tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC February 1, 2022 12:00am-1:00am PST
pair chose that the idea of family is not species specific. and in many cases, nontraditional families really do a wonderful job of child rearing. that is our broadcast for this monday night. with our thanks for being with us. on behalf of all of my colleagues at the networks of nbc news, goodnight. >> put me in jail? they want to put me in jail. >> we now live in a world where the foreign president has admitted he tried to stage a coup. >> i think it tells us that he would do it all again if you were given the chance. >> tonight, the fallout from the ex president's stunning admission and george conway on when it means for the prosecutors investigating trump. and the brazen takeover of an election board and georgia where republicans are canceling key voting dates, plus, -- >> absolutely. i get things wrong, but i try
to correct them. >> how the pressure on spotify has got response from the biggest stars and has a turn vaccine resistance into celebrities, the brutal tragic reality of their anti-vax advocacy that fox news refuses to tell. what's next for you? other than being a celebrity now. what's next for you? >> when all in starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. donald trump wants the world to know that he's a clear and present danger to american democracy. after a near miss he's mounting a second attack. i'm not connecting the dots or reading into anything that comes as a conclusion, but on a weirdest and yet strangely inoculated things about donald trump is that he just comes out and says when he's up to. that's exactly what he did at a rally in texas this weekend when he dangled pardons for the insurrectionists and essentially mounted a campaign to intimidate his way out of criminal liability. >> if i run and when we will
treat those people from january 6th fairly. we will treat them fairly, and if it requires pardons, we will give them pardons, because they are being treated so unfairly. if these radicals, vicious, race just prosecutors do anything wrong or illegal, i hope we are going to have in this country the biggest protest we have ever had in washington, d. c., in new york, and atlanta and elsewhere, because our country and our elections are corrupt. corrupt. >> the prosecutor tried to charge, and donald trump lost this -- protest is a healthy part of democratic society, but it's also worth remembering what the very last pro trump protest and massive looked like. the following day the former president was also remarkably clear about that day about what is real intentions were on the
day of the insurrection -- he relates the statement saying in part quote, if if mike pence had absolutely no right to change the presidential election results in the senate, how come the democrats and rhino republicans are desperately trying to pass legislation that would not allow the president to change the results in the election? actually, what they're saying is that mike pence did have the right to change the outcome, and all they want to take that right away. unfortunately, he didn't exercise that power, he could have overturn the election. in his own words! donald trump said he wanted mike pence to overturn the election. that's a phrase we use on this program all the time. we've been using it for a while, because i think it's the most distinct articulation of what he was trying to do. forming a cool on american democracy, overturn election. now the twice impeached ex president is using the same words himself. as for mike pence, today we've learned that his former chief of staff, marc short, testified before the committee investigating the insurrection. he was subpoenaed back in december reportedly appearing
last week. he was the guy by mike pence aside the entire time as trump was bullying pence to steal the election as the capital was being attacked and pence again was being shuffled to safety. of course it doesn't stop with donald trump. you brought the entire republican party under his control, involving them in his clearly, consistently and repeatedly articulated anti democratic aims. if republicans can control of house leader this year is the very well might, donald trump is going to wield incredible power. it might even be speaker. the daily beast reported today that trump -- to prepare and investigate a conspiracy theory about his own attempted coup. quote, trump has told republican lawmakers, congressional candidates in recent months that republicans
on capitol hill should be prepared to launch a full blown investigation to quote, get to the bottom of, how fbi agent supposedly caused the violence and mayhem on january six. that's the insurrection. it was an inside job theory. proposed by lots of people, including hosts on fox, and the guy who got fired as a speech writer. it's like the 9/11 was an inside job theory. it's an utterly groundless theory that the insurrection was some sort of insight job perpetrated by undercover fbi agents. it came from a ford or -- fired for friend icing with white supremacists. tucker has been promoting it for months. donald trump's increasingly exceedingly clear message of the last election stolen from him, and republicans need to be ready to do whatever it takes next time, has made its way down to the rank and file, in fact is probably the one issue the most passionate and focused on. many of them are even more honest about with that means. take a second, i want you to listen to with two republican candidates in michigan told the crowd there this weekend about where they should be preparing
