tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC January 19, 2022 12:00am-1:00am PST
justice and his refusal to wear a mask to protect his supreme court colleague. when all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes tonight the committee investigating the seditious conspiracy to overthrow the 2020 election has moved one step closer to donald trump himself. who by all accounts, is not close with many people. but for years, especially since the start of his political career there's been one man by his side. rudy giuliani. early in his own career in new york, giuliani made his name as a tough, hard charging, crime fighting prosecutor. would go on to head up one of the most trial courts in the country. the southern district of new york. that catapulted him to mayor. and despite intensely polarizing tenure as mayor, he nonetheless then rose to national prominence after 9/11. just weeks before he was sent to the office. he was even considered the front runner at one point to become president himself. but in the years since,
giuliani has devolved into something of a political punchline. even helping bring about trump's first impeachment, with his attempts to dig up dirt about the bidens in ukraine. and giuliani, perhaps more than anybody outside the government, worked to embed donald trump's january 6th coup. which led to donald trump's second impeachment. giuliani's efforts, culminated with a truly bizarre press conference at the four seasons, total landscaping in 2020, and today, the bipartisan committee investigating january 6th, has finally decided it needs to speak with giuliani. he was subpoenaed, along with his fellow look who attempting lawyers, jenna ellis, and trump campaign advisor boris epstein. giuliani, powell, and epstein were in the coming days, you might remember their faces in the footage. more than anyone, except for donald trump, maybe even more than him honestly, they worked to push the big lie of election fraud. and countless, deranged conspiracy theories. which of course, laid the
groundwork for the january six insurrection. according to the letter to giuliani from the committee quote between mid november 2020 and january six 2021 and thereafter, you actively promoted claims of election fraud on behalf of former president trump. and sought to convince state legislators to take steps to overturn the election result. according to witness testimony public reporting in december 2020, you urged president trump to direct the seizure of voting machines around the country after being told that the department of homeland security had no lawful authority to do so. according to public reporting on january 6th, and the days prior, you were in contact with then president trump. members of congress regarding strategies for delaying or overturning the results of the 2020 election. as for sydney powell, who pushed perhaps some of the most bananas conspiracy theories, for instance about venezuela and other former countries hacking the election. the committee writes quote, you urged president trump to direct
the seizure of voting rights around the country, to find evidence of foreign -- the committee, known that alice and epstein, worked to sow doubts in the election. in their letters, the committee notes, you publicly promoted claims that the 2020 election was stolen and participated in attempts to disrupt or delay the certification of the election results based on those allegations. now the committee is right. this is not a hidden plot. we know all of this is true, because we saw them do it right out in the open. >> the dominion voting systems. the smartmatic technology software. and the software that goes in other computerized voting systems here as well, not just dominion. were created in venezuela at the direction of hugo chavez, to make sure that he never lost an election after one constitutional referendum came out the way that he did not want to come out.
>> they stole the election, not the first one they stole. not the last one they are going to steal. we should do something about it. >> president trump was right that there was widespread fraud in this election, have at least six states that were corrected. if not more through the voting systems. we know president trump won in a landslide. >> all that is false, you know that is false. i feel do bound to say that after we play people making false claims. all false. what is interesting about this round of subpoenas is that they appear to be broadening the scope of the investigation. because they are not specific lee about that day. and about the attack on the capitol on january six. but instead, the ways in which trump's allies laid the groundwork for the insurrection to take place. because without the big lie of a stolen election. without giuliani and powell and alice out there beating the drums there would be no pretense to storm the capitol. it is notable that donald trump is still pushing that big lie. if anything, he is only got
more brazen about it over the last year. it is the subtext, if not the text behind his likely 2024 run. the election was stolen from him last time, so he is running to take back what is rightfully his. it's clear he's running up the same playbook again, just listen to him shut out. none other than boris epstein this past weekend. >> another one who's a real fighter, lawyer summer working on a lot of things. boris. most people call him epstein. i call him boris, epstein. because that's it, epstein. which is the way that they say in his original country. and he has been incredible as a fighter. boris high boris. boris epstein. i am glad he took that no on the pronunciation. >> as the committee points out, epstein worked to help overturn the last election, which makes in the type of fighter that trump needs to do all over
again. again, they are not fighting. congressman adam shift is a member of investigating january 6th. served for donald trump's first impeachment. he joins us now. let's talk about rudy giuliani, who was a central figure in both of these plots. that resulted in both impeachments. why do you think it is important that the committee sit down and talk to him here? . >> as you can see by the series of subpoenas would've issued overtime, by people in and around the administration. rudy giuliani was at the center of things was one of the most aggressive promoters of the big lie and the election he was involved in, trying to get state legislators to send alternate slates of electors to delay slates of electors. to me, most shocking claims are some of those that you just repeated chris. that is that they were involved in urging the president.
