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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  January 4, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PST

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have to worry about a cabal to take your rights with conspiracy befitting a dan brown novel, the government doesn't have the range. being stuck in your car, trapped on highway for entire day is definitely the absolute worst. that's tonight's "the reid out." "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> i beg you, sean, remember the frame of mind you were in when you wrote that text january 6. >> we have more hannity texts. >> he was more than a fox host, also a confidante, adviser of the former president. >> new texts by the january 6 committee, new questions what he knew about trump's plans. >> quote, can he make a statement, ask people to leave
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the capitol, sean hannity urged. >> tonight as the committee officially asks hannity to cooperate, congressman adam schiff joins me on that. then -- >> i only need 11,000 votes. fellows, i need 11,000 votes, give me a break. >> from threatening state officials to interfering with congress. >> and i hope mike pence comes through for us, i have to tell you. >> what we now know about trump's efforts to steal the election a year ago today. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, the congressional select committee investigating the conspiracy to overthrow self-governance and attack on the capitol has released text messages from fox news personality to the president of
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the united states and others in the days before and during january 6th insurrection. released in letter to sean hannity, asking he cooperate with their investigation. it's not first time hannity has been featured in the investigation surrounding january 6th. thanks to donald trump's former chief of staff mark meadows. in november meadows turned over a trove of about 9,000 documents, texts and emails he said were not privileged. before it was time to appear before the committee, he backed out but had already turned over thousands of documents. when the committee voted to hold mark meadows in contempt, members went through some of the material they pulled from the documents he willingly passed along, included texts sent to mark meadows in middle of the violent insurrection. vice chair of the committee, republican congresswoman liz cheney read many out loud.
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mark, protesters are literally storming the capitol, breaking windows and doors, is trump going to say something. texts from don jr. who didn't have dad's phone, had to text the chief of staff apparently. he's got to condemn this asap, and texts from laura ingram and brian kilmeade and of course, sean hannity. >> according to the records, multiple fox news hosts knew the president needed to act immediately. they texted mr. meadows and he has turned over those texts. quote, can he make a statement, ask people to leave the capitol? sean hannity urged. >> after she read the truly explosive texts, sean hannity sat in silence, ignoring what happened and had mark meadows on
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the show and asked him nothing about it. nothing to see here, just two bros broing it up. following day, issued this rebuttal. >> where is the outrage in the media over my private text messages being released again publicly? do we believe in privacy in this country? apparently not. i'm an honest, straightforward person, say the same thing in private that i say to all of you. liz cheney knows this, doesn't care, interested in one thing only, smearing trump and purging him from the party. >> i'm an honest straightforward person i say same thing in public as i say to you. clearly you didn't, that's the whole point. that's all he had to say. tonight more texts. as i said top of the show, come in form of a letter, sent to sean hannity from the january 6 committee asking him to cooperate in their investigation. read you big chunks because the contents are really something.
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quote, the select committee has information in its possession indicating you had advance knowledge regarding president trump and his legal team planning for january 6. it also appears you were expressing concerns and providing advice to the president and certain white house staff regarding that planning. you also had relevant communications while the riot was under way and in days thereafter. the letter says the committee has dozens of texts about trump's efforts to contest the outcome of the election, including one from hannity to meadows less than a week before the insurrection reading quote, we can't lose the entire white house counsels office. i do not see january 6 happening in the way he is being told. go to florida and watch joe mess up daily. stay engaged. when he speaks, people listen.