to do. >> if you see something you like -- you don't like, take control of the narrative. you cannot sit on the sidelines anymore and be nice. take action to take our country back -- [applause] >> the second amendment -- it's not there for self-defense. the second amendment is there, the founders put it there, to protect only others. and it says to the government the people have the right. and if they go back and look at our declaration of independence chiraz -- the ideal thing is to do this peacefully, that's ideal. but the american people at some point in time, if we can't change the tide [inaudible]
, we need to be prepared to lock and load. so you ask, what can we do? show up big armed. >> let me give you a little tip as someone who's been in politics for a long time. whenever you get someone saying the ideal is to do this peacefully and then the butt comes, that's the part to listen to. that's the part when they're urging people to engage in political violence to show up armed. some of the strongest -- of trump, we should say, it's coming from within his own party. it's a small number of people but early this evening republican congressman liz cheney, vice chair of the january six committee denounced the former president's threats. >> he acknowledges that he was attempting to quote, overturn the election. he threatens prosecutors. he uses the same language that he knows caused the january six violence. i think that it tells us that he clearly would do this all again if you were given the chance. i think it's very important for the american people to recognize and understand what
we know and with the former president himself is saying about his intentions, when his intentions really were a year ago on january 6th, and what he would do again if he ever got anywhere close to power. that just simply can't be who we are as americans. it cannot be who we are as republicans. >> george conway tore into trump saying somebody should read the ex presidents rights, because he's admitting to his crime right there out in the open. joining me now is the aforementioned lawyer and joyce vance, former u.s. eternity for the new york district of alabama. george, i'll start with you. at one level, at least, the honesty and clarity to try to want to overturn the election is useful, awesome. >> u.s., would he did over the weekend was kind of a trifecta going to his intent -- -- by offering pardons or suggestions -- to pardon the people who committed violent acts on
january six, he's demonstrating again that he proved the actions were consistent with the reports that he was watching with glee and it adds to the case that he was actually intending to form and violence that they. his statements -- that he wouldn't -- know he tried to fix the election and that he was trying to get pence to overturn the election go to the air about when he was trying to do which goes to the corrupt way that he was acting with the prep motive to try to interfere with the congressional proceeding. thing that he did was to show that this is his modus operandi. he intends -- he is willing to use the threat of violence or to incite violence in order to coerce government officials to either forego forcing the law against
him or to -- you know, to violate the law as he sought to have pence and members of congress due on january six. >> yeah, there is an air of menace that hangs over all of this. the people on the other side will tell you what happens when you are in the crosshairs, rhetorically. but we should note that the fulton county district attorney said the yesterday -- he is looking into possible pregnant -- a grandeur about the presidents attempt to solicit it sexual ali -- i said to ask you a reassessment of the fulton county courthouse and government center, that you provide protective resources to include intelligence and federal agents. we must work together to keep the public safe and we know the tragedy and landed it similar with happens in the united states in general, six 2021. and joyce, that was striking to me right after trump says, you know, take to the streets if i'm indicted. which again, taking the streets
is fine. that is part of civil society, it's part of liberal democracy. it just has a different violence from coming from him, a year after people took the streets and cops had sebastian at the capitol. >> you know, enough of bending over backwards to give the former president the benefit of the doubt. he made a pretty direct threat and she was right, this was the district attorney in fulton county, georgia. she does not have a massive amount of resources at hand to protect people and protect the public, as they entered the building. she was absolutely right to reach out to the fbi. i suspect that they will give it very serious consideration. georgia says something that is so very true about trump, as have you chris. he doesn't play games when it comes to his intent. and this is all about what his intent was, whether it is the element that prosecutors have to prove to time up to the insurrection or what he intends to do going forward. he has made very clear statements, this is a man who asks people to violently protest from his own rally. this is not a call from the
