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tv   Ayman  MSNBC  February 6, 2022 9:00pm-10:00pm PST

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wondering what actually goes into your multivitamin? at new chapter, its' innovation, organic ingredients, and fermentation. fermentation? yes. formulated to help you body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness, well done. >> welcome to ayman, hundreds of protesters took to the streets of downtown minneapolis, demanding justice in the fatal shooting of amir locke. i'm going to speak with the locke family attorney, antonio romanucci, coming up in just a few minutes. plus, talks around salvaging the 2015 nuclear deal are entering the face. my conversation with the u.s. envoy. and are you feeling stressed about the state of politics in america, you are not alone. a growing percentage of americans say that they are too. i am hot ayman mohyeldin, let's get started.
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i want to start tonight's show, by asking you at home, to take a look at where you are in this very minute. where are you sitting? what are you doing? are you sitting on the couch tucked under a blanket, maybe you will doze off there before you can make it to bed. look, honestly, we have all been there. now imagine that in the comfort of that moment, you wake up in the early hours of the morning to a group of armed men barging into your home. you are confused, you are scared. what are you going to do? how are you going to react? for 22-year-old amir locke, a black man in minneapolis, this was not some imaginative scenario. no it was not. early wednesday morning, police killed lock well executing a no knock warrant. and until we get into the circumstances surrounding his death, i want to take a step
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back for a moment. i want to tell you a little bit about his life. because once again, we have to learn about another black man in america, not because of how he lived, or what he wanted to do, or what he did with his life. but by how he was killed by the police. amir was born in the suburbs of st. paul minnesota. as a kid he played basketball. even tried out for his high school football team, but it's true passion in life, his true calling, was music. and before his death, locke had filed paperwork to file a music business. even designing a logo. this week, the 22-year-old had planned to move to dallas, where he had hoped to take the next step in his hip-hop career and be closer to his mom. his father described his son as a bright light. and his cousin remembered locke as having a big heart. in minneapolis, he worked as a food delivery driver. and according to his family, he had regions lee purchased a gun, due to protection and a spike in carjacking.
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and that gun, which his family said was featured legally. is now the center of what took place on wednesday morning. when police entered his apartment, they found locke sleeping under a couch, with his weapon nearby. in newly released body cam footage, we can see the moments that lead up to lockstep. and we have to warn you at home, this could be hard to watch. here you see officers entering apartment with the key. and just nine seconds later, minneapolis police officer shoots locke. here is the thing. no knock raids are supposed to be rarely used as a police tactic. they were designed to give law enforcement a tactical advantage. because under a no knock warrant, these can actually enter a private property without first alerting those inside. hence the name, no knock. they are commonly used for drug busts. so that suspects can potentially avoid hiding evidence. but the no knock warrant that
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police had that day was for a homicide investigation, not a drug bust. and amir locke name, was no where on that warrant. in fact, it wasn't even his apartment. if this whole ordeal sounds familiar to you. it's that's because it is. no knock warrants came under intense criticism under the killing of breonna taylor, during a no-knock raid in kentucky. and now, following the fatal shooting of a mere lock. the minneapolis mayor ordered a halt to this tactic. well the city consult with experts, to review, and possibly revised the policy. look, amir locke comes at a time when the city of minneapolis is already on edge, following the death of george floyd. at the hands of ex police officer derek chauvin. the underlying on police violence. but also put into question, clearly, how much we can take law enforcement at their word. activists in minneapolis are already questioning local
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authorities over their report for went down on wednesday morning. during a press conference after the release of that body cam footage, a local civil rights attorney, who also serves as the co-chair of the city's new commission on communities safety, called out mayor fry, and interim police chief, demanding answers and accountability, like we all do. >> i don't know how you guys slept that night. i couldn't sleep at night. tears, from a mother's perspective, thinking about what happened. i saw the picture of a mere. he looks like a boy. my son is 17 years old. he has slept on his friends count just for sleep overs. so we cannot sit here and whitewash this, pretend like it is okay. i signed up to help bring recommendations, because we are tired of being killed. we are tired of the cover-up's, we are tired of the excuses. >> as we all wait for more details to come to light.
