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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  November 2, 2021 12:00am-1:00am PDT

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tonight on all in. you endorsed youngkin? >> and i didn't uncle. i did i endorsed him strongly. >> the slow motion coup in progress and the last two investigations ongoing are tomorrow's vote in virginia is anything but normal. then, -- >> on december 17th the fbi gets a tipster call that warrants them that there's chatter on these extremists site that's pro donald trump. and they are saying let's kill these cops around congress on january. six >> blockbusters washington post -- tonight my exclusive interview with the d.c. homeland security official those warning of violence interactions were nerd. plus the texas law establishing a bounty to stop abortion, gets a hearing in the supreme court. >> that was something that until this law came along, no state dreamed of doing. >> and as joe biden heads to
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classical, why there is a case for real optimism at the un climate talks. when all in starts right now. >> good evening from new york i'm chris saints, on the eve of the biggest election of the year, donald trump wants everyone to know, that he and virginia republican glenn youngkin are thick of thieves. two peas in a pod. virtually indistinguishable from one another. you're going to have to take my word from it. trump released a statement today to the media, quote is trying to create an impression that glenn youngkin and i are at odds and don't like each other. importantly, this is not true, we get along very well together and strongly believe in many of the same policies. >> trump is also expected to call into a town hall supporting youngkin any minute now. and it will not be the first time. i remember that rally last month in richmond, virginia, where attendees pledged allegiance to an american flag that was at the january 6th
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insurrection on d.c.. trump also called into that rally to endorsed youngkin. but notably the guy he was endorsing the republican economy was not president at the very weird flag of in, in fact, he tried to distance himself from. it he will not be president at today's event, reporters said, quote, i will not going to be engaged in the tele-town hall. >> he sure won't be. >> i mean it makes a lot of sense. he is running as a republican in the state donald trump won by ten points just a year ago. he understands that if he wants to win, there needs to be some distance between himself and donald trump. right now looks like that strategy might be paying. up duncan holds he's a very serious competitor -- an outright favorite to win tomorrow virginia. it is a close race either way, take a step, back and look at the history of that state, it be a close race kind of makes sense. democrats and virginia have controlled the governor's mansion since 2014. the state has not along's tree of flipping against the party
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that controls the white house in congress. in comment, president george w. bush, won virginia by eight points, only for democrats tim kaine to win the gubernatorial race by five points. what was seen in the national committee comey to, -- and the disastrous handling of hurricane christina. the most visceral backlash came into thousand, i'd that's after democrats claim thousand 2008 elections including barack obama winning virginia by six points. which stunned a whole lot of observers. and then just a year later, following, year bob mcdonald went on to become governor of virginia defeating his opponent by a whopping 17 points. that's a 23 point swinging points in just one year. and to put it mildly, this was seen as very bad news for democrats. just listen to how nbc opened its nightly news broadcast the day after the election. >> good evening, a year ago, we were talking about a sea change in american politics. tonight we are reporting a
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small change which could also be anonymous development for the year old obama administration. republicans were elected governor last night, two important states, but other than preferred both candidates to the democrats, were voters across the country last night trying to say something else? there is evidence of an angry electorate out there. >> that was not wrong. we remember what happened in the midterms in 2010, that night with brian williams referring to -- they were bob mcdonald and new jersey's chris christie. that was an even more stunning [inaudible] because of the unusual -- and not during a midterm year an awfully because it's a kind of swing you stayed in some ways. the state often access [inaudible] for public sentiment. and normally that would not be unusual. this kind of pendulum in the major competitive parties is what democratic politics look like in liberal democracy all over the world. it is true, you've got example of some political leaders, who
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just stepped down. or brazil's former president, who is going to be running again. that hadn't been known to be building these last thing -- but for the most part, what happens in countries like france and italy, the uk swing back and forth, left and right, with some irregularities. the uk has had some conservative parties for a while now. but again, you've got this sort of competitive back and forth system of elections. it is just how political gravity works in a democracy. and some, ways at least in the abstract, when you take a step back, it's how you want them to work. you want competitive parties. single party rules is not really a sign of a wall functioning democracy of well things, considered. so with histories regard, it should not be very surprising if republican glenn gun winds tomorrow night. except it's not just any normal election. that is the problem, we are less than one year out than the last president, attempting a
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coup. outright pressuring elected officials to throw the vote in favor to say nothing to the mass leading to january six. and is anyone paying any site amount of attention that that same guy, the cool guy, the guy that tried to and 240 straight years of american democracy, look like he's trying to do it again, and a large part of that strategy seems to be endorsing candidate who he believes will help him overturn the will of the voters. should he need to. >> trump is pretty explicit in his embrace in states like arizona and georgia and michigan. who have endorsed his big lie of voter fraud and will have direct say over the elections next time around. and that, at least in my view, look, it makes the endorsement of you can somehow suspect. trump is not going to endorse someone who he thinks will not be there for him in three years if they need him. he thinks he has some reason to believe that youngkin is this guy. and here is youngkin a few weeks ago endorsing an audit of the election results.