former president for peaceful protest. this is a call from the former president for more of the same. there have been more consequences, at least for him personally for january 6th. as long as there are no consequences, he will feel free to continue on that same trajectory. >> particularly, when it's the same speech that you are floating part of the people that engage in violence on his behalf and his name. the last time around, i was also thinking about that in relation to that drafted speech that we saw. i was handed over the committee, it was a speech that somebody wrote from the day after january six. it was like basically normal politicians speak about january six. this is terrible, we were jacket utterly, to the people who did it you are not part of
our movement. they must be tried to the fullest extent. all the things that you would expect. and it's just a complete one 80. i mean, this is with the republican establishment of people around trump wanted to take up as his line in the aftermath in the day after. a year later, he is saying that they will probably let them all out of jail, get the gang back together and come for your second time. >> yeah, absolutely. that is what he is doing! he is saying that november 3rd was the real insurrection. he is praising the people, as he initially wanted to do, he is praising the people who did with they did on january 6th. he is back to the mall that he expressed that day when he said, this is what happens when a free and fair election is stolen. >> right. >> he wanted these people to do what they did. and they did what they thought he wanted to do and wanted them to do. that is what they are telling courts when they're getting sentenced. >> and there is also this trickle down effect. we saw in the two individuals that were running for office in michigan. one was running for state senate, one was rubbing forgot werner. they were sane unplug machines, the other was saying -- this is what endorsed election race in pennsylvania where he sort of quotes an apocryphal stolen quote. it's a frankly as authoritarian as you can get about
controlling, essentially, the means of electoral counting. let's take a look. >> western pennsylvania, as you know, we did very well there. we did very well in the state, we won the state. it is something that i can contest, i will continue to contest. we were up by a massive amount at 10:00 in the evening. and then all of a sudden, things closed and reopened and voila look what happened. so, we have to be a lot sharper next time when it comes to counting the vote. there's a famous statement, sometimes the vote counter is more important than the candidate. >> and that has really been the message. i mean, that is the message that we need to seize the control of elections. and quote, overturn the elections in his wording this weekend. >> it's very -- >> it's absolutely right. >> it's clear that the former president doesn't believe in
winning elections by convincing the american people to vote for them. he believes in winning elections by taking control of the machinery of elections. it is an incredibly dangerous trend. we see legislative action, we see these pro trump candidates running. that is what the american people will most need to be on guard against an upcoming midterm elections. >> yeah, there is legislative fixes, there's discussions about how there is legislative 's that are proposed that are more sweeping by democrats they guarantee a baseline electoral access. there's other stuff about reforming the electoral count act. i keep coming back to this idea that there is something -- you almost can't legislate your way out of one of two parties in a liberal democracy. essentially, withdrawing from the basic legitimacy of liberal democracy as a collective undertaking. it is what we are watching happen in realtime. >> yeah, that is absolutely right. i mean, the electoral count act
of 1887, the 12th amendment, they all assume good faith. >> right. >> they all assume the various actors up and down the line are going to follow the law, the rule of law. and that is exactly why donald trump was unsuccessful in 2020 in fixing the election results in overturning the election results. people like raffensperger, the governor of arizona, the governor of georgia, very respectful judges -- they all did their jobs and did their duties. maricopa county electoral board, they all did their right thing. the question is, will the same people or the same people of the same quality and caliber, honesty and integrity be there in 2024 in the states that matter? that is the scary question. i don't think any amendment or clarification to the electoral count act of 1887 can guarantee that. >> george conway and joyce vance, thank you both.
as trump tees up his plan for the next election, how democrats are already getting placed in georgia. plus, the absolute tragedy of the veteran state trooper who quit over vaccine requirement. he became a fox news celebrity, championed by vaccinated fox news hosts sitting safely in their studios. and he has now died from covid. >> going across the state, going across the world and unlimited talk shows. i've been on talk shows pretty much solid since 2:00 yesterday. i could do a ton more five the time a day. for some,... ...this is where their keytruda story begins. keytruda—a breakthrough immunotherapy that may treat certain cancers. one of those cancers is advanced melanoma, which is a kind of skin cancer where keytruda may be used when your melanoma has spread or cannot be removed by surgery. keytruda helps your immune system fight cancer...
