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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  February 3, 2022 12:00am-1:00am PST

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donald trump's plans to pardon january 6th insurrectionists. and we will speak to congressman pete aguilar on what he says is former president's witness tampering. and we examine the awful truth on america's response to the pandemic, when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, we are here on february 2nd in the midst of two extremely important seasons in american life. they always ride together. black history month in february and of course super bowl season. those two things, race and football, are related in a whole lot of important ways in this country. we have seen it for more than 100 years since the founding of the american professional football association, precursor to the national football league. the association was founded in 1920. but it did not integrate until 1946, when it had its first black player, kenny washington, who signed with the l. a. rams. in recent years, of course, at a time when american audiences are breaking up and
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balkanizing, football remains this kind of centerpiece of our national political popular culture. and there has been renewed focus on race after, of course, since former san francisco 49ers quarterback colin kaepernick elected to take a knee during the national anthem in protest of police brutality and racism. he has never played football again after that. this week we are seeing new high-profile examples of how issues of racial justice, racial oppression and hierarchy play out in fraught and profound ways in this sport. it is one of the last remaining sources of entertainment that can bring together 100 million american viewers, the only one left. today was a momentous day for the national football league as the washington football team announced their new name, the commanders. nearly two years ago the team finally, finally dropped their long time name and mascot, widely considered to be a racist slur. activists had been calling for change for
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years and years. the team's owner eventually relented in the wake of the george floyd protests. this name revealed today was a long time in the making. >> the greatest of legacies of all. we are the commanders. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> big celebratory day for the nfl. that mark of progress, generally, though it took too long after years of work, the nfl was hit with an explosive lawsuit. you may have seen some news about it. it comes from former miami dolphins head coach brian flores, who alleges that the league and its 32 teams have shown a pattern of discriminatory hiring practices. the complaint is 58 pages long and i have read the document and it is pretty extraordinary. it begins with a quote from dr. martin luther king jr. saying, in part,
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morals cannot be legislated but behavior can be regulated. the very first sentence of the statement notes that the claim was filed on the first day of black history month and frames the situation in incredibly vivid terms. i quote here -- "in certain critical ways, the nfl is racially segregated and is managed much like a plantation. it's 32 owners -- none of whom are black -- profit substantially from the labor of nfl players, 70% of whom are black. the owners watch the games from a top nfl stadiums in luxury boxes, while their majority black workforces put their bodies on the line every sunday, taking vicious hits and suffering debilitating injuries while the nfl and its owners reap billions of dollars." we will get all the details from brian flores and he will actually join me right here in the studio in just a moment. this lawsuit alleges something much broader than something specific to his situation. it claims there has been systemic racism through many years in the entire league and the complaint goes through
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the numbers to make that point. and the numbers, though i kind of knew them, are still pretty shocking when you see them in black and white. in the entire nfl, there are 32 teams. there is currently one black head coach. in fact, the complaint includes this gallery of photos to illustrate that point. and there has never been a black commissioner, there has never been a black majority owner of an nfl team. there is not much the league can do about who owns the teams. but they have tried to address the lack of diversity among coaches. back in 2002, there were two black head coaches who were fairly beloved, tony dungy and -- they were fired. and a study was spearheaded over nfl coaches over the last 15 years, to better understand what was going on. the report found that black head coaches in the nfl have outperformed their white counterparts but had inferior hiring opportunities. the following week, after the report was released, one of the
