tv Ayman MSNBC January 9, 2022 9:00pm-10:00pm PST
insurrection. i'm going ask alana and justin cave, sister and brother-in-law to roseanne boylan who died during the resurrection, what accountability would look like for them today. plus, imagine introducing yourself to your colleagues while hiding she is going to join us live to share her story. then as we were just discussing their new text revealed the even more concerning influence that fox news show host, sean hannity, had on the previous administration. we are going to break it down with our sunday night panel. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. get started. so with every day that has passed since the january 6th attack, it has become more and more clear just how damaged we ours a country are.
the insurrection expose but the deepening fault lines in the population. and cracks in the very structure of our democracy. it opened a wound marion knee of us want to heal from but find ourselves very honestly, quite unable to. a sentiment that president joe biden reiterated on thursday, on the anniversary of the attack. watch. >> the way we have to heal, you have to recognize the extent of the moon. you cannot pretend. this is serious stuff. you have to face it. that is what great nations do. they face the truth. deal with it and move on. >> president biden is right here. how can we heal when our cries for justice and accountability have largely gone on answered? when the people in the party who stood to benefit from overturning the election result refused to even acknowledge the reality of what happened on that thing? when after a year of investigation, no one has been held accountable outside of
some of the foot soldiers in trump's mob? national healing process is necessary. don't get me wrong. but as i found out over the past year, it is also something that the families who lost loved ones on that day are also struggling with. this is roseanne boyle. she is one of the five people who died at the capitol on january six. although i didn't know rosen personally, we both came from the same hometown. we went to the same high school. a year ago to this day, her brother in law, justin, who was a friend of mine in high school reached out to me on facebook. and asked if i'd be willing to hear her story. that sparked a yearlong investigation into the circumstances surrounding her death. now, in the months before january six, her family and friends believed that she had fallen deeper and deeper into the qanon conspiracy theory world. undergoing a rapid, radicalization. they have no other way to explain how she went from a political woman, who was devoted to her extended family. into a hard-core supporter of donald trump.
not in the months since rosen stepped, her family has struggled to find answers as to how exactly she died. it is a question that a lot of people in this country have. now, according to the medical examiners office it was because of a prescription drug overdose. a conclusion that didn't make sense to the family. given the video evidence from that they. as the republican party has tried to distort the narrative of the january 6th attack, rosen's family has had to deal with her death being used for political and by the republican party. much like our national search for healing and accountability for the family's efforts to uncover the truth, often left them with more questions than answers. joining me now are adjusted and lana, they have this for several live on tv. they are sister in law of roseanne boyle, who, as i mentioned died at the capitol. guys, thank you so much it's good to see you. lana, i know it's been a year since her sister died. we just came after the holiday season, we have talked about this in the past, you are
lying. but tell us how you and your family are doing. what were the holidays like this year without her? what did you tell your children. when you were very close to her and? >> yes, this last six years have been very difficult. you know we went straight from thanksgiving to christmas to new year's to the anniversary. so it was really hard for all of us in the family. our oldest daughter who is six wanted us to say that christmas just wasn't the same without roseanne. and then our youngest daughter who is five had mentioned that all she wanted for christmas was roro, to be back. it was pretty difficult to explain to them that that's not how it works. and i would tell them all about it one day. but, yes, it was awful.
>> we went out of town for january six and we had some press requests and decided to turn the television off and try to spend some time together as a family. for me it was hard watching lana's parents on january six. you could see it on their face having to wrestle with the memories from a year ago this week when this tragedy happened. >> yeah. >> it was really difficult. >> i was going to say, i appreciate you taking the time to take with us this evening. i know how difficult it is for your family, so i do appreciate you joining this evening to talk about this. justin, as i mentioned it's been a year to the days since you actually reached out to me in the immediate aftermath of roseanne's death. and you, yourself, you made a lot of headlines when you called for the 25th amendment to be invoked against president trump. how do you feel about that a year on? do you have any regrets for it? do you still stand by that given everything that has
played out since then? >> i do. it was really difficult. i actually have done television in the past myself. but nothing will ever prepare you for losing a loved one this way. and we had every major media press publication an outlet in this country, and in seven or eight other countries. the reason that i reached out to you is because, i know you, and all the other press that reach out to us i did in play soccer with them as a kid like i did with you. so for me that was comforting. >> lana, on a national level there hasn't really been any accountability for what happened that day. some of the low-level rioters have been punished. but no one at the top has been held accountable. what would accountability look like to you and your family, to your parents? both, for what happened to roseanne. but also for the broader riot insurrection itself.
