choice, about voting, about all the different things they're doing have complete practical consequences, and so when we move from, yes, our democracy is in peril and yes we ought to all fight it, but we also ought to recognize the real-world harm that is occurring as this occurs across the country and this occurs state after state after state, including the central part of this fight, in my view, is in the lone star state here in texas. but we're way past this thing, and i still don't understand and i would like to encourage fellow democrats to understand, bipartisanship is a process. it's not an end. bipartisanship is a process to get to the good. when bipartisanship no longer works because you no longer have a trusted ally, you have to let go bipartisanship and get to the
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good and using the filibuster now as some way to say we're going to preserve by democracy, by using the filibuster, when in reality, by preserving the filibuster, we're ignoring a majority rule, which wants these things, and we're hurting our democracy in the course of this. and so, every time, nicole, that we have this conversation, we have to talk about the real-world implications of average citizens' life when we take away their voting rights and take away their voting impact, what happens is people's rights are lost and their lives are harmed. >> rick stengel, it is time to -- i agree with what matthew dowd is saying. if you read the senate judiciary committee's interim report on the coup, the plan was in motion. the constitutional crisis almost happened and we were one or two dominos away from mike pence calling dan quayle and saying, like, i'm not going to do it and
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dan quayle saying, you got to do it and, you know, mike pence in that call as reported by woodward and costa says, there's some stuff in arizona and quayle says, no, there wasn't. he was torn. governors kemp, governors ducey were under extreme pressure from donald trump, and if any of those dominos had gone the other way, we'd already be here. where is the plot getting lost on democrats who are still hand-wringing about something that isn't in the constitution, isn't a law, is a tradition predicated on having two parties committed to the good of the country? >> well, you mentioned a lot of stuff, nicole. and when you have one of those governing parties, which as matt said, is trying to decrease the franchise, that undermines our democracy in a profound way. i mean, thomas paine, 250 years ago, said the right to vote is
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the primary right by which our other rights are guaranteed. that's the fundamental of democracy. democracy. the people rule. and you have one party now which is trying to take the right away for people, and that is scary. you mentioned january 6th. it came way, way too close for comfort. this is not a partisan issue. it's a bipartisan issue. there's no partisanship to actually counting votes, and you have one party that doesn't want to count the votes. i mean, you know to what errin said too, part of the problem, voting rights and the suppression of the vote are two flip side of the same coin and the republican party is trying to do both at the same time. that will undermine our democracy in the most profound way so that you have a majority that is disenfranchised. you know, matthew said this too. republicans love talking about and have for years and years talked about how the
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constitution protects minority rights. and it does. but it doesn't protect the minority that is trying to disenfranchise the majority. and that is what is happening now. >> so, what is the argument for leaving the filibuster in place, rick stengel? >> well, i got to say, what is the point of preserving an anachronism like the filibuster if it undermines our very democracy? if you have no democracy left, what is the point of the filibuster? and i might add, the history of the filibuster is that it was mainly used by people to suppress voters of color and suppress rights of black citizens in america. that is what the voting -- that's what the filibuster was used for 50 or 60 years in the senate. why do we want to preserve that? i don't know. it's an anachronism that actually undermines our history and if it undermines the preservation of our democracy, there's no point in saving it. >> you've got everybody nodding.
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i'm going to come back to you, matt dowd, in a bit of donald trump news that i'm eager to amplify. he's calling on all his supporters to sit out, not to vote in 2022. donald trump calling on all of his voters not to vote. in 2024 if the -- what does he say? it's barely a noun and a verb, if the presidential election fraud of 2020, which we have thoroughly and conclusively documented on rudy's fingers, is not solved. it's ludicrous. it may be the reason, though, that senator warnock and senator ossoff are senators and the republicans are not. what do you think he's doing? >> well, i mean, i don't want to say humorously, but there's -- this is maybe the only time where i agree with donald trump. in this. they should listen to him. in the course of this. i mean, what's not humorous about this is this goes to my point i've made on your show
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before. donald trump and the republicans have no respect for their own voters. they have zero respect for their own voters. the voting isn't just about what happened to donald trump. the voting is about how am i going to improve my life? what are the politicians doing? how can i hold them accountable? what can happen in my community? what roads are going through? what bridges are getting built? what jobs are coming here? the vote is related to all these things which affect trump voters as much as biden voters in this but again we have a perfect example as donald trump has no respect, no respect for his own voters. none. because if he says, basically, because i didn't get what i want, you shouldn't vote, you shouldn't participate in election, in an election that may actually improve their lives, he doesn't want them to vote because of his own personal grievance in this. i think this is more an example of donald trump, and he seems to have success at this, getting politicians, yanking the chain of republican politicians to do exactly what he wants. it's happened here in texas.
