tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC March 30, 2022 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
antivirals needs congressional funding. the congressional funding has been laps right now. we will not have antivirals in time for the winter. >> we need to. it goes great to talk you, doctor gupta, all in with chris hayes starts now. tonight on all in. >> the actions that we have taken thus far will not be our last. we will follow the facts wherever they lead. >> new reporting for the washington post and justice department that has widened the genuine six investigation to more than we know. tonight congressman ship on what this expansion means, who the grandeur is talking to and the reporting missing white house call logs. then george conway on the ex presidents crimes and his slipping grip on the party. plus he says his republican colleagues were buy into orgies
and used cocaine, tonight the backlash against madison cawthorn. why ukraine's president tonight says his country is at a turning point. we know what is actually happening in the ground in kyiv when all in starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. we have breaking news tonight about the january six investigation, but not the one in congress. night after night, we keep telling you about the potential crimes that appeared to have been committed in the run up to the january six insurrection. there has been a safe to say a palpable frustration with a perceived lack of criminal investigation progress against those responsible. since july of last year when bipartisan select committee started investigating the insurrection, cooking documents, testimony, they have been essentially fire rockets towards the justice department for months now. with one consistent message, here's a whole bunch of evidence, maybe should do something. this happened most recently
during the monday's hearing when multiple committee members called on the doj to take stronger action against donald trump and his allies who were responsible for the attempted coup which culminated in the attack on the capitol. evidence of criminality is obvious. >> we have learned that president trump and his tree were warned in advance and repeatedly that the efforts they took to overturn the 2020 election, to violate the law and our constitution, they were warned that january six could and likely would turn violent. they were told repeatedly by our state and federal courts, by our justice department, and by agencies of our intelligence committee, that allegations of widespread fraud sufficient to turn over the election were false and unsupported by the evidence. and yet, despite all these
specific warnings, president trump and his team moved willfully through multiple means to attempt to halt the peaceful transfer of power to halt our constitution process for counting votes and to shatter the constitutional bedrock of our great nation. >> tonight on this hour, we are following breaking news precisely on that front. it seems as though, the department of justice is listening. the washington post now reporting that the just department investigation has expanded its scope as it relates to the attack on the capitol. quote, in the past few months, a federal grand jury in washington has issued subpoena requests to some officials in donald trump's orbit who had assisted in planning, funding and executing the general six rally, that is according to people familiar with the matter. we do not know who exactly is being suspended. that is not reported out and astoria. thanks to great investigative work by the general six committee, there is of course a long list of potential targets.
-- potentially disrupt the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in this country's history. this new phase of the investigation serves to highlight exactly why it is so obviously important that we find out what exactly happened during the missing seven-hour call logs during january six. we first got the glimpse of these documents when they were published by the washington post and cbs news yesterday. the house select committee has already has these documents. this is what the gap looks like in the presidential call out. it jumped out to you when you look at it like that. the last call, there at the top, generous six, 11:04 am, senator david perdue of georgia. the next one listed not until 6:54 pm, when donald trump instructs the operator to call back dave. just nothing listed between those over a period of 457
minutes in recent american history while a violent mob was ransacking the capitol on national television. we will talk more about what we learned about the calls that are captured in the log. first, the guardian is reporting that the trump used an official white house phone, through the switch forward, to call senator mike lee on january six. that call was previously reported. but that call is missing from the colleague. quote, the former president called with a play solar number that shows up when a call is in coming from a number of white house department phones, which means the call should have been reported in the internal call logs. we know from previous reporting that the call took place between two a 6 pm after rioters broke through the capitol building. mike pence evacuated from the senate floor for his own safety. as the chaos ensued, trump dialed likely, mistakenly thinking he's calling his colleague, a senator from
alabama. we hand over the phone who spoke with the president for several minutes. this new reporting that the call came from not a burner phone but the official white house phone sure seems close to a smoking gun. donald trump was not just avoiding using official lines on generous except partly, maybe using cell phones, so-called burner phones, something trump claims he knows nothing about. although his former national security adviser said he heard trump use the term burner phone several times. the guardian report indicates that trump or someone in the administration appears to have been tempering with the records. there should be a record of the calls from the switchboard, and it is not there, which means that it was removed at some point. but many others likely from the log. that said, the calls that are
recorded here before the mysterious disappearance window, do provide a window into what trump was doing on the day of the insurrection. locke show trump is still trying to show up support for the plan to overthrow the free and fair election, to circumvent the free electoral vote. he called josh hawley of missouri, infamously raising his fist to the insurrection, one of the leaders inside the senate to do with the mob wanted. that was to object the electoral college certification. probably not talk about the weather. and the evening, as the capitol police were still working to clear the building after 100 of their officers were injured, some concussed, some door and with their own guns, trump appeared to be concerned about social media. he spent several mediates on the phone at 7:01 pm just at their facebook removed his video addressing the rioters.