>> well, i think that the people who have been saying the big lie, the perpetrators, the enablers of the big lie need to be stopped somehow. you know, the social media has made a huge platform for them to be able to spread all this disinformation and purposely targeting people. so i just wish that there was a way that it could be stopped on a level of individual as well -- >> -- what we really want to accomplish is to try to have something positive come from it and give them the circumstances that is going to be really hard to do. but we don't want to see this happen again in our country. we don't want this to happen to somebody else or to another family. and i think that is why we agreed to do the podcast to try and shed some light on roseanne
so that maybe there is other families out there or other people that could recognize this or if they see something similar happen. the main thing is, we don't want this to happen again. >> yes, and it's a really good point justin. you definitely talk about trying to prevent this from happening again. and to some extent, you had the republican party which continues to downplay and brush january six under the rug. even some of the people who originally condemned trump for what happened that they have backtracked. and i'm sure you've seen them as well. some of his fellow republican colleagues. are you surprised by this? and as somebody who lost a loved one to this, you know, conspiracy theory, but at the same time, to the big lie, are you insulted by their attempts to downplay the event were roseanne was killed? >> you know, it is disheartening. i am glad to see that there is a january six committee. the last special committee i
could remember's been quasi-. so to see congressional republicans called this the on select committee, or to kind of shrug of subpoenas it's a little disheartening. because i think that is the effort that we need to figure out what really happened here. but yeah, it's really difficult. we'll not and i have asked and watched about so many videos. so many hours of the scenes from the steps were roseanne died. it is hard to call it a peaceful protests. and for us personally, we don't know what accountability looks like. but we all have to try to work together to figure out how this happened, why this happened and what we're going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. >> lana, since the podcast came out, i know that there's been some new footage that has emerged in the area where roseanne died in the tunnel there, on the capitol. i know that you have been really spending a lot of time trying to piece together the
final minutes of what happened to your sister. did you learn anything new from this footage that came out? what does that reveal to you about her final minutes and does it bring you any closer to some of the answers that you're looking for? >> it doesn't bring me any closer to the answers. but i was very surprised to see her actually inside of the tunnel. a lot further in than i had originally thought. so that was really hard for me to see because she was so claustrophobic, he did people being around her. so even if she was just did not tunnel without a lot of people, that would be unlike her. but then you have all these people surrounding her. it was just so uncharacteristic of her. it was sad to see that something had that much power over her to think that that was necessary. >> right, where she would end up on the steps of the capital
building during electoral process on my line. that wasn't like roseanne. >> it seems so out of character from her, and what we've learned from the past year. does it change your perception of her are all, and when she believed went and why she went up to the capitol on that day lana? >> no, it doesn't change. i know that roseanne has always wanted to help people, and that is one of the things that i tell our daughters. one day i'll explain this to you but all you need to know for right now is that roseanne loved you so much and that she was trying to help you and other children so it doesn't change. >> and roseanne was into this qanon thing and we hear these words lately on the news like radicalization, extremism, and i think it's safe to say right now that at this point in our country we do have a problem
with extremism. and it's going to look different for different people. me personally, for the last year, i have been trying to wrestle with my own thoughts and emotions and feelings, anger even. and i think that the trauma for a lot of people can be a path to extremism. and we really just need to address some of the issues that we've been having as a country moving forward. over the next couple of years we're going to move into the midterm elections and the next presidential elections, and i really wanted to say to everybody, you know, i have a lot of conservative friends and family. half of our family's conservative, and half of our family aren't. my friends but our conservative think that i'm liberal. and my liberal friends think i'm conservative. but what i want to really say is whether you cast a vote for the republican party or the democratic party, we are not talking about the enemy. you are talking about your friends, your family members, your coworkers and your neighbors. and i think it's important that we all remember that as we move forward together as a family or a community or a country over the next couple of years.