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he says something -- he coughs and they go running to do whatever he thinks they ought to do in this. so it has more to do with that, but to me, it's just another sign of respect and i say this, if any trump voters are watching this, donald trump and the republicans have absolutely no respect for what's going on in your life or is happening in your life, and if you fall, they're not going to be there to pick you up. >> that said, in this one instance, please do listen to donald trump. don't vote. donald trump doesn't want you to vote in 2022 or 2024 unless this election thing is solved. rick stengel, errin haines, matt dowd, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. when we come back, the florida school board member whose chilling account of the threats she's endured from far-right figures. jennifer jenkins will be our next guest. plus the january 6th investigation plows ahead with a big day in court for a group of alleged oath keepers as prosecutors pore over a mountain of evidence against them. and it's a dangerous
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casualty, how all vaccine mandates including ones that have been in place for generations, are becoming collateral damage in the far right's war on science. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ontinues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. people with moderate to severe psoriasis, or psoriatic arthritis, are rethinking the choices they make like the splash they create the way they exaggerate the surprises they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not an injection or a cream
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i don't reject people coming here and speaking their voice. they do it all the time. we don't stop them from doing that. i don't reject them standing outside my home. i reject them following me around in a car, following my car around. i reject them saying that they're coming for me, that i need to beg for mercy.
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i reject that when they are using their first amendment rights on public property, they're also going behind my home and brandishing their weapons to my neighbors. that they're making false dcf claims against me to my daughter. that i have to take a dcf investigator to her play date to go underneath her clothing and check for burn marks. that's what i'm against. which is a credible threat. and calculated. >> we played that for you yesterday at the top of this very hour. brevard county, florida, school board member jennifer jenkins detailing in excruciating specificity the kind of harassment she's receiving over basic stuff here. mask rules for students and staff. as she and her young family cope with ongoing threats and intimidation, the school district finds itself in a standoff with the state over those same rules which could mean no pay for members of the school board and more threats. joining us now is jennifer
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jenkins, member of the brevard county school board. thank you so much for being with us today. >> thank you for having me. >> you said something that stopped me in any tracks and i want to start there. you said, it just takes one person to terrorize you. how are you doing? >> i'm doing okay. you know, i'm a human being. i have ups. i have downs. and sometimes those downs are really, really deep. but i'm doing okay, you know? i'm a strong person. i always come out of this stronger, more focused, and more motivated to continue to stand up for what i believe and what i believe i was elected to do. >> what was the reaction to that -- to those comments that you made that we have now played here? >> it has been a whirlwind. you know, i've always had a tremendous amount of support from the community. i always believed that what i stand for and what i have been pushing for, the safety and health of our students, was the
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majority of opinions. i've always believed that the people who have been the most nasty, the most negative, who have threaten medicine and harassed me were minority voices, so i'm so grateful for the tremendous amount of support that i have gotten and you know, i've had this national media attention that i have never expected in my entire life, and my inbox has been flooded with people from all over the nation and some people from other countries. >> so, you're right about it bubbling on to the national conversation. i want to show you how republican senator josh hawley reacted. he seems to either be unaware or disdainful of the idea that intimidation and harassment is happening. let me show you that. >> harassment and intimidation? what do those terms mean in the context of a local school board meeting? the first amendment context, we talk about the chill, the chill to speech. if this isn't a deliberate attempt to chill parents from showing up at school board
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meetings for their elected school boards, i don't know what is. i mean, i'm -- i'm not aware of anything like this in american history. >> so, let's be generous to mr. hawley in a way he's not ever to others, and assume he's just ignorant. but explain to him what harassment and intimidation you have experienced. >> oh, you know, i have to say this. i would love to know if mr. hawley has the public inside of his boardroom every single time he speaks. you know, i'm curious if he believes that he doesn't have any opposition. i'm curious if he's aware that his opposition probably wouldn't be as threatening and violent as mine has been. if he wants to understand what the definition of a threat and harassment is, it's someone coming, you know, 20 feet from your front door in a small beach town, saying they're going to come at you like a freight train. they're going to make you beg for mercy. they make false dcf claims against you with your daughter.