in fact, trump spoke to a lot of lawyers that night, which makes sense given where as transpired because several had been helping him with the plot to overturn the election. at 7:10 pm, you took a call from curl's in who is pushing trump's claims of election fraud. this is extra trump ransacked the capitol, after the violent insurrection. at 7:30, he spoke to former supreme court justice, one of the advisers from mike pence, it seems like he's thought it. 7:53, he spoke to quite a mitchell who's on the infamous call with brad who asked for finding votes that they need to win. after a violent mob attacked the cops and attacked the capitol and ran solved it, chanting hang mike pence outside, trump was still looking for ways to stay in power. still trying to get it done, get done with the mobs unable to get done, even after the
bloody siege of the capitol failed. this is just based on what we know, was not hidden, was not tampered with or deleted or excluded. it does not include the missing seven hours. with this new reporting tonight about an expanding doj investigation into the planning and financing at the rally, it is even more important that we know about all the commissions that donald trump had that day. in order to understand the full story about how the insurrection can to pass, it seems we need to know who donald trump spoke to over that missing seven hours and 37 minutes and crucially what they talked about, and why they wanted to hide it. jacqueline alemany congress for the washington post. she's one of the reporters on the expanded doj investigation. if you can fill us in on more, what have you learned? >> chris, thank you for having me. we have learned today that the criminal investigation into the january 6th attack has expanded,
probably much to the release of general six lawmakers who are serving on the panel investigating the insurrection and have been clamoring all week for the department of justice to take more action. we now see the justice department doing so, trying to determine the full extent from certifying joe biden's electoral victory on january six. there is not many details that we have been able to figure out about the actual investigation because it is a grand jury. grand jury's opinions are legal mechanisms to gather information for a criminal investigation by prosecutors. that does not mean that any particular recipient is under investigation or will face charges, but it is a start. >> you are right that the development shows that degree to which the justice department investigation which already involves more defendants than any other criminal prosecution in the nation's history, has
moved further beyond -- let's take a step back and elaborate. 722 of the finance. these are people that were directly involved in invading the capitol. a few months ago we got the first conspiracy charges. there is a pool of charges that you are trespassing trying to block congressional proceeding. then we get another charge of more serious prosecution, where you are part of the conspiracy that had mobilized and stash weapon. what you're reporting is indicating is the efforts to at least what they are looking at has moved up one level that chain to people that may have been organizing events around january six that aren't directly involved in the storming itself. >> that is exactly right. some of the subpoena requests
have gone to former officials and former president trump's orbit, who actually assisted in the logistics around the rally, planning the funding an execution. this is aligned with the strategy of the justice department that they were going to take all along, starting for the bottom up, moving their way up to people closer and closer to the former president. again those people that have received subpoenas had very limited information because of the nature of the investigation. prosecutors are trying to keep this as under wraps as possible, but we have heard from sources that the subpoenas of the scope of what has been asked for is very similar to the january six investigation had also asked for the officials also subpoena. >> all right jacqueline alemany, good reporting for the washington post. thank you for joining us. congressman adam schiff is a democrat from california. he serves on the house
committee for the january six investigation. he joins me now. congressman, your reaction to this news about department of justice, it's significance, and what you think about it? >> i have no reason to believe it isn't. it is significant. frankly i believe it is long overdue. we are now well over a year after the attack on the capitol. there has been consistent level of concern, not just among members of congress but in the public. it should not just be the people that broke into the capitol that day, but those that organize the attack and are under scrutiny. i feel, frankly, better about whether the department is doing everything they should when i see signs that they're looking beyond the attack on the six and look at some of the other ways in which they tried to overturn the election.