>> justin and lana, i just want to say thank you very much to you. i know how difficult this time of year has been for you. and thank you for letting me tell your story at the same time. i do want to tell everyone if you haven't already, be sure to check out the msnbc original podcast american radical. it is a five-part investigation into roles and boil life and radicalization and her ultimate death at the capitol. all five episodes are out now wherever you get your podcast. or you can scan the qr could on your screen now. still ahead, many americans watched the insurrection play out live on tv, but imagine being inside the house chamber at the time. i'm going to speak with freshman congresswoman, sarah jacobs, about her experience, next. plus, ted cruz came under fire from the right after accurately labeling the capitol assault, a terrorist attack. i'll take a look at why we should be labeling the
insurrectionists us domestic terrorist. but first, richard louis is here with the latest on that massive and heartbreaking story out of new york city. >> thanks him, and we have the latest on calls and casualties, the 120 saw injuries on all 19 floors. some 200 firefighters were at the five a long fire. our nbc kathy's part, has more. >> officials say that this is one of the deadliest fires in new york siri. the fire broke out shortly after 11:00 this morning and was knocked out around 1:00. this was a five alarm fire and did some extensive damage. the fire officials are telling us that it's somewhere on the second or third floor. and while the fire spread quickly, so did the smoke. 19 confirmed dead, nine of them being children. ten adults. several people are suffering from smoke into location at this hour. right now, officials say that this is under investigation but earlier reports suggest that the fire was sparked by a
malfunctioning space heater. tonight, the community is warning that this is a largely immigrant population. and the red cross is on site to register at this place. back to you. >> cathy, thank you for that. and that we're following the tragic death of the comedian, bob -- according to the orange county florida county's office, he was found dead in his hotel room earlier today. detectives found no sign of foul play or drug use. more aim in with even more hidden, right after this. hidden, right after this abreva can get you back to being you in just 2 and a half days. be kinder to yourself and tougher on your cold sores. [sfx: radio being tuned] welcome to allstate. ♪ [band plays] ♪ a place where everyone lives life well-protected. ♪♪ and even when things go a bit wrong, we've got your back.
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in office. january 6th was my first time ever to the house gallery. my team had to walk me there because i didn't know how to get through the capital yet. i will never forget the buzzing of the escape hoods, the fear when i couldn't open the packaging, the sound of the doors closing and being locked.
introducing myself to my colleagues as we were hiding under the chairs. -- grabbing my hand. my high heels ready to take on the riders who were banging on the doors behind us. >> that was california representative sarah jacobs. last january jacobs was one of the 64 house freshman who arrived in washington d.c. for the first time, eager to serve their country and constituents. new job jitters we quickly take a turn when days into the refreshments term as you heard there, they knew workplace would become the scene of a violent and deadly insurrection. congresswoman sarah jacobs joins me now. congresswoman, thank you so much for your time, it has been a year, how do you feel a year later? what reflections have you had about what this year has been for you? >> well thank you so much for having me on. obviously this last week was a
very tough anniversary for our country, and for me personally. i am very grateful that i had a therapist prior to january 6th of last year that i have worked with to process the trauma of what happened. and i think it is important to know that -- all collect trauma and hope that people are getting the help and support that they need. it really clarified for me the job, which is that it is not about the healthy disagreements we may have with each other as important as those are. it really is about whether we are doing what we need to do to protect and preserve our democracy. that is the job right now. >> you spoke to my colleagues at nbc news about how that day shape your view of the work that goes inside the capitol. in paris said, they tried to kill me here on my fourth day, of course i don't feel the same kinds of warm and fuzzies about this place.
talk to me a bit about that. how has your experience and the experience that you went through on january 6th impacted how you serve? what your priorities are as a congresswoman? >> yeah. it is obviously clouded everything. and the beginning it was hard to go back sometimes. that night after the attack i went into on the house floor and watch the rest of the proceedings. i felt like it was very important for me, not only because it was important that we did our constitutional duty, but i didn't have the last memory of that place being this catastrophic thing that had happened. and so for me it really highlights the -- importance of the work, highlights what we need to be doing. and it has taught me how fragile our democracy is, and how much more work we need to do. >> you previously worked at the state department dealing with extremism, actually in other
countries, did you ever think that something like this would happen, could happen here in the united states? and are we doing enough to prevent it from happening again, both on the prevention of radicalization and extremism, as well as an insurrection or attempted coup? >> you know i never thought it would happen here. i guess looking back it is clear that there were some extreme warning signs and fault lines that should have given us some clues that it might be possible. when we look at these kinds of political violence, what we often talk about is individuals who will mobilize around the fault lines is the society. so i think for me it is clear that we need to hold anyone accountable who incited, encouraged, or committed these acts of violence. when we look overseas it is clear that that immediate count ability from a first attempt is incredibly important and make sure we don't have future such attempts. but also, we will never really be able to move forward if we don't get to the truth of what