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go get him slugger. that's him warning him that january 6th is not going the way he thinks it will and is being told it will and he should step aside. few things to say about that. he's right, you go sean. but also prompts the question, what did hannity know about the plan? we can't lose the white house counsels office? someone is looping him in. night before the riot hannity sent texts saying quote i'm very worried about next 48 hours. referencing counting of the electoral votes and pence pressure, white house counsel will leave. again, he's well-sourced, this sean hannity. for some reason hannity felt the white house counsel would leave, and we have reporting they had threatened to do that. what did hannity know? committee writes quote, it
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appears from other text messages you may have had a conversation directly with president trump on the evening of january 5th and perhaps other times regarding his planning for january 6th. sean hannity may have been talking to donald trump the night before it happened. what did they discuss? other part made my head turn, hannity may have been talking to members of the cabinet about possibly removing him from office. later on january 6th, you texted to meadows' press coverage relating to potential effort by members of the president's cabinet to remove him under the 20th amendment. secretaries devos and chao resigned as did members of the staff. we would like to question you regarding conversations you had with mr. meadows and others about removing the president under the amendment. let that sink in for a second. was sean hannity having
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discussions with trump's chief and staff and others about removing trump? boy, you think you know a guy. bad as all that is, worried as sean hannity seems to have been about donald trump, last text says he was worried about trump on the 6th. spoke on january 10th before sending this message to meadows and jim jordan of ohio. guys, we have a clear path to land the plane in nine days. he can't mention the election again, ever. i did not have a good call with him today and worse i'm not sure what is left to do or say and don't like being left knowing if it's clear or understood. ideas? >> idea that sean hannity was truly appropriately worried about what trump would do should scare all of us, because it sure looks like he knew more about the plot than any of us, and
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this is just the beginning. letter reads very much like a warning shot. explosive, obviously but really just a preview of the stuff they have. sean hannity knows what else they have presumably and with that leverage, committee is asking nicely for sean hannity of fox news to cooperate. congressman adam schiff who serves on the committee joins me right now. what do you make of this? >> well, that he knows a great deal that should be shared with the committee and the american people about planning before the 6th, about conversations or text messages on the 6th, about things after the 6th of january that he was plainly concerned, that he may have been concerned among other things that white house counsels office would potentially en masse leave office if trump persisted in
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whatever they were plotting. clearly he has very relevant information. we're not interested in his political commentary or what he does on fox but the communications he had around the 6th that shed light on this effort to overturn the election, and he knows a great deal. >> let me just follow up on that. there's a big preamble in the letter, saying we respect the first amendment and journalism and your right to free expression, we're not after you for any of that. glad you said that, but could argue you're slicing the salami thin. if government body got a hold of my sources, in this you're a reporter, in this -- my texts don't sound like that. telling anybody to land their plane. but there's argument to be made that this is the stuff that robust free press should protect from the eyes of government.
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>> first of all, we're asking him to come in voluntarily. there's nothing about his responsibilities with the show that would preclude him from coming in to answer questions. go to role as advocate and someone the president would rely on for advice, nothing journalistic. nothing to preclude him from coming in, unless he doesn't want to share with the country what he knows. we're interested in fact witness, not anything covered by first amendment. i appreciate what you're saying. we're very careful about that as well. >> it's striking, the tone here. i think one of the things that we have learned and has been useful in some ways, the committee releasing the tidbits it has, just reminding everyone that everyone aside from trump and tiny coterie were freaked
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out by all of this, including it appears sean hannity. i have to note though, this is how he -- january 5th, texting i'm worried about the next 48 hours, seems to know that white house counsel, as far as i know not reported at the time. subsequently seen reported they threatened to resign if he pulled off this fa contactta plan. this is the reporting the day before. >> later we'll preview tomorrow's massive pro-trump march in washington, hear from senator ted cruz leading effort to force election audit. big crowds apparently showed up to point where the west wing could hear music and chanting of the people there already, all kicks off in the morning tomorrow. >> sean, that's right.