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>> we need to make sure that people trust these voting machines. i just think, i grew up in a world where you have an audit and re-air, and in businesses, you have an audit. so it's just audit the voting that we received, publish it so everyone can see. it >> just audited. trust, we, wink, nudge. whether or not he'll overturn democracy in virginia, i don't know. but that's an intentional strategy on his part. but at least in temperament, former ceo of the equity, the coral, group presenting himself as an harmless virginia dad in that this. you see, youngkin, has rediscovered an old tribe true strategy that is where the kind of dissipated in the post trump political order but in good step. instead of just staying quiet part along, giving into his instincts, you can traffics in subtext, making the virginia election a referendum. but by education he doesn't mean school rankings, college
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for preparedness, or equity. he means virginia should not be teaching students that it exists in united states. just listen to what virginia republican from the county explain her concern within the state curriculum from showtime the circus. >> they are putting down the child for the color of their skin. >> where do you see evidence of that? one particular six greater in the middle school here, it was a rap some pushing the slaughter of the native americans. the lyrics of the song was putting down andrew jackson at the time. >> i think a lot of people would credit andrew jackson with the genocide of native population. >> yes, but how do you discuss it without -- >> demonstrating whiteness? >> yes. at one point when do you forgive and stop segregated? >> there it is, that's just one woman's opinion. but she is representative. i don't want my kid learning that andrew jackson was a vial,
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purveyor of genocide. please stop teaching my kid. that that is what i want to go vote for. you see, youngkin's credit is not the same as the outright racism that we heard from donald trump. calling immigrants from countries criminals, and rapists. it is subtle or, more -- channeling some energy -- the republican base here's the message flooding clear just as you heard. and as trump told fox news over the weekend youngkin needs that piece. >> i think he should win. i think he should. i'll be honest. my base has to turn out. if my base turns out, he is going to win. and i heard they turnout. i really want them to turn. >> you see what trump is doing there to? he is trying to claim credit for this victory, so we could call in the favor later. >> so youngkin's campaign is return to form for the republican party. give yourself just enough plausible deniability in the messaging that you push. you can flip some swing voters
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with a alienating your core base that worked up around these white backlash issues, but again, what makes it also scary is this specific political moment that we're. in because you cannot just pretend that trump's authoritarian -- are not. there it looms over all of it. they raised the existential stakes of what should be in quote, back and, fourth of political democracy. and what's different ideologies can compete for power. and it is not a sub state-able equal equilibrium that we have. here it is not. ron there's one of the two competitive parties, we only have two, that is on the this we have an authoritarian. who is committed to advancing his agenda. of being crowned ruler. democracy notwithstanding. and that is all happening while we watch the normal predictable pattern of politics. senator tim kaine representing -- who served from 2006 2010 and
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he joins me. now senator, you know the states politics as well as just about anyone. tell me about that governor's race in 2005. because i remember that being a big deal, and again, there was some of those dynamics in effect with terms of who's in power in the white house, and where the energy is's opposition, and how much do you think that matters? and how much was it just about virginia issues? >> well chris, you're right, the virginia governor race coming after the presidential race. you see a 70% turnout in the presidential year, and then the governor's race, the next year, it's going to be 47, it could be 45, 42. the turnout drop -- and you always see really really close races. my race was a single point race up until the election i ended up winning by five or six. but everybody thought that it was essentially a dead heat. so, this is sort of a common phenomenon and it just means