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they embarrass you, somebody you barely know, and force them to take you to her play date and lift up her shirt and pull back her pants for a complete and utter stranger to look at your 5-year-old's body in front of an acquaintance of mine. it's someone who follows you to your car every single time you go to a board meeting or another elected official meeting in the county. it is someone who just constantly says, i'm coming for you, every single time they see you. someone who coughs in your face when they're next door to your daughter's bedroom. someone who has the nerve to brandish weapons, again, feet within your home. that is a threat. that is harassment. state house representatives who feel the need to dox you and encourage people who are already ignited with hate and vengeance for you to call you, to harass you. that is a threat. that is a harassment.
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and it is so infuriating to watch other elected officials who can very well have the exact same thing happen to them have the nerve to say that they have no place to say it. and they shouldn't be saying it at all. >> i will make sure that your answer makes its way to mr. hawley's office. i'd like to understand what's going to happen next. i want to read this sort of update. i think it was by tuesday afternoon, the florida board of education sent a formal notice to your school district, giving you a 48 hours to comply with the state's regulations around mask mandates or be punished financially. can you tell us if anything has happened or what you expect to happen at that 48-hour mark? >> so, to be honest with you, i have been so busy today, i had touched base with our superintendent about an hour ago, asking what the status of that was and he said he was going to forward it to me right away. our attorney and our school board chair were drafting a response to that and sending it up to the state before that deadline. i have not yet read it.
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i can assume what it is, because i didn't get a phone call about doing anything different than we're doing now. and so, i'm hoping that's what it is. i'm hoping we're staying true to what we believe and keeping our students and staff safe. >> can you sort of go back in time for me? i mean, is the fight over masks the culmination of growing tensions over other issues that have been really rearing their heads at school board meetings, critical race theory and others? can you put this on a continuum for us in terms of your work on the board? >> yeah, absolutely. i have been on this board for almost a year at this point, and to be perfectly honest with you, i am one of the only members of this five-member school board that has faced any of these threats, any of these extreme forms of harassment. and it started from the day i was sworn into this office. i am in a very republican county. i'm a democrat. i'm in a republican district. we have a huge republican turnout when it comes to our
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elections, and i beat a republican incumbent by nearly ten percentage points, and that person didn't take that loss lightly, and formed an organization that has made it their mission to continue to focus on disdain for me and what i support and who i support. and that has kind of continued that narrative throughout our community to think that i am a threat, that i'm coming for their liberties, that i don't believe in parental rights, that i don't want parental involvement in schools, and it just continued the narrative. in april of 2021, this is when everything really started to come to a head. we had an lgbtq guideline that went out to our school administrators, and this was a document that just reinforced state law, federal law to support lgbtq students and their families. this was a document that was created when my opponent was on the board and not even when i was the one on the board. it was just delayed because of
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covid. and this same organization put it out there to the public with misinformation, making the public believe that this was something that, you know, a new, liberal school board member had something to do with and spread that narrative to just cause extreme hate in the community and that was when the first protests showed up on my doorstep, and of course, yes, just like it's happening nationally now, they jump from topic to topic. when that gets old, they move to critical race theory and have false press conferences with no evidence of it being in our schools and now we're back on masks. i don't see it ending any time soon, unfortunately. i think we're just going to continue to hop from topic to topic. >> jennifer jenkins, as you said, brevard county, i think, is a plus 17 points for donald trump over joe biden, so you are an incredibly difficult political waters, holding your own. we are really grateful to have some time to talk to you. please stay in touch can us. let us know how it goes. thank you. >> absolutely. thank you so much. when we come back, there's some brand-new reporting today
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on the prosecution of the insurrectionists who stormed the united states capitol on january 6th. we'll get details on the case against a group of far-right oath keepers accused of attacking capitol police. that story's next. f attacking capitol police that story's next. ♪ there are beautiful ideas that remain in the dark. but with our new multi-cloud experience, you have the flexibility you need to unveil them to the world. ♪ ♪darling, i, i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪oh no, babe girl, if i could only make you see♪
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well, much of our coverage lately has been centered around the january 6th committee. the government investigation and