what they found was evidence of likely chemical activity from the former president. >> trump's actions more likely than not constitute attempts to obstruct an official proceeding, that is, criminal obstruction of the court of presidential echo votes in congress -- that is obviously not the standard proof that will be necessary to convict in trial. but it is a remarkable finding in a sitting judge to say it is more likely than not that the president has committed this official pony. i guess my feeling watching is the whole time is, what trump did in congress is unprecedented, but not in the conflicts of the world. people try coups where they try to stay in power. usually it is a shoot the moon situation. you succeed or you don't and face consequences. it is pretty --
>> that is exactly right. it is important to recognize that, yes, there is a different standard than the one that george carter applied. he did not need to find proof beyond reasonable doubt when those documents were turned over to congress. you also do not need proof beyond reasonable doubt to start an investigation. indeed, you almost never have proof beyond reasonable about when you begin the investigation. the former judge is saying that there is proof that more likely than not, donald trump engaged in a crime of trying to overturn the election. that is well substantiated. that is a pretty significant basis for the justice department to say we have to look into the. again, i am glad they are examining those who may have funded and organized the rally. we have been doing that now for months and months. it is late but i, i am glad they are doing it. they also need to look at the multiple lines of effort to
overturn the election. they need to look at anyone that is involved, no one gets a pass, not a former president, or someone who's never held office before. >> let me ask you put the call. alex it's one of the things where no one has yet sufficiently established that there was tampering at the time with the actual records. it seems there is no plausible explanation. what is your theory or belief how there is >> a seven-hour gap in those logs? you know. i speculated about the reason for the gap for the logs. there are a lot of possibilities. of course, it is possible that the records were deliberately omitting certain calls. but it is possible there are other explanations that are more benign. i don't want to have to rush the judgment. i can also tell you that we
have multiple sources of information about what the president was doing, and more importantly as it turns out, what he was not doing while the capital was being attacked. so we are not relying just on the logs we get from the archives, we are talking to witnesses, many of whom were in the room that day with the president. we are knowledgeable about what he was doing, or others who have been privy to phone conversations. so we are going to complete the picture about what he was doing, and if there was any kind of intent to obstruct, conceal, cover-up with respect to those logs. we will get those answers as well. >> yes. just a follow-up on that, my understanding is if there was any tampering, particularly in the moment, it would involve people, right? i mean, there are other people who are tasked with this, or detailed by monroe to have to do it. so, if they tampered with it, we will find out.
do you feel confident of that? >> i do. i do feel confident of that. the other thing to bear in mind about the record keeping is, i think we have seen enough already to know that the white house wasn't following the law when it comes to record keeping in many respects. all of those boxes of documents in mar-a-lago, some of which are evidently classified. they were highly classified. those are also a really serious problem, the reporting of the -- down the toilet. so it is not like they don't have a history here of failing to follow the law when it comes to record keeping. >> yes. it is show shocking to giving what a feather she has for proper document retention protocols that's in the 2016 campaign. congressman adam schiff, thank you very much. tonight, as we learn the justice department has reportedly expanded its investigation of january six be on the account on the capitol,
makes this bit of reporting in the new york times a bit more interesting. the federal prosecutors have collected evidence showing how one tweet from donald trump played a crucial role in exciting the far-right group who showed up to storm the capitol. i will talk to one of the reporters who broke that story right after this break. afr tethis break at hiv. it's every-other-month, injectable cabenuva. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by a healthcare provider every other month. it's one less thing to think about while traveling. hiv pills aren't on my mind. a quick change in my plans is no big deal. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy.
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>> the revelation that there is a 457 gap in the phone logs on january six has renewed scrutiny of the presidents phone usage on the day of the insurrection. now, of course, we know that donald trump was making calls that day, and likely during that period. some raised the possibility donald trump was raising a burner phone, and despite his claims he doesn't even know what a burner phone means, we also know that is not true, or at least that is what former national security adviser john bolton says. he says he heard trump used the phrase in several discussions. maybe they were just talking about the wire, who knows? but donald trump's public pronouncements on january six are also getting new attention. particularly this tweet which, i have to say was striking at
the time. it was not like -- went on notice. on december 2020 he says big protest in d.c. on january 6th, be, there will be wild. according to new reporting from the new york times, extremist groups almost immediately celebrated mr. trump's twitter message, which was widely interpreted as an invitation to descend on the city and force. responding to the presidents words, the group sprang into action, court filings in interviews from -- extremist begin to set up encrypted communications channels, and in one case prepared heavily armed quick reaction forces to be staged outside washington. trump said it is going to be wild! it is going to be wild! kelly megs, a florida leader of the oath keepers wrote on facebook on december 22nd. he wants us to make it wild, that is what he is saying. he called us all to the capitol and wants us to make it wild! yes sir, yes sir! gentlemen, we are heading to d.c.. joining me now is one of the authors of that report, michael schmidt, prize winning journalist and new york times washington correspondent.