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that, you know, the party that has won the white house cannot be complacent. the one thing in this virginia race that i'll predict will be in factor tomorrow night, is that we have 45 days of early voting in virginia for the first time ever. in a governor's race because our democratic houses decided that they wanted to make it convenient for people to vote. the early vote is coming in very very strong for terry mcauliffe, but it is going to be a close race tomorrow. no doubt about. >> this is also going to be a first big election, there is a california recall that that was not very close, the first big election would all sort of nationalize on, i get, with donald trump endorsing this candidate under this picture of the big lie, and you've got the former president saying this today, we must win bigger than the margin of fraud by flooding the polls with those who believe in american first. you've got this really, again, unsustainable situation where there is almost an expectation that if it were a close loss for glenn youngkin that is not
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gonna be the end of it, as far as republicans are concerned. >> no, i think you're right, glenn youngkin -- started in -- the big lie about election fraud, problems with the 2020 election, he's finishing the campaign with an ad going after a lot. the african american woman for her winning novel, so he's finishing with this weird attack on an african american woman author again coating and dog whistle. this is a trumpian campaign. and on the democratic side we believe that if we win whether it's a close when. the youngkin team with the backing of trump will try to democrat so that is why it's so important that people turn out so that we can deliver a very
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very clear mandate tomorrow. because we expect the youngkin and trump team will try to challenge the integrity of the election. it's like they're already doing. they brought steve bannon in for a big rally, ten days ago. they pledged allegiance to a flag that they used that the quote, peaceful protests on january 6th 2021. in d.c., they're setting it up for an attack on virginia's election integrity, virginians are a priest -- there is a question here about what this race is about. it's funny, when i spent time on youngkin's website, i've been reading the local coverage -- that one parent activists in young and -- apparently a lot of this about whether kids learning, are they learning the history of racial hierarchy and things like that. those are real issues, in the sense that are our parents that are worried about that and they're actually like big
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normative fights in democracy. what do kids learn? but, i can't really find anything else about what exactly a glenn youngkin gubernatorial administration would look like in the state of virginia. other than this sort of coating on, defund the police or security or whatever. >> well, i think you're right chris. and virginia folders are in danger. -- because he is in putting up anything about what he wants to do is governor, he wants to use these cultural issues. i'm sure i got a lot of virginia's watching this, virginia schools are some of the best performing schools in the country. not only pre-k 12 schools but also higher institutions. most governors if they could do a secret ballot would trade their education systems for virginia. terry mcauliffe great edging -- investing in education, expanding early childhood education. --
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better funding for community colleges. a lot of people move to virginia because the public schools are very very high quality. that doesn't mean we can't do more. we've talked about the fact that our teachers are and paid the national average the way they should be. and he wants to move it there. but, glenn youngkin is trying to kind of create an inflate a culture of grievance, against schools and school teachers. it showed that it doesn't really match up with the reality of one people in most virginia -- >> all right, senator -- commonwealth virginia. thank you for making time for us tonight. it is a big night tomorrow night, msnbc's live electric election coverage kicks off at 5 pm eastern. and then stick around to join me, rachel maddow, jaw rave, that steve kornacki there as well. 9:30 eastern. don't miss it. on wednesday january 6th, as we watch thousands of trump supporters -- one of the biggest questions of the day was, why was law
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enforcement so unprepared? there is explosive new reporting from washington post that details the largely ignored efforts of one man, who tried hard to warn that federal authorities, the head of intelligence at d.c.'s homeland security office, saw the warning signs, sounded a very alarm he could. he's here to tell me what's what's wrong. next. t' what's wrong next next plain aspirin could be hurting your stomach. new vazalore is the first liquid-filled aspirin capsule clinically shown to cause fewer ulcers than plain aspirin. vazalore is designed to help protect... releasing aspirin after it leaves your stomach... where it is absorbed to give you the benefits of life saving aspirin... to help prevent another heart attack or stroke. heart protection with your stomach in mind. try new liquid-filled vazalore. aspirin made amazing!