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effort to take control of the elections is happening right now in a small county in georgia to south -- it's called spalding county. it's over 67,000 people that center around the city. in the 2020 election, the county one for donald trump by nearly 16%, though it's democratic's were undergoing slow and steady changes according to local organizers. after the election in may of 2021, republicans effectively dismantle the counties majority democratic election for purging the three -- and making it majority -- the way the legislature enable that purge was through legislature specifically for spalding county to restructure its board elections. last month they should with the move is all about when the new republican board voted to cancel sunday's voting, which is typically a day where polling places see a heavy
turnout from black, largely democratic voters. the spalding county georgia is not alone. there's other counties in georgia seeing these types of purges of democrats election boards to put republicans in positions of power. here is the ceo of the new georgia project, the nonpartisan voter registration and she joins me now. this is such a strange story because of the language in that bill tax in an hp seven 69, they specifically say the fifth member of the board shall be selected and appointed by the majority of judges in the superior court of spalding county. what's the back story here about the national party of the state wide republican party targeting this election board in this county in this legislation? >> so the way that it works in georgia and the way it works in several counties -- won, georgia has 159 counts. the set at second highest number of counts, second only to texas.
with that means is that there are 159 boards of elections, 159 election supervisors, etc. in spalding county, like the majority of georgia counties, there would be to democratic party, the county party would appoint two people on the b o e, the republican party would appoint two people on the b o e, and then they would vote on the fifth person or the county executive would appoint a fifth person. big and so they had a system, the county executive, the two republicans would vote and they chose the fifth person, while they now given themselves the power through a little known legislative tool that they have called local comes trolled. now they've used that to and fairly remove the black democrats from the board and replace them with people who have no government experience, no election administration experience, who believe that the 2020 election results are legitimate.
and literally are going to be there to be partisan hacks to make it more difficult for more people to vote in their counties. >> just to be clear, i just want to reiterate so people understand this because i think it's important. these kinds of structures are very common and election boards across the country where you have two and two and a fifth person is reached by consensus. because the idea is you want those boards to generally be not super political or hack-y, to be generally bipartisan. that's the whole idea behind them to have this kind of structure setup that has not been replaced with a straight up republican majority power. >> 100%. here's the insult that is added to injury. these county boards of elections are already grossly underfunded and constantly under attack. these little african democratic african american women who have been doing this for 20 years managed to execute elections flawlessly hard with not nearly the resources that they need, and as a thank you for doing
their jobs and going above and beyond, they're being unceremoniously and unilaterally dismissed and replaced by partisan actors. they're leading ten, 20, 30 years of election administration go out the door for people who don't believe that joe biden is our legitimate president. like, that is the state of affairs in georgia, right now. we talk about the bill 202 but if we think about county governments and municipal governments as sort of lapse, innovation labs for democracy, there are places where it's for good and for ill. the republicans absolutely see it that way, that these are proving grounds, tested grounds for how they can be disruptive, how we can get to the november 22 midterms and they can cause enough chaos so that we don't have a congress that is seated. this is what is happening in realtime right now in places like georgia, and the 18 other states that have passed these