think actual evidence we started there indicates, in the process of these prosecutions of a lot of, people it seems that the department of justice has come a con this finding, that it has organically emerged as they have been sifting through this evidence that a lot of people heard something very specific in that tweet. >> it paints a picture of donald trump as truly the leader of a movement. a movement of people that followed everywhere he said. sometimes we have to think about a pre-trump world in this, and think there is a reason why leaders don't say things typically like that, because they have people that followed them. >> it will be wild is not a thing a president normally says. >> right. on a day that is consequential, in which it is clear that they are trying everything they can to overturn the election. and they responded you in very detailed ways. i think what made the story
convincing to us is that it was not just one case, it wasn't just one trial, it wasn't one congressional disclosure, coming out of the committee this was across the board. you start to see these themes in the documents as they continue to be followed. we have hundreds on hundreds of cases that are being prosecuted. and inside the documents in those cases are the little pieces, these clues, about how the prosecutors are viewing things. this is something that they have keyed and on. >> you say that the next day, this is after the prosecutors say he began to make arrangements to travel to washington to arrive in time to -- and the three percenters group chat, he says that he claimed to drive because flying was impossible with all of the battle rattle he planned to bring. some of the group appeared to share his anger, december 22nd one member of the chat said the
only way you will be able to do anything to d.c. is if you get the crowd to drag the traders out. what is interesting to me is that there are two audiences, the more casual i will go with my maga flag, but then the most hard-core people are also hearing something very specific in that call. >> they call them nor means. these are people maybe who are not part of the militant groups that are trump followers. and i think what the surprise was on january six was that the normies we're going to go along with what the militants were doing. and i think the militants were so surprised by how much they normies were willing to go and storm in the way that they did. that is why i think that they did as much damage as they did. because they had all of those people. it was not just the militant. >> one of the great things in that incredible piece the times did, the visual investigation, was at every key moment where
transgression happens at this point of contact, it tends to be these folks. the three percenters. the oath keepers. the proud boys. who were the first people to jump the barrier. break the window, and to, and then you have hundreds and hundreds of people behind. so there is this interplay, and we are seeing it here where it is like the president puts out this call, these folks mobilize, this sort of cadre, and then this huge crowd following. >> here is the abnormality of january six that really struck me. if you are a police officer, and you have a -- with someone on the street, that is going to happen pretty quickly, maybe a struggle goes on for a few minutes before someone comes. this was hand to hand combat between the police and the rioters that went on for hours. and there are injuries, and things that come out of that, that law enforcement does not see in the typical day today, because there are not our long fights hand to hand between
groups of individuals trying to repel them. and that has always struck me about the violence on the sixth. >> all right, michael schmidt, thank you very much for joining us. whatever power the big lie had on january 6th, trump's obsession with 2020 seems more and more pathetic. the big lie that is coming up. vazalore 325 liquid-filled aspirin capsule is clinically shown in a 7 day study to cause fewer ulcers than immediate release aspirin. vazalore. the first liquid-filled aspirin capsules...amazing! mission control, we are go for launch. um, she's eating the rocket. ♪♪ lunchables! built to be eaten.