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tomorrow is important day. we have an obligation, i believe, to protect the integrity of the election and to protect the integrity of the democratic system. >> striking how many people are facilitating this in public as they're privately ringing alarm bells about where it's headed. >> exactly right. it is really i think quite shocking, the contrast of what is said publicly and privately. but even more striking is you see the alarm from some of the former president's closest, most conservative allies, striking alarm in and around january 6th and contrast that now with what you hear on that same network he appears on, which is trying to whitewash the whole thing. that to me is also quite shocking. let me reread this, after january 6th has happened,
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widespread, almost unanimous consensus it was an abomination and dark, dark day, and you've got guys -- this is two members -- meadows and jordan, we have a clear path to land the plane in nine days, he can't mention the election again, ever. ideas? guess what, trump won that battle. their plan was you can't talk about this ever again because it's so toxic and so aberrant and offensive to american democracy and such a dark day. trump ignored them, kept talking and everyone is back in the boat. >> you're absolutely right. it's not just fox personalities like hannity and maybe others, look at legislative leadership in congress. mccarthy putting his finger to the wind immediately after the attack of that day, blaming trump, vigorous statement of
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condemnation by mitch mcconnell, then both coming around. mccarthy within a matter of days down to mar-a-lago, kissing the ring, begging forgiveness, and others like hannity and carlson singing a very different tune now. trump did show that if he couldn't shoot someone in the street he could lead an insurrection and still get people to follow him. >> we will be i imagine seeing more of this or public testimony. when are we going to see that? >> within a matter of weeks, planning a series of hearings to bring the public along with what we're hearing. you can tell from the text messages we have learned a great deal and want to share that with american people, do it in appropriate way, to tell the story of what happened, but also in way we're not compromising
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our further fact finding. but i would imagine those hearings will start within a matter of weeks. >> congressman adam schiff, thank you very much. >> thank you. bring in president of media matters, progressive media watchdog group and eastern district of michigan. angela, the theme here, unintentionally funny. big, embarrassing revelation for hannity and ingram is that they were correctly opposed to the coup, and tried to do what they do behind the scenes to make it not happen. they were prematurely anticoup. being anticoup is no longer ideologically acceptable position. reason it causes them embarrassment is because behind the scenes in private they were
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correct on one of the key moral questions in american democracy. sorry. i think we're -- there you go. >> all right. they simultaneously were facilitating the coup and immediately afterward started to retcon the circumstances around it. on his radio show, peter navarro called in to hannity's show on radio, had him on, talking about 6th one of the biggest days in history, likened to washington crossing the delaware, which if you remember, a surprise attack. there was lot of context what hannity may have been hearing off air to give some alarm, why we're seeing the text messages
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leak out now. >> it's good point, amount of playing with fire in this period is off the charts. gosh, looks like stuff is burning, desperate texts behind the scenes and then lighting off the fireworks that night. barbara, you've overseen investigations, fact finding enterprises in role as u.s. attorney. what do you think is the significance in terms of the development of the investigation? >> well, i think documents can be an absolute gold mine because people will tell you one thing but documents can really show you what was in their mind and what was happening at the time. looking at text messages they apparently received from mark meadows can really bring in a lot of other players and show the level of alarm they had. some of the things in the letter talk about it appears you were talking to donald trump, appears you were aware that white house counsel members were preparing to resign en masse. appears you had advanced knowledge about the attack on january 6th.
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please come talk to us about that, we want to learn more. makes it difficult for people to wiggle away when you've got documents that show what was happening in realtime. it's important key to any white collar investigation. this one a little bit of white collar and awful lot of street crime involved. >> the call on the 5th, mention of the white house counsel is really interesting to me, angelo, we didn't know about that at the time. subsequently learned huge showdown, coup within a coup, jeffrey clark going to team up to decapitate leadership at doj to send out letters to georgia saying election is tainted. if you want to send trump electors, have at it. and only thing that stops that is the threat of that resignation. no one knew that at the time
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except apparently it had gotten out to sean. >> and it's really significant. aside from the substantive part of it, obliterates his idea he was engaging in journalism or was part of his job. exposes him as operative, type of adviser. people used to tongue in cheek refer to him as donald trump's chief of staff. this is the kind of information that chief of staff would hold to their chest and person in the media would absolutely put out there, big and explosive story. that's big part about this. obliterates his claim this undermines his job or role as investigative journalist. >> was pretty big scoop he sat on and i bet he's bummed he didn't get to own that scoop. big question here is what the public portion of this might look like, as schiff talked about it. seemed to me when he said we've
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learned a lot, i've come to believe they have. every interview i've done with them, it's clearer and clearer to me, for whatever stonewalling they've done, a lot of people have talked to them. >> sounds like talking to many of the members of pence's team, his chief of staff and key aides. may want to talk to pence himself, if not, he's not blocking their testimony. sounds like they're telling them a lot. what i heard congressman schiff say, they want to put together public hearings to show the highlights and bring the public along with the committee. whenever you conduct interview with someone, mike pence's chief of staff, probably spend 8 to 15 hours talking to them but only an hour of value. at public hearings can present the key testimony as opposed to having it lost in the mass of
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details. >> thank you both. one year ago today, donald trump's desperate efforts to overturn the election and remain in office against the will of the voters was under way. lot we didn't know at the time came to light later giving account leading up to assault on the nation's capital. from local election workers all the way up to the vice president. president. and service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪
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one year ago today, january 4, 2021, a monday, first business day after the holidays. just over two weeks from inauguration day, two days from congress's certification of the electoral counting. one big story that monday. blaring on the "new york times," on tape, trump pushes georgia to quote, find votes. everyone was rightfully talking about the recorded phone call of then president donald trump trying to pull off a coup, steal the election in georgia by bullying the secretary of state there. "washington post" had received a copy and published on the 3rd and donald trump asked raffensperger to find him enough votes to win to flip him
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georgia. >> i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. what are we going to do here? i only need 11,000 votes. fellows, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. >> this time last year, we knew about that, it was everywhere. but so much more coup related plotting and planning going on. another headline that went under the radar from the associated press. trump appointed u.s. attorney resigns in georgia. top federal prosecutor in atlanta, a big deal job, abruptly left his job in the wake of the trump call one day before the runoff georgia senate elections. statement did not say why he was leaving, what he plans to do next. seemed odd at the time. we now know why.