reportedly to serve voting machines, that's the kind of things that you see in the developing world. you don't see at least until now in the united states of america. so there is a lot that he could tell our committee. certainly a lot that we have uncovered already. but i think that he is a pretty central figure in all of this >> should be interpret the issues of subpoenas to mean that invitations for voluntary cooperation were rebuffed? >> you know, that is not always the case. generally we do seek volunteering cooperation to begin with. where we know that certain parties are very likely to be hostile. we do not waste time spending weeks trying to get their voluntary cooperation. and we've gone straight to subpoenas in some circumstances. you are right about some of the points we were making earlier that inquiry is broader than just what happened on a single day.
it is the multiple lines of effort to overturn the election, culminating in that attack on the capitol. but it is important to understand january six, to understand the context of all of these failed efforts to overturn the election. and then the last resort which we saw on the sixth, was violence. >> i didn't, know it's hard to keep track of what public information. there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of things moving up to that. this jumped out at me in the bush epstein letter. you reported to have participated in a call with former president trump on the morning of january 6th, in which options were discussed to delay the certification of election results, in light of vice president pence's unwillingness to deny or delay certification. i do not know if you track what is public and what is not, but what do we know about that phone call? >> you know, i try to track this public and what's not. but imagine, we have to err on the safe side in terms of the committee. but obviously, we would like to
know anything that went on during that call. what other options at that stage were being contemplated to try to overturn the election. and so, you know obviously if he was on that call will have a lot to tell us if he was part of that war room at the willard hotel would have a lot to tell us, and we hope that he will answer the subpoena. if not, as with the others, we'll have to figure out with the recourses. >> there is a number of documents that you have been seeking from a variety of sources. i just want to go through. to note here, bernie kerik did come in. talks to the committee provided batch of documents to the select committee. i raise that to know that obviously the people that don't comply, steve bannon mark meadows news items for obvious reasons. but the vast majority of people that you have wanted to talk to, you have talked to. including some people like bernie kerik that one might suppose wouldn't talk to you
and so much as he is an ally. or a loyalist to former president trump >> that's right, mr. kerik worked very closely with mr. giuliani it's a matter of public record and a great number of people are cooperating with us great many now i think have cooperated with us, but getting back to the point i was making earlier as we get to more and more significant witnesses, they are often closer and closer to donald trump. and therefore people that the former president is urging. and has some leverage over, in terms of getting them to refuse to cooperate. but we are, as you say, getting a lot of help. and sometimes, even less publicly known witnesses can offer some of the most important insights, but i cannot be more particular than that. >> yeah we should know, i don't know if we have the bureau.
of the infamous four seasons landscaping. press conference of rudy giuliani. but bernie kerik is in the shot. he is standing behind really giuliani. there is a matter of public record there. also some news breaking, just recently, that the national archives, which is in possession of, has pasty of, a document that the committee is seeking, related to the ex president while he was in office. intends to turn some of those over tomorrow at 6 pm. according to a doj letter. the docks were not covered by the d.c. circuit's administrative state. scotus supreme court hasn't acted on trump's emergency request yet. do you anticipate those actually being transmitted to you? >> i certainly hope so. and, we will have to see what happens between now and then. but i would certainly hope so. and, i would hope that the supreme court would very quickly resolved the litigation regarding the cause.