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prosecution of those involved in the insurrection continues. prosecutors are still combing through a massive amount of evidence in these cases where nearly 700 people have been charged already. today, we have some big developments in several of the high-profile cases related to january 6th, including that major case involving 18 members of the oath keepers militia group. let's bring into our conversation nbc 4 washington investigative reporter scott macfarlane. tell me about this oath keepers case and its significance. >> yeah, nicole, it's the largest case in size by number of defendants but also because of the magnitude of the charges. the oath keepers are accused of plotting and planning, charged with conspiracy of bringing gear and encrypted communications. they were supposed to go on trial beginning in january, but this is headed right for the heart of midterm election season. it was pushed back today until at least april. the complication is getting all the evidence together. there is an unprecedented amount of evidence in all of these
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cases. the largest criminal investigation in u.s. history. and prosecutors say they need time to prep the evidence for themselves, for the court, and for defense lawyers, so the oath keepers case is going to be on hold for at least another half a year, but something else. a short while ago, nicole, a different accused far right group member, accused of being affiliated with the three percenters, facing 20 years in prison on just the conspiracy charge, successfully argued today, nicole, to represent himself at trial. he wants to be his own lawyer. he's a former police officer, says he knows a bit about the law. the judge strongly urged him not to do that, pulling up that old chestnut of anyone who represents himself has a fool for a client. he said he wants to represent himself because he can't afford a lawyer. allegedly has some concerns about corruption in the investigation, but nicole, alan now has himself for a client. >> and let me just remind our viewers some of what he is
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facing. questions about the use of his nonprofit, right? the american phoenix project, which organized rallies to support donald trump's false claims of the stolen election and used it as a platform to advocate violence against certain groups and individuals that supported the 2020 presidential election results. that's according to the indictment filed back in june. he sounds like someone who could also become of interest to the congressional committee. is he going to represent himself in all of this? >> well, he's also facing a civil suit, a lot of these accused far-right group members are facing civil suits from injured capitol police officers. this charity, according to prosecutors, began, actually, or at least part of its beginning was to fight covid restrictions, trying to fight government mandates on covid, and then, according to prosecutors, he began mobilizing to disrupt january 6th weeks in advance and that's why it's a high-profile case, nicole. he's accused of planning, conspiracy, just after the election, well before january
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6th. >> scott, you know, we come to you because you cover all these individual cases, but i'd love your reaction on the aggressive nature and the pace of the 1/6 committee. obviously, today, signaling that anyone that defies their subpoenas will be referred for criminal contempt, and sort of moving through everyone involved in planning the coup at the federal government level and issuing a subpoena late yesterday for jeffrey clark. your thoughts. >> two different worlds. the justice department investigation is there to investigate and prosecute those who committed crimes on site. the january 6th committee looking at the broader picture. what led up to this? what were the dynamics? what was the cause? i've spoken with a number of members of the january 6th committee over the last few days, including adam kinzinger, who's setting that same timetable i described, hoping to have it done by spring 2020 and that's not a vacuum. that does happen right in primary season for the midterms. >> scott macfarlane, we'll continue to call on you.
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thank you for spending time with us today. when we come back, the damage done by the republican-led assault on covid vaccine mandates is actually getting worse. we'll explain after a quick break. getting worse. we'll explain after a quick break. in 2016, i was working at the amazon warehouse when my brother passed away. and a couple of years later, my mother passed away. after taking care of them, i knew that i really wanted to become a nurse. amazon helped me with training and tuition. today, i'm a medical assistant and i'm studying to become a registered nurse.
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so, when are you coming to see us? ♪♪ every day, we see more businesses implementing vaccination requirements, and the mounting data shows that they work. let's be clear. vaccination requirements should not be another issue that divides us. that's why we continue to battle
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the misinformation that's out there. >> that was president biden today on the importance of covid vaccine requirements and mandates as the dangerous politically clouded baseless campaign against mandates from the far right now threatens the safety of all of us, including our children. as aaron blake points out in the "washington post," a new poll shows just 45% of republicans, now the minority, think parents should be required to get their children protected from infectious diseases with any kind of vaccine, things like measles, chickenpox, polio required for children and teens in all 50 states for decades. after six years of nearly no shift, it's an 18% drop over the past year. aaron blake writes this. quote, republicans have often distilled this talking point down to no vaccine mandates rather than saying, no coronavirus vaccine mandates. at some point, republicans need to ask themselves whether they're comfortable with their party edging in that direction, because it's not a huge logical
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jump, and at the very least, they could explain why they're against mandating this vaccine but not that one. joining us now is aaron blake, "washington post" senior political reporter and msnbc medical contributor dr. vin gupta. i wanted to get into your piece a little bit. this poll was incredible. this is from the economist, should parents be required to have their children vaccinated against infectious diseases? 85% of democrats say yes. 46% of republicans say yes. that's the number quoted in your piece. but here's what's so interesting. since 2015, the number of democrats went up from 81% to 85%. since 2015, the same period, the number of republicans went down 20 points. of course, what happened between 2015 and now? one donald j. trump. explain. >> yeah, after -- actually, you show that chart. if you go back a little bit further and you look at polling