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it was what it looked like, white house forced him to resign because president trump is upset he wasn't doing enough to investigate his claims of fraud. senior official called him, official said mr. trump was furious there was no investigation related to election fraud and president wanted to fire mr. pak. he confirmed the story reportedly to the senate judiciary committee in august. something else fishier going down the same day we did not know about at the time and didn't find out about it until just a few weeks ago. january 4th, emissary from the trump campaign paid a visit to ruby freeman, worked in election office and became a target of slew of false accusations about
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fraud. donald trump brought up her name 14 times, referring to her as known political operative who stuffed the ballot boxes. one-time publicist for kanye west showed up and threatened her, said must confess to the allegations or would go to jail. part of the coordinated campaign to keep president trump in power against the will of the american people. allies were doing their part on national tv. on fox news, senator hawley alluded to more fraud going on ahead of the 6th. >> what are you trying to do, trying to say as of january 20th that president trump will be
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president? >> that depends on what happens on wednesday. this is why we have the debate -- >> no it doesn't, the states by the constitution certify the election, they did certify it. by the constitution, congress doesn't have the right to overturn the certification. >> in private at white house we know that donald trump was meeting with vice president mike pence attempting to convince him to thwart the law and steal the election for him. abc news reported that trump made clear to pence he expected him to use role as president of the senate to deny biden the presidency in the joint section. that evening in rally, trump put pressure on pence again. >> i hope mike pence comes through for us. i have to tell you. i hope that our great vice president, our great vice president comes through for us. he's a great guy. of course, if he doesn't come
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through, i won't like him quite as much. no, mike is a good guy. >> heard it a year ago, i don't know if it sunk in that donald trump was plotting a coup out in the open, deadly serious about retaining power. we do not have that excuse anymore. anymore. you're never responsible for unauthorized purchases on your discover card. for people living with h-i-v, keep being you. and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. research shows people who take h-i-v treatment every day and get to and stay undetectable can no longer transmit h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur,
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>> i hope that our great vice president, our great vice president comes through for us. he's a great guy. of course if he doesn't come through, i won't like him quite as much. >> pence didn't come through in the end but electoral count not only way that trump was trying to stay in power. as mark bowden and matthew teague show in "the steal," it was only ordinary americans that democracy managed to survive. mark bowden and matthew teague, authors of the new book, join me
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now. there's great reporting. thought i would go to each of you, there's a lot in here, we just did the version up in washington, d.c., and in the white house and capitol, so mark and then matthew, what most surprised you, what did you uncover that was happening in various states? mark, you go first. >> i was surprised by how concerted the effort was, basically the trump organization sent lawyers and activists to the six swing states where the vote was close. this was very concerted effort that filed 60-some lawsuits, organized demonstrations, pressure campaigns. trump was on the phone with local and state elected officials, it was not as slapdash as what happened on january 6. and i think i was also very
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pleasantly surprised to learn that the state and local officials, man of them republicans, many of them trumpists, refused to be bullied and cajoled into messing with the results of the election. >> the level of coordination here, got receptive voices at local level, pressure coming, people sometimes traveling to the states to try to make this happen not just in washington but at state level as well. >> yeah. you mentioned ruby freeman, the election worker in georgia who was approached by publicist working in some capacity with kanye west, that's something we found out and story we broke in the book. it was just a level of harassment that was poured out on these election workers who