refused to take up the case from below. both religiously blanche and the executive branch are in agreement that the record should be provided. and it would be empathetic to a conservative court to disagree with those two branches of government. i think that the only reason they would do so is if they had now become nothing more than a partisan court. >> i couldn't help but notice how expeditiously this court moved to have full briefing, or arguments, and a full decision striking down the proposed testing, or vaccine mandate that the biden administration proposed. was just notable to me. that when motivated, they appear to have the ability to move quite quickly. i wondered if you know that we'll. >> yes, without a doubt. >> you've seen the other courts, the district court of appeal moved with great alacrity in our particular case. >> there is no reason that the supreme court, can't also particularly, when the law is so clear, taking favor of
taking up the case. so, i will hope that they will move with swiftness. >> finally, there is another subpoena that we found out about, which is phone records, again, third-party subpoenas that have found about through press reports. to tech companies that may be in possession of records. in this case, eric trump and kimberly go files phone records, subpoenaed by the january six committee. eric trump calling it in a statement, a witch hunt. and a one sentence statement, can you confirm that those statements have happened. >> i can't confirm any particular subpoenas, but i can't say that we have acknowledge that early on we sent letters preservation letters to these telecommunications companies. we have followed up with subpoenas. to request records in certain cases. and these records, they are not
the content of conversations who is the party of conversations. the duration but that can be very important evidence, and lead to additional witnesses. corroborate the evidence of witnesses. can tell she was in communications with whom while the attack was going on. so it can be very important. but in this case, i can only talk generally can confirm with respect to those particular people. >> finally, and i know that you are one member of a committee with multiple members. i don't know how the communications work here. but i just wonder if you have any indication so far from any of the subjects that these four subpoenas were issued today. about what they intended. i don't have any indication yet. i think we can anticipate certain things -- i think rudy giuliani's attorney has made some public comments some about him claiming executive privilege.
there are lots of activities that he was a witness to, in a participant to, that do not employ kate the attorney client privilege. or, where that privilege would be waived. so, much as with other witnesses -- we made it very clear, we weren't interested in his journalistic work on fox, if that's what you call that. there are plenty of facts that mr. giuliani and others, attorneys or otherwise, can testify to, that are not privileged, and we want to make sure that the committee has all of the facts that we can present to the american people. >> all right, congressman adam schiff. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> the attack on the capitol couldn't have happened without the constant drumbeat of baseless election fraud conspiracies. the trump allies facing subpoenas tonight were some of
the most high-profile team members in that effort. next, how donald trump's election fraud fanned the flames of the big lie. the many lawsuits that people are facing as a result. nyquil severe gives you powerful relief for your worst cold and flu symptoms, on sunday night and every night. nyquil severe. the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, stuffy head, best sleep with a cold, medicine. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps?
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january 6th happened, of course, at the capitol. today subpoenas from the committee is investigating that date, will be on the -- in washington, it's been a massive effort across the country, in the most leading up to the attack. one of the four members who just got subpoenaed, three of them spent weeks, traveling from state to state spreading trump's big lie. follow the election, rudy giuliani, jenna alice -- were everywhere, planting the seeds, that the election had been stolen from donald trump. he had been wronged by extension, so had his supporters. lighting the flame for the january 6th insurrection. >> who is a called by? oh my goodness, all of the networks! wow! all the networks! we have to forget about the law. >> american patriots are fed up with a corruption from the local level, to the highest
level of our government. we are going to take this country back. >> very interesting to see what's going on, and this was an election that we won easily. we want to buy a lot. >> i gave you the answer. >> the answer that i gave you is it in bother to interview a single witness. >> with the legislatures need to recognize that they don't need these governors. >> we use largely venezuelan voting machines, in essence, to counter vote. if we let this happen, we're gonna become venezuelan. accounts happen to us. >> for the new york times. harry lippman, former deputy assistant of the -- talking fence podcast, and they both join me. harry, let me start with you. it's always been striking to me, if professional legal ethical codes, and the guild of the bar means anything, it's supposed to enforce some codes of conduct. this is so that you can just go
to court to make some baseless claims, wasting everybody's time. yet, these individuals have done a lot of, that and encouraged summit of professional sanction in raw for it. what is the legal system been doing with these lawyers, before today subpoenas? >> gearing up, giuliani already has his license suspended in new york and d.c.. powell is already in a world of hurt in michigan, in some 200,000 legal fees. jenna alice has claims of her -- there are cannons that say you cannot lie to the court, and you can lie to the public. as lawyers, these guys are walking train wrecks. they're really only credentials to say false things for trump. as the ethical, legal level, the system is catching up to them. of course, today is about their own concerted action, and