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civil rights attorneys, johnnie cochran, spoke to nbc about bringing the report to the nfl. >> i want to see if there was a way to try and increase the black coaches being interviewed at least. in the history of the nfl, there have been 400 coaches, only six of whom have been black. i think there is some racism and insensitivity here. i think, quite frankly, people feel comfortable with people they have known in the past. >> the campaign that began with that -- and remember this is 2002 -- ultimately led to the nfl establishing the rooney rule, requiring the teams to interview at least a minority candidate for each head coach vacancy. the rule was implemented in 2003 and named after dan rooney, the owner of the pittsburgh steelers, and head of the committee that made the recommendation. for a long time, this rule was touted as a win for diversity efforts but over
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time i expect we have watched it be essentially gutted in practice. go back to the picture of the 32 coaches with one black man. it reminds me of what has happened with requirements that, say, police officers wear body cameras. it seems like a good reform. and then slowly but surely you find that police officers forget to turn them on. brian flores joined the nfl in 2000, the year after the rooney rule was implemented. he worked with the new england patriots for years and worked his way up, starting as a scouting assistant and leaving as an assistant coach. he worked closely with the legendary head coach bill belichick and was with that team when they won four super bowls. in 2019, flores was hired as a head coach of the benighted miami dolphins, who have had a rough go of it. and he turned the team around. before flores, the dolphins had lost more games than they won for nine of the past ten seasons. that is very bad. but
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under his coaching, they had back-to-back winning seasons for the first time in a while. but then last month the dolphins made a shocking announcement. and i have to say, i follow football closely. the day after the season ends, many coaches get fired. most of them know it is coming but that was not true of flores. it was not true at all. they announced after two consecutive winning seasons that they were firing flores with two years left in his contract. >> the stunning play by the top brass of the miami dolphins, brian flores, has been fired as head coach. it took the sports world and fans by surprise. >> it took a lot of people by surprise. >> this is a move garnering national criticism, especially when you consider the way that brian flores was able to turn this season around. >> the dolphins claim that the firing was due to organizational issues. owner stephen ross said
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in part, an organization can only function if it is collaborative and works well. in his lawsuit, brian flores claimed there is more to the story. in his first season as head coach, flores says in his lawsuit, he refused his owner's directive to tank for the first pick in the draft. >> tanking is when a coach goes out and deliberately loses games in order to get a better draft pick in next year's draft. because teams with the lowest records get to pick first. flores goes on to claim that during the 2019 season, miami's owner told flores that he would pay him $100,000 for every loss, a losing bonus. and the team's general manager told flores that the owner was mad that flores's success was compromising the team's draft position. again, this is just alleged in a lawsuit. but you wonder what the dolphins fans think of that one. that same year, in 2019, flores spoke about his own philosophy about tanking in an interview. >> i think the term tanking is disrespectful to the game. i really do. i do not like that
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term. i don't like the way we use it. i will go in there every game and try to win. that is always going to be my objective. in anything i do, i want to try to win. i want to instill that in everyone i come across. but there is no tanking, no. you can write that over and over and over again. >> flores did not tank. in fact, as i mentioned, the dolphins had back-to-back winning seasons before he was fired at the end of the season. so, when a position opened up for head coach, it made sense that brian flores would be in the running. he had an interview set up for last week and then flores received a text message from his former boss, bill belichick, the legendary head coach of the patriots. i will read you their exchange. ready? from belichick -- "sounds like you have landed, congrats! " flores replies, "did you hear something i didn't hear? " "giants? ", says belichick. "i interview on thursday, i think i have a shot on it, floors's response. >> got, it i hear from buffalo and giants that you are their guy.