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exchange locke family hopes their son's death sparks change and not just conversation. >> i want everybody to know that my son is going to make sure that everybody across the united states is going to be able to sleep on the couch without having to be worried about being executed by the police. joining me now is antonio romanucci, one of the lawyers representing the locke's family. also represented george floyd's family and their case in minneapolis and the four police officers involved in floyd's death. mr. romanucci, thank you for joining us this evening. in a statement that minneapolis police put out on wednesday, they referred to locke as a suspect. and said that his gun was quote, pointed in the direction of officers. we now know that lock was not listed on that warrant. and the body cam footage really doesn't clearly shows the gun pointed at officers. at least not from what i have seen of it.
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do you think the minneapolis police department deliberately misled the public, or is misleading the public with that statement? >> so ayman, first of all you did a great job setting up the scene, in which a amir was killed. it is a tragic circumstance without question. i am really bothered by the narrative. not only am i bothered by the narratives that we heard from the minneapolis police department. but look, i have to tell you that i am bothered by the narratives that police department put out after people are killed. because the narratives are always used as a means to justify the shooting. and that is what happened here. so the words were written deliberately. whether or not they were deliberate and what they meant to say, we have to admit, we have to say what it is, those words were put on their deliberately. because, if indeed the gun was pointed at a police officer, they are trying to use that as a means of justification. and even if the gun was pointed, under these circumstances, this
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was an unjustified killing of a young man. on a no knock warrant, which he was not named. in the early of the morning, when he was surprised, in a matter of seconds. so yes, i am very bothered by this narrative. and i think that this is where police departments need to change immediately. in order to show transparency. they are not transparent when they come out with narratives, which speak police language and also only attempt to justify their actions. >> i wanted to hone in on that for a moment, you also represented george floyd's family and what was interesting in that case as well, the first plea statement also did not match up with what we saw when the footage was ultimately released. with those documents surrounding it. he's and this doesn't seem like an isolated incident. the minneapolis police department has a credibility problem. and as a member of the community there, will kind of
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impact does that have on the community. -- >> when you don't have trust, it creates mistrust between police and community. and so many times we hear police department say, we need the communities assistance. neither solving crimes, or keeping crime down. well you cannot have it both waste. you have to have cooperation both ways. and right now, minneapolis has a credibility problems. the first narrative we heard there was that mr. floyd had a medical emergency and the medical emergency with somebody choking him to death for nine and a half minutes. here with a mere, we hear the police say that they were continuously announcing their appearance for being there, well amir was pointing a gun at somebody. and the body worn cameras that we see, does not matchup at all. so we have to straighten out this narrative, in order to gain trust and be credible with
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the communities. that is one of the simplest things that can be done for a police departments, in order to engage their community. and we see how hard it is for departments to do that. >> can you shed some light on what you have been able to ascertain so far, either from family's conversations with the minneapolis police department surrounding this, and more importantly, you have confidence that this investigation can be carried out by the minneapolis police department? it seems counterintuitive to me, that a police department that is involved in a shooting of a potentially innocent man on a couch, is also asked to carry out that investigation. are you seeking an independent investigation from a jurisdiction beyond the minneapolis police department here? what do you and the family want to see happen right now. i'm sorry i asked a lot of questions surrounding this, i'm just trying to get as much information in terms of what the family wants and how the investigation should proceed from here on out. >> the one thing that we do know, the attorney general will
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be investigating. i think that is a good thing. because that is independent. although the attorney general is technically not a police agency, they are the highest legal authority in the state of minnesota. so i do have confidence that the attorney office will conduct a very thorough investigations. so let us see what they have to say. secondly, what does the family want. while the family clearly requires, not asking, but they require, and they demand, justice. they demand criminal justice. they demand administrative justice. and they will demand civil justice. they want everything across the board here. because there is no way that amir should be dead right now. had the police department done with they should have done. had they articulated the reason. the dangerousness for a no knock warrant, which we saw did not exist, and we would be alive right now. >> one of the points that
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people have brought up, certainly activists, is that the lessons of what happened to breonna taylor were not learned if you will, by other police departments. and it is part of the reason why people are calling for a national effort to reform police departments in this country. we know that has been fraught and push back against. people say it has to happen in a different community. local communities have to make these decisions. had there been a lesson learned from breonna taylor, that no knock warrants were not necessarily effective and could have prevented amir's death. we have found ourselves in the situation if minneapolis had learned their lessons, following what had happened to breonna taylor? >> very likely not. what we do know, recent statistics show that there are over 60,000 no knock rates carried out per year. that is exorbitant. it is extraordinary. and once we learned a lesson, and i heard your prior show before the top of the hour. when will the lessons be learned. you see, we take too much time in trying to learn lessons.