possible civil, and criminal activity. more important, their possible connection to the president and all of the activity on january 6th. they are in a world of hurt. i wouldn't expect them to be practicing lawyers, in a matter of a year or so. >> katie, how significant do you think the subpoenas -- has given their proximity to trump. given the fact that we know these are people who were in very regular contact with him throughout those key months? >> i think the subpoenas have a lot of optical significance, because of the proximity that these people have to trump. it's very unlikely that they will actually provide the committee with any information, even if they are charged with contempt. symbolically, it's very important that these people be subpoenaed, because there is
evidence that they could provide. also, keep in, mind what they were doing in spreading the big lie -- with attorney general, merrick garland, and what is come out in hearings with -- a head of the national security division. the big lie is something that has animated domestic extremism. if you are the justice system, you see the attack on january 6th as an act of domestic terrorism. as a committee tries to figure out why this happened, and what's the motivation was, people have said that the motivation to come to the capitol is the believe that the election was stolen. the justice department's own national security experts say that it's the big lie that keeps fuel to the fire. >> the point making is an important one. just to reiterate, if you think it's the case, that the election was stolen, successfully by joe biden, and he was put in power against the will of the people, your living
in extreme times, in which the rule of law hasn't held. there isn't a possible mission structure -- of course, that's key to what we're seeing. i want to follow up to you, katie. this is reporting of a colleague of yours, not your writer for new york times. -- to the legal system. and at least one case, and in visual named brenda straka -- the prosecutors are said to have asked about trump's role of the january 6th riot. which seem significant, and maybe we have not seen that yet, in any of the charging documents. prosecutors wanted to know about any coordination with trump, or his followers. >> we haven't seen that in the charging documents. we have seen is people being charged by the justice department, saying that they did with a did, that they were at the capitol, illegally
entered the, building destroyed popular guy, etc, because they believe that donald trump wanted them to. this is an idea that has been brought up by people who have been charged. keep in mind, attorney general garland, the justice department hasn't ruled out the investigations of her anybody. they're willing to investigate people, even those who did not enter the capitol on that day. the departments already made good on that, by charging the head of the oath keepers with sedition. mr. rhodes, very notably, did not actually enter the capitol, he did not illegally enter, or try to stop congress that day, but if you look at the charging documents, it says he was a key player and the mastermind behind the attack. >> harry, in terms of the individual speed of the day. i think katie's correct say the odds of their cooperation are pretty low, we'll see what
happens. how teasing this plays out? >> they are low, but they have a lot to lose, more than the average person. if they are held in contempt, and it is sustained, it is really curtains for them. i also want to second will katie said, just to say very roughly, both january 6th and doj are about trying to align what we now know as being seditious conspiracy cases, to the oval offices that will be -- marginal group that is a bridge from trump to these folks. fundraising, etc. sydney powell, among others, represented michael powell, and we're beginning to inch into the michael powell alex jones land. in any event, i think will come out talking, and it's not clear the committee really believes
that they need their testimony, but they want to put down markers for the broader inquiry, and there are a lot of possible charges that they could be subject to. impeding an official proceeding. they're looking at potential criminal referrals. >> all right. katie benner, -- i had, as january six investigation moves steadily through, donald trump's inner circle. what about the man in the center of it all? george connally and why says prosecutors need to start investigating trump, after this. investigating trump, after
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much worse. none of that happened to donald trump. he's out, bobbing around, planning the next one. >> we won the state. it is something that i can test that i will continue to contest. we are up by a massive amount at 10:00 in the evening. and then all of the sudden, things closed, it reopened and voila, look what happened. we have to be a lot sharper next time. famous statement saying that sometimes the vote counter is more important than the candidate. we cannot let that ever happen again. have to get tougher. >> that was donald trump over the weekend, before his arizona rally. apparently quoting joseph stalin. on the importance of the republican party controlling the vote counter in this case the state of pennsylvania. while again, he is a free man, he can do it you won't, say what you want, to whoever, anyone who will listen. there is a growing chorus of people saying that there have to be criminal and legal consequences for what he
plainly attempted. one of them prominently is conservative john kawhi. recently altered an opinion piece in the washington post, arguing that the investigative road must lead prosecutors to those responsible for january six. former president donald trump. george conway joins me now. i want you to layer your case here, for what you think should happen and why. >> i don't think it is that complicated. he needs to be investigated for any number of the charges of the sort that have been brought against congress. judge mehta in the district of columbia called some of the people that he was sentencing the people that walked into the capitol on january 6th and broke into the capitol, he called them ponds. where are the higher ups he was asking? you know, they've gone now with the oath keepers indictment last week. it's gotten to maybe the bishops and the nights. but they are still having a ways to go. and because they were all there, and they say this. these people.