happened, and if we don't have an honest reckoning of our past as a country. but the gory, and the glory, and the racial injustice that has been through line of it all, so we can come together as a country and move forward with a common narrative. that is the only way we will be able to get to unity, and that is why i and my colleagues are focused on doing. >> do you congresswoman, ever regret running for office, because even before january the 6th serving in congress had become increasingly dangerous. in 2017 -- was shot at a congressional baseball game, you also have colleagues of yours like representative -- who received death threats almost daily. they have additional protection. did that ever make you say, what did i get myself into, why did i run for this position? >> look, it certainly is a difficult job. there have certainly been difficulties since january 6th as i have processed the trauma of what happened to me and our
country. but i also feel so honored that the people of the 53rd congressional district in california have been trusted me to help lead them in this historic time. i take that very seriously, and i focus on that every day when i go to work. >> let me ask you, finally, looking ahead to think what happened at the capitol will motivate people to come out in the midterms? how do you feel by your party's chances given that you are a year into, and everything that has played out, what you guys are trying to achieve, or the party is trying to achieve, what has been stonewalled by the republican so far, how do you think your party will do come in the midterms? >> look, i think it is incredibly important that we recognize that protecting our democracy is not a partisan thing. it is going to take all of us, regardless of our political party coming together and deciding that our democracy is worth preserving. i hope that voters when it
comes time will vote for candidates who support our democracy, and support our electoral processes and support the will of the people being what gets implemented regardless of their political party. i feel hopeful that we will see that. >> all right, california congressman sarah jacobs, thank you so much for your time, we are grateful we had a chance to spend some time with you this week. thank you. >> thank you. >> when we come back we will take a look at -- sean hannity's tax ahead of january six are actually terrifying. don't go anywhere. anywhere. ♪ limu emu and doug.♪ and it's easy to customize your insurance at libertymutual.com so you only pay for what you need. isn't that right limu? limu? limu? sorry, one sec. doug blows several different whistles. doug blows several different whistles. [a vulture squawks.] there he is.
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administration, with trump himself in the days surrounding the insurrection. the committee is actually bringing receipts to all this. and that same request they actually unveiled a trove of new text from hannity to trump's chief of staff mark meadows from that time. now if this sounds familiar, that is because last month the committee released a flurry of messages from hannity and other fox news personalities as part of the investigation. it appears their communication with the white house actually did not stop there, express secretary stephanie grisham has not revealed several hosts from the conservative network had a direct line to the white house residence. a former senior administrative official told the post trump which sometimes tile hannity and -- directly into oval office staff meetings. i don't know how many times have to say this, but this is not normal behavior for a news channel. so let's be clear here, fox news channel is not actually a
news channel at all. it is the communications arm of the republican party. under former president trump, the network excessively functioned as a state run media outlet. joining me now to discuss this is -- president of media matters a progressive media watchdog group, and been collins a senior reporter for nbc news covering this information and extremism online. -- testifying would raise serious constitutional issues concerning freedom of the press, funny enough, back in 2016 hannity declared on his own twitter account i am not a journalist, in reference to jack dorsey ceo of twitter. i'm a talk show host. >> yeah. i mean the argument here and some other revelations are totally -- in one of the was released and hannity had an enormous group, which was information about a supposed exodus in the white
house press counselor's office if trump had continue to move down the same -- path. that is explosive news especially at that time. reporting, sharing internally at the network, he actually did was a political operative would do and -- i think even the little bit that has been revealed so far totally obliterates any of those concerns as well as pretty long track record of trump functioning more like an operative. he wrote a campaign back in the summer of 2020 -- so i don't think that argument has any validity here. >> yeah, and ben, two angelos point air can fox viewers tell the difference between who is a -- journalist or a host. how does that line blurring be dangerous because at the end of the day, they are watching, they don't know that sean hannity knew about a possible coup, or possible insurrection at the capitol, potential violence at the capitol because he did not report on. at the end as angela was saying,
he is involved in crisis management. you see him appearing at rallies with trump. >> yeah, fox pr tries to dry a hard line between what happened in the daytime and nighttime on fox news. fox news prime to them as a different product, and their -- quota standing up for what is right. which is a pawn or whatever. but that line is increasingly thin. what to them as counseling republican candidates like donald trump and being a news network. that is the dishonesty here, -- knew this was bad, he knew what was happening on january 6th was a horrific thing and then attack on the capitol, and it was a riot that went too far at the very least. worst is an insurrection or a coup. but in the year since then, he has nothing but downplay it, and nothing but double down on donald trump. he was trying to -- couldn't get to him. nobody could get to him in time
really. that remains the unanswered question. >> angelo, there is a stark difference here between what these hosts are saying on air, and what they are saying in these text messages. it is a point that -- we were talking about at the top of the hour how this disdain and contempt they have for their viewers. why are they lying to their viewers? why are they saying one thing behind closed doors in private to officials, whether it is about january the 6th, whether it is about vaccines and covid, and what they are saying on air to their viewers? >> yeah, that is -- i don't use the word -- but it is a stunning level of deception for fox news. we have known that they have a political bias, they were working with trump, but what i think this little piece that we have really seen shows something that -- they know better. the show is very clearly that he knew better.