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hope it works out if you want it. >> that is definitely what i want, floors rights, i hope you are right, coach. thank you. then floor sends another message. quote, are you talking to brian flores or brian dabble, coach? just making sure. >> dabble. and this is where it all goes south. belichick replies, sorry, i bleeped this up, i double checked and misread the text. i think they are naming double. i am sorry about that. flores alleges that he had to give an extensive interview for a job he knew he would not get, an interview held away from others, to demonstrate to the public at large it was in compliance with the rules. the joint, of course, gave the job to the other brian, brian daboll, the guy bill belichick said would get it. the new york giants told nbc news today that the fact of the
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matter is that ryan flores was in the conversation to be head coach until the 11th hour. ultimately, we hire the individual we felt to be most qualified. the nfl told us, in part, diversity is core to everything we do and there are few issues on which our clubs and internal leadership spent more time. we will defend against these claims, which are without merit. flores alleges this is not the first time that this has happened. in the complaint, he claims he was scheduled to interview with the denver broncos in 2019. but then general manager, president and ceo and others, showed up an hour late to the interview, and looked completely disheveled, and it was obvious they had been heavily drinking the night before. it was clear from the interview that the floors interview was only conducted because of the rooney rule and the broncos never had any intention to really consider him for the job. the bronco says that those allegations are false but that the fall process was fair. former miami dolphins head coach brian flores joins me now along with his attorneys. good to have you here. thank you for
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having me. >> i want to start with this, the decision to file the lawsuit. i have covered kaepernick for years now and i have watched what happened. he never played in the league again and they would say, man, we could use a quarterback in this league. are you worried about what this means for your future and why you decided to do it? >> that is a question that i have been asked a lot and something i have but talked about with a lot, as we came to the decision to file a lawsuit. at the end of the day, this is not about me. this is about black and minority coaches and leaders who do not get an opportunity to showcase their skills and their leadership and their acumen and intelligence. and their abilities, in whatever field it is. in my
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case and in the nfl's case, as coaching leaders in this league -- look, i love coaching. i love it, it is a passion of mine. and it is something that i am gifted to do. and there are a lot of black and minority coaches who are gifted the same way that i am. and we coach so that we can impact young people and so that they can go on and be not only good players but good leaders in the community and good fathers. it is not just good football and it has never been that. and we don't have coaches in leadership possessions, specifically in the nfl. and that is a disservice to me. and to the majority of the players that are in the lead, working towards the goal of being better players and having better teams. they do not see
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that as a goal. and i think there is a specific reason why. we need to change the hearts and minds of the people who make those decisions. >> i want to talk about your relationship with bill pellet check and the patriots. you had been a player at boston college and i think you got injured and were not able to go to the nfl. you started there for 16 super bowls. what was your experience? and how do you feel about bill belichick? >> i had a great experience. there's a reason why they had so much success. i learned a lot about the game and myself. i learned about how to prepare, how to work, how to coach. and how to teach. i grew exponentially when i was there. and there are a lot of things that i learned, i have a lot of
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respect for people and so i have nothing but good memories there. >> what was your -- i think a lot of people at home, and i have to say, everyone was blowing up about this lawsuit, especially around the bill belichick text exchange, which is a nightmare scenario for people who have texted the thing they shouldn't have. what was your reaction in that moment? >> it was shock and disbelief, disappointment. it was humiliation. initially, i thought he was talking to me. but once i found out that the text was not meant for me, i was certainly in disbelief, i was certainly upset. and i had a lot of different emotions. the hiring process and whether or not it was fair, whether or not i was going to get a real opportunity. it did not sound like it and did not feel like
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that. and that ended up being the case. >> chris, think about the fact that it took a mistake in a text message to blow the lid off of everything that all black and minority candidates for coaching in executive positions -- and quite frankly we know this extends societal -- have known for a long time and suspected. but you do not have that smoking gun. obviously, the numbers speak for themselves. >> right. >> there cannot just be one qualified black head coach in the nfl. that is ridiculous. >> i mean, the numbers -- >> they speak for themselves. >> i have watched a lot of football, the dolphins are one of the stories this year. you guys turned out one in seven or one in eight. a team that people had completely counted out, they were up until the 16th or 17th week of the playoff season -- i mean, the record was pretty clear. >> if you look at some of the stuff