anti-voting bills. >> it's such a great point, just to reiterate what you said. being on these election boards is almost a definition of tank cliffs work where people are doing it on without much money. they're stopping you on the street, thank you for your service on the election board! these are people that were just doing it completely, purely out of essentially dedication. this kind of work, who have now been turfed out for no reason. we should also note that my understanding is that the georgia voting law, it basically gives local administrators discretion about that last sunday, whether voting is open before election day. that's kind of a traditional pulls day. if the register absentee ballot clerk so chooses, so every county can choose, and this county now has a new regime saying no, we are closing that down, we're not gonna happen on that sunday. >> right. you're looking at some of these counties where there is 100,000 voters, 200,000 voters which may not seem like a lot, but when you look at the margins and the 2020 elections where 7
million georgia voters voted in 2020 and the margin of error or, the margin of victory between president biden and former president trump was 11,000 votes, that's point 0015 percentage points. so that's the slimmest and thinnest of margins, and so the republicans of giving themselves all of these tools that they can use to overturn the results of elections that they do not like. hud attacking sunday voting as a direct attack on religious voters, on cultural southerners, on black voters. >> big thank you for that illuminating insight. i appreciate it. up next -- >> robert lemay, thank you so much for joining us this morning. we appreciate it and best of luck. >> thank you so much, guys. keep doing the work you're doing. you're doing phenomenal work. god bless. >> thank you so much, i appreciate it. >> the former police officer celebrated on fox news for
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and last october, refusing to get vaccinated. he gained particular notoriety of his rather crude sendoff. >> this is my final sign off. after 22 years of serving the citizens of the state of washington. i'm being asked to leave because i am dirty. this is the last time that you will hear me in this car. you can kiss my ass. >> in addition to a number of segments, this video earned lemay two videos including one of the networks star laura ingraham who said the officer had become a celebrity for his refusal to get vaccinated. >> what is next for you, other than being a celebrity? now what is next for you?
>> i am a spokesperson for thousands and thousands, i would even say millions of people. i think there's 2 million people that have actually viewed. it i think it's 99% positive from everyone. this is my path right now. there's a lot of job offers that i'm getting, phenomenal job offers. >> a sleeping giant. so, we hope that is happened here. >> a month ago, lemay was tragically hospitalized with covid and after spending some time on a ventilator, he succumb to the virus last friday. it is behind a wife and four children. it is an unbelievably sad story. lemay was a true believer that really did not trust the vaccine. he loved his values and principles. lemay is also not alone, a staggering number of it's been a leading cause for all cops in the country have -- it's also microcosm of a larger daily tragedy. it is almost unfathomable,
we're losing a shocking number of people every day now. roughly after vaccines became widely available. an average around 2500 americans are dying day, after day, after day, after day. 2022 will be another year with which covid is one of the leading causes death death in america. in fact, more people died of covid and 1:11-day period this month that have ever died from homicide in an entire year and this country's history. the vast majority of those deaths are entirely preventable. that is what is so maddening and upsetting. all it takes is a few shots to confer hugely beneficial reduction and risk. the horrifying tragedy of america right now is embodied in the story of the individual who lived his values, was not pretending in related he believed in. those values, no doubt informed by median clued-ing fox news, robert lemay did that interview
with laura ingraham from a squad car. she appeared to be safety in some remote studio. and grandma's most certainly vaccinated, probably boosted because she works for fox news. a company that takes the virus very, very seriously behind the scenes. they've got all sorts of regulations. they mandate, they have vaccines, they are constant testing for their employees. but of, course that message does not make it to the committee viewers of the network. no, no, no they only hear the anti-vax talking points that made robert lemay as celebrity. let's for their own ratings, for cynical monetary purposes. they don't have enough monetary purposes. that network which is overseen by suzanne scott, the woman who calls the shots over there. we should know her name. they've decided to fan the flame of vaccine resistance. those flames -- thousands of people killed, thousands, of thousands. and when those people die, they are of course forgotten by fox news. lemay passed away on friday.