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from another pollster, the pew research center, back in 2009, this was actually a completely bipartisan issue. there was no gap between the two parties whatsoever. when you got to 2015, you started to see a little bit of separation. we had republicans, about 67%, supporting mandatory vaccines versus democrats, 81%, and then what you saw after a few years of that was that that gap stayed very consistent. things kind of fluctuated a little bit but there was about a 14, 15-point gap. what changed is the coronavirus vaccines came along, and once they started polling this issue, once ugov started polling this issue in the summer, we saw a much bigger gap than we had seen previously. i think there is some question in this polling on how much republicans would say the same thing about all these other vaccines or if this is a question that they're responding specifically about the coronavirus vaccine. but certainly, when we talk about those talking points that you mentioned, the no vaccine
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mandate talking point that congressman jim jordan used this week, house minority leader kevin mccarthy has also used that talking point in the past. it suggests that this argument is very much about all vaccines, and i think that we're seeing republicans who, in many cases, were against the coronavirus vaccine may be coming over to that viewpoint that maybe all of these vaccines should be, nicole, at least when it comes to mandating them for children. >> one, it's terrifying ahead of the october 26th scheduled meeting for the vaccine to be approved for 5 to 11-year-olds but two, pull the thread. what does that mean? republicans are now pro childhood death from diseases that have long been eradicated, aaron? >> and what the -- i think what the real question is, whether we're going to see republicans in some of these state legislatures start to edge toward actually doing something about this kind of growing
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anti-vaccine mandate fervor in their party and we've already seen in a couple of cases, at least edging towards that. we saw in tennessee a few months ago this summer where the state health department moved to stop all vaccine outreach, not just coronavirus vaccine outreach to children. a couple weeks ago in florida, a key member of the legislature, who leads a health committee, said he was looking at potentially reviewing some of these other vaccine mandates. in both cases, they ultimately pulled back and kind of reversed course, but i think as we move forward with this, and especially as we start to see schools start mandating these coronavirus vaccines like the governor of california recently announced, it's really going to drive home that debate, and i think you're going to see at least some republicans who have been careful about trying to appeal to this very vocal portion of their base start to maybe move in that direction and put some pressure on their party in a way that's going to raise some very uncomfortable questions. >> well, i think uncomfortable is being generous, dr. gupta.
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i mean, i think the science on these vaccines is so established, is so transparent. what do you think? are you scared that we're heading back to a place where diseases that don't have to kill any children could now endanger them again? >> yeah, i think that's -- good afternoon, nicole. that's transparent. do you think we're heading back to a disease that could kill them again? >> this is emblematic of a larger problem. we're victims of our own success in some ways, and when people don't feel the threat from measles, from tetanus or polio here in the united states, in some cases, sadly, along party lines the intensity values the portion of it. you would think vaccinations at risk is not necessary or is being heaped upon the individual freedoms. yes, there is a worry here. i think we've lost the
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communication battle for what's important. >> i want to ask you about the other news that's breaking. the fda recommended a moderna booster shot. if you had moderna, and it's been six months and you're 18 years and older or 16 years and older and are at risk, the same group that was eligible for pfizer last month. is this something that's wearing off, and two, no matter the form of vaccine you had, you should go ahead and boost it? and is it important to boost with pfizer if you had pfizer and to boost with moderna if you had moderna? >> there is a lot there. i'll try to be as precise as i can, nicolle. i personally believe what our friends in england and canada and elsewhere have revealed to the world about mixing and
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matching that we should be promoting that. it seems like it's good confusion for the body. the immune system likes it. it's safe and effective. sometimes your antibody levels are higher than if you had stuck with the same brand. we'll have is that study in the pipeline and you'll see that change before long. for your other questions here, there is a feeling, and you saw this in the comments from the vaccine experts on all these advisory panels, nicolle, that we needed to remain consistent. that we went through a one-way door where we created an expectation that everybody that wanted a booster could get it, way back six weeks ago when the president announced it. so there is not clear evidence that moderna is waning, necessarily, as there was with pfizer, is to i think this decision was made in the earnestness of wanting to remain consistent. >> dr. vin gupta, thank you for adding some context there. we'll stay on it. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. encouraged:
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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. steve bannon could face jail as this probe intensifies, and coming up i have a special report on a right winged and racist theory. how it's spreading in america and how we're going to debunk it in evidence and history tonight. we've been working on that special for you and we have that coming up. then there's the


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