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that happens, not just with hiring but firing as well, there are times in the rare instances when black head coaches are brought in, that they are either outwardly asked to tank or they are just not given the resources. and when that happens, they are put in the position to lose for a year or possibly to get fired. and then that is when they get drafted and they hire a white coach and the thing that happened here is that the coach did an exceptional job and one. >> well, that is part of the allegation in the lawsuit. and i think it is probably the single most explosive claim, this offer, that the owner of the dolphins -- can you tell me about the conditions, what they were like when he gave you that offer? >> well, before we get to that, speaking to john's point, the head coaches who come in and do not really get the resources, those are oftentimes the jobs that black and minority coaches get. it is unfortunate but that is what it is. i stepped into a situation
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like that. and to me, i accepted that challenge. i believe in my abilities as a coach and a leader and motivator. so i was up for that challenge. unfortunately, i was asked to not put my best efforts forward, my best effort to win ball games, to tank. and look, this game has done a lot for me, it really has. it has opened doors that would never have been open for me. that is the case not just for me, that is a lot of our players. a lot of our players in our league have that same story. and i think that that is part of the reason that i really so well to the players. to disrespect the game is something that i would not stand for. and ultimately,
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that strain some relationships in miami. >> that's right. i want to ask a follow-up -- >> this may be the first interview on this, with your great opening -- [laughs] we should have hired you. let me say, the only thing i really want to say is to talk about the courage that brian shows us. he is the rosa parks of the nfl right now. to show that he is putting himself second, because he is putting a lot on the line, and he is doing it to create this change. and it needs to happen. >> i just feel it a call from a coach -- and i was in tears on the phone because of experiences that he has had in that he is dealing with. and i have more piece about this. i have more piece about it. >> i
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want to present an argument that people make about the rooney rule. it is not my argument. they say, okay, fine there is a bit of box checking here. but it does get you in the door. they are not violating and they are not not in compliance. there is no rule that they have to contemplate you. they just have to interview and they did that. and maybe in one out of ten circumstances, you knock their socks off and a change direction. what is so bad about that? >> well, i will say, i have heard that. i understand that thought process to a degree. but i think that the nfl is better than that. i think that the changes that we need -- and i don't want to just come up with new policies and say we will do this and do that and check some boxes. what i am looking for is a change in the hearts of people who make
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those decisions, and when i say that i mean that. people who have not spent time with black and minority people over the course of their lives, who are not comfortable. i think that we need to be intentional, opening our minds to forming new relationships with people from different backgrounds, spending time and understanding that there is a different perspective and a better perspective. and there is a different way to build relationships, a different way to communicate. >> as we have said before, there is one black head coach. the rooney rule doesn't work. it is time for the court to make an appointment. to make sure that there is diversity among up coaches, and that is why this litigation is so important. i have not been able to do this on their own and so now john,
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or myself, obviously with the help of our client, we will make them -- >> and when you talk about this situation, how can it be equal opportunity to get a job when the job is promised before the black or minority candidate interviews? that is not an equal opportunity. and when you talk about who is in the position of power, they are all white owners. and they are not anybody who is ultimately going to, potentially, step out on a limb and really give an opportunity. >> i have to say, and i am sure you have seen reaction to this, it has been everywhere. a lot of the reaction from black folks that i know, friends of mine, and other people online has been something like, i have been in that interview, and i know i was trotted in there for window dressing, and i was felt gassed lit. and there is something traumatizing about seeing that
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text from bill belichick, to say that you are not crazy. >> it confirmed what we thought was happening behind closed doors and it confirmed that for me. it is not just in football. it is in a lot of different industries. >> why was bill belichick even consulting with the giants? last time i checked, he is the coach of the patriots. so, what is he doing with that information? it makes no sense. >> what is the best outcome of this for you? >> we create real change, that is the best outcome. and it is not policies. i don't want any fluff here. >> we just went through the rooney rule charade. >> we need real change and that starts here, in your heart. and you only get that through conversation and dialogue and communication. and
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i am open to communicate with whoever it is about what it is like to walk into that type of interview, what it is like for black and minority leaders on the field. there are different ways to lead on the field, there are positions, coordinators. there are so many qualified and capable leaders in the many different staffs in this league. we have to be real intentional about giving opportunities. >> coach flores, it is wonderful to meet you, and douglas wigdor and john elefterakis, thank you very much. >> thank. you >> we have late breaking news tonight, in the last hour, the new york times has released documents central to the plot to install fake electors in the effort to steal the election for donald trump. we will have new details and luke broadwater, the reporter who broke the story, joins me, don't go away.