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large out-of-state corporations have set their sightsu s on california.p! they've written a ballot proposal to allow online sports betting. they tell us it will fund programs for the homeless, but read the fine print. 90% of the profits go to out-of-state corporations, leaving almost nothing for the homeless. no real jobs are created here. but the promise between our state and our sovereign tribes would be broken forever. these out-of-state corporations don't care about california. but we do. >> tonight, the brutal russian stand with us. attacks on ukraine are continuing as peace negotiations are underway in
turkey. today, the lead russian negotiator said that they appear to be on the verge of a breakthrough with ukraine agreeing to a number of conditions. that is in line with what the russian foreign minister sergei told their state media today. >> -- >> i am not so sure about that last. part of all ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy told russian journalist sunday that
neutrality and non nuclear status returning on the table, a spokesman for ukraine's foreign ministry said keep was only able to discuss the final status of crimea and donbas once kyiv has its sovereignty over them. the fact that negotiations are happening at all is a reason for maybe cautious optimism? as the russian invasion entrance just six weeks and attacks from eastern ukraine intensify. one of the main indicators we have for whether things are changing is the situation on the ground. so dark and robin is a correspondent with the washington post. he is currently covering the watching -- he joins me from kyiv right. no sudarsan raghavan, there was a lot of noise made over the last 48 hours about russia redeploying from kyiv, diminishing its presence around kyiv, giving up on the attempt to encircle it. white house have been likened that city over the last two days? >> it is hard to tell what is happening all around kyiv, but certainly, we had a team of our
-- was in the northern part of kyiv earlier today. they were bombarded, actually, they were in this village, and suddenly you have russian artillery hitting them, and they have to duck for cover in a shelter. so certainly in that part of the area which is roughly about 20 miles north of kyiv, the fighting is still going on. so you, know the past few days, it has been a bit intense on the outskirts of kyiv. you definitely have fighting in places like irpin, as well as some other villages, and towns in the area. certainly at night, we have been hearing shelling both outgoing and incoming in under round the capital. >> how is the city functioning right now? we look at places, and the worst hit places have been, i think it is fair to say
mariupol, which is a humanitarian disaster the russians have triggered. they created siege conditions in which people are starving and dying in just horrible ways. in kharkiv as well, it has been shelled intensely. how is key was a city holding up amid this? >> the situation in kyiv is much different than what is happening in kharkiv or mariupol. when people are expecting the same thing that happened, intense bombardment in kyiv, it's so far has not materialized. in fact, what we are seeing here, especially in the past, a week or ten days or so, is sort of a resurrection of life to say the least. despite the fact that there is still bombings going on in and around the capitol, people are trying to move on with their lives. you are seeing people coming out, going for walks on the street, copies, and restaurants, some of them are opening up. harris salons are opening up.
it really is a mixed picture. it is very surreal. even during that time to see the difference. the other day i was in an area where we were being shelled by the russians, and 20 minutes later i was in a restaurant in downtown kyiv where it was still -- you could order a cheeseburger and fries, it is a very surreal situation in kyiv. but at the same time, this is a reflection of the resilience of ukrainian people. despite the fact that they are still in danger, they still have their underground bunkers ready, they are -- they want to move on, and continue their lives. they are trying to get some semblance of a normal life back. >> that is an amazing dispatch. there is one lesson i have learned over the last several years, it is the human ability to adapt, and it's will towards normalcy is incredible. incredible feature of our species. sudarsan raghavan, i thank you very much. >> my pleasure. >> still to come, is donald
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are so mad that congressman -- not the reasons that you watching the show might be. they are not upset that he has been accused for sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior, allegations he denies, but now he suggested armed citizens should topple the u.s. government and a violent revolution, or he tweeted an article comparing black lives matter to nazism. one of those things seem to get fellow republicans upset, because they are accustomed to a certain amount of inexcusable behavior from trolls like cawthorn, -- cawthorn is in trouble for these comments. he recently made on a
right-wing podcast. >> look at all these people, a lot of them, you know i have looked up and my, life always paid attention to politics, guys who you know, all of a sudden you get invited -- hey we are going to have kind of a sexual get together at one of our homes, you should come. and i went, what did you just ask me to come to? and then you realize they are asking you to come to an orgy, or the fact that there are some of the people who are leading on the movement to try to remove addiction in our country, and you watch them, you know do cocaine right in front of you. >> there is so much you could say about that. i really like the dog with a blue hair behind his shoulder there. i have no idea if the statements are true or. not the closest we hoped anything like it its public reporting last may that two witnesses allegedly saw congressman matt gates of florida using cocaine of the party after 2019 fund-raiser. gates's office did not return a request from the daily beats for comments on that allegation. to be perfectly, honest i don't really care one way or the other. but cawthorn's fellow republicans do. and it is telling that these