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municipalities that run police departments where police officers are sworn to uphold the law. and they wear a badge and they carry a gun and they have the authority to kill people when necessary. if you do not learn lessons when there is bad policing, then you cannot carry out good policing. because then it turns into this right here. where we are having this discussion. >> antonio romanucci sir, thank you so much for your time, greatly appreciated and look forward to following this case very closely. we will stay on top of it. >> thank you. >> still ahead, time is running out to salvage the 2015 iran nuclear deal. my conversation with the special envoy for a ron, rock malley. and plus, how is the january 6th insurrection and trump presidency traumatized us as a nation. i'm going to discuss that with my sunday night pillow. but first, richard is here with the panel. >> good evening. some of the stories we are watching for. a navy seal candidate died and another was hospitalized in san
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diego on friday. the sailor started experiencing symptoms, several hours after a issue that had happened during a training program known as hell week. the cause of death is currently under investigation. queen elizabeth celebrated her 70th year rain with a surprise announcement on saturday. the wife of prince charles, this is set to officially take the title of queen consort, when charles ascends the throne. it was previously speculated that camilla would only receive the title of princess consort. and in beijing, u.s. won the first medal of the 2022 winter games on saturday. olympic snowboarder julia marino took the silver in the woman's snowboard slope style. zoe of new zealand won a gold for new zealand, a first for the country in the olympics. more with a man, right after this. re with a man, this
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horrible, one-sided deal that should've never been made. with those words and accompanying decision to pull out of the iran nuclear deal, donald trump made the world the less safe place and it is true now. according to a report from the wall street journal, --
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[inaudible] despite these >> a month or even less. not everybody is giving up on. diplomacy the talks are happening. indiana can a deal be salvaged. special envoy for iran, i spoke to him for the status of these negotiations and more. robert, thank you so much for watching. the news this week's makes the deal look like it is hanging by this thread and say that the iran's nuclear program has gone too far for the original framework to even matter. what should we be making up the headlines this week? >> thank you, it is great to be on your show. and no u.s. official says there is a point of giving back into the deal, given the information. on the contrary, what we know so far, it is just bolstered the case of getting back into
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the deal and we've learned the alternative. if we are not the deal, iran's unconstrained in their nuclear advances and that is why as of today, we are only a few weeks away from enriched uranium. the point you made, about the advances that they have made over the years. since we withdrew from the deal, that it is going to be hard to capture the proliferation of benefits. the whole breakout timeline achieved in 2015, 2016. that is obviously one of the catastrophic consequences of the decision to leave the deal. but our experts say, as of today, that is the position of president biden, secretary blinken. as of today it is still well worth getting back into the deal. there's still much that can be salvaged. not for much longer, but as of today, our view is getting back into the deal will be profound in national security interests. profound in the interest of seeing iran advance towards a bomb.
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and avoiding more tension and conflagration in the middle east. so as of today, it is clearly the u.s. position. and it is still worth going into the deal. and we've said very openly to iran, that will not be the case much longer. which is why we say, we only have a few more weeks to go at the current pace of iran's nuclear advances. for to get back into the deal. or unfortunately, we are going to face a very different reality. >> i'm sure that you have seen some of the comments made on capitol hill this week. senator bob menendez question the point of rejoining the deal as you were just making the case for. let me just play for you the soundbite on what he had to say about your perspective on the deal. >> to quote again, rob malley, the presidents iran negotiator, trying to revive the deal at this point would be quote, tantamount to trying to revive a dead corpse. >> all right, so. according to him in that
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specific quote that he used of the. he is trying to make you sound pretty hopeless. obviously, that is not the case. senator menendez visual aid this week seemed that it was reminding of a similar 1:10 years ago. what do you say to bob an end as there and him using his quote. >> we have a lot of respect and worked very closely on chairman menendez with all issues. we know he was unemployment. we respect that you. we continue to talk to him about it. and the quote was, that at this pace, if we continue, we are trying to revive it would be tantamount to reviving that corpse. president biden still wants us to negotiate in vienna. we are going back next week. that is a sign of our continued belief that it is not a dead corpse. that we need to revive. because it is in our interest. it is the best way we have, to put iran's nuclear program back in a box.