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on this show, this is all part of a greater effort to keep trump in power against the will of the american people. the -- would provide their own slate of pro trump electors, which would give mike pence -- and hand victory back to donald trump on january 6th. that was the plan. the memo the times obtained which was -- called on the fake electors to essentially participate in this sham process, where they pretend trump won anyway. quote, it may seem odd that the electors pledged to trump and pence -- even if, at that juncture, the trump pence ticket is behind, invoke -- certificate of election -- however, a fair reading of the federal statute suggests that is a reasonable course of action. -- one of the reporters that broke this story joins me now. luke, first of all, who wrote this memo, where did they write it and what was the context for them writing it? >> so, this memo arises out of two lawyers and wisconsin who
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are working on the trump campaign's legal fight there to try to sway the will of the voters into donald trump's camp. so, the voters in wisconsin chose joe biden. donald trump did not want to accept that. so, they were exploring different legal theories for how they could try to contest the election. one of them is to put forward what they call an alternate slate of electors. so, they are arguing a vote count is still closed. maybe we can get some positive rulings to throw out votes in some counties or change this or that. and we need to have this slate of electors in place so that the courts can rule potentially in our favor. the problem is that the courts don't rule in their favor and they reject this. the lawyers in wisconsin then write an analysis of what could be done in other states and they even say that some other states states laws are not as
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permissive to this idea of alternate electors as wisconsin and they say some are problematic or even dicey. but the trump campaign goes ahead with this plot anyway. and they start pushing these slates of fake electors in other states as well. because they have lost in the courts and now they will take this matter before mike pence and hope he will do what -- will not in congress. so, at the times, we have been investigating the origins, the different tentacles of trump's plan to stay in office, including the plan to potentially seize voting machines, to put forward these alternate or fake electors in states. and the plan to put pressure on mike pence and the members of congress to overturn the
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election through the -- and we have been talking about it with different members of the january 6th committee, and there is an increasing belief amongst them that these plans are all interconnected in the some way. they may have started as different plans, but they all played a role connected to each other and connected to donald trump in trying to stay in power despite what the voters say. >> i should note, i think american -- attained some of these documents through court processes, just to give credit where it is due. someone covered -- what is striking me is, and you know this, in the article it is one of the earliest legal documents that focuses on january 6th as the date. they've put a lot of focus on december 14th, which is sort of the deadline to win, that is when the states choose electors. but what this memo's status is saying, and kind of for the first time, is that no, we can push it to january 6th as long as we keep this alternate slate -- is that right?
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>> yes. so, we are not exactly sure who first came up with this idea that the electoral count act could be exploited. we know that the memo from john eastman's data january 3rd, only three days before january 6th. we know that trump's -- is stated december 31st. so, these memos date back to early december and even november. so, we may be seeing some of the first evidence of legal theories from the trump allies that get their way to people closer to donald trump and finally to donald trump himself. and he becomes convinced that no longer is it about winning and the electoral college, it is now about winning in congress. and so, they settle on this idea that really only one man needs to be convinced to choose the president and that is the vice president. obviously, that is wrong, that is not with the law says. that is not what the constitution says.
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but this is the start of these theories. and i will say the theory i think, if you look at it closely, becomes more warped as it goes along. it starts with just a plan in wisconsin and then it grows into something more and it grows in ways probably the original authors did not intend. >> luke broadwater, who has been doing great reporting on this topic, thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> next, not only is donald trump out there promising pardons for january 6th rioters -- committee member pete aguilar -- after this.