and as of this afternoon, the network has not mentioned his death once. this is just one sad chapter and a broader story of preventable tragedy that continues to grind on in america. it's driven largely by the enterprise that rupert murdoch and suzanne scott oversee. angela car sewn as the president of media matters for america, which is reported on the story of robert lemay. he joins me now. angelo, i just want to be clear and respectful here. first of all, there are people who die of covid who are vaccinated. it is not -- it does not stop you from succumbing to the disease. it is also no one's fault if they get an infectious disease. you know, it doesn't adhere to somebody ethically if you catch covid or you get sick with covid. but we do know is that vaccination, particularly boosted on top of vaccination, reduces by 15, 16 times peoples
risk of death. what is the message been from fox about vaccination in the main? >> the bottom line, you know people don't remember the individual claims. they remember the narrative, the take away. and the take away from fox news is not only that the vaccine is not effective, but fox's current coverage is that the vaccine will kill you. that is the bottom line takeaway that will either hurt you more than covid would or alternatively that it is some kind of effort to take away your freedom. and if you get vaccinated, you are actually giving into the liberal, utilitarian and a whole bunch of negative things will come from it. it will give you a worst take away, but that is the summation of fox news's coverage. >> how much do you think that is -- how much is that supply and how much of his a demand? meaning, how much are they catering to the views of their audience already and just chasing them with no concern for whatever that might do ethically. and how much of this is, you know, it's sort of their agenda? >> i think that is a very good question because it actually
gets to the thing that adds another layer of disappointment and tragedy to these are tragic deaths. it did not have to be this way. you can go all the way back to april of 2021 fox news in a span of a week devoted 91 segments to getting people to go out to the reopen events. to actually go to those public health measures. you can measurably tracked the chains in vaccine skepticism -- not just vaccine skepticism, they're anti-back coverage is part of anti-health care coverage. they track very closely together. there was a moment when their audience -- you know, a huge score of them would have some hesitancy anxieties. but the real fuel here and the schiff you are referring to did not have to be that way. it really was a consequence of supply. fox news did not just flood the market with the vaccine and anti-public health measures, they cornered it. and i think that is why it has had such lethal effects. >> rupert murdoch, of course
the owner of fox news and has properties across the world australia, uk and across the english picking one particularly. my understanding is that his reason that the uk does not take this line, that this is the fox choice. in fact, murdoch put out a statement very early in line to get the vaccine. he praised the national health service and has his vaccine. but you know, this is his network and they are choosing to do it. >> that is right. and i think that part of that is cultural, right? the other countries are taking it more seriously, although they are are starting to be kernels of pushback that are metastasizing in a similar way. but it is not as acceptable. it's like getting in an elevator and behaving badly. there is a norm and people will enforce that. they will stay calm down, it's the same thing. the exercise and societies that they want to tolerate. that not just from a public pressure perspective, but the marketplace won't tolerate. and in australia, their challenge there was sanction on youtube in a very meaningful way.
they lost a distribution rights for some covid misinformation. so, the penalties were harsh enough to actually make them engage in a normative unacceptable. way that just hasn't been the case here. it has been sort of perverse, they've actually been rewarded for this. and i think that is the real challenge here, that while we focus on line for some of these little pockets of misinformation and takedowns. fox news for some reason has been grandfathered in and they've been able to avoid any of the accountability. it's much smaller -- that they've had to endure. >> good point. it's the most horrifyingly breathtakingly cynical and inhumane thing that i've ever seen in mile time in public life. in the media. there's nothing that compares to it. thank you. >> thank you. >> fox might be weathering the backlash against that team but what about spotify and their start podcaster joe rogan? that's next. >> i'm not trying to promote misinformation. i'm not trying to be controversial. i've never tried to do anything with this podcast other than just talk to people.
you may have heard of joe rogan. he's a standup comic and ultimate fighting commentator. he's a former host of the show on nbc where contestant eight bucks and that all kinds of crazy things. he's now most known for a popular podcast he owns. what started as regular conversations with his friends back in 2009 has become a real hit by any metric. in fact, in 2020 rogin signed a 100 million dollar deal that gave the streaming service spotify exclusive rights to his show and the show now reaches an estimated 11 million listeners per episode. i gotta say, i've listened to oregon. i found the episode of the show fascinating and interesting. he's a strange, but good interviewer. he covers all sorts of stuff. but rogan's has repeatedly made racist, sexist anti-trans comments on his show. he has increasingly embraced the anti-vax platform including suggesting president biden did not actually get a booster shot on tv because he could have died or blacked out.