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and to make sure, that we can put that problem to the side. as we do with so many other issues that iran presents to us. so no, we have not reached that point, but i think it is very clear that if we do not reach a deal soon that point will have been reached. and then we will have to think about other ways to address iran's nuclear program. it is our european partners, the best way forward, to try and get back into the deal, if iran is prepared to do its share and come back within full compliance of its obligations. >> let me play for you another clip, if i can, from the un assembly last fall. he had this to say about iran's nuclear capability at the time. >> ron snugly a program has hit a watershed moment. and so has our tolerance. words do not stop centrifuges from spinning.
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>> words don't stop centrifuges, but military actions, with that stop the centrifuge? we know we have asked to have them join a military exercises. it was something you are prepared for, if diplomacy fails? >> again, we have worked very closely with the israeli government. we've been transparent with them. we do have a disagreement on this issue. but our belief is not that words are going to stop iran's nuclear program. it is that the deal, the agreement that we reached, proved that we would stop it. and it would stop it again. we have lived the alternative. this is not a counterfactual. this is an experiment we have learned for three years. without the deal, we saw what happened to iran's nuclear program. and the maximum pressure campaign, did the opposite of stopping iran's nuclear program, iran's nuclear program accelerated. we need to get back into the deal if iran is prepared to do so and we are prepared to do our share. lifting those sanctions that were imposed by president trump. and that are consistent with the deal. if iran chooses a different
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path, of course we are prepared, and will use the tools that we have to put pressure on iran, to make sure that they cannot acquire a bomb. which is the commitment that president biden has made. they are open for diplomacy, using other tools at our disposal to make sure that iran cannot move towards acquiring a bomb. so that is going to be our policy. it is our policy to work with all of our partners to achieve. it we have differences with israel, but we are working hand in glove with them. to make sure that our common interests are funded. even if we have this difference of views on that wisdom of getting back into the jcpoa. and i've noticed, i'm sure you've noted as well, then over the last several weeks, we've had almost every day, former israeli officials come out and say, including those who are in favor of the to decision to withdraw from the deal in 2018, today they're saying it was a catastrophic decision. one of the most cost lee decisions made for israeli cause as -- they face there on that is only weeks away from having a bomb.
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as with the jcpoa, they're months and months away from having that threshold. so i think that recognition is something that is sobering. and we hope that other people will do as well. >> let's look at it from a slightly different perspective, from the iranian perspective for a moment. because they are the other side of this equation. and from there and, they have no reason to trust the united states. we tore up the deal. violated the pact, by imposing more sanctions against them. we assassinated their top military general. what reason do you think that they have to trust us? to believe that any deal will even last beyond this administration? if you are iranian, would you trust anything the u.s. is offering? >> i am not going to put myself in their shoes. i will say this, which is what we have conveyed to them. it is true, we cannot bind the future president. that is a decision that whoever comes into the oval office in the future will have to make. when we do say, president biden has made clear that he will stand compliant with the deal. u.s. will stand complying with the deal. as long as iran is in
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compliance. he would not be expending this political capital on trying to get back into the deal, if the point was then to leave it. now let's get back into a deal soon as possible. show that it can bring benefits, both through the united states and iran. and then let's try to build on it, to reach other understandings which will make it even stronger. make it more bipartisan. more regional support in the middle east. so we have never said that the jcpoa is the end of diplomacy. on the contrary, we have said that it is a necessary step so that we can lift some sanctions and iran would come back into compliance with obligations, so that we no longer worry. for now, about iran's nuclear program. we said we should build on it, and that is our view. and we think that iran should also have an interest in addressing other issues that have not been addressed by the jcpoa. we cannot make a promise that we cannot hold. president biden will not make, it i will not make it, we are not going to tell iran that once we get into the deal, no president can teared up. if future president could do that.