comments, these are the ones that get congressman cawthorn in trouble. republican leader kevin mccarthy of california reportedly disciplined cawthorn, like a disappointed father, telling the 26 year old he needed to earn his trust back, and claiming that cawthorn told him he embellished his comments. cawthorn, embellishing? and mccarthy spoke out so forcefully because his caucus is demanding. yet according to politico, members of the far-right house freedom caucus has considered kicking cawthorn out of the group. now, republican congressman steve will much of arkansas who is 65 years old complained that he is now having questions from constituents about orgies. the last point is not all that surprising, here is what happened, cawthorn's allegations on a right-wing podcast of shadowy sex stories got caught up in the qanon dropped that these folks have been stocking up for years, played right into the republican believe that it is full of these to praise degenerates. it is notable that he has been rebuked by -- while sealing that --
a merge emerged relatively unscathed act she attended a white nationalist conference for the man who once delivered a extended rift about denying the holocaust. at the very, least we know where the line is. it is at the -- holocaust than ours are fine, but don't go telling people about republican drug and sex parties. we have an image to protect. unfortunately for republicans, the face of their party drags that image lower every time he shows up in public. george conway will be there to talk about that next. that next this is vuity™, the first and only fda approved eye-drop that improves age-related blurry near vision.
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anybody? on the election, you know i didn't have one person take that? and we have big ratings. i offered to debate any democratic politician on the election of 2020, and they didn't, because the count defended. >> debate me! nearly 18 months since he was defeated in the 2020 presidential election, donald trump is still, and probably whining about it. i, know i will be the first to admit, i am not the audience for this kind of thing. but the ex presidents 2020 obsession does feel increasingly pathetic and self diminishing. partly, that is because his grievance has come from a place of weakness, not strength. it is whining in a way that doesn't really make him feel good. i think even for people on the right, it is small, and complaining, and passed obsessed, and neurotic. it all seems part of a bigger story about the power of trump and how it seems, again, seems
to be winning. i think there is some anecdotal evidence. over the weekend, trump held a rally in a conservative part of georgia by several accounts was lacking in attendance and enthusiasm. in fact, atlanta journalist craig blumstein share this photo saying i covered more than two dozen trump rallies across the nation, this is a smallest crowd i have seen since he won the 2016 election. reporter stephen fowler shared this photo saying quote, people keep leaving during trump's speech, it is cold, windy, and not much enthusiasm. the lack of enthusiasm is also hurting trump's most devoted suffering porters who are pushing the lie that the election was stolen. take for example, alabama congressman moe brooks, the guy who spoke at trump's january 6th rally wearing a bulletproof vest, saying quote, today is the day american patriot start taking down names and kicking butt. trump endorsed him for reelection. actually, in the senate election happening in that state, for the open sentences.
he started trailing in the polls to another republican in the contest, trump withdrew that endorsement, just took it back, because it was not panning out in georgia, trump endorsed former republican senator david perdue against incumbent them republican governor brian kemp. and just for one reason, right? because trump believes kemp and raffensperger, too conservative republicans, did not do enough to help him steal the 2020 election. ahead of trump's disappointing rally in georgia last weekend, purdue was narrowly defeated for reelection in 2020. he said quote, in my election, in the presidents election, they were stolen. he is reported saying if he were elected he would decertify the 2020 georgia election results. i don't even think that is a thing. but again, it is not clear that this rhetoric is enough. a fox news poll earlier this month found purdue trailing kemp by 11 points, despite his embrace of trump, and the big lie, the election was stolen. those two georgia endorsements are about the coup and the
stolen election. those are the only defining issues in both races for trump. and they are risky endorsements for trump, because they are primary races against incumbents who were never aware of right wing republicans. george conway is a conservative attorney and columnist, his latest piece tonight is titled a federal judge said trump probably committed a crime, the doj counting nor that. he joins me now. i don't think, george, you are the audience for this either. but you are closer to possible audiences than i am. let's put it that way. you spent your life in conservative politics, i wonder if you think that there is a similar situation happening with power in both of these primary endorsements, and the general whining about 2020 shrinking. >> yes. i think the problem he has is that he has said it all before, again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and he is going to say it to his grave. it's boring. it is just not interesting anymore. and people have concerns of