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today, one of the people charged with seditious conspiracy in the january 6th riot, oath keepers founder stewart rhodes the third -- those appeared remotely from the facility in oklahoma after a judge ordered him removed
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from pretrial detention in texas to a prison facility in washington d.c.. in his testimony, which lasted for six hours -- his lawyer says that he invoked the fifth amendment but talked extensively about history of the oath keepers. i am sure they were most interested in the stuff that criminal lawyers wouldn't want to let him answer. he mentioned communications with groups like the proud boys, and questions about funding for january 6th events. his testimony comes on the day that we learned donald trump was considering blanket pardons for january 6th riots rioters. according to politico, between january six and joe biden's inauguration, trump made calls to discuss the idea. do you think i should pardon them? you think it's a good idea? do you think i have the power to do it? that is according to the source. another adviser told politico about how participants in the right might be charged criminally and how a uniform pardon might be -- is it everybody that had a trump sign or everybody who walked into the capital who could be
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pardoned, trump asked, according to that advisor. he said, some people think i should pardon them. he thought if he could do it, these people would never have to testify or be deposed. ultimately, he decided against issuing pardons. but now he keeps floating the idea again and again, if he gets back into office. >> if i run and if i win, we will treat those people from january 6th fairly. we will treat them fairly. and if it requires pardons we will give them pardons. because they are being treated so unfairly. >> these people are being treated horribly. i would absolutely -- because some were being treated very unfairly -- i would absolutely give them a pardon. >> by the punishments are -- >> that is already raising charges of witness tampering from at least one member of the january 6th committee, congressman pete aguilar, who joins me now.
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congressman, what do you think of the ex president reiterating this twice? that he would possibly pardon january 6th insurrectionists if he got back into office? >> i think it shows just exactly how dangerous it is and that we are truly at the doorstep of a constitutional crisis. but the fact that he is dangling pardons for these individuals who hurt 140 capitol police officers, that is insane to me. but once again, the former president is saying the quiet part out loud, whether it was that mike pence was responsible for not overturning the election, to why can't read raffensperger find 11,000 votes, time and time again he tells us exactly what he wants and what he is thinking. and i think he crossed the line. >> yeah. i
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want to play this because i thought it was interesting. this is a lawyer for one of the people who was charged in the capitol riot talking about what this might do to a calculation about cooperation. take a listen. >> knowing that that is awaiting you at the end, regardless of the risk you might take, moving forward with the litigation, absolutely it would impact not only the attorney perspective but also the client also. >> so, less likely to cooperate, potentially? >> far less likely to cooperate and probably more likely to proceed to a trial. >> you wonder whether that is having a tangible effect on folks who are making considerations right now. >> yes, without a doubt. and i want to be clear that i am not a lawyer. my favorite law firm is jamie, raskin schiff and lofgren. but i can tell you that this is something deeply troubling. >> you guys on the committee have been processing a lot of testimony. we have got
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documents that are going to be turned over from mike pence. we have two principal pence advisers who have been there. and then i saw that the committee met with the former doj official, jeffrey clark, as well. can you confirm that? >> i cannot talk about specific interviews and depositions that we have had. what i can say is that we continue to make progress each and every day in this. and the investigative team is working hard and we are learning more every day from these interviews, some voluntary and some depositions, obviously, that we are taking. we have had 475 interviews that have been conducted. >> do you have expectations about the compliance of ivanka trump? >> i do not have any expectations. what i can say is that i have not heard any communication back. we will wait and see. but
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those seemingly closest to the president are more likely to evade and not comply to date. we have gleaned important details from that, they from january 5th and january 6th. but it seems that the presidents closest advisers seem intent on not wanting to cooperate. but i can tell you that that is not stopping the committees progress and we are making significant progress. because this is an important to the story to tell, about how we protect democracy. and how the committee is committed to do just that. >> there was reporting today from the new york times, and we just had luke broadwater on, and i believe you are quoted in the article about these memos sketching out a strategy. how significant do you think that those documents are? and how does that add to your understanding of how we came to the point of what he did on
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that date? >> i have not seen these particular documents. but i read the article. and what i can tell you is that this kind of lengthens the timeline that we are looking at. and it also shows that a lot of this changed as the calendar got closer to january 6th. the desperation increased and the tactics changed. but clearly, from the very beginning, right after the election, there were some people in the former presidents orbit who were already preparing contingencies and having some of these discussions. but from my perspective it is incredibly important because it reinforces the fact that they did not want to abide by a free and fair election or support a peaceful transfer of power. if you were planning contingencies and hoping that they would have opportunities to deliver that. >> all right, congressman pete aguilar, thank you very much. >> thank you, chris. >> coming up, as we near a staggering
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900,000 lives lost to covid, a new analysis finds that americans are dying from the coronavirus at a far higher rate than every other vaccine wealthy country and it is not just vaccine hesitant driving that. i'll explain.