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we don't intend to, if iran is consistent with its obligations. and our hope is that we can show that this is a deal that is in mutual benefit. which is the best way to ensure that it is sustainable and to build on it, and to strengthen it. >> iranians were compliant with the deal, by everyone's assessment, and you suggestion that the u.s. and iran should step back into the deal at the same time. and go from there. my question is, the u.s. left the deal first, why not be the first to rejoin. why not say, we are going to go back into this deal. no conditions. and we will pick it up from the point where we as a country broke our promise in the first place. >> first of all, sequence of who goes first and socket that is not really the issue. but if we were suggesting is that the u.s. should just go back and then hope that iran will follow suit, i think that the ten months of negotiation proves that this is not simply a light switch. we have different views of what it means for the u.s. to be back in compliance. they want us to lift all of the sanctions that president trump imposed. and we say that some of them he imposed, because of iran's
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behavior, that has nothing to do with the nuclear deal. and so those we intend to maintain. even though a majority would lift. likewise, we have requirements for what it would mean from iran to come back into compliance with a deal. which we have not settled on yet. so we've not agreed with them yet. so we could take the step and say that we are back in. they would challenge that they are back in. they may not take the steps that are required. it is complicated. again, one of the legacies that we have to deal with with prior ministration. but it is not as easy as some people think it is, which is not going back in and hoping that iran will follow suit. because we have to agree, what does it mean for the united states to be back in compliance. what does it mean for iran to be back in compliance. >> robert, final question for you. what do you say for people that say why can't we live with a nuclear iran. we live with nuclear countries. they are a rational actor. the u.s. concludes that iran is a rational actor. by self preservation. what do you say to somebody that says iran wants a nuclear weapon even though they don't, even though they've made clear that they do not want it. and i understand it is about
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trust. but at the same time, why wouldn't we be able to live with a nuclear iran, the same way we live with nuclear north korea, or pakistan, or other countries. >> the notion of a nuclear arms race in a region. a nation that has suffered so much instability and has cost us, united states, in so many ways. i think that is something we should not even contemplate. iran has shown in its behavior across the region that it has engaged in destabilizing activities. iran armed with a nuclear weapon would do it even worse. it's a commitment that president biden and former presidents have made, that they will not allow iran to acquire nuclear arms and that is not about the change. >> my thanks to the u.s. special envoy for iran, romelu, for joining us. coming up, the january six committee is employing tactics, typically used against mobsters and terrorists in their investigation. congresswoman barbara lee is here to discuss with this aggressive approach could mean for the final report, stay with us. l report, stay wit us
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sharp, stabbing pains, or an intense burning sensation. what is this nightmare? it's how some people describe... shingles. a painful, blistering rash that could interrupt your life for weeks. forget social events and weekend getaways. if you've had chickenpox, the virus that causes shingles is already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. >> trump loyalists in congress
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are in panic mode. and they're actually right to be. in fact, the january six committee just secured white house records that detail calls donald trump made on the day of the capitol attack. one of those calls was to republican congressman, jim jordan, who had a pretty lengthy chat with trump that morning. and that is not breaking news in fact. jordan already admitted that he was in contact with the president that day. it is noteworthy how, are the insights that we have gained into how strategically and aggressive they committees investigating those investigations. with telephone records and metadata, house -- employing link analysis. and then mapping technique used to study terrorist networks. in order to find out the truth. joining us to discuss this, california congresswoman barbara ali. thank you for joining us. what is your reaction to what is being described as this aggressive tactics by the
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committee. is this the only way to break through trump stonewalling. trump and his allies stonewalling? >> nice meeting with you. and thank you. listen, chairman thompson and his committee are doing the job they were asked to do. they are doing a phenomenal job. they are trying to make sure that this never happens again. they are trying to make sure that this democracy is secured. and what they are doing now is mounting the campaign. the agenda and tactics and strategies that they think are warranted. when you have individuals, especially in trump's inner circle. acting above the law and in a lawless fashion. come on, what do you do? you cannot let anybody get away with it until coming forth with the truth. this was almost a coup. the peaceful transfer of power
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almost did not happen. this was a violent insurgency. and so chairman thompson is doing the right thing. if they won't step forward, they're saying no to the subpoenas. they are basically just acting as if they are above the law. no one is above the law. and i can tell you one thing, when you asked in a lawless fashion like they're acting. the committee has the right to pursue the tactics that they deem necessary to get the facts. to make sure those recommendations are made. so that this will never happen again. . i have to ask you if you are concerned about this. the committee's approach carries a little bit of risk, that it could fail to bring up compelling information about trump's efforts to hold on to power. certainly to me, the legal threshold, are you concerned for the outcome of the investigation at all? and do you see a world where the committee could not make a persuasive legal case for the
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department of justice to act upon? >> no, i think that chairman thompson and the committee are doing the right thing. they have brilliant lawyers. they have excellent strategists. they are looking at the facts. they are pursuing every avenue that they must pursue. and of course, the justice department is conducting the criminal investigations. but our committee is doing everything necessary to make sure that the facts are not only gathered, but exposed. that the public understands what took place. so that the recommendations could be made, so that this will never happen again. and i believe that they know exactly what they're doing and i think that we have seen already, the accomplishments and product of their work. which your personal and >> i want to switch gears for a moment, and talk about personal expertise. we were the only member of congress to vote against the war in afghanistan.