giving friendly interviews to people who are spreading wrong and dangerous misinformation about covid. it got to a point where the icon neil young said i don't want to be a part of this anymore and wrote a letter to spotify saying the company had to choose between him and rogan before removing music from the streaming service. so, spotify chose rogan and took his songs down. and legendary singer songwriter joni mitchell followed suit. she said quote, irresponsible people are spreading lies costing people their lives. so after weeks of sustained pressure and the rapidly falling stock price, spotify announced they will put a content warning on joe rogan's podcast. rogan is clearly spooked and posted it on instagram saying sure, we get lots of stuff wrong but we are just talking here. >> i'm not a doctor. i'm not a scientist. i'm just a person who sits down talks to people in his conversations with them. do i get things wrong? absolutely. i get things wrong, but i try to correct them. whenever i get something wrong
i try to correct it, because i'm interested in telling the truth. i'm interested in finding out with the truth is. my point of doing this is always just to create interesting conversations and ones that i hope people enjoy. if i take you off i'm sorry. if you enjoyed the podcast, thank you. >> broken promises to be better, mostly addressed his own comments that of undermine confidence in vaccines and spread outside wild conspiracy theories. >> if you are like 21 years old and you say to me should i get vaccinated i will say no! if you are a healthy person and you are exercising all the time, you are young, you're eating well, i don't think you need to worry about this. they're trying to say that children needed when they don't. they don't need it. i have no conversations -- spotify has never said a darn thing to me. there are amazing. i tested it as well. when i brought alex jones on, that effing guy is way more right than he is wrong. especially now, when people are talking about microchips being implanted to cpf covid-19?
>> you heard that part, right? where rogin says spotify has never said anything to him, which listen, brother to brother here, that sounds great. your boss never checks and on what you're saying. they just read you the czech. the company pays you $100 million to air a show. but there's a lot that comes with that. if a host uses a platform to spread things that are not true that end up hurting people, there are kind of responsibilities, including the platform. i don't think it's the end of the story, because right now this story, which is really interesting is the intersection of the enormous trends that are growing between covid disinformation and big tech and speech and we are talking about all that right after this. all that right after this. who are you? he's from clover. clover does that so i can do this. i like that green. chef, can we hire another hostess? umm...
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misinformation. i'm not trying to promote misinformation. i'm not trying to be controversial. >> podcast host joe rogan has pushed back to gantz allegations today. though he's promised to do better, spotify is going to put -- when you do for a host that tells tens of millions of years are weak that they don't need to be vaccinated during a pandemic. michelle goldberg is a columnist for the new york times, sam-seater joins me now. sam, a plucky independent man i come to for entertaining conversation. but cannot trust a word that you say. what do you think about this situation? >> i should say. full disclosure, i tried to get on rogan's show years and years ago. because a, to go on his show was to really help out your own show. at the time to, i felt like he had a lot of right-wingers, a lot of libertarians on.