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were not in it for a lot of money, just there to do civic duty, and there was coordination internationally to heap pain on these people's lives. >> yeah, this sort of mob mentality, you know, the way that these people were deluged, particularly ruby freeman and i think her daughter, deluged with death threats and gabe sterling who worked for raffensperger at one point saying cool it, someone is going to get hurt, and someone did january 6th, that came to fruition. but other part, ultimately we think the guardrails were -- mike pence wouldn't go along, white house counsel threatened to resign, but you document the guardrails at local level, including like you said, trump supporting republicans who just
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when faced with doing the wrong thing or right thing, do the right thing and stick by it. >> yeah, chris, for better or worse in america, elections are not conducted by federal agency in washington, d.c., they're conducted by your neighbors and my neighbors, every community across the country. and these folks take it very seriously, the responsibility seriously. and i think that a lot of the pressure being put on them was coming from people, including at very highest levels, who had very little understanding how elections are run in the united states. i really think the most significant effort that was made to overturn the election had to have been made in the states, had to be made with local and state officials, with whom was the responsibility for certifying the election results in their states. and these people, to a man and woman, pretty much held firm.
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they refused to falsify the results of the election. i think that speaks well. american people not as dishonest as donald trump would like them to be. >> play example of that, michigan republican canvasser, van langenveld came under enormous pressure not to certify in michigan and did. play what he said november 3, 2020, embodies the civic spirit that saved the day. take a listen. >> had a clear, legal duty to certify the results of the election as shown by returns given to us. we cannot and should not go beyond that. as john adams once said, we're a government of laws, not men, and this board needs to adhere to that principle here today.
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this board must do its part to uphold the moral law and comply with our legal duty to certify this election. i will be supporting the motion. >> matt, aaron van langevelde is among a number of officials turfed out because he did the right thing by the local gop. removed from the board. raffensperger is facing a primary challenge. been a lot of motion to go after the people who held the line last time so they're not there next time. >> there in michigan, a longtime county clerk who made a mistake on election day, accidentally shifted 3,000 votes from trump to biden, wasn't computer savvy, made a mistake. one of those votes probably her own, she voted for trump. she quickly corrected the
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mistake within a few hours but by the time she did, there were private jets on the way, teams working with trump coming to her office, turned her life inside-out and she's resolved to not run again to be county clerk. people whose birth certificate she signed accused her of being unpatriotic and un-american and much worse. there's a cost to telling the truth. >> mark bowden and matthew teague, "the steal: the attempt to overturn the 2020 election and the people who stopped it" is out now. many thanks to you both. trump's endorsement of authoritarian role model, what it reveals about maga party's vision of america. next. maga party's vision of america. next ife to the flavor-fullest? heck yes. panera. live your yes. now $1 delivery.
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coup, now the 8:00 p.m. host and work to undermine democracy here and abroad. it's not uncommon for a cable news show to take the show on the road, broadcasting from swing states for election or natural disaster, before the pandemic, would do it all the time. in august, fox news host tucker carlson spent an entire week anchoring from budapest, hungary, just to be like hungary is awesome, glowing endorsement of life in hungary under aspiring authoritarian prime minister, ruled hungary more than a decade, worked to transform the country into what he proudly calls illiberal democracy. cut immigration, limited power of the free press and wrote
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election laws in his favor, transformed hungary into one bordering on one-party rule and criticized by european countries for undermining the law. something of a hero for those on the american right who harbor authoritarian dreams, listen to what tucker had to say about him. >> of the nearly 200 different countries on the face of the earth, precisely one of them has elected leader who publicly identifies as western style conservative, victor orban. he thinks family are more important than banks. believes countries need borders, for saying this out loud, orban has been vilified.