because of donald trump. donald trump started this all. he started by lying about the election. almost before it even happened. and he kept going. and was the one who basically told them to go up on capitol hill. there are any number of theories, by which he could be held criminally liable for this stuff. harry lippman, you just had on, talked about policy to, which is a perfect fit for this. it talks about -- it criminalizes, somebody should go to jail not more than 20 years, if they corruptly obstruct, influence or impede any official proceeding. to include a proceeding of congress. in the judges, in this victory, and the district of columbia held an official proceeding of congress, includes the january 6th counting of electoral votes. the question is did he try to obstruct influence? or impede that proceeding?
yes he did. did you do it corruptly, let us count. he lied. for two months about the election. it seems pretty corrupt. tried to coerce the vice president. seems to be pretty corrupt. your colleague rachel maddow's, then showing the certificates that republicans have prepared. fake electoral votes certificates. those were part. linchpin of the memo that was presented to donald trump. did he have something to do with those did you know? sounds pretty corrupt. if you ask donald trump did next, you are bound to ask the next question, did you do x corruptly? and sometimes, the answer is yes. given the fact that when he was
trying to do here, whether he was doing it corruptly or not, or with intent to incite violence or not, he was trying to and constitutional democracy in the united states. which he was sworn to preserve protect and defend. there isn't a greater crime that could have been committed by the president of the united states. and with that calls for is -- the january six committee is all over that. the justice department is working its way to the seems to me, excuse the metaphor, grand jury prakash cool exam of trump and everybody he had contact with who had something to do with all of these efforts to stop the electoral votes from being counted or delayed. >> your point there. making this point, all the people made similar points. given what we know, it's in the public record reading from the
code there. based purely on what we know from news reports and the steady stream of revelations coming from the house select committee looking into the attack, the attorney general has a powerful justification of the investigation into the former president circle. obviously does seem that there is sufficient evidence, sufficient facts as a predicate for criminal investigation of the individual that was obviously driving the whole thing. and everybody knows that. no mystery. about whether he was the one doing it. >> right. and he was the one doing it. the greatest crime that you could imagine the president would commit. if you don't at least look at this with the closest possible microscope you are basically saying that the president is completely above the law. this isn't about whether or not he spent money that wasn't appropriated from congress which would be a big deal, this isn't about whether he made some argument about the interpretation of the law and pushed it one step too far. this is about the constitution
basically being destroyed. and if they don't use resources to look into this process, it would be a travesty. attack -- garland speech last week, they are not going to stop any level. they are going to look at everybody. a fair way of interpreting her. i will be gets to doing that. >> let me ask you, i've often wrestled with this. you've written in other places about criminal liability that the president is exposed to, in other ways. the new york times investigative piece on his tax records. based on actual documents. implicates some pretty aggressive tax strategies. some even called fraud on his face. there's a criminal investigation, new york district general attorney's office. a criminal investigation of oakland county georgia. about the corrupt attempts. to bully raffensperger into