that is the part i find so disturbing about the whole thing. they clearly have contempt for their audience. 700 instances of them undermining the election in the first two weeks after it was called for biden. -- simultaneously became clear that -- we're going to be operationalize for something or behind the scenes trying to -- dial it back. that day, that night that he was sending those messages, he was promoting the rally, he had -- on his radio show who is telling people -- sneak attack from the revolutionary war. so he did know better, but it continued to push his audience down a path that he knew had some pretty high-risk. >> ben, i'm curious to get your thoughts, because you -- misinformation out there could this disconnect between public and private within fox just be a result of fox's attempts to try and edge out new competition like newsmax and
oan, which are even further to the right and then if you throw in websites and on my new sites that are even more to the right of those news channels. is this fox simply making a business decision for viewers and ratings that if we don't turn this way, if we don't offer viewers this more extreme perspective, we will lose our base to these more extreme outlets? >> yeah, i think the numbers tell the whole story. they made an attempt to distance themselves from donald trump in the weeks after the insurrection, it didn't work as people fled to newsmax and oan. people who watch oan specifically, those are people who don't want reality, they want things to confirm that they already believe. i don't think anyone who spends ten minutes watching -- it is a pathway to a different reality entirely. that is what happened in the months afterwards. i thought hey we can move forward with a different messenger, but largely the same thing that donald trump is
pushing. minus all this coup stuff. they realized it wasn't working they were going to keep hammering all these viewers, all these people on newsmax. they found newsmax or oan. >> absolutely a calculated choice because the horse left the barn a long time ago with a stuff. the inmates from the asylum. we don't know which expression you want to use here. but frankly they can't -- it is to -- trumpism has engulfed the party, he has engulfed right-wing media, and they can't get rid of it. it is too late. >> and i -- >> so angelo -- yeah go ahead. -- go ahead. >> yeah the question is really important because it doesn't just look back, it tells us where they are going. where they're going as they will be flocking more and more things from -- mainstream. so that conspiracy theory about the -- was percolating for months online before -- did a big segment about it, or even the fbi was involved in
the attack on january 6th. and just a couple days ago, he made ted cruz during his apology start to validate and reinforce that very conspiracy theory. so i think it means they will get even crazier, not just where they have been. >> yeah, and you are seeing some of the discourse of his way into comments made by people like ron desantis the governor of florida who -- january the 6th so you can see how the situation is going to spread in the year ahead. angelo carson, and ben, thanks to the both of, you greatly appreciated, great to see you. coming up progressives are celebrating the reignited -- supreme court but of course nothing is ever easy in a split senate. we will tell you about that next. ingredients, and fermentation. fermentation? yes. formulated to help you body really truly absorb the natural goodness.
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was reignited this week when the congressional progressive caucus -- like spending the bench. the judiciary act of 2021 originally introduced by house democrats last april would expand the court from nine feet to 13. the caucus's endorsement means that the judiciary act will now have the support of well over 100 house democrats. but in reality, don't hold your breath. the bill might be popular among progressives, but it is going to need a lot more democratic support to make it through congress. plus, as we know, it takes 60 senators to advance any legislation and democrats only have that slim majority. also weighing in on all of this, president biden supreme court commission it was reported last month that the commission does not plan to make a recommendation on whether to expand the bench or not. believe it or not. this is a major blow to those who actually support reforming the court. nevertheless, the timing of the caucus's endorsement is key, backing the bill at the start of the election year goes for
aggressive lawmakers heading into reelection campaigns fresh talking points. we will continue to keep an eye on this legislative effort and see how it advances as we edge closer to primary season. before we go to break, we have been following that deadly fire out of the bronx earlier which left 19 people dead including nine children. more than 60 others were injured, new york city mayor called this the worst fire the city has seen and some 30 years. investigators believe the fire was started by a malfunctioning space heater in a bedroom. we will keep you updated as we know more throughout this hour. and when we come back, why the justice department is avoiding domestic terrorism sentences were january six defendants. i will ask former senior director -- national security council about it. >> l abou it >> sed. you can be well-mannered. (man) oh, no, no, after you. wahoooo! (vo) you can be well-groomed.