subsequent to that, he announced on his show that he thought that was too harsh with right wingers. that was all well and good. the point is, he has a very important show. he has a huge audience. and i think the thing that he doesn't fundamentally understand is that his intent is irrelevant. it really is. i think that his intent isn't a lot of bad as others. but his intent is irrelevant. he is spreading misinformation. even in that instagram video he did, the first three minutes that are him trying to prove misinformation doesn't exist. because there has been a changing dynamic with vaccinations and covid over the course of eight months. which of course, a months ago, vaccines today different thing because covid was a different thing. but he doesn't quite get what he is doing i think on many ways. he thinks he knows what he's doing. but he doesn't understand it from the perspective of the way
that it impacts society. >> this is fascinating dynamic here. i should say. i sort of bristle a little bit at this kind of call the manager liberalism that you see. but i am generally an old school speech. more speeches better view. one of the things that is a little weird here michelle. somebody made this point today on twitter and i forget who. it's being talked about. content moderation. spotify is just producing his show. 100 million dollars. that's a spotify show. if i say thing on this network that are wrong, or that are legally problematic and slander. yeah, they come after my network and my boss. that's how it goes dude. i don't know what to tell you. people think they are in some world that they are not in. >> it's the same way you would go after fox. the right analogy is not used to what happens to have all
this content on. it can talk about content moderation policies. spotify is essentially his publisher. as you said, it's a spotify show. i understand people feeling uncomfortable. in some ways, there is no good way to deal with this. because once people see joe rogan saying that he's going to give you these voices that big media wants silenced. once people are out there saying this is dangerous and you have to shut it down. that just proves his point to a big part of his audience. that he is the say are of unsayable thinks. at the same time, his audience is massive. i don't know that all of them are realizing as he said in that instagram, i'm going to start doing more research before my shows. i don't know if all of them realize that he hadn't been doing research before his shows. people take that so seriously. there is a huge amount of distrust out there. a huge market for people who
have anti authoritarian leanings. and really bristle at two years of being told to trust authority and circumscribed their lives in really painful ways. >> i get that to. it's not like it's some ethically compromised disposition for people to have. >> i should say, in some ways, this pandemic has really left people to figure out on their own. i got the johnson & johnson vaccine. i figured out before the expert guidance that i should get the booster shot. so at the time, i was sort of going against public health guidance. even though later the guidance changed. right, things do shift. because the virus changes our understanding of the virus changes and some because public health bureaucracy can be sort of longer-ing. and slow. and i think that they take advantage of the uncertainty that creates an act like there is something malevolent there, when it is really just how it
works. >> there is a responsibility thing to. we do a podcast, called why is this happening, comes out every tuesday. it comes and gets fact-check. goes through standards. we started doing it, we're fact-checking a podcast, yeah. we are facts checking a podcast it's the product we put out in the world. and the things that we are saying it should be true, and if you say things that aren't true. you put that out into the world. that's the way this works. >> i say this as somebody who most of my best friends are comedians. there is this sense that because i am not a journalist. that i do not have the same responsibility. and this can be deployed in more or less malevolent ways. this is why limbaugh used to say. i'm just an entertainer you can't take me seriously. and the bottom line is, if you are talking to 11 million people every time you do a podcast you have a responsibility. and if you are the company that is paying for it, it is on you.
and he gets a spotify paycheck and it is on them and part of their brand now that they are the ones who are publishing this stuff. they are probably on it and it is hurting people. and it is their responsibility and it is their brand. and the other thing about it too. you can just talk about stuff that doesn't matter that much. that's the other thing. you can just choose to talk about comedy. or talk about. -- he is in over his head on some levels. that is the bottom line. he's in over his head. he's making too much money for them to not tell him. that's the bottom line. today he tweeted out, sort of gloriously, this ap story about ivermectin. a study from japan. while 20 minutes later, the ap corrected it's headline and you never heard from him again on it. this is a problem. he doesn't want to take responsibility for. spotify doesn't want to take responsibility for. but somebody is to blame. >> it would be nice to thank, to just live in a world where
you don't have to worry about if everything you said is true. that would be less onerous. that is bad. this is, we are all grown up here, we all have responsibility. michelle goldberg, sam-seater, thank you both. >> thank you. >> that is "all in on this monday night" the rachel maddow show starts now. >> thank you, my friend. much appreciated. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. happy to have you here, here is my home studio, as you can see, this time, the reason i'm here is that i had a recent covid exposure. i'm vaccinated and boosted. i have tested negative so far. but i was definitely exposed to somebody who was symptomatic and positive, so for this job, i cannot wear a mask in the studio while i am doing this job, so that means i cannot go to the studio. and risknfti