overturning the election. yeah. so this is somebody who has danced on the edge of the law and criminal conviction for a very long time. it is he inordinately savvy? to never quite do the thing that is the smoking gun. or is he just protected now by the worry about norms, political ramifications institutional of american democracy. if you try the former president. what is saving him right now, to your mind? >> i think that saves him often, is the thing that has always saved him, i think mary trump put it quite well in her book. there is always people around him ever since he was a trial, protecting him. and trying to keep him out of trouble. taking the blame for things that he does. and beyond that, the other thing that he does, he does a lot of the stuff out in the open. which, fools people into
thinking that, we'll, if this were really illegal and he had criminal intent, he wouldn't have been so open about it. but that is precisely what makes him so terrible. and exactly what shouldn't protect him. but he was more open about basically destroying constitutional democracy in the united states. and maybe somebody else have been. no other president has done that before. >> it is a bizarrely affective alibi, to constantly be plotting. doing it in public. and then turn around and say, well clearly i would have just done this in front of you. >> there's also his state of mind. he is so seemingly crazy, that when he says something that is just off the wall and falls, you know, you kind of wonder, he's just knots enough to believe some of the stuff. the fact of the matter is he gets away with a lot because
that. >> george conway, thank you for your time tonight sir. -- >> do you remember when the supreme court ruled that covid is not an occupational hazard next, the supreme court justice who reportedly refused to wear masks despite the health concerns of his own high risk colleague. we'll be right back. s own high ris colleague. we'll be right back.
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of the most elite proof is the two shades of all of american governments. so, when something does come out, it's a big. deal today, we got a pretty shocking story. it stands for this moment, earlier this month, the court return to the bench, for the first time is all a days. as you can see, with omicron cases surging, all of justices wearing masks, except over there on the right, for neil -- also one justice was missing, sonia sotomayor, who participated from her chambers. justice sotomayor has had type one diabetes since childhood, putting her at higher risk for developing serious calm
implications if she's infected with covid-19. court sources told npr, with the omicron surge, just as sotomayor did not feel safe in close proximity to people who were unmasked. chief justice john roberts, understood that, and quote, as the justices to mask up. as you can see in the court sketch, justice gorsuch, who sits next to justice sotomayor, was the only want to refuse that request. and pr reports, his continue refusal to wear a mask is also meant that sort of my or has not attended the justices weekly conferences in person, joining us said by telephone. so, you can say that the lack of some sort of rule, with chief justice roberts could've been used on the court, as an occupational hazard for just a sort of my your. it's changed your workplace, made it less safe. it just so happens that the argument that the court heard, on the first day back, after the holiday break, we're about that scene and testing mandates,
where the danger of -- as an occupational hazard. keep in mind, in addition to just a sort of my or participating remotely, two of the lawyers arguing for blocking the mandates, we're doing so by phone, why? because they tested positive for covid. the court dot, we probably should have covid tested positive people in the workplace. in the, had the majority, including justice courses, ruled against the testing vaccine mandate. although covid-19 is a risk that occurs in many workplaces, it is not an occupational hazard in most. covid-19 candidate does spread it home, in schools, and during sporting events, as well as elsewhere than other people gather. okay, yeah, sure. it sure seems like an occupational hazard for just the sort of my or, a precedent at high risk who sits next to a coworker who refuses to wear a mask. she also has to do her job, it's not like a sports game. also, covid is an occupational hazard for millions of
americans. it does not matter whether those hazards also exist beyond the workplace walls. now, justice is deeply obnoxious behavior, -- which will be making some of the most decisions, probably since al east -- we've had a great conversation with my cog cast, having a great special crossover episode -- cohosted by my wife, melissa murray, and leo whitman, check it out. check it out .