donald trump's ego, and who won the 2020 election. i mean, he's somehow managed to advance its significant amount of republicans, that the election was stolen from. him the fact of the matter is, is not going to drive the vote in 22, and 2024? it didn't even drive the vote in january of 2021. so, you know, he is creating problems for the republican party by focusing, trying to focus the base of the party, on things that don't necessarily matter to the people who decide general elections. >> right. i think that that -- there are two really important points. that one is the boring this. i think this is, say what you will about donald trump, generally not boring. you know what i mean? that is not the -- he -- has ability to stoke attention, to be outrageous, to gain attention, but the other thing 's attention is a cool cruel mistress. peoples attention spans are short. if you keep saying the same thing in obsessing over the same things, it is hard to keep
their attention. the other thing that i think you pointed out here is that there is a narcissism here in which what he was good at before was channeling his grievances with the grievances of the people that he is trying to kind of cultivate. here it seems just wholly, his grievances, basically. how they blocked out anything else. >> right. you are sitting next to somebody on the plane, or on the bus, and they are just talking about wacky things that don't affect you. that is what he has been doing. he seems to be deteriorating in this regard. the other day he is asking putin to release all of the materials on hunter biden? what? we are in the middle -- putin is killing civilians in ukraine, and all donald trump hears about is, hey you may not like joe biden because he is trying to help you from killing civilians, so hey, let's talk about hunter biden, give us all your stuff on hunter biden. i mean, it is just absolute lunacy. >> and that i think is a part
of it as well. i think that the russia invasion of ukraine's clarifying in this way. even though you have elements the right-wing base, marjorie taylor greene, tucker carlson, peddling the russian state line on this, the vast majority of republicans don't like vladimir putin. don't think that what he is doing is good. and trump's proximity to him i think is another problem. it is another sort of like, strike against him, another diminishing factor. >> right. absolutely. because you cannot help but root for the underdog here, root for the people who are just and instantly trying to live their lives, and are getting murdered. and donald trump does not see that. it is not just the pathological narcissism, it is sociopathic. he doesn't actually have any feeling for what is happening in ukraine. he could mouth the words, but you know, his affected just very shallow about. it he is just mouthing the words, yes it is a terrible thing that is happening in ukraine, and by the way let's get the files on hunter biden.
he just doesn't care. it is like his reaction if you ever saw the tape of when you are interviewing him on the morning of 9/11, he just immediately goes to, i now have the highest, the tallest building in lower manhattan! >> i want to talk about your piece, because i to thought the federal judges decision issued on monday was a huge deal. i think it has not quite -- i think people have not gotten their minds around it. obviously it is not like a credible finding, the judge is not saying that this is, you, know he is not exposing criminal liability. but why do you think it is important to have that decision in writing, by a sitting federal judge, who has reviewed some evidence and arguments from both sides? >> because i think it is crystallizing. and there is a simplicity to it that makes you understand why one of the many reasons why this should be illegal, and illegal at the level of where donald trump was behaving himself. and congressman schiff really said it aptly. this was the standard here for
this discovery, or the subpoenas here were basically whether or not the committee approved by over ponderous of evidence that there was a possible crime, that there was a crime -- to the attorney client work privilege applies. that is enough to win in a civil case, it is more than enough to start a criminal investigation. you know, it is more than probable cause, it is more than what any prosecutors rely on every day to crank out a grand jury seated. that is why it is significant. it is also significant because it is easy to understand. if you obstruct a proceeding, a government proceeding, that is illegal. if you do it corruptly, it is illegal. if you try to defraud the united states, there is 100 plus years of presidents, it doesn't involve money but all you have to do is use the seat,
trickery, misrepresentation, to hinder a lawful government function. that is what happened here as well. they were trying to get people in particular, mike pence, not to do the job that was required of them regarding the constitution, and the electoral count. >> george conway, as always, a pleasure. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> that is all in on this one, the rachel maddow show with ali velshi starts right now. chris good evening and thank you, we will see you tomorrow. thank you to you at home for joining us at this hour. rachel is on hiatus. i am joining you once again tonight from the city of lviv, ukraine. as the russian invasion grinds through its fifth week, this conflict does not seem to be moving in the way it was supposed to be. it seems at an inflection point. no one quite knows where it is on the other side of this moment.
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