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january six, there's still so much we are learning about the events surrounding january six. this washington post just released report, really helps fill in some of the blanks. it's got epic documentation about what happened before, during, and after the investigation, sort of broke of the parts. and it's always been a bit of a clearer sort of white law enforcement thought would happen that day. but this report leads little question, that there were plenty of warning signs. quote, the head of intelligence at d.c.'s homeland security office was growing district. for days, denial harvey and his team had spotted increasing signs that supporters of president donald trump were planning violence when congress met to formalize the electoral college vote. but the federal law enforcement agencies did not seem to share his sense of urgency's. after harvey and heard from his counterparts across the country, they were seeing troubling signs, he did everything to sound the warning. quote, 48 hours before the attack harvey began pressing every alarm but he could. he invited the federal bureau of investigation, the department of homeland security, military intelligence services
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and other agencies to see the information in realtime as his team collected it. he took another extreme step, he asked the city's health department to convene the call to d.c. area hospitals and urged them to repair for a mass casualty event. and to your emergency rooms, he said, and stock up your blood banks. despite his efforts, the capitol police were still woefully unprepared when thousands of trump supporters stormed the capitol. sounding that alarm, danielle harden is the chief of -- the d.c. homeland security and emergency management agency, and he joins me now. doctor hartman, thank you so much. first, will you just describe what your role was? what your job was to be doing, in the run up to january six, that led you to be looking at this activity and getting nervous about it. >> well, thank you chris. me and my team are responsible for collecting, disseminating, and analyzing threat information that could impact the operations or harm anybody that comes into the district of
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columbia. so, we have responsibilities to share that information with all of our federal and local state partners. and what were you seeing that was still alarming? >> we had seen a lot of activity in october and november with a lot of the first member -- what we saw, leading up to january six was something that we have never seen before. my staff were alarmed. particularly, actors, threat actors that were coming into d.c., that we have never had encountered before. they were coming from all over the country. we saw him are militia, who don't generally come to d.c., because they don't like to leave home without their arms. and we saw a lot of threat information suggesting that people would be sequestering weapons, and looking for ways to enter the capitol. >> what are the interesting's aspects of this, that come through in these reporting is
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is the home -- first amendment protected activity and threat. we want to free society, where people can say i can put up a block post that says i believe the u.s. government should be overturned. or we should have a revolution in the u.s.. and that's first amendment protected activity. i'm gonna go to d.c., who wants to help me train firing a weapon, is probably still first amendment of protecting. but it's the kind of thing that leads to something different, you can see throughout the reporting and understandable worry about infringing on purpose first amendment. but what's the guideline with dealing with that kind of activity, that kind of speech? >> listen, first things first, if you can't come to the nation's capital and trust your government, that we see cillizza live in a democracy. and so our job, me and my team's jobs, first and foremost is to protect everybody that comes to washington d.c.. to make sure that they are able to participate in a peaceful first amendment activity. and to protect the city from
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anybody who may have some nefarious thoughts. the dividing line, i should mentioned, is when individual start sharing what we call teepees, tactics, techniques, and procedures. that indicates that they're doing anything else but coming to peacefully demonstrate. sequestering weapons and long guns. which are not allowed in the district of columbia. sharing planes to if illustrate the capital, sharing radio signals for their handheld radios, and things of that nature. and so, those are the really worrisome signs that we saw leading up, and there was a lot of it. -- he was a lot of chatter, it was an avalanche of information. >> and there's a lot of people monitoring this having similar experiences. as you're talking to people in field offices around the country, including one general gentleman in san francisco. and there's a lot of this -- the guy who runs the website
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devoted to the tunnels under the capitol, sending a missive to the fbi saying, i've seen a huge spike in my traffic and it seems like the traffic is coming from these right-wing message boards, like the donald -- something's happening here. why do you try to do with this information, who do you try to convene, and what was that met with? >> yeah, well, we were drinking at some point probably about a week before the january 6th event. we were shrinking through a fire hose in far as far as information and intelligence. i reached out to my counterpart, mike santa, and san francisco and asked for his guidance. and so, that was the first step in to kind of share what we were seeing on our end with a natural -- and, everyone was seeing the same thing. so, we did our judge elegances and push that up to our leadership, they acted upon it relatively quickly. and then, we also share that information with our federal