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would have once been considered and unfathomable toll of 900,000 americans killed by the coronavirus pandemic. take a look at this chart, which shows deaths among large wealthy countries since the start of the pandemic. and some small ones as well. the u.s. has now at the top of the chart, overtaking belgium and the uk with the highest covid death toll relative to our population. why is our death toll so high? why is it so much worse here? well, for one, just look at the vaccination rate of the same ten countries that topped the covid charge. the u.s. is considerably behind
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-- and considerably behind on booster shots. that is not likely to change, according to -- nearly 20% of those polled are just unwilling to get the vaccine. and vaccination rates aside, our population is just much less healthy. we are at risk -- researchers in the commonwealth fonda found that countries like australia, germany, and canada have much better health care systems that in the u.s.. that is even though the u.s. spends way more on health care. our life expectancy is lower than other rich countries. it has been that way for decades before covid. a pandemic is exposing the dark parts of american exceptionalism. and we now have the largest death rate in one of the richest countries in the world. what does this say about us? about what kind of country, we are? i'm joined now by -- director of the global health program. one of the authors in a recent
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study -- and doctor celine -- infective disease specialist -- and a former member of the biden transition covid advisory board. tom, let me start with you. if you are given the top line answer of, why has it been so much worse here? particularly, omicron, where we have watched this go through other countries and we have had a more elevated death rate. why? >> the short answer, for the reason why the u.s. has more elevated death rate, its first, we have had extraordinarily high number of infections. the second highest among high income countries in the world. population adjusted basis. as you rightly pointed out, the background health of our population is poor, in particular, with regard to that -- obesity. and when we looked in our study,
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those are really the factors that are within government control that really distinguish how countries did in this pandemic, the successes from countries that had not done as well -- >> say those again. so, you're saying we have more virus going around. we have higher levels of pre-existing covid morbidities. and that is independent -- >> definitely not independent. unfortunately, the number of infections we have is quite dependent on the vaccination rate. and in the u.s. context, that seems to be really driven by low trust in our government and low trust with each other. what we find is, internationally, the rates of trust that people have in their government and each other are tied to vaccination rates and the u.s. now lags behind peru, fiji, and thailand in vaccination rates. and it is also tied in compliance with a social distancing and other public health protective mandates. >> i want to get back to this trust because it seems to me actually fundamental and elemental to everything in america right now, truly.
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the ftc ran this analysis where they try to look at, if the u.s. had dug marks vaccination rate, what we would expect. and you just see, that is hospitalizations. the top is what we actually had. the blue is what we modeled, would have had, if we had denmark's level of vaccination. it seems to me -- i keep going around in a circle, but when you keep coming back to one thing -- vaccines, vaccines, vaccines really do make an enormous difference. >> and i think that this also speaks to the need that we need to rebuild trust in science and public health institutions and the government. our trust in all of those institutions really does formulate -- with our vaccination rates. and unfortunately, we have seen trust in science, public health, and government eroded during the course of the pandemic.