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>> every leader on earth thinks that countries need borders, that's not what is going on. tucker carlson is not the only fan boy on the american right. donald trump, former president, endorsed the leader. writing viktor orban loves his people, stopping illegal immigration, creating jobs, trade and should be allowed to continue to do so in upcoming election. he has my complete support and endorsement for re-election as prime administer, articulating vision of end of american democracy by endorsing a guy doing it in another country. when conservatives say they want to use the power of the state to defang liberal society, believe them. i'll talk to expert and the danger they represent in the u.s., next. danger they represent in the u.s., next
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literally wrote the book on right wing authoritarian man. and dismantle the numbers to keep themselves in power. discussing vladimir putin and the a hero to a portion of the american conservative movement. who admire his willingness to subvert democratic conventions in order to pursue a far right political agenda. and tracks the ways in which american right wing mirror those groups working to dismantle liberal democracy in europe and abroad. one year ago today we were learning more about donald trumps behind the scenes coup attempt. he wrote an article. desperate attempts to cling to power. trump followed authoritarian. and fitting he would end up like histories best known autocrats.
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trying to escape the reality of his defeat. and ruth joins me now. ruth, i thought maybe we would start with the significance of him. an important figure in europe. the european right in the context of the european union and post liberal world. and for american conservatives. what should people know about what he has done in hungary? >> victor is the poster boy of the new global right. and he's tried hard to make budapest and hungary. the access 2.0. his policies are like a checklist of what the gop kind of inspires to. he homo phobic. transphobia. he banned gender study in 2018. as of 2020 you can't be a person
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bureaucratically if you are not man or woman. he's domesticated the media. and we don't hear about people being poisoned or falling out of windows. he's palettable than putin. he uses a huge amount of pressure and economic and promises to make peoples lives difficult economically. so for example, hundreds of media companies quote donated their assets to a foundation run by one of his cronies. example of the pressure tactics. and pioneered this kind of electoral democracy -- autocracy. you don't ban elections. you hold them but fix them. control the judiciary. the control the electoral apparatus so the results are the ones you need to stay in power. that may sound familiar if we have been following with the gop wants to do. >> what is your reaction to trump coming out and endorsing
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him from his weird exile. sort of out of nowhere. and what it means. it's not surprising. but it strikes me as forthright in terms of what aspirations are. >> so, trump it's interesting he identifies with him. because he was voted out of power. a much longer time frame. he's an opportunist. like trump. and he was a centrist and voted out and spent time remaking himself as a rightist. he saw where the win was blowing and got in. and he determined that he would never leave again. and so he's proceeded to kind of severely damage democracy. he's also a client of putin. endorsing him, trump is sending a message to putin. so there's that going on as well. and it goes also to the gop embrace of hungary and sees the
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president as our future. c pack will be there. and pence who is not the biggest global traveler trotted over to budapest. to talk about how he hoped an abortion rights would be taken away in america. and tucker karlson spent a week there broadcasting chlts trump endorsement is in line with this kind of republican administration. >> i will say that i don't know why he went there. i have the thought of like maybe we need a week of themed shows about like why the south of spain is an awesome spot. for future liberal democracy. on nbc's dime. nice work if you can get it. what are the sort of lessons i guess from his rise? in terms of how institutions have been shaped by it. >> well, he's been able to use
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pressure in a very effective way. and he's got this kind of crony capitolism. what's so maddening about what his whitewashing is he styled himself as defender of white christianity. so he's antimigrant. antisemitic. obsession with george sor sorks. the defender of christianity. all the way back to midevil. with statues and saints. tucker did not say he has persecute td hundreds of churches that are not in line -- not run by his loyalists. he's this classic autocrat in that regard. we're not hearing about is preying on business. he doesn't do this to the extent putin does. many people with profitable business the state has come calling. they have come calling and pressure to sell your asset just like i talked about the media
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properties that were pressured to be donated. so the state is a predator. and some people call it a mafia state. for that reason. >> ruth, thank you so much for your time. >> pleasure. that is all in on this tuesday night. rachel maddow starts now. >> good evening. much appreciated. thanks for joining us this hour: once again we're having a weird one. in terms of a news night. tonight the january 6 investigation has written to a cable news host to ask him to preserve his communications related to the january 6 attack on the capitol. including his communications with former president trump and others at the trump white house. they are asking him to come in for a tribed interview. -- transcribed interview. voluntarily. they're not subpoenaing him. that prospect looms