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partners. >> so, the big question, is why more wasn't done. and in the reporting in the washington post there's a whole bunch of different details there, some of which make a lot of sense, some there's a lot of antagonist and worry on the part of the pentagon about the department of national guard troops, what message would stand, trump possibly trying to redirect them to his own events. understandable stuff. but it does seem like you hit a brick wall a little bit, with federal authorities in their ability to cobb nice what could happen. >> see, i can't speak to that. because we share the information and we don't know what happens once it gets to the other agencies. i can't tell you that we met with as many people, we met with the hospitals who generally aren't in the threat intelligence consumption business. we spoke with whoever we could meet with, we had our analysts out there are meeting with people in collecting information. and i'm just curious as you are
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in the american public about what happened with that information. and i'm looking forward to finding out once the investigations are done. >> doctor tell harvard, really, really enjoyed talking tonight. thank you so much. >> thank you chris. >> ahead, donald trump waited over three hours to address the mob that address the capital, assaulted police officers, and threaten the life of his vice president, all in his name. next, more from that extraordinary new report from the washington post, that offers an entirely new perspective on how that day unfolded. and just what happened in those three hours of silence, we'll be right back. silence, we'l be right back.
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hurt. we had an election that was stolen but you have to go home the. we have to have peace. we have to have law and order. -- >> trump told us to go. i remember thinking, all right, let's get out of here, let's go. >> i love you, you're very
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special, go home and go home and peace. >> he says go home. >> donald trump is asked everybody to go home. >> a 32nd clip from the outstanding hbo documentary -- the capital calling for the best deputy. the people who attacked the capitol were literally waiting on the whims of donald trump for the next move. but for hours before trump sent that message, telling the supporters to go home, that he loved them, then go home, he said nothing. in its new investigative piece, the washington detailed the carnage that took place while trump remain silent, quote, during the 187 minutes that trump stood by, harrowing scenes of violence played out in around the capitol. 25 minutes into trump silence, a news photographer was dragged down a flight of stairs and thrown over a wall. 52 minutes, in a police officer was kicked in the chest and surrounded by a mob. within the first hour, two rioters died as a result of cardiac events. 64 minutes, in a rider paraded a confederate battle flag from
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the capital. 73 minutes and another police officer was buried in the face with chemicals. 78 minutes and, yet another police officer was assaulted with a flagpole. 83 minutes in, rioters broke into and begin looting the house speaker's office. 93 minutes, in another news photographer was surrounded, push down, and robbed of -- 94 minutes in, a rioter was shot and killed. 102 minutes, and rioters stormed the senate chambers, stealing papers, and posing for photographs around the days. 116 minutes of fourth police officer was crushed in a doorway and beaten with his own baton. all in the first two hours. roslyn is one of the many reporters who have piece together the washington post at the comprehensive pieces before and after january six, and she joins me now. first i have to say great work, i've learned a lot of it from someone who has been covering it intimately day in a day out. i still learn from it. i guess the first question here
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is, what your reporting suggests. we saw that video, to open up. which is a sort of an amazing sinking moment of the president single home, people crowded around smartphone saying, oh we got the message. what took so long that i had to be 187 minutes to get to that message? >> we know that at that time then president was not even in the oval office. he was in his private dining room. and all kinds of people were trying to reach him and get him to speak out. and he would not do it. he appeared to be charged by the crowd. part of the reason why we did this in this format is because we wanted to show how his words galvanized his supporters before that day. how his silence empowered them on that day. and how the things he has said since the election has continued to galvanize his supporters even until this day. so that even what drove january
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6th really hasn't faded at all. >> one thing that becomes clear is that whatever trump was sort of. enjoyment or passivity of what he is watching happened. the members inside, republican democratic freaked out. you've got lindsey graham basically landed at the sergeant arms to shoot people. to be more proactive at this desperate attempt by these new members to try and get trump to call off the dogs, basically. >> yes, one of the things that we reported it is that there were members who were calling and basically saying if we can get back to work, will object to the election for you. but right now people are trying to kill. us which is incredible cognitive difference right there. >> yes, just to be clear, that is the mob essentially trying to get what it's want. mauve storms, because they want