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we have seen public health -- real loss in public health leadership, officials who have retired, not been replaced, been fired or quit because of the stress of being harassed over the course of the pandemic. and so, we find ourselves in a much weaker position post pandemic as a result of all of that. >> so, let's talk about trust. because trust is elemental here. and tom, it is a fairly abstract concept so, if you are in the business of a country to country comparisons, particularly when you want to do qualifications on things like cases, hospitalizations -- how do you go about wrestling that down into something quantifiable that you can actually compare country to country? >> great. so, for government trust and also for inter personal trust, or trust that we have that others will do the right thing most of the time, these are two
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from surveys that have been running for decades. long running surveys with standard questions. allow these cross-country comparisons. and the message, fundamentally, of that study is this. when confronted by a contagious virus, the most effective thing a government can do to protect its citizens is to convince them to take the measures to protect themselves. and what we see in free societies is that depends on the trust we have in our government and the trust that we have others are doing the same, which is tied to our willingness to do so as well. and that has really distinguished what countries have done in this pandemic. >> and the u.s. is low and not ranking, tom. >> so, we are among the lowest in government trust. we have declined really since the watergate scandal, but then, even further after the financial crisis. one of the comparisons we make
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is what was done to build trust in west africa with the ebola epidemic and those are low trust societies. but believe it or not, the u. s. ranks lower in government trust then liberia, ghana, and sierra leone. that is how we have fallen. not quite as bad on trust than others, but still below the average. >> the problem here is that trust is prior to the messaging. this is what is so maddening and difficult about the position we find ourselves in. we can say, we have to restore trust in public health experts, and i can show the charts and say -- 16 times as likely to be hospitalized if not vaccinated. but that is all coming for me. no one has run the experiments and -- the new york city government. if you don't trust that, none of that works. it's like, so, you can't
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message your way out of it. you can't data where you're -- which i think has been the conundrum for public health throughout this. >> look, chris. there is no shortcut to building trust. and we may not be able to do that within the scope of this pandemic. but historically, we have been able to do this. and this is something i've written about with robert putnam who studies this idea of social trust. so, what has worked in the past? one is moral leadership. and i think health care workers, scientists, public health officials have really been voices of moral leadership in this moment. and pointing attention to health disparities, communities of color that have had disproportionate effects. and sounding the alarm about populations that are being left behind, whether it's here in the u.s. or around the world, as many of us, at the same time, are saying we're done with covid. the things that need to be done our relationship building and that means reaching across the
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aisle and also, problem solving. in communities, face to face. and i do think there are some seeds of hope here. -- community health worker programs have spread across the country during the pandemic. >> thank you both. appreciate it. that is all in on this wednesday night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. -- >> thank you at home for joining us this hour. happy to have you here tonight in my home. i'm sorry, i'm still at home and -- i'm still in quarantine because of a covid exposure. i cannot go back to the studio yet because i cannot wear a mask while i'm in the studio. again, there's nothing to worry about, i'm fine. i'm just poorly lit. and standing in my home office, which is weird, but it is what it is. i'm just trying to do my part to not spread covid and so i will be here tonight and tomorrow night as well. harvard medical school, as you might imagine is pretty consistently ranked the top medical school in the united states. structurally, though, harvard is not like some of the other
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top schools in the u.s.. harvard medical school is not attached to its own hospital. like, for example, stanford medical school is really highly ranked. same goes for johns hopkins goen they've got that incredibly highly ranked medical school, johns hopkins university hospital. also at the university of pennsylvania's hospital inso philadelphia. that's a common setup for big highly-ranked medical schools but that is not how it works for harvard. harvard is the top-ranked or one of the top-ranked schools in the united states year after year. but they don't have their own individual teaching hospital. instead, harvard medical school partners with a whole bunch of hospitals. they partner with more than a dozenre different hospitals and medical institutions in the boston area and they use all of them as their teaching hospitals and