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i'm -- think i know you received death threats. i think history has shown that you made the right call and i'm curious for your thoughts now. as it appears that we are on the brink of a potential proxy war with russia. white house officials questioning the doubt of america strategy and what do you make of everything happening with ukraine, russia and the united states. >> when i was in ukraine in 2019, i talked to many ukrainians. they are people who love their country, they are proud, they are resilient. they want democracy. and they are a sovereign country and have the right to determine their allies and their alliances. secondly, president biden i think is doing the right thing by mounting a very robust diplomatic strategy. we have well respected diplomats. there are seasoned diplomats. they know exactly what they're doing. and so we have to move forward
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and allow the diplomats to do their job, without putting forth and i am concerned about the more troops being sent. as well as the defensive weapon systems. that are based around, but also weapons systems in ukrainians. any mistake could happen. the president says there will be no ground troops, and i will believe them. there could be miscalculations. and anything that undermines the diplomatic initiative right now, i think we have to be very careful, as we move forward. because it is a very dangerous situation. it is very complex. and i really firmly believe that we have to let the diplomatic strategy work, without interference. and without undermining it with other forms of military threats. because, you never know.
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it could be a deterrent, but it also could be provocative. and in fact than, we are in a another ball game. the state department has done a fine job in their diplomatic initiatives and we need to allow them to continue to do that. >> congresswoman barbara, always a pleasure, thank you for your time, greatly appreciated. still ahead, there is an old book drawing new controversy, i'm going to explain that to you next. wing new controversy wing new controversy i'm going to injectable cabenu. you next cabenuva is the only once-a-month, complete hiv treatment for adults who are undetectable. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by a healthcare provider once a month. hiv pills aren't on my mind. i love being able to pick up and go. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva.
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been a lot. the trump presidency, two impeachments, a global pandemic, insurrection on our navy shuns capital. it is not just you. we feel the same way. a recent study from the university of nebraska revealed that an estimated 40% of americans consistently identify politics as a significant source of stress and their lives. it is more than 100 million people in this country and that is deeply troubling. and it is not confined to one party. tonight, immediately after our show. msnbc zone films is preparing the documentary film, love and the constitution. the story of congressman jamie raskin and the nation suffering through unimaginable trauma. joining me now to discuss this is michelle goldberg, new york times columnist an msnbc political animals. michael steele, former chairman of the national committee and also an msnbc political analyst. and jeffrey gardere a boards
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psychologist and associate professor at the college of osteopathic medicine. it is great to have the three of you with us. michael, let me start with you. i want to play a bit from the film. in this clip congressman raskin recounts the devastation caused by the pandemic. including the attacks on his son tommy. who had been a student at harvard law school at the time. watch. >> covid-19 was a catastrophe for our country. the economic consequences of it were calamitous. we ended up losing hundreds of thousands of people. we have 82,000 of our fellow citizens who have died already and we have tens of millions who have been thrown out of work. we have seen massive shutdowns. harvard law school closed physically and tommy came back
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to live with us. he was on zoom doing his classes and it is a very strange and isolating time. >> tragically, tommy died by suicide at the end of 2020, only days before congressman raskin was task to lead the impeachment trial against donald trump. we all know that story. michael, back to you. how does one even begin to cope with the trauma of losing a child and an insurrection in tandem. >> it is hard. it's hard. and i've gotten to know jamie over the years. through our political battles and our alliances. and it is a real pleasure to recruit him now in this democracy space. i appreciate the leadership that he is bringing to this. at the same time, he paid a price. that isolation for his son was devastating. and his son is one of hundreds of thousands who carried out
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that burden. and tried to cope with this and live with it. and it speaks a lot to how that aspect of covid is something that is often lost on leadership. that people get caught up in the numbers. what percentage of that, how much of this we are not doing enough of x y nze. but behind all of those numbers are real people. and when you get into a situation where it becomes so polarized, that you can't even have decent, clear information. go out to citizens who desperately need it for one reason or another. , it adds to that burden once in a way that we don't necessarily recognize until it is too late. >> that is a very important point and i'm glad that you put that in perspective for us. we shall, in a recent columns, you discuss the devastation on the mental health of the country. by the trump presidency. sometimes two policy decisions, whether you think of policies