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to destructive. a lot of these members said that they were going to vote against in the beginning. but this sort of almost desperate plead says, look, you control these people. that is the implicit nature of all the context of trump across the ideological part of this in divide, we know they will listen to you. >> right, and they still do. one of the things that we have looked at in this siri is the ongoing threat to public officials that we found that in the east and 17 states, election officials, their lives and physical safety have been threatened since designer a six. not the. ford since that day. now that those threats often spike right after the now former president targets a person by name, or goes after their state. >> what do you learn that you didn't know from this reporting? having been around as i have, what's stood out to you here? to me the sort of timeline you assembled of the sheer carnage
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an awful human cost that could've been prevented is really striking. i'm curious what jumped out to you. >> it's the role of the president, and it's the missed red flags that you mentioned or talked about with doctor hartman in the previous segment. you know, but there is a lot that this new, i'd say, there were 75 washington post journalist that participated in this project, there are three very long chapters, so there is a lot that is new across the three segments. >> and this question of how this looms over everything that comes after sort of haunts the entire piece. because as you say, here in terms of the threat to local officials, it is not a one and done situation. at least on in the mind of the president who is called at the real protests, at the real insurrection of election day. and i don't think it's left the minds of the people who worked at the capitol either.
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>> no, one of the things that we write about is the deep trauma that is still affecting members of congress, but also affecting members of the capitol hill police force. we profiled a captain on that force who has been having dreams, with badly injured by chemicals used by that day. so there are a lot of people still struggling with what happened. i'm part of a mix them struggle, is the understanding that the forces that drove would have been, not in any way feted. >> a lot of those folks would be a better state, if they go home in a message three hours earlier. rosalind helderman thank you very much. >> thank you for having me. >> coming up, we'll supreme court side with abortion laws after hearing you arguments with the total ban in texas. we will tell you exactly what they said, and talk to a plaintiff in the case, just
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world's biggest polluter insisted that no caps be placed on emissions of carbon monoxide, the gas that contributes the most to the greenhouse effect. treat -- is a tragic failed opportunity to reduce the threat of gullible warming. >> america's record on environmental protection is second to none, so i did not come here to apologize, we come to press on with deliberate purpose and forceful action. >> it was almost 30 years ago in rio de janeiro, that leaders first created that framework to begin fighting global warming, collectively. the maddening irony of course, truly maddening, is that shut stronger action be taken back then we don't be in better shape today, far less warming, far less co2 in the atmosphere, and less drastic measures needed now to counter it. that president you saw there, george h. w. bush, sign that framework unreal but his defense -- set the tone for a lot of the
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american leadership on this issue, if you can call it that. essentially being an obstacle, what needs to be done to control climate change. spending a lot of time blaming other people. it's an attitude shown particularly under republican presidents, it was true to under george w. bush, who may you're may remember -- which was a collective agreement at the time. it was also true to donald trump who removed us from the paris climate agreement. tonight, joe biden is in glasgow, scotland, for the latest version of the same summit. he already re-enter the u.s. in the parent or paris agreement, and he's a rare opportunity to actually exert some's form of u.s. leadership on this issue. as congress has poised -- to prove the largest climate investment ever. and every time we're on the cusp of one of these moment, every time there's something like paris, or glasgow, there's a bit of a groundhog day quality to it. the recurring, we're heading towards catastrophic warming, the windows closing, we must
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act now, miss it, followed by business as usual and if your me, followed by despair. there's something different this time, thanks to how much the technological pictures changed, we've reached a point where business as usual warning production is now considerably improved from what it was before the paris summit back in 2015. now, that doesn't mean that countries have gotten serious, or that anyone frankly is hearing hitting their previous plunge on lowering emissions. it just means that the availability to -- that even if nothing changes. our trajectory has shifted. in 2014, the world was headed towards a catastrophic warming, between 3.6 and 2.4 degrees celsius by the end of the century. you see it here, represented by that long rising red band. and that level of warming is just entirely compatible with sustaining water civilization, in the way that we know. it now, it looks to be headed