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anniversary this week. it is an anniversary of a violent terrorist attack on the capitol. the way i phrase things this today, it was sloppy, and frankly dom. >> i don't buy that. >> all right, so i know that we have all had a lot of fun -- for his embarrassing display on fox, i mean honestly when you just watch that how could you not dunk on him. but the interaction between cruz and carlson also demonstrated just how far the right is willing to go to gaslight you into thinking that january 6th is not a domestic carrot act. the big clear here, the fbi defines domestic terrorism as violent criminal acts committed by individuals and your groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences such as those --
political religious or -- i emphasize the word political there. now with that definition in mind, how can anyone honestly look at that video from january 6th and call it by any other name than terrorism. what happened on january six was domestic terror and that is why it is important that the next time or you're crazy uncool or -- tries to call it anything but that we need to call out the hypocrisy joining me now is -- he is a senior director for counter-terrorism at the security council and a professor at the ford school of public affairs. thank you so much for joining us. from a big picture here we will get into the -- but from a big picture here do you agree that what we witnessed on january 6th was in fact domestic terrorism? was there any other way to look at it besides what i'm said? tell me if i'm wrong here? >> great to be with.
you yes absolutely fits the existing definition of terrorism. there is an actual statue under the patriot act that lays out a three-part definition of what is an act of domestic terrorism so the activity or a lot of the activities fits within that definition and president biden secretary mayorkas and a host of other officials have all labeled it an act of domestic terrorism so definitely fits the definition. >> so take me then through the process of why or how prosecutors choose whether to call the event itself an act of domestic terror, but then charge individuals with -- what we witnessed that day i know they are still building up their cases, but charges like trespassing and entering
congressional property or trying to disrupt -- excuse me -- congressional proceedings. but we are not seeing the term terrorism applied in the charges that are being leveled against these individuals. why do you think that is? >> so this is one of the really difficult aspects of the domestic terrorism issue in the united states versus the international one. so it is a complex legal framework to get through, but i will quickly try to get to some of the key things. there is no crime with domestic terrorism. likewise there is no risk for -- much like there is on foreign terror sides. that is why prosecutors can't bring material support charges against individuals aligned with different domestic extremist ideologies. because there is no list of these groups. so prosecutors have to use different federal laws to then bring charges forward, so if
you look at the -- over 725, that number always seems to get bigger every week none of those charges have the word terrorism, but there are other serious federal crime so that is something that prosecutors i assume would have to look at. when evidence do they have? what evidence can they bring forward? which of these charges will stick in court? and what is the potential as they gather additional information or individual cases. could they bring something forward under different cause called the -- what is known as the terrorism enhancement -- 37 different crimes under that statute. but so far under the crimes any inclination right now to bring any of these terrorism charges -- >> there are some in the muslim community, i am one of them who are looking at how some of
those people are being treated and are rightly thinking or black or brown or muslim instead of being overwhelmingly white the investigation, the prosecution, the sentences or sentencing excuse me, would look a lot different than what we are seeing right now. is that a fair point? >> yeah i personally don't think so if anyone -- and the fact that i was in the senior role in the u.s. government made me think with my own identity but with all that said, part of the challenge is that because the individuals being charged with the crimes for january 6th, because they are not part of four formal terrorist -- overseas that is why these more heavier sentences that you see homegrown extremism haven't been brought forward because the proud boys are not listed
as a domestic terrorism organization -- until the law changes if at all the same tool i don't think there is a -- racial bias here >> so should they? >> well again this is one of the really interesting the weights and this conversation about what more does a country need to do with respect to dealing with the domestic terrorism -- i have already argued for a while that this needs to whether a domestic terrorism organization look like and who would be in control and how would it be managed to make sure it is not abused -- the political will for that will not come through law, or where else would it come through. that is going to be a really
tough nut to crack, to get to this issue of is there racial bias and the way these cases are being handled right now. >> yeah, and of course when you are dealing with domestic concerns you rub up against the first amendment and freedom of speech you can say things anti government that doesn't necessarily mean you will act upon them. thank you so much. greatly appreciate your insights this evening. >> and thank you for making time for us at home. you contraction every -- back here on msnbc saturdays at eight and sundays at 9 pm eastern. make sure to follow us on twitter and tiktok at a man and we see it is a great way to keep up with upcoming, gas catch any highlights he might have missed from the shows, and a whole lot more. until we meet again, i'm ayman. ayman eed. how about a throwback? ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪
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