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of separation, policies of the wall, policy is of the muslim ban. sometimes it is the gaslighting that we have to endure. you wrote that the crisis expresses itself in all sorts of ways. and rising rates of youth suicide, record overdoses, rams acts of street violence. months long waiting list for children therapist, max meltdown, qanon and some of the others that i listed there. is all of the stress driving our politics math, or is it the other way around? is the crazy politics in turn making us crazy? >> i think is a bit of an or else. i think it is a bit of a vicious cycle. the mental health crisis in this country. the fact that this is just such a grim time to be an american. for almost anyone. the fact that there is so much isolation. has made our politics particularly vicious. but all, this viciousness predates the pandemic. it predates trump, trump is in
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some ways a symptom of this as he is an accelerant of it. and i think we had a really broken policy. maybe more broken than many of us realized, before 2016. and it is just continued. continue to shatter. continue to fall apart. and the more that it falls apart, the more people are angry. the more they are lashing out. the more they're insecure and anxious. i talked about this with jamie raskin. and he very much feels that the ambient ugliness of politics in this country, of life in this country, the sort of absence of leaders, who are really able to provide people with tangible hope. was part of what led to the tragedy in his own family's life. >> yeah. and jeff, we think of our politicians as people supposed to inspire confidence, inspire hope, inspire optimism. that same university of nebraska study that i cited, reveal that between trump's
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2016 election victory and his 2020 reelection campaign, psychotherapists reported a significant jump of patients. reporting politics, negatively affecting their mental health. as a psychologist, what do you make of this sense of hopelessness and despair that people are experiencing over politics? have you ever seen anything like this. because i worry about, people say disengage from politics, and quite honestly, this is not the time to have a disengaged citizenry with everything that is happening. we need people to be vigilant and engaged, not disengage from our politics. even if it is politics of despair. >> yeah, i totally agree with you. i read one of michel's articles and she talks about one of the issues that people are having is that people are not able to disengage. and that seems to be a real problem for folks. and the advice that we get people's to be engaged as much as possible. so now they are stuck in this fight or flight. they do not know which way to
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go. they are physiological systems are in overdrive. and so this is really hurting them. especially when we look at people, not just opposed to donald trump's policies. not just democrats. but racial minorities and students who are racial minorities that i am very concerned about. because they have had an increase in suicide rates. and so this is something that we must address. >> michael, many people had hoped that was trump's departure from the white house, there would be an improvement of the mental state of the country. it does not seem like we have come out of that yet. things seem to remain quite dark. are you surprised by that? what do you think it is going to take collectively for the country to move forward from this trauma? >> i am not surprised. and it has been profoundly brought home to us by the declaration of my party this past week. that january 6th was a legitimate political discourse. when the country knows that it wasn't.
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so when you have such massive breakdown and dysfunction of one of the major political parties, it tends to make that recovery is that much more difficult. and when you have people resisting, as we have seen with the vice president. how many months now since january 6th? and he is just not saying that donald trump was wrong. that has a stress on the country's. and in so many ways. the body politic, to michel's point, is off. and to get it back on course is going to take a herculean effort by a lot of americans, who reaffirmed their belief in e pluribus unum. and the very foundations of the country. regardless of the past, we have to figure now how to move forward. if we don't, we will move forward separately, and that will not be the u.s.. >> and that is a very powerful reminder of what is at stake
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here. we are going to have to leave it at that. a very important conversation, but when i hope sparks the conversation elsewhere. michael steele, michelle goldberg, jeff gardere, thank you so much for having this conversation. and thank you for making time for us at home, stay tuned for law and the constitution next at 10 pm eastern on msnbc. we can catch ayman every friday on peacock at seven eastern, and msnbc on saturdays in sunday's. sundays at nine. but until we meet again, i'm ayman medina, goodnight. i'm i'm ayman in fact, subaru has won most trusted brand for more consecutive years than any other brand. no wonder kelley blue book also picked subaru once again. it's easy to love a brand you can trust. it's easy to love a subaru.
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