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between 2.7, and 3.1 degree celsius. that orange band. there you can see it slower than before paris. again, that is not a future we want, it is in many ways catastrophic. but, notice that we move the pathway in the right direction, it shows we can penn bend the warming curve. and that a lot of technological changes happening in our favor. as a human space. some winds at our backs, especially if we can all get it on the political front. that will be of course the big question that hangs over the glasgow summit, the only other thing because we saw this when it comes to climate change, is that we do have a president who really does seem to understand what's at stake at the moment. when having his presidents in office at that conference would have been a world historical disaster. disaster
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most americans for most of american history never actually got to hear the arguments that were put before the most powerful cord the country. it was not until october of 1955, the supreme court of the united states taping oral arguments which were then preserved by the archives. and used to have to wait until the beginning of the next term to even get the audio recordings, that finally changed in 2010. the court still won't allow video cameras, but today, for the first time, the court livestreamed audio of in-person arguments online. giving millions of people the opportunity to listen in realtime. as the nation's highest court heard arguments over sb8, he
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and precedent a texas law, that bans abortions after six weeks. but crucially, outsource is the enforcement of it to random citizens who can sue people for abortions and collect a bounty. >> there are laws, defamation laws, gun control laws, rules during the pandemic about the exercise of religion, that discouraged and chill the exercise of constitutional protected liberties. >> yes. >> and they can only be challenged after the fact. >> the fact that after, oh this many years, some geniuses came up with a way to evade the commands of that decision as well as the command that the broader, the even broader principle that states are not to nullify federal constitutional rights, and to say, oh we've never seen this before so we can't do anything about it. i guess i just don't understand
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the argument. >> amy had extra miller is the founder and ceo of whole woman's health, the organization challenging the texas abortion ban in the supreme court. -- at new york university, she clerks furch -- and she's a cohost of legal podcast, strict scrutiny, along with leah witnessed and my wife. full disclosure. the -- anita i want to get you in a second -- but just to start with where things stand today. so this argument wasn't about whether the law itself can rise or fall, it was an argument about whether the supreme court has the power to temporarily halt the enforcement of the law. because the u.s. justice department sued texas saying, this scheme you've come up with to deny a constitutional right but outsourcing enforcement to private citizens, you think a super clever, but we can still stop viewed from doing. it basically is my
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understanding. is that a roughly correct correct characterization? >> roughly correct, there are actually two suits that are being heard today, before the court. one brought by the abortion providers against a court justice, county clerks, the state a.g., and the other brought by the department of justice against texas. but they all go to the central question, can this be in federal court? is there a way for individuals to sue the state, such that they can deal with the enforcement of this law. because the laws novel procedure mechanism actually delegates this enforcement private citizens, so this is a purely jurisdictional hearing trying to determine whether the individuals named in the east -- and in the case of the united states versus texas, whether the united states could sue a sovereign state. or whether that was in permissible. whenever nonetheless, -- both of these questions go to the broader existential question of, what is the united
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states supreme court have to say when a state goes rogue. and decides to completely defy the courts precedence. >> yeah, that was a lot of the argumentation, yet if you have a constitutional right and you come up with some crafty scheme to deny it, we can still see what you're doing. this was the -- and, amy for you, the kind of novel jurisdictional question here, relates directly to the work you do. because the whole thing was crafted in this way to avoid an injunction, to shut down abortion providers in the state of texas, and keep them shut down as long as possible to basically bleed you drive. to make you impossible for you to stay in business and continue providing health care for women. what effect has it had? >> you know, the effect has been devastating, chris. it's right you're right, is there to block access, to make it more difficult for us to provide, it's their or to threaten and intimidate and
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surveil. people who provide abortion and anybody who helps somebody seeking an abortion. but also, it is unprecedented in the way it's just taking the government and elected officials off the hook, and putting the hands of enforcement into vigilantes. into the people who are out on the sidewalk, intimidate and threatened and harassed us constantly. and, let's be clear, the effect that it's having the most is on the people of texas who deserve access to safe abortion care. who have been denied that access, who have been told that they can't get the health care they need in their community, and in their states. and they either have to be forced to continue a pregnancy against their will, or they're expected to travel to another states somewhere outside of texas. and that's just unacceptable. >> the texas policy evaluation project trying to run some numbers for your, they found a 50% decline in abortions in the state of texas. which in some ways is less than a drop tonight of predicted, given the nature of the law.