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filibuster, or change its rules to get voting rights passed. so, just hours ago, the leader of the senate promised to find another way around the impasse. >> if the senate cannot protect the right to vote, which is the cornerstone of our democracy, then the senate rules must be performed. must be reformed. if the republicans block coach or on the legislation before us, i will put forward a composure to change your rules, to allow for a talking filibuster on this legislation. >> tonight, as senators continue to beat at the capitol, joined by senator tim kaine who just finished his own speech, in defensive voting rights on the senate floor. senator, what is happening right now? i've lost the thread a little bit, explain where we are. >> well, listen, chris. we have two fantastic voting rights bills to protect. people whose voting rights, and
to restore the voting rights of 1965. the good news, we have all 50 senate democrats are strong supporters, of both bills. they've been rolled into one, the bill is now pending on the senate floor. the first debate that we've been able to have, during the entire time i've been at the senate. but, 50 votes without some thought about a rules reform will not be enough to pass it. that is because the senate filibuster is involved. if you don't have 60 votes you can get legislation passed. as you know, we have two democrats who said they won't change the filibuster rule. so, i've worked with people like chuck schumer and others, and we've come up with the proposal that you do not need to abolish the filibuster. you just need to restore it to what it was during most of senate history. here's what it is, you are on a bill, and won a bill now, you just keep depending on the debate is over.
nobody stands up to speak, or everybody spoken twice, understandable 19. at that, point it's my simple majority. we've got a majority with the vice president breaking the tie. we're not going to propose to change the rule, and how to terminate the debate. we're not going to do any of that. joe manchin and kyrsten sinema say they don't want to abolish the filibuster, the only thing we're gonna try to do is try to switch the filibuster to a secret, closed filibuster, tua talking, public filibuster. that will be the vote tomorrow. if joe and kristen like the filibuster, will just ask them that it should be public. we'll say to the republicans who like the filibuster, it should be public rather than private. we'll see where they end up. if we can get it to be a public filibuster, then we'll just debate the bill until the
debate winds, down and then it's a simple geordie rule. -- and will be able to get it passed. >> joe manchin, in the past, has said, he favors some kind of change to make a public filibuster. i'm not sure he wants to go along with this particular modification. i do want to play you something he said today, which strikes me as part of this. which is kind of like, how high are the stakes here? part time, we get caught in the rules reform, but what are we talking about? how big of a deal is this, how important is this? he was asked a good question about the possibility of disenfranchisement. of people not being able to vote, here's his response, i want you to take a look. >> there are a lot of people out there who are saying they're not gonna be able to vote in the next election. >> the rules are there, basically the government to. the government will stand behind them to make sure they have the right to vote. we have that. the things they're talking about now are in court. the courts are struck down, like in ohio.
things are happening, we act like we're going to obstruct people from voting, that's not going to happen. >> would you think about that? >> chris, joe and i are longtime friends. we were governors together. i have been in numerous meetings with joe, where his colleagues, or close friends, have looked him in the eye and said you may not be worried in west virginia, but in montana, they were acting discriminatory voting i.d. requirements, to make it harder for younger people, and members of indian tribes to vote. that's going to hurt me. raphael warnock says, joe, in georgia, they're hurting the ability for folks a hot. i've had numerous colleagues tell him to his face, i don't know about west virginia, but i'll tell you about my city. i'm puzzled when i hear joe say he's not worried about disenfranchisement, when his own colleagues, or friends, are
saying this is the difference between whether i win or lose, but also whether i even run. this is a clear, and present danger. i get it, when trump in the gop members tried to say, there's nothing going on here, ignore them in behind the curtain, i'm troubled when i see joe and he's in the room with his colleagues, who are telling him this is a problem, and he's acting like there aren't any problems. >> yeah, i mean, we should know just little context. a lot of the rules that are being changed in states like georgia, formally, would have to go through a national process. you can't overemphasize the fact that we had solved the problem, beforehand, about how to deal with the fact that you want states to have some local control, or municipalities with
control but -- also federal standards, and to make sure that the system is not being abused. -- and now we are here, senator tim kaine of virginia. thank you so much for your time tonight. >> chris, it's going to be an important i'm excited about it. >> we will keep our eyes on it. that is "all in" on this tuesday night. rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. thank you very much. thanks to you at home for joining us. florida's republican governor, ron desantis, submitted a new map for congressional districts. in his state. what he proposes is that florida should cut in half the number of congressional districts that are majority black. okay. texas's largest counties are starting to report on the real world impact of the voting restrictions that texas republicans passed this past year. as many as half the ballot requests they are getting from