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but of course, the goal to stop the provision of abortions, the goal to overturn ultimately roe v. wade and casey which is the later case. that hangs over all of us, a certain point -- kind of name the elephant in the room in sort of an interesting way, basically saying what is this matter if we're just gonna overturn roe anyway. take a listen when he had to say. >> if some abortions have been chilled, is there any way to determine the degree to which that is the result of the potential for sbp eight suits, from the degree to which it it is attributable to the furor of liability. if burrow or casey's altered. >> i mean, first of all, let me just go to you amy, since thoughts and a hypothetical that you can give a straightforward answer to. it's clearly sb8, right?
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>>. yeah, roe hasn't fallen in texas. row is still the law of the land. as v8 is just tangling up peoples access to abortion. and threatening and intimidating people for providing the care. and everybody knows the sequence week that is unconstitutional, even if the circuit -- there are getting tied up with illegal mumbo jumbo, but what's most important for us to look at is the impact it's having to communities, to families on the ground in texas. 10% of people in this country live in texas, this is a huge impact for all of us, across the country. >> so, melissa, what do you make of illegal saying that? >> what seemed to be keeping in his hand a little bit, maybe saying the quiet part out loud. and you certainly know that justice alito, along with justice thomas are staunch in their -- i think justice alito made have been giving us a preview of what will here in the oral arguments just a month from now, in jobs versus jackson with
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this health organization, which is a challenge of the mississippi 15-week abortion ban. >> amy had extra miller, melissa -- thank you very much appreciate it. >> thank you chris. >> that does it for all in, on this monday evening now, rachel maddow starts right now. good evening rachel. >> good evening chris, am i gonna see you in person tomorrow when we're all doing electric coverage? >> we're gonna be hanging in person, it's very very exciting. >> i both super excited and i feel like i've never been around humans i've been worked with before. >> you know, we got the posse here right now, and he's pointing out my teleprompter. and doing his thing. so, we've got everyone. i've gotten everywhere i've gotten used to working environment with everyone. >> wow, you are always better with people than me, but tomorrow's gonna be the true. test i'm gonna be like a book or in the corner, velcro to the corner of the wall, being like, you guys do it all hang out here with my mask. >> all right, i'll see you tomorrow. >> i'll see you then. yeah.
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thank you very much for joining us this hour, it's good to have you here. tomorrow night we're are going to be doing a full blown election coverage for the elections that are happening tomorrow, in new jersey and virginia and across the country it is trusting racist. so, if you have plans have plan tomorrow, new jersey and virginia and across the country. if you have plans to have your usual tuesday night bopping around doing other stuff, it will be an important election coverage night tomorrow. in march of this year two men were left on death row in the state of virginia, just two. the last time a person was sentenced to death was a decade ago, 2011. the last time they carried out an execution, prison staff legally kill one of their prisoners was four years ago but in this year, march of this year, there were two men left on death row in that state, an both of them t